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Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:44 PM
What's stopping a psion from using Body Fuel & a source of con healing (like, say a level of Binder and Naeberius) from never running out of power points?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-08, 12:45 PM
What's stopping a psion from using Body Fuel & a source of con healing (like, say a level of Binder and Naeberius) from never running out of power points?

The fact that Body Fuel causes stat BURN, not stat Damage, and cannot be recovered by magical means.


Ability Burn

This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers. It returns only through natural healing.

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:47 PM
The fact that Body Fuel causes stat BURN, not stat Damage, and cannot be recovered by magical means.

Iron Heart SURRRRRRRRRGE!



question mark?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-08, 12:48 PM
Iron Heart SURRRRRRRRRGE!



question mark?

Nope. Note the "It returns only through natural healing" clause. IHS is not natural healing, thus it doesn't work. Specific trumps general.

Fishy
2009-09-08, 12:50 PM
Iron Heart Surge away the condition of 'being out of power points'.

Faleldir
2009-09-08, 12:51 PM
What about Strongheart Vest?

Myou
2009-09-08, 12:53 PM
Iron Heart Surge away the condition of 'being out of power points'.

Watch the DM Iron Heart Surge you away from the group.

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 12:56 PM
Watch the DM Iron Heart Surge you away from the group.

Iron Heart Surge the DM away and take your rightful place on his throne.

Douglas
2009-09-08, 12:58 PM
Iron Heart Surge away the condition of 'being out of power points'.
Sorry, but condition (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm) has a precise well defined meaning in D&D 3.5 that could not possibly be interpreted to include that.

"Effect" is a bit fuzzier, but good luck convincing a DM that this qualifies.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 01:03 PM
The tone of the post leads me to believe he was joking.

Kylarra
2009-09-08, 01:04 PM
Iron Heart Surge away the condition of 'being out of power points'.You are now psychically reformed into metamind 10. :smallamused: enjoy.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-08, 01:09 PM
What's stopping a psion from using Body Fuel & a source of con healing (like, say a level of Binder and Naeberius) from never running out of power points?

Skip Naberius and use the Strongheart Vest and it'll work.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 01:14 PM
Skip Naberius and use the Strongheart Vest and it'll work.

No, it doesn't. Strongheart Vest repairs ability damage, not ability burn.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 01:16 PM
I believe the word used in the description is "prevents", not repair.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-08, 01:17 PM
No, it doesn't. Strongheart Vest repairs ability damage, not ability burn.

It doesn't repair anything. It just reduces the ability damage to 0 (which works since ability burn is specifically a type of ability damage with an altered recovery method).

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 01:18 PM
Well, then watch your DM burn your ability scores. With his DMG. :smallyuk:

Person_Man
2009-09-08, 01:30 PM
As a side note, I'd say that this thread is a good example of why all abilities should be continuous, at-will, per encounter, or per day. Having different a dozen or so different "fuel" source mechanics (class abilities, spells, psionics, incarnum, Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, etc) each with it's own re-fuel specifics and exceptions makes the game needlessly complex, and it makes any sort of global balance impossible. It's one of the few things 4E got right. (It's a shame that characters get so few powers, that powers have such thin fluff, and that most powers are boring and duplicative of other powers).

Anywho, try buying a Mindfeeder (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mindfeeder) weapon. Put it on a weapon with a high crit multiplier. Before combat have somebody Summon something. Boost the damage as much as possible. And viola, you get a large number of temporary power points for the next ten minutes, which you can re-fill infinite times per day (assuming you have a source of infinite summoning).

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 01:33 PM
Strongheart Vest wouldn't work, since if you don't actually take the ability burn, it doesn't get you pp.

Polymorphing probably wouldn't work, due to the "own body clause", too.

Any way to get temporary ability scores, like temp. hit points?


Anywho, try buying a Mindfeeder (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mindfeeder) weapon. Put it on a weapon with a high crit multiplier. Before combat have somebody Summon something. Boost the damage as much as possible. And viola, you get a large number of temporary power points for the next ten minutes, which you can re-fill infinite times per day (assuming you have a source of infinite summoning).

