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Primal Fury
2009-09-08, 12:52 PM
Everytime Clerics, Wizards, and Druids are brought, the tier system is mentioned. I am familiar with this system and the position of a few classes in said system, but what I'd like to know is where the Shadow Caster (from the Tome of Magic) stands in all of this since they don't seemed to be mentioned very often anymore.

Yukitsu
2009-09-08, 12:55 PM
About fourth. They just don't have enough uses of their abilities, nor enough diversity from their abilities to last a day effectively. (and I'm using the errata put out by the author, rather than the WoTC version.)

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 12:58 PM
Tier 2 without amendment. They're a full caster with fewer spells per day, and are capable of being part of a Double-Nines casting suite (Wiz 3/Shd 3/Noctumancer 10/MT 4). They also get some rather potent mysteries (echo spell, warp spell, shadow time, umbral body, flicker...). Their biggest issue is that they get so few mysteries per day.

My favorite method of amendment is to give them a refresh mechanic a la ToB (spend a full round action to recover all spells cast from one path).

Primal Fury
2009-09-08, 01:03 PM
My favorite method of amendment is to give them a refresh mechanic a la ToB (spend a full round action to recover all spells cast from one path).

This? This right here? It's mine now. :smallamused:

peacenlove
2009-09-08, 02:19 PM
My favorite method of amendment is to give them a refresh mechanic a la ToB (spend a full round action to recover all spells cast from one path).

Brilliant Idea!! Sounds simple yet effective. :xykon:
IMO Without fixes and by Raw they are low tier 2 or high tier 3.
If you rule that they are spontaneous arcane casters (they come close to that model actually, and i prefer them from the sorcerer casting mechanic) and that their metashadow feats actually count as metamagic, then they get bumped to high tier 2.
Really the only thing they want is either more uses of mysteries or more uses of metashadow feats, MOAR, MUCH MORE !! mysteries, and the removal of their crippling restrictions and incomparabilities with other classes.


About fourth. They just don't have enough uses of their abilities, nor enough diversity from their abilities to last a day effectively. (and I'm using the errata put out by the author, rather than the WoTC version.)

A class with timestop and a no save mass spell that reduces dexterity by 6 in a 20 foot radius at medium range (twinned = 12, quickened = 18 in one round, Its maximized shivering touch on crack, 2 times via favored mystery. if you feel utterly cruel get favored mystery twice, bye bye SR!) and contigency (via gr. shadow evocation) is tier 4? And for the mooks there's always reach umbral touch with a DC for slow that scales with your HD (+2 with a veil costing 14k gold).

Yora
2009-09-08, 02:39 PM
I just checked it. If you count cantrips and fundamentals, sorcerers and shadowcasters get about the same number of spells per day. At least until 10th level.
Though the shadowcaster has a much more limited number of spells known, can not use his "slots" as he needs on the fly, and has a much more limited spell list.

peacenlove
2009-09-08, 03:04 PM
...They're a full caster with fewer spells per day, and are capable of being part of a Double-Nines casting suite (Wiz 3/Shd 3/Noctumancer 10/MT 4). ...

That caught my attention rather late. Mystic theurge needs cleric/shadowcaster to qualify, not wizard / shadowcaster. Also warp spell is weak (-4 on checks due to the aforementioned "unnecessary restrictions") unless you also gain the practiced shadowcaster feat (which you would obviously model it after the Practiced spellcaster feat).

Primal Fury
2009-09-08, 03:05 PM
MOAR, MUCH MORE !!

NEVAR ENUFF DAKKA MYSTERIES!!!

Incidentally peacenlove, I see by your sig that you've made quite a few changes to the Shadow Caster yourself. Do you have any other suggestions that might fix it's "crippling restrictions and incomparabilities with other classes"?

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 03:10 PM
That caught my attention rather late. Mystic theurge needs cleric/shadowcaster to qualify, not wizard / shadowcaster. Also warp spell is weak (-4 on checks due to the aforementioned "unnecessary restrictions") unless you also gain the practiced shadowcaster feat (which you would obviously model it after the Practiced spellcaster feat).

