[3.5] Need DM Advice - My players stay out!

[arguskos]

I know at least 4 of you now browse these boards. Stay the hell out, lest I hit you with the Nerf Cannon. You know I'm good for it too. :smallamused:

T, that means you.


You too, K.


Don't think you're exempt, A.


S. Gimme hug. Also, get the hell out.






C, if you actually FIND this, you can have a good time reading on. You'll never remember it anyways, Mr. I-Can't-Remember-How-To-Attack. :P


Is he gone? I hate that guy. No, really, I love my party, and actually, that's why I decided to give them all a prize of sorts. We're level 2 right now, having a damn good time (been a great first couple sessions) and I've decided to give everyone a kind of Legacy Weapon, but sans the crappy mechanics. What do I need from you? Advice on what to give them! Here's all the details I can think of:

Legacy Mechanics: No stupid attack/life/spell/save penalty crap. Instead of taking the Legacy feats, you perform the rites and GAIN the feat as a bonus. Also, Legacy Items can be anything, not just weaponry. In fact, I'd prefer it not to be weaponry.

Rules of Note: We don't use standard Wizards or Sorcs, nor do we use ToB.

Characters: Ah yes, the real meat of the issue. Names below are the character's names.


Ridgar - First up is Ridgar, and he's a doozy. He is a ghaele eladrin, thanks to the racial progressions in Savage Species (one of the few playable ones, actually). I houseruled he could use light armor, by the way, if we cared. He's been playing up the Chaos aspect, and plans to slowly fall from grace and dive into darkness as the game goes on. It's been going well so far. Luckily for him, his god (Xaos, god of chaos, like my creative names? :smallwink:) is rather forgiving (read: inattentive) so his non-Good transgressions have gone mostly unnoticed. My current thought is that I can give him some chance-based item, like a lesser deck of many things for him to play with. He'll love it out of character, but I'm not sure about IC and what the others will say. I know at least two others really dislike chaos items. Thoughts? Oh, yes, and Ridgar is our only divine character.
Ragorn - A new addition to our group, Ragorn is a rearranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99314) (read the link, it matters) and the main arcane power in the party. He's brash and impulsive, not super bright, but means well, and honestly tries to do good things. The player has shown a great interest in custom spellbooks, actually, and I was thinking I'd give him a unique spellbook that absorbs his own, and lets him do fun things with the book itself (cast from it like a scroll, prepare from it like normal, maybe channel his power through it, any other ideas you give me). Thoughts here?
Crazy Art - An artificer. Think Billy Mays meets D&D. Honestly, I am at a total loss for what to do for poor Art here. He's been nigh-useless so far, and I have no real idea on what to do for him, item-wise.
Lillith - A beguiler, and the sole evil member of the team (Art is CN), Lillith is a Disciple of Asmodeus in everything but name so far. She has a Brand of Evil on her back in Asmodeus' symbol, is scheming, backstabbing, and very very sneaky. Item-wise, I'm also at a loss here. I've been considering giving her a ruby rod imitation, but don't really know how to reproduce Asmodeus' signature toy without either making it crazily OP for the level or totally frikkin' useless. Help!
Baylor - Given the last member of the party, the fact that Baylor is a Dorf Paladin of the god of Dorfishness and Dorfs should spell the fuuuuuun times we've had so far with him and Lillith in the party. Honestly, Baylor is a LG Paladin of Vidar Gunnar (god of dwarvenkind) who is fairly bland, actually. He has a love of ale, his maul (Vidar's favored weapon), and his armor (he just secured some Mountain Plate... in 2-3 weeks gametime anyways). I've been thinking I'll give him a replica of Vidar's personal maul, but that seems like a cop-out, and I'd like to do something more meaningful. Thoughts on a legacy item for the dwarf paladin?


There you have it folks, everything you'll probably need to gimme some good, Playgroundy advice! Remember, the more custom, the better. I don't want suggestions on pre-existing Legacy weapons that fit, I want suggestions for cool new Legacy items for this specific group of players.

