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Magugag
2009-09-09, 04:25 AM
So I'm rather interested in playing a kobold. No, not as a joke! My DM is presenting us with a campaign setting in which 'monstrous' humanoids (even those stated in the monster manual to have evil dispositions) coexist with the more typical races to varying degrees, whether it be mingling in their society or in nations all their own.

In this world, kobolds possess a modestly successful subterranean kingdom, focused around mining, yadda yadda. The lore my DM gave me was actually pretty cool, with religion focused around draconic worship and tamed drakes serving as mounts and working beasts. When I glanced at the kobold racial traits, though, I couldn't help but notice that they held enough negative that they seem to pale in comparison to the PHB races. That's without mentioning the more overpowered races from other sourcebooks that I'm certain my fellow party members will be drawing on.

Can anyone suggest to me the best way to use my kobold? Am I missing something in the sub-par racials? Are they really weak, or are they just different? If they are weak, does anyone know a variant I can propose to my DM? I suppose I shouldn't attempt making a fighter with this sort of character, for starters, with that -4 strength glaring at me.

sofawall
2009-09-09, 04:30 AM
Heehee, you haven't been around long, have you?

Casting level 5 spells at level 6 is fun.

Croverus
2009-09-09, 04:31 AM
1) Get Races of Dragon PDF
2) Look at the Kobold Chapter
3) Build character with that info
4) ?????
5) Prosper

Eloel
2009-09-09, 04:34 AM
Heehee, you haven't been around long, have you?

Casting level 5 spells at level 6 is fun.

Unless you're going for some infinite loop, you CAN'T cast 5th level spells at level6.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

Try this, fixes the kobolds a bit. (assuming you're not using Dragonwrought feat. Dragonwrought kobolds are already broken)

kamikasei
2009-09-09, 04:36 AM
Can anyone suggest to me the best way to use my kobold? Am I missing something in the sub-par racials? Are they really weak, or are they just different? If they are weak, does anyone know a variant I can propose to my DM? I suppose I shouldn't attempt making a fighter with this sort of character, for starters, with that -4 strength glaring at me.

MM kobolds are definitely sub-par as a player race. Check out the web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) for Races of the Dragon, which provides them with new abilities and makes them a bit stronger.

What sources do you have available? What are rest of the party playing? Will you be the only kobold?

Magugag
2009-09-09, 04:45 AM
My DM has just about any source available that you can imagine; he fanatically buys just about every book. What's broken about Dragonwrought kobolds, out of curiosity? Taking a look at the feat, it doesn't seem game-breaking.

EDIT: And yes, I imagine that I'll be the only kobold in the party. I don't think the other party members have had this dream quite as long as I. :smalltongue:

blazinghand
2009-09-09, 04:49 AM
Kobolds have some pretty heavy stat penalties. All told, we're looking at a -4 net stat change after applying the racial modifiers, making Kobolds poor fighters. The bonus natural armor, darkvision, 30 speed while small, and natural weapons might make up for it, except that light sensitivity is a huge pain and needing to invest skill points or Int to speak Common is also a problem. If you're going to be a primary caster who has no need for physical stats, you could get by. Goblins are almost entirely better than Kobolds, including having small size yet 30 speed. I'd go with them.

olentu
2009-09-09, 04:49 AM
My DM has just about any source available that you can imagine; he fanatically buys just about every book. What's broken about Dragonwrought kobolds, out of curiosity? Taking a look at the feat, it doesn't seem game-breaking.

EDIT: And yes, I imagine that I'll be the only kobold in the party. I don't think the other party members have had this dream quite as long as I. :smalltongue:

Epic feats, lordrake, and free stats are all I can think of at the moment.

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 04:50 AM
My DM has just about any source available that you can imagine; he fanatically buys just about every book. What's broken about Dragonwrought kobolds, out of curiosity? Taking a look at the feat, it doesn't seem game-breaking.

