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Forbiddenwar
2009-09-09, 02:23 PM
question for 3.5 D&D

Going to be soloing against the party group with a VOP monk/rogue with invisible fist 5 levels higher.
Group consists of 4 lvl 5 characters, unoptimized:
Barbarian, cleric, Druid, and monk.

Assuming suprise round and beating init, who should the monk/rogue take out first? Second? Third? Last?

Debating between attacking the barb or druid first, then cleric, then monk. but not sure.

On a 1V4 fight, which class is more dangerous when given enough steam? I need to optimize my sneak attack targets.

Additional info: Druid won't have much wild shape options, strictly enforcing "familiar requirment" will probably only wild shape as a wolf.

Battle field: typical natural underground, low ceilings, lots of cover from cave formations.

Yukitsu
2009-09-09, 02:28 PM
Cleric, druid, barbarian, monk.

rezplz
2009-09-09, 02:30 PM
Well, if they're all unoptimized, then I kind of want to reccomend going for the cleric first. Chances are, if he isn't optimized he's going to be a heal-bot. Take out the cleric and they can't replenish their HPs.

Next, go for the druid. Druid's gonna have a couple bad spells to put you down, and being a secondary healer can get the cleric back up. You don't want that happening because then you have to start all over.

After that, take out the barbarian. It's gonna be dishing out lots of damage, most likely. A monk/rogue doesn't have much HPs.

Finally, go for the other monk. Before you do, if possible have them stare each other down. And then it is a REQUIREMENT that you play the mortal kombat theme song. If your guy loses to the party monk after taking out everybody else, then it'll be epic and be remembered for some time. :)!

Edit: Aaaaaaugh ninja'd. But the mortal kombat is still a requirement.

Wings of Peace
2009-09-09, 02:30 PM
I would say it depends on their skill level and your skill level. If they play casters Batman style like many char opers then kill the druid and then the cleric first. Druid has some aoe spells that can turn the environment against you greatly given the time. The cleric has some minor things but I wouldn't be as worried.
If they're mostly new to casters I would hit the barbarian first. If he doesn't die the casters both can heal so they will probably feel that's what they should do when really it's just preventing them from actually neutralizing you.

Croverus
2009-09-09, 02:30 PM
Take the cleric first so they lose any chances of healing. Druid and barbarian won't be too tough to hand becuase if Barbarian rages his AC drops meaning you hit him easier and can kill him fast. If the druid does wildshape like you said he is limited in options. Unless he has Wild Casting (He shouldn't at only level 5) then he's better of staying in his soft, fleshy humanoid form. Watch his spells, he will probably try to heal when the cleric goes down. The monk can be saved for last.

So Order (if barb rages):
1 Cleric
2 Barbarian
3 Druid
4 Monk

Order is barbarian is smart and doesn't rage:
1 Cleric
2 Druid
3 Barbarian
4 Monk

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-09, 02:31 PM
Cleric, druid, barbarian, monk.

I agree. Since the party is unoptomized, they'll probably rely on the cleric as a healbot. Destroy their healbot and strike fear into their hearts!

JackQ
2009-09-09, 02:32 PM
Cleric, Druid, Barb and then monk (probably multiple ninjas)

I would emphasize the goal should be to take out or shut down opponents quickly as your main problem will be one action vs. their 4 actions + animal companion per round.
Your post is a but unclear. Are you 10th level vs. their 5th level.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-09, 02:37 PM
Is there any way for your VOP monk/rogue to sneak attack after surprise and winning init?

Mando Knight
2009-09-09, 02:38 PM
Question: How's their sight? If you've got darkvision and a means to dispel their magical lights but they don't, they'll have to fumble around a bit before they can fight you on even terms. Then you can Stealth+Sneak Attack any of the targets, especially the Cleric (who's probably carrying the light spells), into oblivion.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 02:41 PM
You should first take out the party member of the opposite sex who has the highest Charisma.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-09, 02:41 PM
Is there any way for your VOP monk/rogue to sneak attack after surprise and winning init?