So, help?

[llamamushroom]

Well, for the artificer, a homunculus or very small golem could work, maybe with item-familiar-esque abilities?

For the Sneak, try focussing more on the illusion side of things. I'm not too sure about what legacy items do, but a trinket (ruby to fit with Asmodeus?) that grants very powerful illusion effects (illusions that hurt people but aren't quite there - WIS damage? Or the Ultimate Disguise (tm)) could work.

The paladin... without knowing more about the character, it's hard to come up with something meaningful, but if he/she's been playing it bland, it's probably safe to go with the maul.

[arguskos]

Oh dear! I should have considered that folk may not know what a Legacy Item even is! It's basically an item that "levels up" with you as you go through your adventuring career. You perform these neat little rituals and in so doing, you unlock bigger and better abilities for the object in question. It's a neat idea, actually.

As for your suggestions, I didn't even consider giving him a creature of some kind. That seems wise and a good decision. The beguiler probably would like some illusion based trickery object, but I am still veeery unsure of how to work it. Perhaps a piece of jewelry? A ring? I love the rod idea, but maybe a ruby ring would work better.... :smallconfused:

Lastly, Baylor. Ugh. Really, I want this guy to be more unique and interesting, though the player likes him bland, so it's all good I guess. Makes it hard to customize stuff though. I'll probably roll with the maul, I guess. I might also do something with ale and/or a holy symbol.

[Thomo]

As bland as you think the maul is, I feel that it is a very good choice for the paladin. Start it off with some minor enchantments (say have it count as a holy symbol as well as a bonus vs undead/unholy critters) and allow it to get progressively stronger as the paladins faith grows stronger - and should he, for some reason, fall - it loses a lot of, if not all, it's power.

And for Lillith - how about a ruby amulet that works in a similar way to the halflings gem in the Drizzt books (I just finished reading the lone drow novels) - it basically charms the victim into agreeing with/helping/doing what the owner wants. At later levels it can be used to cast blur/mirror image (representing illusion and trickster) and maybe summon some minor shades/shadows. Eventually it too could become a Unholy Symbol...

A little golem/mechanical companion sounds good for the artificer (I have a picture of one of those little mechanical cherubs that are prevelant in Warhammer/40k imagery). Something that gives him bonuses on item creation? maybe helps with disabling traps and opening locks etc...dunno.

As for the chaotic player - what you have sounds goods.

[PinkysBrain]

Ridgar - First up is Ridgar
Chaos items are annoying in combat, people use them to exclusion of doing something useful ... how about a deck of card he can use something like the Huckster from Deadlands reloaded. He plays a little minigame at the start of the day and depending on how well he does he gains item powers (lets say if he does really well he can pick the powers, if he does really bad he gets random powers and something in between).

Ragorn
Make it an intelligent spellbook which can eat scrolls and other spellbooks to add the spells to itself, perhaps let it cast one of it's listed spells a number of times a day on command (material components still have to be supplied of course).

Crazy Art
Artificers are always short action points for quickening infusions ... so definitely let him quicken infusions a number of times a day with it. Make it an eternal wand of orb spells.

[arguskos]

As bland as you think the maul is, I feel that it is a very good choice for the paladin. Start it off with some minor enchantments (say have it count as a holy symbol as well as a bonus vs undead/unholy critters) and allow it to get progressively stronger as the paladins faith grows stronger - and should he, for some reason, fall - it loses a lot of, if not all, it's power.
Hmm. I like this. I think I'll probably roll with it.


And for Lillith - how about a ruby amulet that works in a similar way to the halflings gem in the Drizzt books (I just finished reading the lone drow novels) - it basically charms the victim into agreeing with/helping/doing what the owner wants. At later levels it can be used to cast blur/mirror image (representing illusion and trickster) and maybe summon some minor shades/shadows. Eventually it too could become a Unholy Symbol...
Yeah, I'm leaning towards jewelry as well. I was thinking rod because she seems to really like her morningstar a lot, but an amulet is likely wiser.