Dragon-type has a bunch of wonky rules attached to it. First of all, Dragons of certain age-category automatically qualify for Epic feats. I recall it was Old or something. Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons with Age Categories, so old enough Dragonwrought Kobolds...qualify for epic feats regardless of their HD.

They also have the Dragon-type so they can take on a variety of Dragon Templates from Dragons of Eberron, including Loredrake which gives the Dragon 2 extra levels of Sorcerer casting, but reduces its Hit Dice to D10s. Guess what, nobody cares since you have no racial HD anyways. Whops, two free sorc-levels!

And finally, Dragons only get bonuses from aging, so you can start with +3 Int, Wis and Cha without any penalties. This is actually fair, balances out the Kobold stats and is the only one of these three I personally allow. I feel no starting feat is a fair trade for positive stat modifiers.


EDIT: Ninja'z

sofawall
2009-09-09, 04:52 AM
Unless you're going for some infinite loop, you CAN'T cast 5th level spells at level6.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

Try this, fixes the kobolds a bit. (assuming you're not using Dragonwrought feat. Dragonwrought kobolds are already broken)

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
White Dragonspawn with LA buyoff
Dragonwrought Loredrake

That's +4 to sorcerer level for casting. Not just caster level, but for spells known and spells per day as well.

It appears at 6th level you can have the casting of a level 10 sorcerer. What's that, level 10 sorcerers can cast level 5 spells? It appears you are wrong.

Don't dispute something in CAPITALS unless you're right. I'm likely to use bold right back at you.

Magugag
2009-09-09, 05:06 AM
Dragon-type has a bunch of wonky rules attached to it. First of all, Dragons of certain age-category automatically qualify for Epic feats. I recall it was Old or something. Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons with Age Categories, so old enough Dragonwrought Kobolds...qualify for epic feats regardless of their HD.

They also have the Dragon-type so they can take on a variety of Dragon Templates from Dragons of Eberron, including Loredrake which gives the Dragon 2 extra levels of Sorcerer casting, but reduces its Hit Dice to D10s. Guess what, nobody cares since you have no racial HD anyways. Whops, two free sorc-levels!

And finally, Dragons only get bonuses from aging, so you can start with +3 Int, Wis and Cha without any penalties. This is actually fair, balances out the Kobold stats and is the only one of these three I personally allow. I feel no starting feat is a fair trade for positive stat modifiers.


EDIT: Ninja'z

I'm just curious which book has the benefits of aging for dragons, since I'd like to show my DM. The Loredrake and epic feats are tempting, but definitely utterly broken, so I agree with you on not going there. So far, it's starting to sound like I'll be taking the path of a sorcerer with my kobold, and I really have to thank you guys. This is way more than I was hoping for!

Eloel
2009-09-09, 05:08 AM
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
White Dragonspawn with LA buyoff
Dragonwrought Loredrake

That's +4 to sorcerer level for casting. Not just caster level, but for spells known and spells per day as well.

It appears at 6th level you can have the casting of a level 10 sorcerer. What's that, level 10 sorcerers can cast level 5 spells? It appears you are wrong.

Don't dispute something in CAPITALS unless you're right. I'm likely to use bold right back at you.

Firstly, that's a White Dragonspawn Kobold, not a Kobold. Just like how you're a Half-Dragon Human and not Human with that template.
Secondly, you're a Dragonlance race with Eberron rules. That doesn't work.
Thirdly, Sovereign Archetypes are True Dragon only.
Forthly, you're using 3 variant rules at once. I could say 'all kobolds get +16 Sorcerer levels' as a variant rule, and the kobolds in my campaign would be able to get 9th level spells at level1.

OK, CAN I CAPITALIZE ALREADY?

kamikasei
2009-09-09, 05:09 AM
My DM has just about any source available that you can imagine; he fanatically buys just about every book. What's broken about Dragonwrought kobolds, out of curiosity? Taking a look at the feat, it doesn't seem game-breaking.