Invisible Fist ACF lets him turn invisible.

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 03:03 PM
Rough estimation:

Druid: Probably the most effective out of the bunch. Medium HP, impressive spells (what about his animal companion?), Wildshape. I'd take him out first, since he's likely to be taking the most effective actions against you while still being killable.

Cleric: This is a big one. If the Cleric is playing a Healbot, you obviously let him keep healing; his healing does next to nothing compared to your damage so you can just kill the contributing party members while he's being useless. Remember to always kill so they can't be healed from negative. However, if he knows what he's doing, he should definitely be your first target as he'll easily be the largest single source of various save-or-be-****ed effects, huge party boosts and even decent melee damage.

Barbarian: Probably the biggest singular source of damage, but also the highest HP. Due to the immense amount of damage it likely takes to kill him, I'd probably save the Barbarian for after the casters are down.

Monk: Unlike to actually do anything so I'd ignore him. The worst things he can try are trip/grapple/stun so as long as you out-Str him or have defenses vs. combat maneuvers and a decent Fort (or just good Touch AC), you'll be fine.

Telonius
2009-09-09, 03:15 PM
First: pickpocket the Cleric's Holy Symbol. (You're a Rogue, right?)
Second: sunder the Barbarian's sword.
Third: kill the druid's dog.
Fourth: kill the druid.
Fifth: dis-arm the Monk. (And I mean that literally).

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-09, 03:31 PM
First: pickpocket the Cleric's Holy Symbol. (You're a Rogue, right?)


Good idea, but cleric has 10+ holy symbols.
Out of all of the characters, the barbarian is the most optimized, power gamer, the rest are newbies.

Going for a nonlethal TPK so monk/rogue can question them. House ruled that the character can SA nonlethal. The M/R has been following them for a while and so can choose exactly where and when to do this encounter (probably right after another hard fight) when abilities have been expended, or at night when no one is sleeping in armor.

The idea is that I can probably take out 1 character before any action. Which one?

Leewei
2009-09-09, 03:32 PM
Speak to the party from the shadows. Tell them you will destroy them all, but you will first give them a chance to prepare. Wait while they buff up. Then give them a further 10 minutes per (their) level afterwards. Then attack.

If the Barbarian rages, use invisibility and Hide for a minute or so.

Make sure the DM understands what animal tricks are for in the description of Animal Companion. If the druid can't point to you and order his companion to attack, he'll need to use the Seek trick. It may take several rounds for puppy to get the point and start the hunt.

In case this happens, leave articles of your clothing scattered around the area to confuse the use of Scent.

The fight will play out along the following lines:

-PCs get excited and throw every short duration buff imaginable.
-PCs start to panic as buffs start to expire.
-The druid takes 20 on a Handle Animal skill check to "push" his Animal Companion to Seek or Track you.
-Buffs expire and you start to pick off the four PCs in a fashion similar to Predator.

Remember to use your stealth and mobility to the fullest extent possible. Eliminate any PC capable of spotting and reaching you first. The cleric may be the primary healer, but tricking him into throwing all spells as buffs will largely deplete his healing ability. If he has a wand, destroy it.

Sharkman1231
2009-09-09, 03:39 PM
First: pickpocket the Cleric's Holy Symbol. (You're a Rogue, right?)
Second: sunder the Barbarian's sword.
Third: kill the druid's dog.
Fourth: kill the druid.
Fifth: dis-arm the Monk. (And I mean that literally).

I second that idea, also, don't druids have components for spells too? (berries and such?)

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 03:45 PM
-The druid takes 20 on a Handle Animal skill check to "push" his Animal Companion to Seek or Track you.