A little golem/mechanical companion sounds good for the artificer (I have a picture of one of those little mechanical cherubs that are prevelant in Warhammer/40k imagery). Something that gives him bonuses on item creation? maybe helps with disabling traps and opening locks etc...dunno.
Hmm... that's actually a good idea. Perhaps a little "servo skull" type construct that helps him do item creation and research on items. Seems like a plan.


Chaos items are annoying in combat, people use them to exclusion of doing something useful ... how about a deck of card he can use something like the Huckster from Deadlands reloaded. He plays a little minigame at the start of the day and depending on how well he does he gains item powers (lets say if he does really well he can pick the powers, if he does really bad he gets random powers and something in between).
I've always enjoyed them, but I do understand this train of thought. And I kinda like your suggestion, so a little mini-game seems reasonable. It's hard to incorporate growth into though, but I guess it could get more powerful ups and downs as time goes on, at 20th becoming a true deck of many things perhaps.


Make it an intelligent spellbook which can eat scrolls and other spellbooks to add the spells to itself, perhaps let it cast one of it's listed spells a number of times a day on command (material components still have to be supplied of course).
This is basically what I was thinking. It seemed really fun and cool, and like something he'd like.


Artificers are always short action points for quickening infusions ... so definitely let him quicken infusions a number of times a day with it. Make it an eternal wand of orb spells.
He's taking Rapid Infusion ASAP and isn't a blastificer, so sadly, these aren't that great of ideas. Thanks though.

Thanks for all the ideas so far folks, keep 'em coming if you don't mind. :smallsmile:

[PinkysBrain]

The ECS already has a homunculus which can do item creation for him ... a legacy item which does the same thing seems a bit lame. How about just giving him a combat pet/mount which grows more powerful with levels? (Finally ending up with golem immunities.)

[Eldariel]

Instead of taking the Legacy feats, you perform the rites and GAIN the feat as a bonus.

I'd like to point out that that's how it works by default :smallwink:

[kestrel404]

RE: Legacy weapons - Sounds a lot like the way magic items work in the Earthdawn setting. Which is good, because I absolutely love ED magic.

So, as for what to give the characters, giving each one something customized to their needs is nice, but you also want to make it something that will be fun and interesting before anything else. Not so much just static bonuses, but give them powers and abilities that make them useful and interesting.

For Art:

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20090325
I really like the 'pocketwatch sized helper' clank from GG. It's basically a tiny-sized golem.
To start off, it will follow orders and it can grant the +2 'aid another' bonus on a lot of different skill checks. It has a fair number of HP, damage reduction, immunity to a couple of damage types (cold, necrotic, fire?), and spell resistance based on owner's level.
At a slightly higher level, you can command it to use 'Mend' (as the spell) as an at-will spell like ability. This takes a number of minutes based on how many size-categories larger than the golem the item is, and how severe the damage being mended. Mending a broken sword would take a minute, while mending a castle that was razed to the ground would take decades. The little guy also gets an upgrade - strength 18. Just because I'm laghing like crazy imagining it carrying bags 100x its own size around and otherwise acting as the party pack-mule. Additional hitpoints, higher damage resistence, and suddenly it's a credible threat in combat too (about range-animal-companion level, I think).
At mid-level, the tiny little guy would BUILD A FRIEND (this is straight out of the Girl Genius comic). Your tiny golem becomes a TINY GOLEM SWARM. It takes on all the properties of swarm, plus it will regenerate over time so long as at least one of them is 'alive'. The golem swarm would be moderately effective in combat. Mend time for the swarm is greatly reduced. Aid-another bonus from the 'swarm' increases (but to a reasonable degree).
At higher level, the golem swarm becomes capable of 'Forming voltron'. The tiny little guys lock onto one-another and turn into a single normal golem. This golem is both intelligent and capable in its own right, but still unswervingly loyal.