It is right in the description of Shadowcasters that they can qualify for either side of the Mystic Theurge. Check the start of the prestige class section.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-08, 03:15 PM
It is right in the description of Shadowcasters that they can qualify for either side of the Mystic Theurge. Check the start of the prestige class section.

Wow, I never noticed that. Thanks for pointing that out; I just got a new BBEG idea.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 03:18 PM
Wow, I never noticed that. Thanks for pointing that out; I just got a new BBEG idea.

I'm rather a fan of Shadowcaster/Cleric of Shar/Mystic Theurge for BBEGs, myself. It's thematically apt, if nothing else.

peacenlove
2009-09-08, 03:25 PM
NEVAR ENUFF DAKKA MYSTERIES!!!

Incidentally peacenlove, I see by your sig that you've made quite a few changes to the Shadow Caster yourself. Do you have any other suggestions that might fix it's "crippling restrictions and incomparabilities with other classes"?

Simple, "dirty" fix: treat it as a unspecified spontaneous caster (opening the way for runestaves (+5 mysteries! No need to follow the paths!!), knowstones (extra mysteries AND uses, i usually price them 50% more due to that fact), Versatile spell caster and other useful feats). Also Realms Of Chaos presents feats in his project that treated the shadow caster as an arcane caster, thus opening more options for prestige classes and feats. I will playtest some changes to drop the last barrier, metashadow feats on my next campaign, although i am pleased with the Metashadow mastery feat from Realms of Chaos work. As for mysteries i found out that if he gains 2 at even levels and 1 at odd, then he doesn't need extra spells from charisma up to 18th level.
Unfortunately at 19th and 20th levels the shadowcaster lags behind badly because a sorcerer will buy a +5 charisma tome and will put his last point into charisma.
Finally my work was for pathfinder, i will soon repost it under 3.5 edition rules (adding some stuff).

Fax Celestis i just gained a rank on Knowledge (shadowcasters) thanks to you :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh and btw give him listen and bluff as class skills. They scream shadowcaster all over the place :smallfurious:
EDIT2: Of course if you give him 3 mysteries per 2 levels you should give him 1 feat per 3 paths started and you must have 3 mysteries of 1st level in order to advance to 2nd (and so on). Also if you chose the same mystery twice it counts as 2 mysteries and you can select a higher level mystery.
THE EDITING DOESN'T STOP :smallsigh:: Remodel metamagic feats as the equivalent metashadow ones. The formula is easy, and the creator of the class himself proposed it in the enworld thread. Beware of 2 feats: Echoing spell (heavy rules conflict with your supernatural mysteries), and Persistent Spell (obscenely overpowered again with your undispellable supernatural abilities such as flicker, shadow skin and/or umbral touch).

Yukitsu
2009-09-08, 05:26 PM
A class with timestop and a no save mass spell that reduces dexterity by 6 in a 20 foot radius at medium range (twinned = 12, quickened = 18 in one round, Its maximized shivering touch on crack, 2 times via favored mystery. if you feel utterly cruel get favored mystery twice, bye bye SR!) and contigency (via gr. shadow evocation) is tier 4? And for the mooks there's always reach umbral touch with a DC for slow that scales with your HD (+2 with a veil costing 14k gold).

Limited useages with time stop though. I tend to use it rather more often than once per day. In fact, one of the things about my primary casters at tier one and two is that I utterly must have hours duration or ten minutes duration buff spells spammed on me, using the rest for offense. I can't get that defense from a shadow caster, and I run out of my really good tricks after one or two encounters. Especially as I tend to go all out fairly early on in encounters, and because the DM uses ECL + 8 as a good baseline for encounters.

Besides, I can get all those things with a bard, and they're tier three. :smalltongue:

Primal Fury
2009-09-08, 06:23 PM
I can't get that defense from a shadow caster, and I run out of my really good tricks after one or two encounters. Especially as I tend to go all out fairly early on in encounters, and because the DM uses ECL + 8 as a good baseline for encounters.