Don't you think he'd have Track prepared? Either way, Invisibility Purge, Blindsight, Listening Lorecall, Faerie Fire (if the Druid catches a glimpse of you, that can GG the whole "stealth" plan) and the like present problems with the stealth plan unless the Monk/Rogue has Darkstalker. Does the party prepare such tools?

Guancyto
2009-09-09, 03:48 PM
I'll have to second the hit-and-run. If the Barbarian is optimized, he can take most of what you throw at him and dish out an exceptional beating. You may be 5 levels higher than them, but you also have d6/d8 HP and monk levels, so make it as difficult as you possibly can for them to pin you down.

Because if you let them surround you, the encounter is over. All four of them have strong fort saves, better HD than you (though not by much) and after the first couple of rounds you'll have trouble making sneak attacks.

Lamech
2009-09-09, 03:49 PM
Please note the druid can do this little thing called FLY. If you WTF PWN a party member the druid could escape. Then a level later drop spells from the sky and kill the VoP monk. Or just get a dire bat compain and drop spells from the sky a (day?) later.

Edit: Can the monk even catch the druid in wolf form? That druid is fully capable of flying if he has time to get a new animal and your monk... not so much.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-09, 04:56 PM
{Scrubbed}

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-09, 04:57 PM
I'll have to second the hit-and-run. If the Barbarian is optimized, he can take most of what you throw at him and dish out an exceptional beating. You may be 5 levels higher than them, but you also have d6/d8 HP and monk levels, so make it as difficult as you possibly can for them to pin you down.

Because if you let them surround you, the encounter is over. All four of them have strong fort saves, better HD than you (though not by much) and after the first couple of rounds you'll have trouble making sneak attacks.

Hard to surround someone with a +25 to tumble and invisibility.

vrellum
2009-09-09, 05:17 PM
Probably go for the cleric or druid first. Druid might be the best bet. He probably has a worse flat-footed AC. You (probably) won't be able to sneak attack the barbarian, so no need to waste your surprise round.

Rixx
2009-09-09, 05:24 PM
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheMedicFirst

Dienekes
2009-09-09, 05:33 PM
As you're only trying for knock outs and not kills, go for the Cleric.

Animefunkmaster
2009-09-09, 05:40 PM
Hard to surround someone with a +25 to tumble and invisibility.

I agree that heavy uses of invisibility will be necessary. However, tumble is not the end all be all since your spending your action to move out of a flank as opposed to flurry, stunning fist and sneak attack. I wouldn't be too worried being surrounded, I would be worried if in a single round each party member did something constructive (like summon, some battle field control, try to grapple, or charge with power attack).

I would go with a long haul type of tactic, attack the party where there is little around and then go invisible away or perhaps get someone else to start with the killing, wearing down the parties spells and rage. Then attack when you Know you have the advantage, night. You should have reasonable stealth to kill off each member without sounding an alarm or before the barbarian has a chance to do anything with his weapon.

I would go in the order of Druid>Barbarian>Cleric>Monk>Animal Companion

Guancyto
2009-09-09, 06:02 PM
Hard to surround someone with a +25 to tumble and invisibility.

Not really. With that modifier you can count on tumbling at full speed -or- through their square -or- through heavily obstructed areas, but not all three. If the Barbarian decides to rush you against a wall and one of the divine casters has See Invisibility or a bag of flour handy, they will take you apart very quickly.

For this reason, I would actually advise wearing down the Barbarian first. He's liable to have the lowest AC and highest movement, and every healing spell the Cleric uses on him is one save-or-lose that he can't target you with. He will have several, even at level five. Getting him to expend his rage and then hiding is just a bonus.

Also, what's your Escape Artist modifier?

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-09, 06:27 PM
Also, what's your Escape Artist modifier?

15. I like the idea of hitting them when asleep, after a long combat with another big nasty. The druid takes most watches being an elf. with her dismal spots, I can probably take out the Animal Companion, remove weapons and armor from the barbarian and cleric, then take out the druid. Barbarian, cleric then monk. What do you think? Also, how can you tell if someone is naturally asleep or unconscious from an attack, without trying to shake them awake?