Hmm, nifty.

Tiktakkat
2009-09-08, 01:38 PM
You could always dual wield high crit + keen/improved crit mindfeeder weapons.
You need to be able to survive in melee, but with a 30% base chance of a crit wil 3 or 4 attacks, you should be able to keep yourself well supplied.
For the egregiously merciless, stack it with something that creates helpless targets, and alternate coup de graces with said effects, for continuous fun. Psychic crush works nicely for that. Psionic blast only creates stunned targets, but they conveniently stand still for you to keep trying.

Gah! Ninja'ed while confirming my terms!

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 01:41 PM
Anywho, try buying a Mindfeeder (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mindfeeder) weapon. Put it on a weapon with a high crit multiplier. Before combat have somebody Summon something. Boost the damage as much as possible. And viola, you get a large number of temporary power points for the next ten minutes, which you can re-fill infinite times per day (assuming you have a source of infinite summoning).

Did someone say reserve feat?

Yukitsu
2009-09-08, 01:47 PM
Don't you get more points offing an astral construct than it costs to make?

Temet Nosce
2009-09-08, 01:47 PM
Strongheart Vest wouldn't work, since if you don't actually take the ability burn, it doesn't get you pp.

Polymorphing probably wouldn't work, due to the "own body clause", too.

Any way to get temporary ability scores, like temp. hit points?

It should work by RAW. Consider, you activate the feat and take the damage/PP, but the damage is reduced to 0. The only way it wouldn't work is if the first action did not occur at all rather than the end result being different. It's a matter of action sequence.

Kyeudo
2009-09-08, 01:49 PM
Play a Warforged Ardent/Metamind, take Practiced Manifester as a feat, and take Temporal Reiteration as a power. Activate Font of Power, then spend the rest of your existance burning your swift actions on Temporal Reiteration. Walla, infinite power points RAW legal and only moderately weaker than a straight psion.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 09:24 AM
Any way to get temporary ability scores, like temp. hit points?

How about this?


Mitigate Suffering

Type: Reserve
Source: Complete Champion

You can temporarily relieve ability damage.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells.
Benefit: As long as you have any restoration spell or another conjuration (healing) spell that cures ability damage available to cast, you can confer temporary ability points on yourself or an ally. As a standard action, you can create 2 points + 1 point per level of the highest-level such spell you have available to cast.
These ability points can be applied to any single damaged ability, raising it to a maximum of its starting score. Temporary ability points granted in this way disappear after 10 minutes, returning the subject to its previous damaged state unless some other effect restores the lost ability points first. You can use this effect on the same individual as many times as you wish.
As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting conjuration (healing) spells.

Eloel
2009-09-09, 09:27 AM
That still fixes 'damaged' abilities. 'Burn' is different.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-09, 09:52 AM
Don't you get more points offing an astral construct than it costs to make?

1PP for 15PP. Downside? Construct-type is immune to mindfeeders.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-09, 10:20 AM
It should work by RAW. Consider, you activate the feat and take the damage/PP, but the damage is reduced to 0. No, you don't take the damage.
Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0. You don't take the damage, then have that damage fixed; instead, Strongheart Vest keeps the damage from ever happening. So you never meet the conditions to activate the Body Fuel feat.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-09, 10:39 AM
No, you don't take the damage. You don't take the damage, then have that damage fixed; instead, Strongheart Vest keeps the damage from ever happening. So you never meet the conditions to activate the Body Fuel feat.

That's irrelevant. The reduction doesn't apply until the feat is activated, at which point you already have the PP.

Eloel
2009-09-09, 10:50 AM
That's irrelevant. The reduction doesn't apply until the feat is activated, at which point you already have the PP.

Strongheart Vest is irrelevant because it applies to ability DAMAGE, instead of ability BURN.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-09, 10:54 AM
Strongheart Vest is irrelevant because it applies to ability DAMAGE, instead of ability BURN.