Note that the extreme brokenness of kobolds is a bit of a meme, so take some of what's said here with a pinch of salt. It's true that various feats and templates can be used to do horrible, horrible things to the rules, but each of them in themselves is generally innocuous enough unless you mix them together and garnish with spite.

Which is to say, you should be okay to play with any of these options so long as your DM will trust in your good faith.

Magugag
2009-09-09, 05:15 AM
Note that the extreme brokenness of kobolds is a bit of a meme, so take some of what's said here with a pinch of salt. It's true that various feats and templates can be used to do horrible, horrible things to the rules, but each of them in themselves is generally innocuous enough unless you mix them together and garnish with spite.

Which is to say, you should be okay to play with any of these options so long as your DM will trust in your good faith.

Heheh, you needn't worry. Even were I so inclined, which I am not, my DM only puts up with so much you know what before he puts his foot down, and the word of the DM is the word of God. I will optimize my build, certainly, but I have no desire to break the game or try to snatch the spotlight all to myself. I'm not looking to make Pun-Pun. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 05:17 AM
I'm just curious which book has the benefits of aging for dragons, since I'd like to show my DM. The Loredrake and epic feats are tempting, but definitely utterly broken, so I agree with you on not going there. So far, it's starting to sound like I'll be taking the path of a sorcerer with my kobold, and I really have to thank you guys. This is way more than I was hoping for!

Draconomicon has age category rules IIRC. And they pretty much count as "True Dragons" since they have age categories; that's the defining factor. That's why they qualify for the sovereigns too.

And yeah, there's this theoretical optimization wisdom: "On a sufficient level of optimization, Kobolds do everything better." There's a grain of truth in it; once you try hard enough, no matter what you're doing, Kobold tends to be the best. The original Pun-Pun is a Kobold.

kamikasei
2009-09-09, 05:22 AM
Heheh, you needn't worry. Even were I so inclined, which I am not, my DM only puts up with so much you know what before he puts his foot down, and the word of the DM is the word of God. I will optimize my build, certainly, but I have no desire to break the game or try to snatch the spotlight all to myself. I'm not looking to make Pun-Pun. :smalltongue:

Oh, I didn't think you were. I just meant, don't be scared off the options people mention because of how hilariously broken they can be made.

sofawall
2009-09-09, 05:24 AM
Firstly, that's a White Dragonspawn Kobold, not a Kobold. Just like how you're a Half-Dragon Human and not Human with that template.
Secondly, you're a Dragonlance race with Eberron rules. That doesn't work.
Thirdly, Sovereign Archetypes are True Dragon only.
Forthly, you're using 3 variant rules at once. I could say 'all kobolds get +16 Sorcerer levels' as a variant rule, and the kobolds in my campaign would be able to get 9th level spells at level1.

OK, CAN I CAPITALIZE ALREADY?

It's a kobold with a template, so it qualifies as a kobold.

Why doesn't it work? Eberron is said to include everything in D&D, so somewhere there, you will find Dragonspawn. I believe it says this in the Campaign Setting, but it may have been merely Keith Baker saying it.

Dragonwrought, due to some poor wording, can be read to qualify as a True Dragon. Dragonwrought kobolds have age categories and get more powerful as they get older (mental stats increase).

I count one variant (LA buyoff), a web enhancement (GDRoP) and some character options (Loredrake and Dragonwrought). Also, they are all printed in books, and are therefore a WotC-approved rule. (Well, technically not LA buyoff, but seeing as how it's the most balanced thing here...) Your rule is not.

And what's so bad about using variants?

No, you may not yet capitalize.

Eloel
2009-09-09, 05:42 AM
It's a kobold with a template, so it qualifies as a kobold.

Why doesn't it work? Eberron is said to include everything in D&D, so somewhere there, you will find Dragonspawn. I believe it says this in the Campaign Setting, but it may have been merely Keith Baker saying it.

Dragonwrought, due to some poor wording, can be read to qualify as a True Dragon. Dragonwrought kobolds have age categories and get more powerful as they get older (mental stats increase).