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 07:03 PM
15. I like the idea of hitting them when asleep, after a long combat with another big nasty. The druid takes most watches being an elf. with her dismal spots, I can probably take out the Animal Companion, remove weapons and armor from the barbarian and cleric, then take out the druid. Barbarian, cleric then monk. What do you think? Also, how can you tell if someone is naturally asleep or unconscious from an attack, without trying to shake them awake?

...wait, Druid has a dismal Spot? How the F*** does a class with Wisdom as the only relevant stat, Spot in class and as a race with racial bonuses to the skill manage bad Spot?

Keewatin
2009-09-09, 07:42 PM
15. I like the idea of hitting them when asleep, after a long combat with another big nasty. The druid takes most watches being an elf. with her dismal spots, I can probably take out the Animal Companion, remove weapons and armor from the barbarian and cleric, then take out the druid. Barbarian, cleric then monk. What do you think? Also, how can you tell if someone is naturally asleep or unconscious from an attack, without trying to shake them awake?


Well most sleeping things if you hit them will wake up so if it does not react you probably knocked it out.

Also even without perception modifiers the animal comanion should have scent and the ability to notice you within 30 feet and pinpoint you within 5 feet. And you wont be able to sneak attack the barbarian unless he is immobilized, (yes he can comically avoid sneak attack damage while asleep :smalleek: )


EDIT: ^ even a character optimized for spotting has less potential modifiers then a character that is invisable and skilled at hiding.

Cheesegear
2009-09-09, 07:47 PM
...wait, Druid has a dismal Spot? How the F*** does a class with Wisdom as the only relevant stat, Spot in class and as a race with racial bonuses to the skill manage bad Spot?

They're even more un-optimised than we thought?

PinkysBrain
2009-09-09, 08:19 PM
It really depends on the spell list, but if they use mostly core spells then you have a much greater chance of running into battlefield control spells with the druid than the cleric ... making it impossible for you to get to them will be the caster's primary goal once you do ridiculous damage in the surprise round.

Flickerdart
2009-09-09, 08:29 PM
Is your goal to TPK, or to provide a fun and challenging encounter?

Korivan
2009-09-09, 08:34 PM
Cleric, druid, barbarian, monk.

though it depends on how unoptimised...but ya, take out the casters is typically the first thing you should always do.

awa
2009-09-09, 10:04 PM
well if the spot is bad enough you could do a sub dual coupdegrace attack on one of the sleeping characters likely removing them from he fight entirely. You could depending on your strength take out a charecter grab them and runaway with their unconscious body. personally i would target the druid or cleric first becuase if you are trying to subdue and not kill the party their ability to heal is going to be real annoying. personally after taking out the healers id run away and hide again depending on how many monk levels you have you should be faster then the pcs

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-09, 10:12 PM
...wait, Druid has a dismal Spot? How the F*** does a class with Wisdom as the only relevant stat, Spot in class and as a race with racial bonuses to the skill manage bad Spot?

she has a +3 from wisdom and a +2 from race. Compared to +20, it seems dismal.
She usually guards the sleeping because:
She is an elf and doesn't need to sleep for 8 hours
Her animal companion keeps a good watch.
Ah, how do I counter the animal companion (a wolf)

Raum
2009-09-09, 10:17 PM
@ the OP -
...The opponent is double the PCs' level, you're staging an ambush, and you're using SA to knock at least one out before they even know you're coming.

Why not just narrate it? "Bob jumps out of the shadows, knocks you silly, and calls your grandma names!" Or perhaps something slightly more serious. After all, there doesn't seem much point to rolling the dice if you're stacking the deck and forcing the conclusion you want.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-09, 11:45 PM
I was under the impression that a 5monk/5 rogue character was underpowered, and that a VOP was doubly so. But if this isn't the case then I'll change it to 3monk/2 rogue VoP character.

