PDA

View Full Version : DnD 3.5 Rope of Ogre Size



powerdemon
2009-09-08, 10:43 AM
I wanted to know if you guys think the cost on this custom belt seems appropriate.


Rope of Ogre Size
This belt doesn't look at all magical to the untrained eye. It appears to just be a rough hemp rope with a belt buckle except that it is much heavier than it looks like it should. When donned by a small or medium creature the wearer grows one size larger as the spell Enlarge Person. This item has no effect on a creature that is Large or larger, or tiny or smaller.

CL 3th; Craft Wondrous Item, Enlarge Person; Price 4,500gp; Weight 5 lb.

Yora
2009-09-08, 10:54 AM
It works essentially the same as a hat of disguise, just with enlarge person instead of disguise self as the spell.


Hat of Disguise: This apparently normal hat allows its wearer to alter her appearance as with a disguise self spell. As part of the disguise, the hat can be changed to appear as a comb, ribbon, headband, cap, coif, hood, helmet, and so on.

So by the official rules for magic item creation, it would be:

Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, enlarge person; Price 1,800 gp.

For a small character, the benefits and penalties are equal, with no total gain. As a medium character, you gain reach, which may be a bit cheesy für a 1,800 gm item.

Eloel
2009-09-08, 10:58 AM
Enlarge Person is 1 min/level, Disguise Self is 10 min/level - it should cost more. (similar argument with True Strike...)


So by the official rules for magic item creation, it would be:

Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp


# If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
1*1*2000*2 = 4000

It should really be higher, but that seems to be the cost (that still is an advice, and you have to go to DM for it's price)

powerdemon
2009-09-08, 10:59 AM
It works essentially the same as a hat of disguise, just with enlarge person instead of disguise self as the spell.



So by the official rules for magic item creation, it would be:

Well if I use the straight formula from the SRD: Spell level × caster level × 2,000gp (Then x2 because the spell is measured in minutes) would be 4000gp. This seems too low for how powerful this item could be.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 11:03 AM
Well if I use the straight formula from the SRD: Spell level × caster level × 2,000gp (Then x2 because the spell is measured in minutes) would be 4000gp. This seems too low for how powerful this item could be.
Not really. Consider that a large character takes a penalty to AC, to to-hit, and has to squeeze through certain areas. You're also a bigger target, are easier to flank, and if you use a reach weapon, have a big pocket of unthreatened space directly around you.

Eloel
2009-09-08, 11:05 AM
Well if I use the straight formula from the SRD: Spell level × caster level × 2,000gp (Then x2 because the spell is measured in minutes) would be 4000gp. This seems too low for how powerful this item could be.

A permanency'd one could be bought for;
1x10 + 9x50 + 5x500 = 2960 gold.
It'd be an easy subject to dispelling with permanency, so you need to ad-hoc a cost for non-dispelability.

Sallera
2009-09-08, 11:06 AM
You could also compare it to the Ring of Reduction, which is 20000. Given that your version is limited to medium or smaller humanoids, the original cost doesn't sound too far off.

Yora
2009-09-08, 11:06 AM
I'd say 4000 gp is reasonable.

But you can break the additional reach if you play at higher levels with lots of optimization. But for "normal games" with "normal players" and characters, it should be fine.

:smallwink:

powerdemon
2009-09-08, 11:08 AM
What do you think about 4,500gp as the cost? It's high enough to not make me feel guilty, and to consider the non-dispelability.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 11:08 AM
A permanency'd one could be bought for;
1x10 + 9x50 + 5x500 = 2960 gold.
It'd be an easy subject to dispelling with permanency, so you need to ad-hoc a cost for non-dispelability.

Magic items can be 'turned off' with a dispel magic, so it's not immune to dispelling.

powerdemon
2009-09-08, 11:09 AM
Magic items can be 'turned off' with a dispel magic, so it's not immune to dispelling.

But a dispelled item will eventually turn back on, but a permanency spell goes away altogether right?

Eloel
2009-09-08, 11:10 AM
Magic items can be 'turned off' with a dispel magic, so it's not immune to dispelling.