For Ridgar:
A mini-game item sounds cool, but might unnecessarily complicate things. A 'random effect' item is generally a bad idea. He's linked to the god of chaos and you want to give him something cool - I say give him a tiny piece of primal matter - the chaos-stuff which formed the material planes themselves.
Here's how it works:
To start out, a masterwork cloak. 1/day, it can be commanded to become some other mundane item (also masterwork quality) of a material of his choice. He want's an adamantium sword? It's an adamantium sword. He wants mithral full-plate armor? It's mithral full plate armor. He wants a horse? It's a statue of a horse (It's not that cool yet). The change is permanent until he orders it to be something new.
On an upgrade, it goes from 'masterwork' to +1d4. The bonus is set when he changes what it is. Note, he cannot tell it to be the same thing just for a re-roll on that bonus. It has to become a fundamentally different type of item. Also, the bonus degrades by +1 ever day (so he'll probably want to change what it is every couple of days).
At mid-level, it becomes +1d6 with a random elemental quality (Wood,Fire,Water,Ice,Wind,Air,Sonic,Electric,Earth ,Metal,Acid,etc.). What should it be today? A bow that deals extra cold damage, a set of lightning-resistent armor, an animated shield? Also at this level, it can become an animate object, such as a horse. Of course, it would be a +3 flaming animated horse statue, but he could ride it.
At higher level, the random bonus increases to +1d8, and he can choose the element it gains. It must be a different element on each change. He can also ask it to become one of a selection of wondrous items (portable hole, immovable rod, some other fun ones, nothing with charges or limited uses). It will stay in this form for up to 1d8 days before reverting back to a cloak.


For Ragorn:
You might think Ragorn would want the 'piece of elemental choas that can transform into whatever', right? It's part of his schtick? Nah, he can already do that in some ways. Far more interesting if he gets something new. I like the 'intelligent spellbook that eats scrolls' idea. Now, he's got a fixed spell-list just like a beguiler or warmage, so getting these spells added to his list would be a very powerful ability. Instead, how about the ability to 'transmute' scrolls?
When he gets it, the spellbook has 1 charge in it, and it's got a spell list in the index of all the 1st level spells. Every time he feeds it a scroll, it gains a number of charges equal to the spell level of the scroll, and the book 'learns' the spell on that scroll (adding it to the index). As a full-round action, he may go to the index of that spellbook, and select a spell whose level is less than or equal to the number of charges stored. The book flips to the correct page, and he may now cast that spell as though it were written on a scroll. This uses up an appropriate number of charges. Once the book has flipped to a page showing a spell, it can always be opened back up to that page until the spell is cast from it or a new spell is selected. That way, the owner of the book can basically bookmark a scroll to use in combat, without taking 2 rounds to cast it. Spells beyond the first used this way effectively take 2 rounds to cast from the book - this is for balance purposes later.
On an upgrade, he can, 1/day, swap one of his castable spells for one in the book that requires less charges. Basically, use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower level spell of any school. This is effectively spontaneous casting of any spell he's ever gotten a scroll for, which is why it's 1/day.
At mid-level, he can 1/day give up a spell to add charges to the book equal to 1/2 the spell's level (round down). He cannot charge the book beyond his caster-level in this manner (though he can with scrolls).
At higher level, he can apply any metamagic he knows to any spells cast from the book. This costs additional charges instead of taking up a higher level spell slot. Yes, this does mean he can metamagic a spell to a spell-slot he couldn't cast from - just remember to increase the casting difficulty as though it were a spell of the 'appropriate' level, and make him roll for it.