Well this sounds more like a situation where the problem isn't the class itself, but the player. :smalltongue: And going all out with spellcasters always seemed like a big "no-no" to me. If I was using a wizard or sorcerer, I'd pick up as many reserve feats as possible, and only use the actual spells when I needed them.

Also, would raising the Shadow Casters skill points to 4+Int be too much? It's the whole MAD that doesn't sit well with me.

Yukitsu
2009-09-08, 07:10 PM
Well this sounds more like a situation where the problem isn't the class itself, but the player. :smalltongue: And going all out with spellcasters always seemed like a big "no-no" to me. If I was using a wizard or sorcerer, I'd pick up as many reserve feats as possible, and only use the actual spells when I needed them.

Also, would raising the Shadow Casters skill points to 4+Int be too much? It's the whole MAD that doesn't sit well with me.

I don't have that problem with normal casters. Just shadow casters, because their spells don't apply to all situations, and run out faster.

With shadow casters, it isn't so much that I actually completely run out. I just run out of that one mystery that I absolutely need more than once per day. To compare, I go into a level 5 dungeon with web prepared about 3 times with my wizards, because web is one of the games most useful spells in a cramped dungeon. A level 5 shadow caster equivalent ability, clinging shadow, can only be used once. My other mysteries are likely ones chosen for different combat situations. For instance, I switc to glitterdust above ground with my wizards. Wizard of the sun and moon is actually one of my more common variants.

While I do take grease, a wizard doesn't have to prepare a grease and acid arrow to have web either, which a shadow caster does (sort of).

Primal Fury
2009-09-08, 07:36 PM
Yes, you don't get to use your favorite stuff very often (and I guess the whole spell caster thing is just a difference in our playstyles) I'll give you that much. But that's only true if you don't tweak anything. Sometimes it's hard as crap to play a session without houseruling something (i.e. toning down druid cheese to stop them from overshadowing other characters, and lowering the over-all suck level of the monk). And with that whole "refresh mechanic" added to them, any given Shadow Caster might be able to cast Clinging Shadows more often than his Wizard buddy casts Web... in theory.

peacenlove
2009-09-09, 12:31 AM
Also, would raising the Shadow Casters skill points to 4+Int be too much? It's the whole MAD that doesn't sit well with me.

No. I didn't do it on my Pathfinder version only because the scout skills are merged. In 3.5 though you can do it without a problem. I also have homebrewed a feat on my gaming table that lets scout skills (hide move silently spot search and listen) to be based on charisma rather than wisdom or dexterity.



While I do take grease, a wizard doesn't have to prepare a grease and acid arrow to have web either, which a shadow caster does (sort of).

This. This was my biggest complain from day 1. Don't get me wrong, i like paths because the mysteries are thematically unified, and, as i said before, with runestaves you can get over it (also with staves you can get around the few usages of mysteries).
But you don't get REWARDED for having completed the path AS A CLASS FEATURE. Fluff-wise you don't reach "to the end of it" (meaning you don't get something special, you are just like every other caster who selected a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spell), and power wise, you are actually hindered because of your lack of versatility.

Primal Fury
2009-09-09, 08:55 AM
But you don't get REWARDED for having completed the path AS A CLASS FEATURE. Fluff-wise you don't reach "to the end of it" (meaning you don't get something special, you are just like every other caster who selected a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spell), and power wise, you are actually hindered because of your lack of versatility.

...That's it? That seems like an incredibly problem to remedy. Take that one initiate path that RoC made, sumthin bout primal darkness I think. Once you finish it BOOM! Lycanthropy. Or... Time based path and BOOM! You can use haste and/or slow as a spell-like ability. Seems rather simple to me. :smallwink:

peacenlove
2009-09-09, 09:20 AM
...That's it? That seems like an incredibly problem to remedy. Take that one initiate path that RoC made, sumthin bout primal darkness I think. Once you finish it BOOM! Lycanthropy. Or... Time based path and BOOM! You can use haste and/or slow as a spell-like ability. Seems rather simple to me. :smallwink:

Check my class again :smallbiggrin: RoC made the big steps for it (path mastery feats) and i adapted them to my class (made them class abilities rather than feats, added the 30 Path masteries that were missing and reformatted so that they are selectable abilities rather than feats). The new path mastery feats are on my sig. I have playtested it (and RoC's material in general) for over 1,5 years, my (ours really cause everyone on my group contributed to this, they just don't have accounts here) fix is very popular in our gaming group and it will be used again in my new campaign.
Lastly when my exams end i will present my work about expanding the shadowcaster in an extremely good or evil enviroment. But i will need help with balancing (few in this site actually know of shadow magic and my previous dm, very good at balancing things, is at the army :smallfrown:)

Well aside the long advertisement, what i wanted to say is that people see the shadow caster and believe that he shouldn't be seen only as a full caster. That was the initial mistake with the class.
I believe that he should have some strong but extremely limited magic (mysteries) and some passive or frequently used miscellaneous abilities (end of a path abilities) so that the player constantly contributes to the party (whether it is scouting and information gathering, party face or disrupting enemies so that the damage dealers/battlefield controllers do their job easily). A mix of Warlock/Sorcerer if you like only with less spells known and cast and without the UMD abilities of the warlock.

Primal Fury
2009-09-09, 01:11 PM
I gotta say peacenlove, I like almost all of those... except for Nightmare Beast. I say that because it doesn't seem all that useful to the shadow caster. Also because they can get close to the same bonus with a mystery in that path already. It just doesn't feel like an appropriate (for lack of a better term) "capstone" to Midnight Savagery.

On a lighter note, I found a post by tyckspoon that suggested making the shadow casters mysteries encounter abilities rather than per day abilities (you know, like the maneuvers from ToB).

Yukitsu
2009-09-09, 01:16 PM
I wouldn't make it that easy to use. You'd basically start heading down the path of an arcane swordsage, which is pretty wildly accepted as a bad idea.

I'd just add that they can swap mysteries every morning, that they get bonus mysteries based on charisma (an additional use of each, but increase the required stat by 6.) Better represents that shadow is black and white (either you get a ton more, or no more at all) and that shadow is something that shifts and twists.

Primal Fury
2009-09-09, 01:33 PM
I wouldn't make it that easy to use. You'd basically start heading down the path of an arcane swordsage, which is pretty wildly accepted as a bad idea.

I see nothing wrong with that... Especially since, even at 20th level, any given shadow caster is gonna be casting... Shadow Time once a day, while his Wizard/Sorcerer buddy can cast the nearly identical spell, Time Stop, alot more often. Granted this isn't accounting for increases in mysteries per day, but their arcane counterparts would still probably come out on top.

Yukitsu
2009-09-09, 01:37 PM
What? With mysteries as manuevers, you could time stop, regain, time stop, regain etc. in a single combat. You'd basically get unlimited useages.

Even without a regain method, 4-12 time stops in a day, and 4-12 whatever other ninth you use to end encounters, you're still getting 8-24 slightly up-powered 9th level spells.

Primal Fury
2009-09-09, 01:47 PM
What? With mysteries as manuevers, you could time stop, regain, time stop, regain etc. in a single combat. You'd basically get unlimited useages.

Well I was speaking more along the lines of encounter mysteries without the ability to regain them. :smallredface:


Even without a regain method, 4-12 time stops in a day, and 4-12 whatever other ninth you use to end encounters, you're still getting 8-24 slightly up-powered 9th level spells.

And therein lies the big problem. You're either using your good stuff once a day and that's it. Or your using your good stuff 4 to 12 times a day. Where's the middle ground?

Yukitsu
2009-09-09, 01:49 PM
Well I was speaking more along the lines of encounter mysteries without the ability to regain them. :smallredface:

And therein lies the big problem. You're either using your good stuff once a day and that's it. Or your using your good stuff 4 to 12 times a day. Where's the middle ground?