I count one variant (LA buyoff), a web enhancement (GDRoP) and some character options (Loredrake and Dragonwrought). Also, they are all printed in books, and are therefore a WotC-approved rule. (Well, technically not LA buyoff, but seeing as how it's the most balanced thing here...) Your rule is not.

And what's so bad about using variants?

No, you may not yet capitalize.
You have 3 variants, LA buyoff, Sovereign archetypes and flaws. You need 5 feats by L6, you need 2 flaws.

Variants are that, variants, they're not rules, you can't just go about using them for everything. *points at spell-charging variant in UA* See? Even if official, they're still not rules.

RIGHT?

Prime32
2009-09-09, 05:54 AM
A lot of the consequences of dragonwrought kobolds being treated as dragons are cheesy, but the "Dragonwrought kobolds don't take aging penalties but still get the bonuses" thing doesn't come from them being dragons. It's specifically pointed out for them in the same book as the feat.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-09, 05:59 AM
What feats do you need? Dragonwrought, is one. White Dragonspawn and Loredrake are templates, not feats. Draconic Rite of Passage and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage are rituals that cost time, money, and some HP, but not feats. What feats do you need?

EDIT: GDRoP requires Draconic Resevoir. OK, that's a second feat, forgot that. It's a nice, solid feat, but a feat nonetheless. Two feats by level 6 is not too big an issue, especially since you're a Sorcerer. Even with LA +1 (no buyoff), you're talking about being three levels ahead of the game...

sofawall
2009-09-09, 06:03 AM
You have 3 variants, LA buyoff, Sovereign archetypes and flaws. You need 5 feats by L6, you need 2 flaws.

Variants are that, variants, they're not rules, you can't just go about using them for everything. *points at spell-charging variant in UA* See? Even if official, they're still not rules.

RIGHT?

Sovereign Archetypes are a variant? I thought they were a character option.

Ok, so you have two.

OBLIGATORY BOLDED TEXT

EDIT: It's also capital, because you were partly right :P

Dublock
2009-09-09, 07:52 AM
I just want to put out that in the fluff of being a "true dragon" does NOT mean Kobold, even with a template as the physical structure is different from a kobold.

Set
2009-09-09, 08:37 AM
There's no real balance reason for Kobolds to be any weaker or frailer than Halflings or Gnomes, so I allow PC Kobolds to replace their racial modifiers with -2 Str and +2 Dex. The +1 natural armor is nice, but not really all that special compared to the Halflings +1 bonus to all saving throws.

Even with this enhancement, the bonuses listed on the web enhancement (slight build, claws, etc.) don't bring the Kobold over the top compared to the Dwarf, Human, etc.

Granted, bumping up races in this manner only serves to accentuate how sad the Half-Orc is. :)

Cyclocone
2009-09-09, 08:57 AM
Sovereign Archetypes are a variant? I thought they were a character option.

Ok, so you have two.

OBLIGATORY BOLDED TEXT

EDIT: It's also capital, because you were partly right :P

Look closer at the web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a):
Weapon Proficiency: Kobolds receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the heavy pick and light pick as bonus feats. Kobolds are born and bred miners, regardless of their actual profession, allowing them to easily wield these weapons.

There's you two feats.:smallwink:

Magugag
2009-09-11, 08:52 PM
Just wanted to thank you guys for your invaluable help and let you know that I'm currently playing a sixth level kobold sorcerer by the name of Gixiss, and it's working out very nicely so far. Thanks again! :smallbiggrin:

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-09-11, 09:54 PM
Dragon-type has a bunch of wonky rules attached to it. First of all, Dragons of certain age-category automatically qualify for Epic feats. I recall it was Old or something. Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons with Age Categories, so old enough Dragonwrought Kobolds...qualify for epic feats regardless of their HD.