Turned off for 1d4 rounds != Gone forever

Starbuck_II
2009-09-08, 11:16 AM
Objection!
Disjunction begs to differ.

Cieyrin
2009-09-08, 11:17 AM
Also consider this will work on non-humanoids, so a Goliath or Half-Giant can run around as large creatures with Huge creature bonuses and weapons.

The magic item formula puts it at 4000 gp, which is the same level as +2 enhancement items. Enlarge gets you +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 Atk & AC, reach and +4 to most opposed combat actions. Seems to me that would warrant a price increase, especially since this will stack with Gauntlets of Ogre Power, since Enlarge provides a size bonus to Strength, not an enhancement bonus. I'd put it up around 5000-6000 gp, at least.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

EDIT:
Objection!
Disjunction begs to differ.

Disjunction is so far away at the point when you get one of these that I think it's rather a moot point. If wizards are gonna throw around Disjunctions, they probably got more expensive items to ruin than a belt that makes him bigger, like the armor he's wearing.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 11:19 AM
Turned off for 1d4 rounds != Gone forever

Your point being? He could instead drop that 4k on potions of enlarge person--80 of them, in fact, for one-minute duration potions--and do exactly the same thing as he would with a permanent belt. He could spend a fraction of that gold on a wand of enlarge person (fifty uses for 750 gp! A steal!) and get exactly the same effect. He could get a wizard friend to give him a heartening tap on the shoulder at the start of every battle and get exactly the same effect for free.

Sallera
2009-09-08, 11:23 AM
Well, almost exactly the same effect, since the item, being a permanent effect, doesn't require you to waste an action activating it. If you are going to allow it to affect non-humanoids, though, you may want to follow the Ring of Reduction's example. Maybe halve the cost for 10k, since being larger has more disadvantages than being smaller.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-08, 11:25 AM
Disjunction is so far away at the point when you get one of these that I think it's rather a moot point. If wizards are gonna throw around Disjunctions, they probably got more expensive items to ruin than a belt that makes him bigger, like the armor he's wearing.

There are CR 11 monsters can use it at will.
So CR 6-7 would be 1/dayusing monsters in theory.

J.Gellert
2009-09-08, 11:28 AM
I know I wouldn't fork 4k for this. Enlarge Person is already a debuff. If my wizard ally tells me he wants to cast it on me, I'll say "No, thank you, just cast magic missile already".

Long explanation: The penalties to AC hurt, especially against DMs who don't pull their punches. Sometimes you can be a frontliner that hits things, but more often you need to also be able to take hits yourself. As a fighter, you don't gang up on the monsters, they gang up on you.

Longer explanation: If you want to break stuff by using reach, be smart and use a reach weapon (googling makes me think that spiked chains are a d&d invention and who would be stupid enough to create a chain with spikes in the real world? No matter, it's there to be used). If this really is about higher levels of play, and obscure optimization, the cost doesn't matter because you can get far worse things by that point.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 11:31 AM
Well, almost exactly the same effect, since the item, being a permanent effect, doesn't require you to waste an action activating it.Fair enough. It's still not that big a deal.


If you are going to allow it to affect non-humanoids, though, you may want to follow the Ring of Reduction's example. Maybe halve the cost for 10k, since being larger has more disadvantages than being smaller.

Actually, since the listed effect is "as the spell enlarge person", it doesn't affect non-humanoid creatures at all. Which means it won't affect half-giants (as they're Giant type) or goliaths (as they're Monstrous Humanoids). And since the item explicitly doesn't affect anyone size Large or larger, it's incredibly limited in terms of "lol i r colozal" size jockeying cheese.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-08, 11:45 AM
I think the CL should be higher to start with since this is an always-on item and being large really benefits some characters.
The CL entry for items is not a prerequisite, it's simply the default CL for items found. The actual CL is determined by the item creator. If you want to make CL a prerequisite you have to add something like "caster must be at least 11th level" to the item prerequisites (like for instance Golems have). This is the exception, not the rule, though. Since the prerequisites are low level the default CL is not out of place, the price is high but generally these kind of items are commissioned.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with the guideline price, 4000 gp (but I do think players should have a limit on the total number of continuous spell effects they can have on themselves).