Eldariel
2009-09-10, 02:09 AM
They're even more un-optimised than we thought?

No but honestly, what do Druids spend their skillpoints on? Sure, Concentration, Knowledge (Nature) and Handle Animal, but after that? You start with 4+Int...

@OP: Well, if the Druid has no ranks in Spot (I've honestly never seen a Druid without Spot maxed...), then of course it's different. If his Spot were 14-15. it'd be a ton more relevant.

@Raum: A single opponent should be 4 levels higher than the equivalent party; as the opponent is specifically anti-optimized, 5 levels is very vindicated and as the opponent is a sneak, not a bruiser, he'll need surprise to stand a chance.


Anyways, the AC should be pretty weak on this level so ganking it early could be a good idea. Scent is one of the few ways outside spells the party has of easily spotting the Fist (when he's invisible...though you'll spend majority of the time visible and I don't think he has Hide in Plain Sight :smallfrown:).

PinkysBrain
2009-09-10, 02:33 AM
I was under the impression that a 5monk/5 rogue character was underpowered, and that a VOP was doubly so. But if this isn't the case then I'll change it to 3monk/2 rogue VoP character.
It is underpowered ... if you were a wizard 10 they'd all be dead by round 2, but that's neither here nor there.

You have AC ~24 which the barbarian won't hit even half the time and the monk will miss most the time. If you win initiative and get a full attack with sneak attack in you are guaranteed a kill, leaving you with only 1 real opponent (because of your AC).

oxinabox
2009-09-10, 02:33 AM
I'ld say get the cleric, stop healing.

however with a druid there it really depends on the enviroment.
Idealy if your fighting them in a metal box, then the duids battle field control is almost nothign and you just have to watch out for all his, Save or Suck vs living spells.

Also if the druid becomes a wolf, is it just the MM wolf, or has it had it's HD advanvanced as per MM rules to match the druid HD?
Cos it could be deadly then

Eldariel
2009-09-10, 02:48 AM
It is underpowered ... if you were a wizard 10 they'd all be dead by round 2, but that's neither here nor there.

You have AC ~24 which the barbarian won't hit even half the time and the monk will miss most the time. If you win initiative and get a full attack with sneak attack in you are guaranteed a kill, leaving you with only 1 real opponent (because of your AC).

Really, the AC only partially negates the party Monk and Wolf. If they're any smart, they'll probably be doing touch attacks (Trip, Grapple) anyways. And that's not to mention spells.

If you leave the Druid alive, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you got Faerie Fired the first time you come alive. At that point, you're really boned. This is one of the principal reasons I'd slay the Druid first. Depending on his spell choices, he's got a lot of effects that can really spoil the invisible-game and he's got his animal companion with scent; if the Druid dies, the AC will be far less effective as the Druid isn't around to tell it what to do.

Druid > Cleric > Barbarian > Monk seems like it if dealing non-lethal damage ('cause that means healing is a real pain in the butt as you can't knock people out so hard that they couldn't be healed right back). Alternatively, you could go for the AC first, but that might buy the party time to get into action; the Druid CAN'T miss his AC getting ganked.

Fitz10019
2009-09-10, 02:49 AM
Druids like Survival, too. Getting lost in the woods is very embarassing for them. And don't assume their getting all 4 skill ranks -- their Int might be low. "I've never seen...." I don't believe it.

Considering you'll be trying to hide, I think you should worry about the druid using SNA to bring in more scent users. Can you steal the druid's "sprig of mistletoe or holly"?

I disagree that, once a battle has started, an animal is significantly less effective without instructions.

Got any way to use Silence?

oxinabox
2009-09-10, 06:39 AM
Got any way to use Silence?
Rogue lvls should give you the UMD for a wand?