For Lilith:
Everyone is saying 'illusion buff' and 'jewelry'. I'm going to have to buck the consensus and say 'Musical instrument'. No, she's not a bard, but that's half the point - let her pretend to be one! Also, musical instruments have far more mythological punch than just what bards are ascribed as getting. For effect, make it a ruby flute. ;)
At startup, it grants 1/2 level bardic music progression. So, one bardic music use per two levels (round down, minimum effective level 1), the 1st level bard abilities, etc. As she levels, she gets the other bardic abilities as if 1/2 her levels were in bard (so the aid another song is granted at level 4 instead of 2, and so on). No ranks in perform are required for anything - the flute plays itself as long as she's got it to her lips.
On an upgrade, she gets bardic lore at character level, along with a telepathic connection to the flute (it whispers knowledge into her head) and the ability to read minds for bardic music uses (I forget the name of the spell that does this).
At mid-level, she gets to use bardic music from the wand to cast 'summon monster N' (where N is equal to 1/2 character level round up), limited to devils. Go book diving and fill the list with useful devils. (If the Pally objects, have the flute suggest the 'using evil for the purposes of good' argument. Also note that wizards do it all the time.)
At high-level, she may now use the flute to borrow Asmodeus's 'dominating aura' with a bardic music use.


And finally, for Baylor:
As a Dwarven paladin of the god of dwarves, I'd totally give him a magic weapon. And then give it powers that are mostly un-weapon-related.
When he picks it up, it doubles all of his racial bonuses (and penalties). He becomes an even dwarfier dwarf. Also, he gets a +4 bonus to Charisma for purposes of his class features (such as lay-of-hands and turn undead) - which basically negates his 'newly enhanced' racial charisma modifier. It also has the ability to summon a mug of cheap ale once every ten minutes. The mug dissapears after ten minutes as well, but the ale stays. This could lead to hijinks - which would be great. The weapon is treated as +1
When upgraded, he gains the benefits of all 3 levels of the Dwarven Racial Paragon class (except BAB, and the increase in saves is treated as a magic bonus). http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/unearthedParagon.html#dwarf-paragon, Also the weapon becomes a +2/+3. And the ale summoned by the weapon is upgraded to 'good ale', once every 5 minutes.
At mid-level, the maul is treated as a vorpal weapon, and ignores all hardness values (allowing it to bash through walls pretty easily). Yeah, it becomes a vorpal club. Oh, and the beer gets better (excellent ale or decent lager, once every minute).
At high level, he can 1/day call forth a powerful ally to aid him (he can summon a Solar. It looks like a pretty dwarven valkyrie). It becomes a +5 weapon. He gains the cleave and great cleave feats. And he can 'set for charge' with the maul as if her were wielding a lance. Also, he can generate 'excellent ale or lager' and once per day he can call forth Ambrosia - which is just really good beer that will sustain him as if he had eaten a full meal, and grants a +1 morale bonus for the next hour.


I'm not sure how many 'levels' of power these weapons are supposed to have, so you'll have to break up the individual bonuses and abilities (some may be harder to do this to than others).

[Kol Korran]

ok, some pretty good ideas have been said, i'll try to add on them or produce my own.

first of all, Ridgar: i think the "draw cards" at morn is an excellent idea. but how about this: the guy starts with but a few cards in his deck (i think about 4-6). every morning he rolls a dice and draws a card. this first card is a must. about 1/3 of the cards do good things, 1/3 of the cards bad things, and /13 of the cards do... odd things. the player can choose to draw more cards if he chooses, and the effects stack. however, with each card drawn the deck may suddenly close (use some random number) and not be open till the next day.
how does it level up? here is the cool thing- when ever a major event happens in the campaign, the deck gets cards added to it- some time good, sometimes bad, some times odd. the cards reflects the past occurances (for example if the players met a medusa, there can be a card of a gorgon that reduces the player's dex by 2-4 for the day, reduces his speed by 10 ft, and make him weigh a lot more- "turned" to stone). the further along you go, the more powerfull the cards.
a slight variation of this, which is more complex and adds a bit of bookekeeping, is that each card has 3 interpertations- good, bad, and odd. each day the player chooses 3 cards at random, and decides which will be good, which odd, and which bad. that could lead to some hillarious results, especially with new cards, where the players tries to guess the meaning.
for example with the medusa card: good= immune to petrification and has a stone skin effect on player. odd= the player's hair turns into snakes, and his skin to scales.