They also have the Dragon-type so they can take on a variety of Dragon Templates from Dragons of Eberron, including Loredrake which gives the Dragon 2 extra levels of Sorcerer casting, but reduces its Hit Dice to D10s. Guess what, nobody cares since you have no racial HD anyways. Whops, two free sorc-levels!

And finally, Dragons only get bonuses from aging, so you can start with +3 Int, Wis and Cha without any penalties. This is actually fair, balances out the Kobold stats and is the only one of these three I personally allow. I feel no starting feat is a fair trade for positive stat modifiers.


EDIT: Ninja'z

How exactly do they get Age Categories? Based solely on the fact that they become Dragon and not Dragonborn?

Magugag
2009-09-11, 10:01 PM
How exactly do they get Age Categories? Based solely on the fact that they become Dragon and not Dragonborn?

Well, actually, Races of the Dragon gives your base kobold age categories!

VKO
2009-09-12, 12:39 AM
Kobold Monks can actually be alright. You're not going for damage here, but instead for the one thing which all monks aspire to: Armor Class!

Kobolds have a natural armor bonus of +1. They also have a dex bonus and a size bonus to AC. Your high scores should be Dex, Wis and Int in that order. Non negative strength is also a plus. Why Int? Well, there's this cool feat called combat expertise in core that lets you increase your AC by taking a penalty to hit as long as you use an action that turn to attack. If you want more hitting power, splash three levels of swashbuckler to grab weapon finesse and your int damage to your fists. That's only if you have at least 16 Int though, otherwise you're better off going straight monk in the long run. Your hp may increase from swash as well as your bab but your Will and class features suffer.

Now, at high levels you can grab a variant Wisdom bonus item, wear a belt of natural armor, and wear gloves of Dex. Combine this with bracers of armor and you're significantly ahead of the curve on AC compared to non-kobold monks.

You can also grab deadly defense from the phb 2 if you have nothing better to purchase at that level for an extra +1d6 damage when you fight defensively.

It's not loloptimized but it's a decent build that will keep your little guy surviving at the very least in combat. Plus more Int= more skill points which means fun skill tricks that you mostly qualify for.

PId6
2009-09-12, 12:50 AM
Um, what's the point of having AC 100 if you can do absolutely nothing else? Want to attack? You'll never hit. Or do damage even if you do hit. Want to trip or grapple? Your Strength is so low that you'll never succeed. There is absolutely nothing you can do to help your side at all; enemies will just walk around you and go for the squishies in the party, and you can't do anything about it.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-12, 01:59 AM
Levels of Knight and pushing Cha really high might enable you to Test of Mettle the enemy into always attacking (and missing) you. But make sure you get your saves really high, or they'll just pick out a few spells and end you before moving on.

Plus, getting Dex, Wis, Cha, and Int is going to be somewhat difficult.

On the other hand... Dragonwrought Kobolds do have a rather obvious (though cheesy) option to help with that...

VKO
2009-09-13, 03:40 AM
Um, what's the point of having AC 100 if you can do absolutely nothing else? Want to attack? You'll never hit. Or do damage even if you do hit. Want to trip or grapple? Your Strength is so low that you'll never succeed. There is absolutely nothing you can do to help your side at all; enemies will just walk around you and go for the squishies in the party, and you can't do anything about it.

You don't have to do anything but be annoying. Then the cleric can buff you and actually make you a threat.

Everyone knows monks aren't that spectacular at high level anyways compared to the casters, so you just excel in a way they can't.

Besides, -5 to hit for a creature that has a +1 bonus to hit from size, +2 Dex and even weapon focus if you want it isn't that bad. -15% chance to hit if you can only hit on a 16 (which raises it to 20).

Characters in D&D don't have to be about damage, especially at high level where the "squishy" cleric wizard or druid can defeat encounters singlehandedly.