Druids should have good INT.
They use 2 stats:
Con for HP, Wis for bonus spells and save DC's.
There saves are all set by wildshape.
So str, dex are useless.
They'll be in animal form so Cha is useless.
therefore Int>0

of course these are unoptimised.
Just how unoptimised?
are we talking fighter with mulitple differnent wepon focuses, one in dagger the other in a weapon he doesn't possess?
I played my first fighter like that:smallredface:

Oslecamo
2009-09-10, 06:45 AM
Rogue lvls should give you the UMD for a wand?

Druids should have good INT.
They use 2 stats:
Con for HP, Wis for bonus spells and save DC's.
There saves are all set by wildshape.
So str, dex are useless.
They'll be in animal form so Cha is useless.
therefore Int>0


You know, some druids start below lv5, wich means they just can't drop their dex or risk a gruesome early death due to low AC.

Dex is also needed for many popular feats.

And hey, some druids like playing party face.

Eldariel
2009-09-10, 06:56 AM
Druids like Survival, too. Getting lost in the woods is very embarassing for them. And don't assume their getting all 4 skill ranks -- their Int might be low. "I've never seen...." I don't believe it.

Eh, Survival isn't really necessary. They get +2 to Survival-checks as a class feature and Knowledge: Nature adds another +2 in some situations. You can take 10 meaning you auto-make DC 15 not to get lost without any ranks with Wis 16. The only really relevant use for high Survival is tracking, which really isn't Druids' domain.

Spot, on the other hand, is pretty critical. And nobody is better at Spot & Listen than a Druid. Indeed, even Handle Animal isn't as critical; once you can take 10 to teach your AC tricks (means you need +6; you get +4 from it being your AC), you need no more. Pushing then requires Take 20, but c'est la vie. Even Knowledge: Nature isn't as important as Spot. Only Concentration takes priority (for obvious reasons).

This is, indeed, the first time I'm hearing of a Druid with poor senses.


Considering you'll be trying to hide, I think you should worry about the druid using SNA to bring in more scent users. Can you steal the druid's "sprig of mistletoe or holly"?

I disagree that, once a battle has started, an animal is significantly less effective without instructions.

The animal companion will default to the natural taught behaviour without any instructions. It won't be tracking/seeking the invisible/hiding attacker with scent, most likely, without instructions.

Likewise, it will probably give chase instead of staying with the party making separating it from the group and killing it alone pretty easy. All in all, it will most likely act in a much less efficient manner iwthout someone to guide it.

And yeah, SNAs are yet another good reason to take out the Druid first.

oxinabox
2009-09-10, 07:44 AM
You know, some druids start below lv5, wich means they just can't drop their dex or risk a gruesome early death due to low AC.

Dex is also needed for many popular feats.

And hey, some druids like playing party face.

All true in general, but true in this case?
Some driuds like to play genius, skill master.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-10, 11:31 AM
How unoptimized is the party? The druid put all her skills points in tumble, balance, knowledge nature, and heal. It took 6 game sessions to convince to put some in Concentration so her spells could actually be cast without being interupted. But hey, we're role players, not Roll players.

Godskook
2009-09-10, 12:01 PM
How unoptimized is the party? The druid put all her skills points in tumble, balance, knowledge nature, and heal. It took 6 game sessions to convince to put some in Concentration so her spells could actually be cast without being interupted. But hey, we're role players, not Roll players.

Can you get actual stats on these guys?

Tyndmyr
2009-09-10, 12:02 PM
Put the barbarian down, fast. He's the only one likely to do significant, rapid damage to you. Yes, he can be healed back up...but that means you've got one party member facedown, and two party members healing him. Even when he's healed, he's still prone. This means he's going to be spending half his time just getting back up.

A monk 5 levels below you should be pretty harmless, you should be able to knock him down at will, and take the occasional round hitting one of the healers. Hard to heal if being pounded, so the other one will invariably be trying to save them or the barb. Monk is last.

