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TheWerdna
2009-09-08, 07:55 PM
Ok i want to fix melee classes without useing menuvers or the ToB (i like the ToB and use those classes but i want to fix Fighters, monks and Paladins without the ToB rules)

Monks, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers are the ones i see as needing fixing (barbairans are fine as is)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 07:59 PM
Good luck.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-08, 08:01 PM
Rangers a fixed in one of three ways, but one doesn't count because you don't want to use maneuvers (for the record, a large number of people consider the Falling Star style and Sublime Ranger variant really good fixes).

1: Swift Hunter feat+Scout levels. Scout 4/Ranger 16, or Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Prestige Ranger 15. The first probably uses ranged, the second uses TWFing.

2: Wild Shape Ranger variant in the SRD.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 08:02 PM
I would like to point out that Rangers become much better if you let in SpC Ranger spells.

olentu
2009-09-08, 08:08 PM
Give monks psionic powers and some bonus feats in exchange for loosing all abilities over level 2 except for AC, flurry, and unarmed strike progression.

Faleldir
2009-09-08, 08:12 PM
The easiest way to fix the Fighter would be to give it all the abilities of a Fighter//Knight.

deuxhero
2009-09-08, 08:14 PM
Give monks psionic powers and some bonus feats in exchange for loosing all abilities over level 2 except for AC, flurry, and unarmed strike progression.

Sounds familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm).

infinitypanda
2009-09-08, 08:25 PM
Maybe let people do a a full attack as a standard action for -2 to hit? If you do, you probably shouldn't allow it as part of a charge.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 08:28 PM
If you do, you probably shouldn't allow it as part of a charge.
Why? Pounce is hardly over-powered, nor is it difficult to get. Before the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, it was stupidly hard to get, but that was a mistake that the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian wisely fixed. In fact, with that change, Pounce actually seems worth about as much as the 10' move speed bonus, balancing the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian better, since it really is a fair alternate class feature, choose between 10' move speed or the removal of the -2 penalty on pouncing. Sounds about right.

Surgo
2009-09-08, 08:31 PM
Ok i want to fix melee classes without useing menuvers or the ToB (i like the ToB and use those classes but i want to fix Fighters, monks and Paladins without the ToB rules)

Monks, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers are the ones i see as needing fixing (barbairans are fine as is)
Races of War (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29).

Stompy
2009-09-08, 08:49 PM
Maybe let people do a a full attack as a standard action for -2 to hit? If you do, you probably shouldn't allow it as part of a charge.

Seconded. (This may have funny implications with swift hunter though.) Multiple attack are DnD 3.5's idea of upping the damage at later levels, and it tends to be less relevant as DnD turns into SpellBatlleHax.

I like the Rebalanced Compendium's revision on classes, as well as this rule.
All iterative attacks come at a -5 penalty from the attacker’s full BAB, instead of a cumulative -5 penalty. So a full BAB attack routine at level 20 would look like +20/+15/+15/+15 instead of +20/+15/+10/+5.

Ernir
2009-09-08, 09:06 PM
Ok i want to fix melee classes without useing menuvers or the ToB (i like the ToB and use those classes but i want to fix Fighters, monks and Paladins without the ToB rules)

Monks, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers are the ones i see as needing fixing (barbairans are fine as is)

You would not be the first...

BWL's Fighter Fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692) I like it.

Some collection of rebalanced thingies (http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/972190/Rebalanced%20Compendium.pdf), it contains a Paladin fix that I like (OW4's fix). Also, Fax's Paladin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551)

The top Google entry for a Monk fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121595)

Ranger... uh, give him the Druid's AC progression and caster level = Ranger level - 3 instead of Ranger level/2? Combine some of his feats, and give him better ones at the lower levels? You need to fix TWF and archery before starting real work on the Ranger, I say.
But my favourite bone to throw them (in my mind, I have not playtested this): every time a new Favoured Enemy is gained, the bonus against any one FE does not rise by +2, instead all of its FE bonuses are MULTIPLIED by 2.



I should also say, though, what I actually do. Only once have I convinced the DM to accept a Paladin fix (OW4's fix, see above), the rest of the time, I just do the following:

I use the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin as dip classes. Fighter 2 for feats or Fighter 6 for Dungeoncrasher, Monk 2 for its all-around frontloadedness, and Paladin 2 for Divine Grace. After that, I multiclass into something else.
For Rangers, I multiclass into Scout and take Swift Hunter. That and some half-decent build design is usually enough to drag them up to the power level of the ToB classes.