Draz74
2009-09-08, 11:50 AM
There are CR 11 monsters can use it at will.

Wait. Aren't these considered to be among the Top 5 Under-CR'ed Monsters Of All Time? Possibly even #1, surpassing That Damn Crab and the Planetar?

PinkysBrain
2009-09-08, 11:53 AM
Casters get metamagic rods ... don't begrudge a meleer a bloody enlarge person which is halfways affordable, this is so incredibly far removed from broken.

At 13k5 I wouldn't even buy this thing ... I'd rather set the money aside for a Skin of Proteus (<- now that's broken).

deuxhero
2009-09-08, 11:54 AM
Hmm, what is the spell level of the Giant Size spell?

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 11:58 AM
Hmm, what is the spell level of the Giant Size spell?

7 (Wu Jen); realistically, 9 [Miracle, Cleric]

powerdemon
2009-09-08, 12:13 PM
At 13k5 I wouldn't even buy this thing ... I'd rather set the money aside for a Skin of Proteus (<- now that's broken).

What do you think of 4,500gp?


By the way, thanks for all the great input. It's good to bounce around ideas :smallsmile:.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-08, 12:19 PM
Decent price ... as long as the abilities of a Belt of Giant Strength can be added to it in the future. Making say a melee character chose between a belt of giant strength or his enlarge person belt would be cruel.

powerdemon
2009-09-08, 12:22 PM
Decent price ... as long as the abilities of a Belt of Giant Strength can be added to it in the future. Making say a melee character chose between a belt of giant strength or his enlarge person belt would be cruel.

Well for 1.5x cost you can have them on the same belt :P.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-08, 01:21 PM
Usually only the cheapest part gets multiplied by 1.5.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-08, 01:49 PM
Wait. Aren't these considered to be among the Top 5 Under-CR'ed Monsters Of All Time? Possibly even #1, surpassing That Damn Crab and the Planetar?

I just said it can happen not that CR is ever done right.

powerdemon
2009-09-08, 02:09 PM
Usually only the cheapest part gets multiplied by 1.5.

It's whatever is the second part that is added. So if you want it to be cheaper, you get the most expensive part first.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-08, 02:59 PM
Well you can do it that way, but that way your players keep having to sell their old items to get new ones ... because it's simply not an option to get a 1.5x multiplier on 100K to combine it with an existing 1K item.

The MIC suggests doing it my way (page 233) ... if the new ability costs more than add 50% of the old crafting cost to the new one. It makes more sense IMO.

Hmm, you know what should exist? Item combiner boxes ... 2 items and expensive reagents go in, 1 item comes out.

ericgrau
2009-09-08, 05:41 PM
A hat of disguise is a utility item anyway, so economy of time isn't really a concern with it. Enlarge person, OTOH is another story; and I think that's why such an item doesn't already exist. I'd bump the price up a great deal to account for this. Maybe count it as a quickened enlarge person (which also doesn't consume a round). That'd be 9 x 5 x 2000gp = 90,000gp. That seems like a lot for a low character to spend, and it is, but the same is true of, say, items that grant flight. Or since it's always on consider the bonuses it gives: +5 to various special attacks, square that, and multiply it by some number that seems reasonable. This, like true strike, may be more appropriate since it's always on and it's quite a large bonus.

Or you need to consider how much a high level character would pay for it. Maybe that's less than 90k, but I bet a high level grappler or trip-monkey would find such a rope to be worth its hefty weight in gold, and would pay a lot more than 13k for it. Try to gauge how much it would take for a high level large size focused build (not just any Joe who might not have much use for large size) to pay a lot but still want it. That's the proper price for any magic item.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-08, 05:54 PM
A hat of disguise is a utility item anyway, so economy of time isn't really a concern with it. Enlarge person, OTOH is another story; and I think that's why such an item doesn't already exist. I'd bump the price up a great deal to account for this. Maybe count it as a quickened enlarge person (which also doesn't consume a round). That'd be 9 x 5 x 2000gp = 90,000gp. That seems like a lot for a low character to spend, and it is, but the same is true of, say, items that grant flight. Or since it's always on consider the bonuses it gives: +5 to various special attacks, square that, and multiply it by some number that seems reasonable. This, like true strike, may be more appropriate since it's always on and it's quite a large bonus.