Psionic maladies in the SRD (or probably somewhere in the XPH, but the SRD is easier to access). Basically Ability Burn is a special form of ability damage (the only difference is it can only be recovered naturally).

ericgrau
2009-09-09, 10:54 AM
That still refers to ability damage not ability burn.

Eloel
2009-09-09, 10:55 AM
There, however, IS a pretty RAW way of endless power points that doesn't require high level.

2x 4th level Wilders with knowledge of Bestow Power, owning Torc of Power Preservation.

They manifest Bestow Power to 6th level augmentation, granting 4 PP to the other Wilder, while spending 3 PP (due to Wild Surge being free-PP, and Torc reducing by 1)

There's a 20% chance of losing 4PP. (So you lose, on average, 0.8PP/manifestation)
You end up with 1PP/5 manifestations on average. (0.2PP average)

It sure could be improved upon. (Enervation Endurance feat gives you 0.6PP average.)

lesser_minion
2009-09-09, 11:06 AM
Well, you'd be perfectly justified in calling the feat a single, continuous effect, so even if the Strongheart Vest did apply (not happening on my watch, and dubious by RAW), it would only work once, for 2 bonus PP. Any subsequent use of the feat is the same instance of Ability Burn as the first.

Unless something specifically says that it negates Ability Burn, it's not helping, even if it prevents ability damage and the description of Ability Burn says that it is a special case of ability damage. You're applying a rather shaky interpretation of RAW at the same level as "Vigilantes get 20 spells per day at 7th level".

Draz74
2009-09-09, 11:12 AM
There, however, IS a pretty RAW way of endless power points that doesn't require high level.

2x 4th level Wilders with knowledge of Bestow Power, owning Torc of Power Preservation.

Note that the XPH version of the Torc is officially replaced by the (lame) version in the Magic Item Compendium. Stealth-balance.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-09, 11:15 AM
Unless something specifically says that it negates Ability Burn, it's not helping, even if it prevents ability damage and the description of Ability Burn says that it is a special case of ability damage. Rules As Intended are perfectly admissible when they are that obvious (seriously, this is RAW on the level of Vigilantes getting 20 spells per day at 7th level and only 7th level), and Rules as Written, the item specifically refers to ability BURN.

I'm hardly suggesting using it in a game, but since the Op seemed to be looking for a way to use Body Fuel that way by RAW I provided him with one.

Lamech
2009-09-09, 12:05 PM
Earth power plus archaic initiate (psion entry), and bestow power. That means you save two power points. (One from earth power one from the surge.) So for the average recovery per round is .95 PP. When you get the second level of the surge I think it goes up to 1.8 PP a round.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 02:31 PM
So Mindfeeder + Summon Elemental Reserve feat is the best way to handle this?>

sofawall
2009-09-09, 03:00 PM
Strongheart Vest wouldn't work, since if you don't actually take the ability burn, it doesn't get you pp.

Polymorphing probably wouldn't work, due to the "own body clause", too.

Any way to get temporary ability scores, like temp. hit points?



Hmm, nifty.

I'm falling on the side of Strongheart Vest working, for this one. The fact that Hellfire Warlock is very specific about if it's prevented, but this is not, leads me to believe that it is not treated the same.

Go go Ability Burn!

Curmudgeon
2009-09-09, 03:57 PM
That's irrelevant. The reduction doesn't apply until the feat is activated, at which point you already have the PP. That doesn't make any sense. There is no "activation step" between recovering power points and taking abiilty burn damage.
You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Either both the burn damage and the power point recovery happen together, or nothing happens.

The only activation choice is to use the feat or not.

kme
2009-09-09, 04:09 PM
So Mindfeeder + Summon Elemental Reserve feat is the best way to handle this?>
Elementals are immune to criticals, but...
Human lvl 1 ranger/4 psion/2 psychic assassin/4 slayer (This is the time you can reasonably acquire mindfeeder scythe)

1: Go to town.
2: Find a random commoner.
3: ?????? Use death attack (paralyze option).
4: ?????? Coup de grace with mindfeeder scythe using maximum power attack.
5: Profit!!!