PId6
2009-09-13, 04:19 AM
You don't have to do anything but be annoying. Then the cleric can buff you and actually make you a threat.
It's not that you can't do damage, it's that you can't do anything at all. The monk already has such low to-hit from medium Bab and Flurry that subsequent penalties just enhances the "Flurry of Misses" syndrome. Any turn the cleric spends buffing you is a turn he's not spending clobbering the enemy and actually being effective, not to mention there aren't enough buffs to make a kobold monk an actual threat. Few spells short of Polymorph can buff you enough for enemies to care. You can block a single square, that's it.


Everyone knows monks aren't that spectacular at high level anyways compared to the casters, so you just excel in a way they can't.
And that would be? A wizard can make himself untouchable far more so than a monk. And a player should try to excel in an area that actually helps the party; standing around not getting hit and, more importantly, not hitting doesn't do that.


Besides, -5 to hit for a creature that has a +1 bonus to hit from size, +2 Dex and even weapon focus if you want it isn't that bad. -15% chance to hit if you can only hit on a 16 (which raises it to 20).
You have 3/4 Bab, terrible MAD, Flurry penalty until 9th level, and few ways to enchant your unarmed attacks. And even on the rare times that you hit an enemy, you're doing almost no damage, meaning they still don't care. If something has 300 HP and you're doing 15-20 damage each round, I think it's more than entitled to ignore you entirely.


Characters in D&D don't have to be about damage, especially at high level where the "squishy" cleric wizard or druid can defeat encounters singlehandedly.
It's not about doing damage; it's about having a useful party role, and standing around being ignored is not useful. A character doesn't have to do damage, true, but you still have to do something to make enemies care, which your kobold monk just doesn't do. A useful nondamaging party member would be tripping, debuffing, tanking (as in actual tanking while being a credible threat), or controlling. Your monk can do none of that.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-13, 04:32 AM
In a campaign with enemies who are mostly or entirely mindless, the Monk might, by charging into their midst, actually successfully draw their fire while the casters blast everything.

The problem is that it really requires the enemies to go out of their way to make you effective. Mindless enemies, maybe, but high-level campaigns against mindless enemies?

PId6
2009-09-13, 04:41 AM
You can stop a mindless enemy with Silent Image, so no, I don't think that's an effective use of a party slot.

VKO
2009-09-13, 04:53 AM
And what can a regular monk do in that situation? The kobold loses out on 4 guaranteed damage from his size and str penalty per attack, and while that does add up, with a +6 item boost to strength and an amulet of mighty strikes +5, you'll still deal 2d8+8 damage. On average per hit, it's not a lot. But there are tons and tons of tricks (Skill tricks especially) that can keep you at least somewhat viable.

Or don't take more than a -2 penalty on hits if you're worried about hitting, you'll still be better off than a dual-wielder.

If you're going to complain about 4 average damage going down the drain, then you might as well complain that everything you're fighting at high level will have DR/- and the monk's super cool class feature won't be able to do didly squat. The kobold might not be able to do damage, but at least he's getting ignored, and if he does get attack the creature wastes its attacks trying to hit you.

One option is the following:

On a turn against such a powerful monster, ready an action while standing next to the wizard to shove him away or try to cover him with your tiny body while the demon/dragon/whatever swings at him. Essentially, you jump in the way of an attack. Even if the monster gets a bonus to hitting you, thanks to your high AC you might be able to negate his attacks.

Besides, Might I add that Aid Another is useful, and that I recommended dipping into either swashbuckler before monk or taking fighter substitution levels.

We're also not talking about high level combat in every case, especially since D&D combat at high level basically depends on wizards getting their spells off.

Not everything has to be optimized, brah. I'm just saying, you get above average AC.

PId6
2009-09-13, 05:16 AM
And what can a regular monk do in that situation?
Nothing, that's kinda the point. I'd much rather go Tashalatora than regular monk.


Or don't take more than a -2 penalty on hits if you're worried about hitting, you'll still be better off than a dual-wielder.
Another woefully underpowered concept that does very little, as the CW Samurai shows. Not very representative of much.