Or you need to consider how much a high level character would pay for it. Maybe that's less than 90k, but I bet a high level grappler or trip-monkey would find such a rope to be worth its hefty weight in gold, and would pay a lot more than 13k for it. Try to gauge how much it would take for a high level large size focused build (not just any Joe who might not have much use for large size) to pay a lot but still want it. That's the proper price for any magic item.Except that it doesn't work for most of the Tripper or Grappler builds. The trippers snag it with +1 LA or Polymorph, the Grapplers have their own methods of size increase.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-08, 05:56 PM
Skin of Proteus

This psychoactive skin continually affects the wearer as the metamorphosis power. While in a form other than his natural form, the wearer does not appear to be wearing the skin.

Moderate psychometabolism; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, metamorphosis; Price 84,000 gp; Weight 2 lb.
That's an item worth 90K.

The "price should depend on usefulness" malarky from the DMG is BS. It's just about not giving non-caster's anything nice. No one in their right mind even buys the ring of invisibility, the example mentioned in the DMG. Invisibility is a low level spell with a decent duration, it's more economical to just buy potions!!!

If the power of the spell is proper for a 1st level spell with a duration of 1 minute per level it's proper for a 4K item. Comparing it to flight which is a 3rd level spell is just plain silly. All you do with overpricing this kind of stuff is drive people towards playing gishes.

ericgrau
2009-09-08, 05:59 PM
Except that it doesn't work for most of the Tripper or Grappler builds. The trippers snag it with +1 LA or Polymorph, the Grapplers have their own methods of size increase.

O yeah, friggin' half-giants messing it up for the poor PHB races. Okay depending on what books you allow you could bump the price down a bit. Polymorph still consumes a round though, and you'd need to beat a strength of 30 and/or get beyond large size to beat a non polymorphed creature. Even giants and dragons can't pull that off when their hit dice are limited to the party wizard's caster level.

And I never bought the "non-casters are worse than casters so let's give them as many strong things as they want for almost free" argument. So, instead of a wizard that can do anything and a melee guy who deals tons of damage and trip most things, you have a wizard that can do anything and a melee guy who one shots monsters, trips anything, etc. Basically makes anything he can affect boringly easy. But he STILL can't do everything so what he can't affect still screws him. Yeah, methinks things just got worse.

Comparing to existing items, pricing so that PCs will barely want it over other items, etc. is the best you can do. But if you want to rewrite the thousands of existing magic items b/c you think melee gets screwed, be my guest.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-08, 06:06 PM
O yeah, friggin' half-giants messing it up for the poor PHB races. Okay depending on what books you allow you could bump the price down a bit. Polymorph still consumes a round though, and you'd need to beat a strength of 30 and/or get beyond large size to beat a non polymorphed creature. Even giants and dragons can't pull that off when their hit dice are limited to the party wizard's caster level.There are basically 3 grappler builds:PsyWars, Clerics, and Druids. Each of them can get large or better size fairly easily, along with massive stat boosts, at little-to-no action cost.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-08, 06:10 PM
Comparing to existing items, pricing so that PCs will barely want it over other items, etc. is the best you can do.

Gonna be pretty cheap in that case. Enlarge person's a pretty cheap wand.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-08, 06:20 PM
Comparing to existing items, pricing so that PCs will barely want it over other items, etc. is the best you can do. But if you want to rewrite the thousands of existing magic items b/c you think melee gets screwed, be my guest.
Most items aren't priced by usefulness ... and the ones which are are simply not bought. There are enough items to buy which do have a fair price to bother with the ones priced by usefulness. The Skin of Proteus for instance which I already mentioned lets you walk around all day as a Large critter with base 25 strength and +10 NA, as well as any other valid polymorph critter with 7 HD or less. That's worth 90K, it's on the books for 90K. Good deal.

An item of continuous enlarge person? That's worth 4K.