Anyways, good luck. :smallsmile:

Dienekes
2009-09-08, 09:09 PM
Use Fax's Monk, Races of War's Fighter, Pathfinder's Paladin (still weak, maybe give bard's spell progression), make Rangers animal companion druid -3. Also switch Favored Enemy with Favored Terrain, but increases the same bonus or more. It's more useful overall.

elliott20
2009-09-08, 09:40 PM
Yeah, Fax's is probably one of our more seasoned homebrewers around here and he's been working on solutions for exactly what you're talking about. Just spend some time in the homebrew forums and you'll see a bunch.

deuxhero
2009-09-09, 08:09 AM
Rebalanced Paladin was popular, don't know if there are any mirrors that allowed it to survive the conception Wizards forum changes.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-09, 08:17 AM
So quick question for every one...

Do you think that a good fix for a Fighter is
eaither feats every level.
and or
the weapon aptitude thing from Warblades? (the ability to refocus your weapon only feats)

Yora
2009-09-09, 08:33 AM
I like to use a weapon proficiency system similar to 2nd edition.

Weapons are still treated as simple, martial, and exotic for proficiencies.
But Weapon Focus, Specialization, GWF, and GWS apply to weapon groups instead of single weapon types.
I use weapon groups like
Large swords (longsword, bastard sword, great sword, scimitar, falchion)
Small swords (short sword, dagger, kukri, sickle)
Axes
Maces (clubs, maces, hammers, morningstars, flails)
Polearms
Bows
Crossbows
Thrown weapons (anything thrown and slings)
Hand to hand (unarmed, gauntlet, punching dagger)

The feats apply to all weapons in a group, with which one is proficient. So a druid could take Weapon Focus (large swords), but it would only apply to scimitars. If he's an elf, it also applies to longswords, and if he multiclasses into ranger it applies to all large swords (except one-handed bastard sword).

Fighter gain one Advanced proficiency feat on every odd level in addition to the bonus feats on every even level.

---

I also allow all characters to split their movement, so they can make a standard action at any point during their movement (like spring attack and shot on the run).

Spring attack (and the like) can be taken multiple times. Each time the feat is taken, a character can make one additional of his attacks during his movements.

---

A shield bonus and shield enchantment bonus applies to touch AC as well.
Any shield bonus is lost when a character would lose his Dex-bonus to AC.

lesser_minion
2009-09-09, 08:46 AM
There is also the Arts of War system proposed by Bears with Lasers and borrowed by Satyr. You can find Satyr's rules here (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Serpents_and_Sewers).

I know you said no ToB, but Fighters could probably use the "practice for one hour to change feats with a specific weapon as a focus" class feature as well.

elliott20
2009-09-09, 08:55 AM
fighters are hard to do this with primarily because fighters, who are supposed to be the masters of combat, just don't have a lot of ways to dominate combat except dealing HP damage, and even then they aren't so good at doing that against a mobile foe.

allowing a full attack off of a standard just changes way too many rules and in my opinion is too drastic.

but I remember the art of war fighter and I remember liking it. I also remember someone who made a fighter that relied off of "shifts" which is basically where you can do more by beating the attack roll by a large margin.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-09, 09:07 AM
A good custom magic item system goes a long way to fixing melee classes ... the people who don't want to give martial classes inherent magical options generally don't want magic marts either. Of course what they want is irrelevant to what is possible.

Kantur
2009-09-09, 09:08 AM
fighters are hard to do this with primarily because fighters, who are supposed to be the masters of combat, just don't have a lot of ways to dominate combat except dealing HP damage, and even then they aren't so good at doing that against a mobile foe.

allowing a full attack off of a standard just changes way too many rules and in my opinion is too drastic.

but I remember the art of war fighter and I remember liking it. I also remember someone who made a fighter that relied off of "shifts" which is basically where you can do more by beating the attack roll by a large margin.

Just a quick thought, but what about making more feats with Figher level x as requirements that improve the other combat options:
Maybe feats that make the fighter count as a size larger for them or having opponents count as a size smaller? For disarm, perhaps being able to count light weapons as one handed and one handed as two handed for disarming, etc.?

Person_Man
2009-09-09, 09:09 AM
Fax has done some really excellent homebrew work on this, as have at least a dozen other Playgrounders. If you don't want wholesale re-writes, you can consider simple fixes:

Monks: Give them Psychic Warrior psionic power progression. Or if you're playing in a campaign without abuse CoDzilla builds, then you can just give them full BAB, Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds, you can use Wisdom in place of Strength for To-Hit for simple weapons and natural attacks), and bonus Monk-ish feats (Stunning Fist, Trip, Grapple, etc) on their dead-ish levels (8, 10, 14, 16, 18).