If you're going to complain about 4 average damage going down the drain, then you might as well complain that everything you're fighting at high level will have DR/- and the monk's super cool class feature won't be able to do didly squat.
I do; monk is a terrible class. Certainly not contesting that.


On a turn against such a powerful monster, ready an action while standing next to the wizard to shove him away or try to cover him with your tiny body while the demon/dragon/whatever swings at him. Essentially, you jump in the way of an attack. Even if the monster gets a bonus to hitting you, thanks to your high AC you might be able to negate his attacks.
Cool, but not supported by the rules at all. Besides, if you're using your body to block blows for the wizard, you'd at least lose the benefit of Dex to AC, meaning the vast majority of your AC, from Dex and dodge, are ineffective. Your Con penalty, MAD, and average monk Hit Die means that your HP isn't really up to par either.


Besides, Might I add that Aid Another is useful, and that I recommended dipping into either swashbuckler before monk or taking fighter substitution levels.
Aid Another can be done similarly well by a low level hireling warrior or a summoned monster. And if you're using Aid Another, you're not using Combat Expertise. A swashbuckler dip does very little for the monk except increase your MAD; you'll get +2 or 3 to damage at best. I do not remember you mentioning fighter substitution levels, but I doubt that (or anything) would be particularly helpful to this build.


We're also not talking about high level combat in every case, especially since D&D combat at high level basically depends on wizards getting their spells off.
It's even worse at low levels; you have even lower attack, less BAB, and the penalties to damage hurt even more, not to mention MAD.


Not everything has to be optimized, brah. I'm just saying, you get above average AC.
Not everything has to be optimized, but everything should be able to contribute. My point was that having high AC alone isn't really useful for the party; you need to be able to do something else to actually make a meaningful contribution.

VKO
2009-09-13, 05:50 AM
At low level it's still fine. I don't know why in char op everything has to be 20th level. I've been playing for 6 years and I've played a total of two epic level games. Playing a slightly underpowered character is still fine. You don't magically break the chains of friendship in the group unless everyone's playing a druid, cleric or wizard.

So now that you've finally gotten to your point, agreeing that the monk sucks and can't contribute anyway, why were you bothering to point out the shortcomings of my suggested build in particular instead of just saying that monk sucks and saving yourself 1000 words?

Besides, if you really want to drive the DM insane at high levels, go ethereal, jump inside an enemy's stomach and start pummeling away at his organs. Max out escape artist and squeeze into his digestive tract, ripping out important bits and punching him all over.Then if he tries the unthinkable, to stab himself just to get to you, hop back into his stomach where you have some room to maneuver and watch him miss you, stabbing himself and wasting an action. I wonder where you should place the concentration check to cast a spell for having something rip apart your insides?

Since technically, the kobold's one of the smallest races out there I believe even rules as written you would retain your dex to AC in a creature's stomach, if you're not small enough reduce yourself, and then force the DM to ask themselves this: If they'll let the wizard use that staff of greater celerity, what's one less than a foot kobold jumping inside someone's stomach and digestive tract and rewiring their circuitry?

How does that sound for a meaningful contribution?

PId6
2009-09-13, 06:22 AM
It's not slightly under- :smallsigh: fine, whatever, monks suck. I guess we're done here.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-13, 12:17 PM
At low level it's still fine. I don't know why in char op everything has to be 20th level. I've been playing for 6 years and I've played a total of two epic level games. Playing a slightly underpowered character is still fine. You don't magically break the chains of friendship in the group unless everyone's playing a druid, cleric or wizard.
Monks don't do too well at low levels either.



Since technically, the kobold's one of the smallest races out there I believe even rules as written you would retain your dex to AC in a creature's stomach, if you're not small enough reduce yourself, and then force the DM to ask themselves this: If they'll let the wizard use that staff of greater celerity, what's one less than a foot kobold jumping inside someone's stomach and digestive tract and rewiring their circuitry?

How does that sound for a meaningful contribution?
Spelunking has been done before.