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-09, 04:23 PM
Bag of Tricks? More Bag of Tricks?

Bind Malphas and summon 1 raven every 5 rounds? EDIT: Oh, the raven summoning is at will, as a standard action. That makes it more appealing.

Person_Man
2009-09-09, 04:25 PM
So Mindfeeder + Summon Elemental Reserve feat is the best way to handle this?>

Nope. Elementals are immune to critical hits. Mindfeeder requires a critical hit to activate.

So the best thing I can think of is to carry a bag a chickens (or whatever) that are tied up and helpless. Before each combat you can Coup de Grace one, dealing an automatic critical hit, and gaining your Mindfeeder points (which is not limited by the hit points of the creature you crit).

EDIT: DAMN NINJAS!!! Also, I hadn't thought of Malphas. Good call Foryn. I wonder if there's a Binder/Psion combo out there somewhere, or if you just need one in your party.

quick_comment
2009-09-09, 04:29 PM
Chicken-infested flaw + mindfeeder

Jack_Simth
2009-09-09, 04:35 PM
As a side note, I'd say that this thread is a good example of why all abilities should be continuous, at-will, per encounter, or per day. Having different a dozen or so different "fuel" source mechanics (class abilities, spells, psionics, incarnum, Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, etc) each with it's own re-fuel specifics and exceptions makes the game needlessly complex, and it makes any sort of global balance impossible. It's one of the few things 4E got right. (It's a shame that characters get so few powers, that powers have such thin fluff, and that most powers are boring and duplicative of other powers).

Anywho, try buying a Mindfeeder (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mindfeeder) weapon. Put it on a weapon with a high crit multiplier. Before combat have somebody Summon something. Boost the damage as much as possible. And viola, you get a large number of temporary power points for the next ten minutes, which you can re-fill infinite times per day (assuming you have a source of infinite summoning).
Huh, that's odd. Comparing that entry to the one on d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#mindfeeder) finds a short-phrase discrepancy: "once per day" is on d20srd.org, but not on the dandwiki.com. Curious.

Let's see... the XPH doesn't include "once per day" ... ah, there we go, it's in the Errata for the XPH.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-09, 04:39 PM
That doesn't make any sense. There is no "activation step" between recovering power points and taking abiilty burn damage.

I never implied those two didn't happen together. When the feat is activated, it occurs regardless of how the results are modified through interaction with other things, whether the damage is reduced or not has no effect on the rest of the activation (the PP recovery).

It's simple enough. The vest can't reduce damage till it's applied, thus you must activate the feat for the reduction to apply in the first place at which point you already have the PP. The reduction does not retroactively stop the activation.

Person_Man
2009-09-09, 04:43 PM
Huh, that's odd. Comparing that entry to the one on d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#mindfeeder) finds a short-phrase discrepancy: "once per day" is on d20srd.org, but not on the dandwiki.com. Curious.

Let's see... the XPH doesn't include "once per day" ... ah, there we go, it's in the Errata for the XPH.

Wow, once per day. That sucks for a +3 weapon. Not that unlimited power points is balanced. But assuming you played it honestly for fear of DM retribution, it should be better then that. Maybe they should remove the 10 minute restriction, or make it on every critical hit but create a maximum number of power points you can steal. Oh well.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-09, 04:48 PM
Well, you could interpret things that way. Activating the feat gives you two distinct & independent effects - "more power points" and "ability burn". Negating the latter would not negate the former. However, given that said interpretation gives you infinite power points and is fairly game-breaking, there's very good reason to disregard the interpretation, no matter how close it may follow the exact wording.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-09, 04:54 PM
When the feat is activated, it occurs regardless of how the results are modified through interaction with other things, whether the damage is reduced or not has no effect on the rest of the activation (the PP recovery).
No, that's not what the feat says. It says you recover the power points by taking the burn damage. Since Strongheart Vest prevents the burn damage, you never recover the power points. The feat can't do anything because you can't satisfy its stated conditions.