as to Lilith: i say don't give her an item at all! instead have her tattoo/ mark/ symbol manifest powers, and grow and change in form whenever it upgrades, slowly creeping over her back, and paerhaps her front, like a taint! it's more interesting, it's more "Evil" and it's far more personal!
several possible powers you can go with this: i'm thinking about either summoning devils, or alternetavely slightly turning into a devil (gaining some of their powers). good luck explaining this to the palading though. (how do you deal with this conflict in your party anyway?)
another way is just to have her manifest magical powers, the way Abberant marks do in Eberron. you can check the Dragonmarked book for more infor on that.

Ragorn: i would suggest also a special ink that binds with his skin and acts as a spellbook, on his skin (he won't lose it anyhow), but that might seem less special with lilith tattoo's in the game. if you do so, i suggest only one has such a thing. i'd actually suggest as a spell book a pair of glasses made from some strange arane glass- the glasses store every spells they see, and they can summon the spells to view. all other suggestions that have been said can be applied to the glasses as well, but here are a few more: the glasses gives the wearer new senses as he progresses (low light, darkvision, see invisible, true sight and so on), but may also give special attacks (like eyebite).
another idea, that is quite a bit out there, is a hive mind living spell book- think HEX from the discworld novles, only in miniature- Ragorn finds a container that contains a highly intelligent colony of magic insects. he converses with the queen who makes a deal with him- they will act as his aids and magical repository, if he feeds them, helps them on some odd "Tasks" (plot hooks coming up), and helps them grow in power. the "words" of the spell are comprised from the insects lining up in the shapes of arcane symbols.
again, most of what been said can be applied here, but you can add all kind of other cool stuff in terms of powers and upgrades: control the minds of lesser beasts (dominate/ charm of animals?), summon special swarm, the hive can learn to cast small spells on their own, and more.
the main thing here is dealing with a spell book who has a realy alien intelligence. could be fun, could be awekward, depending on your type of player.

i realy got nothing to add for the other two players. it would be nice if the dwarf had anything more other than the stereotypical background chosen for him, and realy any mroe info on art could be usefull, there are plenty types of artificers out there.

hope this helped,
Kol.

[arguskos]

kestrel: That's... all amazing!! Thank you so much! You too Kol, it's all excellent, thank you both so much.

Here are my plans, as they stand right now.

Art will be getting a kind of mechanical armor, something to protect him in combats and something that has lots of tools and crafting aids built into the arms and body of the armor, so he has an aid for crafting, disable device, and other tricks. It's kinda like your little golem idea, but made into a suit of artificer-friendly armor instead. It'll gain intelligence over time too.

Ridgar will likely be getting a deck of cards, almost EXACTLY like you suggested, Kol. I even have some ideas for cards! Thanks so much! I may also include some of kestrel's suggestions for effects. :smallamused:

Ragorn will likely get a spellbook that can eat scrolls at first, and let him switch a prepared spell out for something else 1/day. It'll grow into being able to cast spells on it's own 1 or 2/day, gaining a bunch of cool thematic effects (like flight, weather immunity, other stuff) and can swap more of his spells each time it levels. It's nothing flashy, but he'll LOOOOVE it. I might also go with the "Hive Mind" idea Kol made, but I'm undecided right now.

Lillith... is hard. I was toying with the Ruby Rod idea, decided it was good, and took from both of you folks for how it works. Here's the deal. She'll get a lesser ruby rod that REPLACES her Evil Brand. It functions as a mark for the purposes of that feat, and gives her bonuses on Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate against devils. It'll later give her abilities to deal with non-devils with social skills, and let her summon devils, along with see the misdeeds of others, so she can use that knowledge to manipulate and control them. The final trick is that she will be able to appear like other characters, and mimic their powers just a bit, so as to slip into and out of high society better.

Baylor will be getting that maul idea you tossed out there kestrel. I basically wanted something like that for him, and so, that's what he'll get. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you all so much!! Everyone's ideas have been excellent.