Fighters: Just give them bonus Fighter feats every level. Also, take a look at Pathfinder, as it has some great fixes (which are unfortunately offset by their nerfing so many feats - but you can ignore that). You can download it for free from the Paizo website.

Paladins: Don't really need fixing. Just give them an awesome Special Mount, and encourage them to use Share Spells. The more powerful the other party members are, the more powerful the mount can be. Everybody respects a Paladin riding a frickin dragon. And again, Pathfinder has done some excellent work on the Paladin.

Rangers: Give them the Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor, lets them memorize Wizard spells) feat for free. Consolidate Favored Enemy categories to something more reasonable: Natural Creatures (Animals, Vermin, Fey, Plants, Ooze), Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids (including Giants, and any humanoid with a template), Creations (Undead, Constructs, Aberrations), Magical Creatures (Magical Beasts, Dragons), Outsiders (all Outsiders, Elementals). Give their Animal Companion full Druid progression. Give them Ranger bonus feats (Favored Enemy, Animal Companion, TWF or Bow feats) on their dead levels (8th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 19th).

Also, consider giving each class an awesome capstone of some sort at 20th level. There should be a reason to take 20 levels of the same class.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 09:15 AM
A good custom magic item system goes a long way to fixing melee classes ... the people who don't want to give martial classes inherent magical options generally don't want magic marts either. Of course what they want is irrelevant to what is possible.

Weapons of Legacy might work. Custom, of course.

kamikasei
2009-09-09, 09:24 AM
So quick question for every one...

Do you think that a good fix for a Fighter is
eaither feats every level.
and or
the weapon aptitude thing from Warblades? (the ability to refocus your weapon only feats)

Neither of those would fix Fighter. They'd boost it, but not address its fundamental problems. I mean, they already get a bunch of feats as if they were a genuniely powerful class feature - getting more won't change the fact that, no, they're not actually all that big a deal.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-09, 09:30 AM
Neither of those would fix Fighter. They'd boost it, but not address its fundamental problems. I mean, they already get a bunch of feats as if they were a genuniely powerful class feature - getting more won't change the fact that, no, they're not actually all that big a deal.

Yes but giving them a feat every level would allow then to get to multiple feat chains faster.. which would give them some versitility.

kamikasei
2009-09-09, 09:33 AM
Oh, I think it'd be a good idea... I just don't think it'd fix them.

Surgo
2009-09-09, 09:49 AM
So quick question for every one...

Do you think that a good fix for a Fighter is
eaither feats every level.
and or
the weapon aptitude thing from Warblades? (the ability to refocus your weapon only feats)
No, because that doesn't fix one of the primary problems of fighters. In fact, those dozen-a-day fighter "fixes" all suffer from the same problem anyway: fighters still have nothing to do outside of combat.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-09, 09:57 AM
Ok i want to fix melee classes without useing menuvers or the ToB (i like the ToB and use those classes but i want to fix Fighters, monks and Paladins without the ToB rules)

Easiest, quickest and dirtiest way? Don't have casters. Is it a fun, useful or even plausible way? No. But it fixes melee with the hamhandedness of George Lucas going at the latest bit of Star Wars canon.

Person_Man
2009-09-09, 10:00 AM
No, because that doesn't fix one of the primary problems of fighters. In fact, those dozen-a-day fighter "fixes" all suffer from the same problem anyway: fighters still have nothing to do outside of combat.

Roleplaying. You don't need a utility class ability to do something out of combat. Most other non-caster classes don't have utility abilities, they just get more Skill Points. You could easily increase Fighter Skill Points to 4 per level, and select non-combat feats with feats from their normal progression.

Also, why do Fighter's need something to do outside of combat? They're Fighters. Their very name means "someone who fights." If you're choosing to play a Fighter, then you're choosing to focus on melee combat. If you want to focus on non-combat situations, you could play a Bard or a feat Rogue.

Yora
2009-09-09, 10:06 AM
No, because that doesn't fix one of the primary problems of fighters. In fact, those dozen-a-day fighter "fixes" all suffer from the same problem anyway: fighters still have nothing to do outside of combat.
So, unless we find something to do for warriors outside of combat, this means that warriors are not suitable for RPGs.
And as a result RPGs would only have spellcasters at all?

Fun thing that spellcasters were meant to suplement warriors in most non-rpg fantasy fiction.