Jack_Simth
2009-09-09, 04:55 PM
Wow, once per day. That sucks for a +3 weapon. Not that unlimited power points is balanced. But assuming you played it honestly for fear of DM retribution, it should be better then that. Maybe they should remove the 10 minute restriction, or make it on every critical hit but create a maximum number of power points you can steal. Oh well.
Or make it a +1 equivalent or some such, yeah. It's pretty much been nerfed into the ground. I wondered why it seemed like a useless weapon ability when I first encountered it.

Still, with a proper Summon and a Scythe, you could get most of your all-day buffs out of the way with that method (a +1 Mindfeeding Scythe costs something like 32,318 gp, and a Coup De Grace on a summon will net you 8d4+4+4*(Strength Mod*1.5) power points to burn. With a +0 Strength modifier, that's an average of 24 power points. A 9th level Pearl of Power gives 17 power points per day (under transparency) and costs 81k. So it's still abusable, just not infinitely so.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-09, 05:10 PM
No, that's not what the feat says. It says you recover the power points by taking the burn damage. Since Strongheart Vest prevents the burn damage, you never recover the power points. The feat can't do anything because you can't satisfy its stated conditions.

The vest does not prevent the activation of the feat in the first place, it just alters the outcome. The vest cannot reduce damage when there's no damage to reduce, ergo the feat must be used before reduction applies.

There is nothing indicating that reduction of the damage prevents the activation of the feat, or that the PP would be retroactively removed.

Yzzyx
2009-09-09, 05:39 PM
You don't gain power points equal to the ability burn you take. You take points of ability burn equal to the power points you gain.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-09, 05:47 PM
The vest does not prevent the activation of the feat in the first place, it just alters the outcome. The vest cannot reduce damage when there's no damage to reduce, ergo the feat must be used before reduction applies.

There is nothing indicating that reduction of the damage prevents the activation of the feat
Activation of the feat is by character choice (since it's stated as "You can"), so that's correct.

, or that the PP would be retroactively removed.
That's where you're wrong. There's no retroactive removal, because the feat provides for power point recovery by (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/by) taking the damage. They're concurrent. Prevent taking the damage, and you prevent power point recovery that is a result of taking that damage. That's what by means: "in consequence, as a result". If you don't meet the conditions in the benefit statement of the feat, the feat does nothing. You decide to use it, then you get power point recovery when you incur burn damage. Prevent the burn damage, and there's no benefit.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-09, 06:02 PM
Activation of the feat is by character choice (since it's stated as "You can"), so that's correct.

That's where you're wrong. There's no retroactive removal, because the feat provides for power point recovery by (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/by) taking the damage. They're concurrent. Prevent taking the damage, and you prevent power point recovery that is a result of taking that damage. That's what by means: "in consequence, as a result". If you don't meet the conditions in the benefit statement of the feat, the feat does nothing. You decide to use it, then you get power point recovery when you incur burn damage. Prevent the burn damage, and there's no benefit.

Once again, you're acting as though the vest somehow prevents activation in the first place. You took the damage, but it was reduced. The fact that it was reduced to 0 is completely irrelevant. Both the damage and PP occurred, however so did the reduction. The fact that the reduction occurred does not in any way, shape, or form affect anything else.

The vest does not prevent anything, it just reduces ability damage. It does not prevent the use of the feat.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-09, 06:13 PM
Didn't Sage already rule preventing damage like the Vest stops ot from benefiting you?

Temet Nosce
2009-09-09, 06:15 PM
Didn't Sage already rule preventing damage like the Vest stops ot from benefiting you?

No idea, but we're talking RAW not RAI (I tend not to argue RAI).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 07:24 PM
Didn't Sage already rule preventing damage like the Vest stops ot from benefiting you?