My suggestion means a shadow caster with the charisma 34 can use it 2-4 times per day... It's pretty easy to know 2 9ths by 18, so you'd get 4-8, which is where I'd like to see it.

peacenlove
2009-09-09, 04:39 PM
Mysteries per encounter? Ugh no! just imagine the dominate monster mystery refreshable :smallmad:
As for the Nightmare beast i am open to suggestions (as well as any other work of mine :smallbiggrin: )


I see nothing wrong with that... Especially since, even at 20th level, any given shadow caster is gonna be casting... Shadow Time once a day, while his Wizard/Sorcerer buddy can cast the nearly identical spell, Time Stop, alot more often. Granted this isn't accounting for increases in mysteries per day, but their arcane counterparts would still probably come out on top.

First of all its impossible to match the wizard in power and versatility with the shadowcaster. I didn't even try to reach this goal.

But if you upgrade the master mysteries into spell like abilities at 19th level and rule that a shadowcaster gains 1.5 mysteries per level then you have 12 master mysteries at 20th level, each castable twice per day. Due to the restrictive nature of the paths you can either have 2 full paths each castable 4 / day or 4 paths each castable 2 / day.
(you could also reselect your only 9th level mystery 5 more times but that's practically unrealistic since you would know ONLY one lvl 8th or 9th mystery)
Note that a sorcerer with 34 charisma and the spell casting prodigy feat matches this modified shadowcaster in uses per day (at least to spell slots from 7th to 9th level). Also you trade spell like ability casting (essentially free silent/still) for slightly less known mysteries (or severely less if you choose to have more uses of your favorite mystery BUT that isn't needed if you go by 4 paths known and buy a runestaff with your favorite mystery 3/day). Note that i didn't use charisma for the shadow caster. He is mad anyway so he wouldn't have the charisma of a sorcerer.
This is VERY close to sorcerer power, lacking however in versatility. Still its a big improvement over the base with only 2 changes.


My suggestion means a shadow caster with the charisma 34 can use it 2-4 times per day... It's pretty easy to know 2 9ths by 18, so you'd get 4-8, which is where I'd like to see it.

I hope you are happy now :smallbiggrin:

Yora
2009-09-14, 03:47 PM
I just got an idea:

What about making shadowcasters a psionic class?

I really love the fluff and all, but the mechanic of learning spells and how much you can cast seems kinda odd to me and made complicated just for the sake of being different.

All the class features could stay unchanged, as would be the mystery paths and fundamental mysteries. Just change the spellcasting to a psions power progression, but give them only one new power at each level.
You'd just have to add augmentation options to all mysteries, but I think there's a list of most common augmentations and their additional power point costs.

Jalor
2009-09-14, 04:07 PM
Not really. I've always felt that the whole point of the class (ToM in general really) is that it's neither arcane, divine, psionic, martial, or Incarnum.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-14, 04:16 PM
I just got an idea:

What about making shadowcasters a psionic class?

I really love the fluff and all, but the mechanic of learning spells and how much you can cast seems kinda odd to me and made complicated just for the sake of being different.

All the class features could stay unchanged, as would be the mystery paths and fundamental mysteries. Just change the spellcasting to a psions power progression, but give them only one new power at each level.
You'd just have to add augmentation options to all mysteries, but I think there's a list of most common augmentations and their additional power point costs.

It would help uses/day at least.

But what about the supernatural, etc changes? Is that gone?

peacenlove
2009-09-14, 06:19 PM
I just got an idea:

What about making shadowcasters a psionic class?

I really love the fluff and all, but the mechanic of learning spells and how much you can cast seems kinda odd to me and made complicated just for the sake of being different.

All the class features could stay unchanged, as would be the mystery paths and fundamental mysteries. Just change the spellcasting to a psions power progression, but give them only one new power at each level.
You'd just have to add augmentation options to all mysteries, but I think there's a list of most common augmentations and their additional power point costs.