Animal companion is annoying but...it's well below you...how threatening is it? I would generally rate it as a lower threat than the PCs, so incap it at the end unless it has something special that might handicap you.

The above is for taking out a non-optimization heavy party, as you describe them. Powergamers, nail the druid first every time.

Fitz10019
2009-09-10, 12:31 PM
The animal companion will default to the natural taught behaviour without any instructions. It won't be tracking/seeking the invisible/hiding attacker with scent, most likely, without instructions.

Likewise, it will probably give chase instead of staying with the party making separating it from the group and killing it alone pretty easy. All in all, it will most likely act in a much less efficient manner iwthout someone to guide it.


If your goal is to kill the animal companion, then yes, killing the druid and then luring the animal away from the party will work very well. In this instance, he's out for the entire party, and I think the previous advice agrees that the animal is the last priorty. So while you work on the first four, the animal will be a constant nuissance (scenting, flanking, possibly tripping), even as it acts on instinct.

This lure-away tactic could be reason to re-prioritize the kills as: Druid, Cleric, Animal (lure away, and as a bonus wait for Barbarian's rage to expire), Barbarian, Monk. Not because the animal is the 3rd worst threat, but because killing it will not cost you attacks from the other two remaining threats (if you use the lure-away tactic).

Mongoose87
2009-09-10, 12:57 PM
How unoptimized is the party? The druid put all her skills points in tumble, balance, knowledge nature, and heal. It took 6 game sessions to convince to put some in Concentration so her spells could actually be cast without being interupted. But hey, we're role players, not Roll players.

There's a big difference between roleplaying and asking to be pwned. Not putting ranks into Concentration is the latter.

Eldariel
2009-09-10, 01:19 PM
How unoptimized is the party? The druid put all her skills points in tumble, balance, knowledge nature, and heal. It took 6 game sessions to convince to put some in Concentration so her spells could actually be cast without being interupted. But hey, we're role players, not Roll players.

I wouldn't say there's a difference between the two; you're doing both whenever playing D&D. But yeah, I can see how that would go. Cross-class Tumble & Balance aren't a bad investments really, but how the hell does she have her animal companion trained if she can't make the Handle Animal-checks to teach her tricks?

@Fitz: The point is not to kill them, but to knock them all unconscious. Still, the fundamentals are the same; divide and conquer, remain undetected and win. Again, taking out the casters is the trick for not getting pinpointed and out-actioned to death.

Guancyto
2009-09-10, 01:22 PM
But hey, we're role players, not Roll players.

It's going to bug me unless I say this: framing the dichotomy like that was clever. Once. In the 80s. :smallannoyed:

Anyway, you mentioned the Barbarian was the only one who was big on optimization. How smart is his character (I've seen some very Int-rich Barbarians), and how good is the player at tactics? Does he tend to take the lead during battle?

You may want to take him down first to keep him from coordinating their efforts, especially if the rogue/monk sees him doing so on other encounters. "Knock out the leader and let the rest of them mill about helplessly" is a thoroughly in-character strategy. And even aside from that, if the Druid has to be talked for weeks into taking Concentration, taking the Barbarian down would have a decent chance of stopping the grapples/trips/flour/readied actions/etc that would be most likely to beat you. "You can't ask them to do that, Larry, you're unconscious."

So yeah. If the Barbarian is a tactician and/or party leader, take him out first. If not, avoid him (he probably has bad reflex saves, even a basic tanglefoot bag can help keep him off you) while eliminating the Cleric. People around here are fearful of Druids and rightly so, but that one doesn't seem like much of a threat. :smalltongue:

@V Thank you! It's not you specifically, it just gets thrown around all the time.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-10, 02:55 PM
It's going to bug me unless I say this: framing the dichotomy like that was clever. Once. In the 80s. :smallannoyed:


Sorry, my only excuse was not being alive in the 80's I shall refrain from using it in the future.