The Sage is... ... ... yeah.

quick_comment
2009-09-09, 07:30 PM
No idea, but we're talking RAW not RAI (I tend not to argue RAI).

The point is that the pp you get is based on the damage you take, not the damage you would have taken. The feat doesnt care how much damage you tried to take, only about how much you actually take.

Lochar
2009-09-09, 08:05 PM
Note that the XPH version of the Torc is officially replaced by the (lame) version in the Magic Item Compendium. Stealth-balance.

Doesn't really matter. Three psions with Bestow Power under an Affinity Field works just as well, if not better.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-09, 08:08 PM
The point is that the pp you get is based on the damage you take, not the damage you would have taken. The feat doesnt care how much damage you tried to take, only about how much you actually take.

RAW, not RAI. It might be obvious that the intention is that way, but I won't argue RAI on this (or much else).

Also, the vest does not prevent anything, it reduces damage.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-09, 08:10 PM
People, you are forgetting the difference between damage dealt and damage taken.

Damage dealt = the initial damage of an effect before modifiers.
Damage taken = the final damage after modifiers.


If an effect relies on damage taken, then reducing the ability damage will also reduce the benefit.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-10, 05:29 PM
Chicken-infested flaw + mindfeeder

+ Warmind5 (since we're using Psionics anyways) + Great Cleave = infinite PP every round

Also, Ability Damage /= Ability Burn. You cannot use a Strongheart Vest to mitigate Ability Burn. Morbo says it not work that way.

Yzzyx
2009-09-10, 06:45 PM
Also, Ability Damage /= Ability Burn. You cannot use a Strongheart Vest to mitigate Ability Burn. Morbo says it not work that way.


Ability Burn
This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers.


It's pretty clearly a special form of ability damage. Or are you arguing that, by default, things that work on ability damage don't work on special forms of ability damage?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-10, 07:40 PM
It's pretty clearly a special form of ability damage. Or are you arguing that, by default, things that work on ability damage don't work on special forms of ability damage?

I am differentiating between Ability Damage and Ability Burn. The latter is a subset of the former which is not subject to all of the mitigating factors of the larger subset.

Because it is not Ability Damage, specifically, but merely a type of a general ability damage set, things which mitigate Ability Damage do not mitigate it, because they do not mention Ability Burn.

Furthermore, as you cannot heal Ability Burn with magic, you cannot use a Strongheart Vest on it, because it is a form of magic.

Yzzyx
2009-09-10, 08:34 PM
I am differentiating between Ability Damage and Ability Burn. The latter is a subset of the former which is not subject to all of the mitigating factors of the larger subset.

Because it is not Ability Damage, specifically, but merely a type of a general ability damage set, things which mitigate Ability Damage do not mitigate it, because they do not mention Ability Burn.

Furthermore, as you cannot heal Ability Burn with magic, you cannot use a Strongheart Vest on it, because it is a form of magic.

I'll argue the second point first. Here are a few relevent facts:

1. Ability Burn cannot be magically healed.
2. The Strongheart Vest soulmeld is magical.
3. The Strongheart Vest soulmeld reduces ability damage that you take.

As a result of facts one and two, the Strongheart Vest soulmeld cannot heal Ability Burn. However, as the third fact makes clear, it doesn't. Reducing damage is not the same as healing it, to my knowledge. Damage Reduction still works on a Clay Golem's Cursed Wound, right?



Now the the first point. The Strongheart Vest soulmeld reduces Ability Damage by one point, to a minimum of zero. This is hard to deny. Ability Burn is a specific type of Ability Damage. I quoted the SRD above on this ("special form," I think they said). The SRD says the following on Ability Damage:


Ability Damaged
The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage.