Nice idea! After all psionic powers are very close to beign spell like abilities themselves. You could remove at 13th level the need to check for SR and the need for concentration checks to emulate Supernatural abilities. The fluff could stay the same, after all arcane magic can be emulated with "spell points" in Unearthed arcanna.
I could see it working and would like to see someone rebuilding the shadowcaster with "power points" :smallsmile:

The Corinthian
2009-09-15, 08:54 AM
Personally, I use Mouseferatu's fixes from ENworld, except for the bonus spell rule, which I made even more generous:

1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. The trick is, since you can cast each mystery you know a separate number of times per day, the bonus spells apply to each mystery. So for example, a shadowcaster with Cha 28 can use each 9th level mystery he knows an extra time per day. (Mouseferatu originally had them work more like bonus spells do for other casters, but 1. it was fiddly and lead to more bookkeeping and 2. shadowcasters can use the boost, since I don't allow them to use runestaves, knowstones or equivalent. It's kind of their special quirk.)

3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

6) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

Again, these are all (except for number 2) Ari Marmell, aka Mouseferatu's ideas, and NOT MINE. (I think they're really good, though)

peacenlove
2009-09-15, 09:33 AM
Personally, I use Mouseferatu's fixes from ENworld, except for the bonus spell rule, which I made even more generous:

1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. The trick is, since you can cast each mystery you know a separate number of times per day, the bonus spells apply to each mystery. So for example, a shadowcaster with Cha 28 can use each 9th level mystery he knows an extra time per day. (Mouseferatu originally had them work more like bonus spells do for other casters, but 1. it was fiddly and lead to more bookkeeping and 2. shadowcasters can use the boost, since I don't allow them to use runestaves, knowstones or equivalent. It's kind of their special quirk.)

3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

6) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

Again, these are all (except for number 2) Ari Marmell, aka Mouseferatu's ideas, and NOT MINE. (I think they're really good, though)

Note that i have never played with these houserules although i have seen them in EnWorld. They are ok however he admits he hasn't playtested them. Some comments though :smallbiggrin:.

1) It is redundant since it was that way before the fixes

2) What happens if you reselect a mystery? Does it gain the bonus to uses from charisma once or twice? Also a change that is needed but leads to the problem "reflavored" sorcerer (see below)

3 and 4) These changes are kinda needed but i feel like they make a shadowcaster just another reflavored sorcerer (YMMV though, they are not necessarily bad, its just me advocating that with meaningful restrictions there should be meaningful benefits). They can be emulated within the 3.5 rules with runestaves (but you specifically disallow them so this change is needed).

5) You essentially gain up to double he number of feats. Numbers may vary but the possibility is there. If the bonus feats of the shadowcaster weren't hideously weak (I mean Shadow vision? come on... Or sudden metashadow enhancing feats which need a big amount of them to be able to be used twice per day, while other casters enjoy their metamagic reducers with 2-4 feats) that would actually be a reward in itself. But it improves the situation.

6) I heartily approve of this change :smallsmile:

7) I always though that SU abilities always were 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha and that the text in ToM was an omission. However note that a mystery can become a Supernatural ability way before 13th level (Fundamentals? Favored mystery?) so the level limit shouldn't exist in the first place.

In my humble opinion these "fixes" just bring the shadowcaster closer to the sorcerer. A sorcerer with half the spells known (remember you dissallowed runestaves), MAYBE more uses (since charisma gets added twice or thrice on their mysteries), and more feats (but of woefully worse quality). The redeeming quality (Supernatural abilities) gets drowned by the fact that it affects mysteries of 1st to 3rd level (and with the restricted use of metashadow feats they will remain 1st to 3rd level spells :smallfrown:).
I guess they are nice for a start though and they surely make the shadowcaster "less problematic". However you will find hard to convince someone to play this class over a sorcerer.

wizuriel
2009-09-15, 12:59 PM
hmmm I misread the original fix and did the same thing The Corinthian does (assumed the +1 bonus for level 1 spells applied to all level 1 spells).

Another change I made was spell like abilities and super natural abilities automatically refresh at nightfall (still need to rest to cast the spell mysteries). It just seemed stupid to me that a shadow caster would rest during night to keep up with the party (since most of the party would probably rest at night and not want the shadowcaster to sleep during the day).

shadow casters are on the weak side but a fun class. The MAD I found isn't too bad, int is useful to have anyways and with CHA you can be a party face (or backup face)