Saying that fighters have nothing to do outside combat is mentioned pretty often and also fairly obvious. But if we considere this fact more seriously, we might actually be on to something here.

Let's not dwell on the "warrior" part too much right now, and rather go more basic and ask "what can a character do outside of combat"?
"Whaever it is, a wizard can do it better with a spell" may be true, but if we let this stop us, we don't need to think anymore and just agree that D&D needs only the wizard class and nothing else.

So, as a serious question: What things do characters do in an RPG, if they are not trying to kill something? Regardless of class.

Telonius
2009-09-09, 10:07 AM
To fix the fighter, you need to fix the feats. Make them worthwhile, make them scale. Make Specialization and Focus worth taking. Let the feats give the fighter options. Tactical feats are a good model for this.

Monk - give them full BAB, let them enchant their body and fists as though they were armor and weapons. Let them apply Wis to attack and damage as their levels go higher. Give them a Grapple bonus that scales. Give them a free proficiency feat (whatever weapon they choose) at level 5 or so and let it count as a Monk weapon. Flurry is no longer a full attack action.

Ranger - trades animal companions with the Druid. Making TWF scale will help him out a lot; additional style mastery decreases the penalty to TWF to eventually get it down to -0 (a la Tempest).

Paladin - remove the Paladin Stick class feature. Paladins must act as exemplars of their god or philosophy, and take the alignment thereof.

Both Rangers and Paladins are front-loaded. Give them some goodies in the level 10-20 range. Wings for a Paladin, maybe?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-09, 10:12 AM
So, unless we find something to do for warriors outside of combat, this means that warriors are not suitable for RPGs.
And as a result RPGs would only have spellcasters at all?

Fun thing that spellcasters were meant to suplement warriors in most non-rpg fantasy fiction.

Saying that fighters have nothing to do outside combat is mentioned pretty often and also fairly obvious. But if we considere this fact more seriously, we might actually be on to something here.

Let's not dwell on the "warrior" part too much right now, and rather go more basic and ask "what can a character do outside of combat"?
"Whaever it is, a wizard can do it better with a spell" may be true, but if we let this stop us, we don't need to think anymore and just agree that D&D needs only the wizard class and nothing else.

So, as a serious question: What things do characters do in an RPG, if they are not trying to kill something? Regardless of class.

So I guess then What should warriors be able to do out side of combat?
Though i agree a fighter skill list and skill points are lacking they are warriors there supposed to be really good at martial combat and not realy good else where.

(though again i agree there skill list is lacking a bit.. why no balance,profession, spot, listen?)

Fax Celestis
2009-09-09, 10:32 AM
Relevant linkspam.

Bladeweaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107106)
Dreadnaught (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99504)
Fencer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100936)
Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48591)
Luckthief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50900)
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98238)
Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551)
Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101419)
Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92221)
Warlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99522)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 02:22 PM
So I guess then What should warriors be able to do out side of combat?
Though i agree a fighter skill list and skill points are lacking they are warriors there supposed to be really good at martial combat and not realy good else where.

(though again i agree there skill list is lacking a bit.. why no balance,profession, spot, listen?)

We'll need utility. Spot and listen are good examples of skills that would give them more utility. Buffing their ability to intimidate (say, STR instead of CHA) would be useful, as you can do fun things with intimidation.

Actual class features, such as Dungeoncrasher, are another example of what a better fighter should have.

Tactical feats were mentioned back, and those are good. Shock Trooper, Elusive Target, and Combat Brute are good examples of this. The Combat Focus line of feats have some decent choices in them, but require too much Wis.

deuxhero
2009-09-09, 02:31 PM
So I guess then What should warriors be able to do out side of combat?
Though i agree a fighter skill list and skill points are lacking they are warriors there supposed to be really good at martial combat and not realy good else where.

(though again i agree there skill list is lacking a bit.. why no balance,profession, spot, listen?)

Rogues can pick locks, scout (though divination spells work better for it), solve traps. Wizards can create preptual motion machines, open "shortcuts", teleport you straight to the bad guys and all around tell the universe to sit down and shut up. Fighters can... spring traps.

I suggest droping "mundane" entirely, mundane is what NPCs are for anyways.

A good example of a super natural fighter is the Wildshape Ranger/Barbarian , they learn of foes in advance via scent, create tunnels for the party via burrow speeds and (in the case of ranger) heal with those ever popular wands of cure light wounds.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-09, 02:32 PM
The Combat Focus line of feats have some decent choices in them, but require too much Wis.
Make Fighter Bonus Feats ignore ability score requirements?