All it says about Ability Burn is that it's a special form of Ability Damage that cannot be healed by magic or psionics. For Ability Burn to do anything, you have to assume that it is like Ability Damage unless otherwise noted. You temporarily lose 1 or more ability score points, and these point return by default at a rate of 1 per day. With your assumption, you wouldn't need a specific note that Ability Burn cannot be magically healed, because all the things that say they "heal ability damage" make no mention of Ability Burn. As a specific type of ability damage, anything that works on ability damage must be assumed to work on it, unless otherwise noted.

Gralamin
2009-09-10, 09:50 PM
I am differentiating between Ability Damage and Ability Burn. The latter is a subset of the former which is not subject to all of the mitigating factors of the larger subset.

Because it is not Ability Damage, specifically, but merely a type of a general ability damage set, things which mitigate Ability Damage do not mitigate it, because they do not mention Ability Burn.

Furthermore, as you cannot heal Ability Burn with magic, you cannot use a Strongheart Vest on it, because it is a form of magic.

Say S is a set defined to include all forms of Ability Damage. Say s is a set defined to include only Ability burn, such that s is a proper subset of S.

s (which remember, is Ability Burn) is defined as "Damage which cannot be healed through psionic and magical means."

Remember Reduction is not healing in D&D.

Now, if we have an ability that functions on set S, then set s is automatically included because its a subset of set S. However, if the ability is magical or psionic healing to ability damage, set s is automatically immune due to its properties / definition. Its definition does not stop reduction though, so Reduction of set S effects subset s.

Another way to look at this:
You have a class known as Ability damage.
Ability Damage has various properties.
There is a function that looks like:

AbilityDamage strongheartVest_Reduce(AbilityDamage A)
{
return A--;
}

Ability Burn is defined as a class that inherits from Superclass Ability Damage. It has all of the properties of Ability Damage, but has its own special property (Cannot be magically or psionically healed).

Since AbilityDamage is the Superclass of AbilityBurn, you may pass AbilityBurn to functions requiring AbilityDamage. The Functions healing AbilityDamage will have to add a check for AbilityBurn (IE: Can it be magically or psionically healed), but otherwise they function identically.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-10, 11:03 PM
It would depend on how you interpret the command, if you are calling the set S or if you are calling the specific subset s which happens to have the same name as the set S. Both variables may have the exact same name, and yet be two completely separate entities which do not necessarily interact with one another.

My posit is that the Ability Damage which is mentioned in Strongheart Vest is the 'prime example' of the set S 'ability damage'. Ability Burn is a separate subset of the set. When you call the specific subset Ability Damage, you do not also call the subset Ability Burn.

Bugbeartrap
2009-09-11, 12:36 AM
Yzzyx... Thank you. I was starting to lose all hope for humanity.

I believe certain people are confusing Ability Burn with the Hellfire Warlock's Con draining ability (probably due to both using Strongheart Vest as a combo). The hellfire warlock has a specific clause about being immune from con damage, preventing the ability. Now, the XPH has no such clause. Only that the subject be "living". Therefore, the ability would activate, and the vest would reduce the damage to zero.

In conclusion, though it be gamebreaking, is that the soulmeld would prevent any ability damage while still providing its benefits.

Kylarra
2009-09-11, 12:41 AM
Yzzyx... Thank you. I was starting to lose all hope for humanity.

I believe certain people are confusing Ability Burn with the Hellfire Warlock's Con draining ability (probably due to both using Strongheart Vest as a combo). The hellfire warlock has a specific clause about being immune from con damage, preventing the ability. Now, the XPH has no such clause. Only that the subject be "living". Therefore, the ability would activate, and the vest would reduce the damage to zero.

In conclusion, though it be gamebreaking, is that the soulmeld would prevent any ability damage while still providing its benefits.But would it prevent the 1D3 damage from being hit with a book? :smallbiggrin:

Tokiko Mima
2009-09-11, 06:51 AM
Here's a different way of looking at it:

If the feat said you took 2 burn damage and received 2 power points, but someone wore the Strongheart Vest and reduced the burn damage to 1, would the feat still work? It is burning abilities now like it should, but the Vest has altered the conversion ratio.