Perhaps better, give a bonus equal to one's Fighter level to all ability scores for the purpose of meeting pre-requisites when taking Fighter Bonus Feats.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-09, 02:35 PM
How about if each of the Weapon Focus chain gave +3 to hit and +3 to damage, and specifically ignored the rule that Warblades can qualify for them? Could get a little extreme, but so does just about everything else in the game.
Using Weapon Group Feats and having WF apply to a whole group of weapons would be nice too, though it doesn't fix the problem with that chain.

Also, Fighters should probably have lots of skill points per level. Like, 6/level to outstrip the Barbarian in this department - "I'm a master of combat versed in many different styles" VS "HULK SMASH!" and Spot, Listen, and 3 more skills of that individual Fighter's choice as class skills. (On top of what they have already, obviously.)

I'd say the Gaming Den already sorted this, but they haven't got a large, finished list of feats conveniently collated anywhere. WotC? Has.

Surgo
2009-09-09, 02:57 PM
I'd say the Gaming Den already sorted this, but they haven't got a large, finished list of feats conveniently collated anywhere. WotC? Has.
Aside from Races of War? We're working on it...

Omegonthesane
2009-09-09, 03:35 PM
Aside from Races of War? We're working on it...

Yeah, I know. I just wish the PDF was updated again with stuff that's been done since version 0.5.1 came out... that can be done for less than 15000 GP, right? :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 03:42 PM
Brilliant Gameologists' Rebalancing Compendium (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2096.0) contains a reworked Fighter that I recall was pretty decent. Too bad the site is down now though.

Surgo
2009-09-09, 03:49 PM
Yeah, I know. I just wish the PDF was updated again with stuff that's been done since version 0.5.1 came out... that can be done for less than 15000 GP, right?
I maintained that PDF, and I don't update it anymore. Any updates are actually put on the wiki in my signature (see Category:Tome, and I'll create a custom search page for tome feats when I can access it again).

Omegonthesane
2009-09-09, 03:55 PM
I maintained that PDF, and I don't update it anymore. Any updates are actually put on the wiki in my signature (see Category:Tome, and I'll create a custom search page for tome feats when I can access it again).

YAY! Wiki even more convenient than PDF!

Though, even without the Tome feats, Advanced Combat makes BaB actually have meaning and therefore buffs martial classes quite a bit. And gives Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Bull Rush to everyone as bonus feats, if I read it right. :smallbiggrin:

Ellington
2009-09-09, 03:57 PM
My house rules for melee characters. These don't fix them at all, but they make them more fun to play. I don't use monks so no advice there :smallfrown: Some people say I'm actually making the ranger worse by forcing the Complete Champion variant, but whatever.


Barbarian: Give them pounce at level 6.

Fighter: I give mine the benefits of the Dungeoncrasher variant for free, 4 skill points per level as well as negating 1 point of armor check penalty at third level and then every other level. Spot/Listen are class skills. No movement speed penalty for wearing heavy armor.

Paladin: I make their spells charisma based and change "smite evil/good" to simply "smite" and let it hit everything.

Ranger: Full Animal Companion progression at level 4 and Champion of the Wild variant from Complete Champion.

Rogue: Sneak Attack deals half damage instead of none against undead/constructs/whatever.

horseboy
2009-09-09, 04:01 PM
to fix melee classes you really need to first pretty much redo the melee rules. Given the amount of work that would require you'd really just be better off playing a system that actually works. If you want something that looks like 3.x but works better I'd recommend HARP. It's actually dangerous to have 3' of steel shoved through your chest.

Surgo
2009-09-09, 04:02 PM
YAY! Wiki even more convenient than PDF!

Though, even without the Tome feats, Advanced Combat makes BaB actually have meaning and therefore buffs martial classes quite a bit. And gives Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Bull Rush to everyone as bonus feats, if I read it right. :smallbiggrin:
Here's a temporary list page for all Tome feats (the page automatically updates when new feats are added). (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/User:Surgo/Temporary_Tome_Feat_List) Once Wikia fixes our install this page should be unnecessary.

Doc Roc
2009-09-09, 04:04 PM
No, because that doesn't fix one of the primary problems of fighters. In fact, those dozen-a-day fighter "fixes" all suffer from the same problem anyway: fighters still have nothing to do outside of combat.

Give the gentle sir a half-penny prize.

That's part of the problem, but not all of it. The other half is that fighters often find themselves outside combat in the middle of combat thanks to innumerable holes in their design.

Yora
2009-09-10, 06:55 AM
A friend showed me this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

I don't know if the writer was an RPG player, but it hits the nail straight on the head. :smallbiggrin: