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quick_comment
2009-09-09, 11:10 PM
Would wings of cover protect you from disjunction?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-09, 11:15 PM
Would wings of cover protect you from disjunction?

It blocks LoE entirely. MDJ would hit the spell, and only that spell's effect would be negated (seeing as MDJ doesn't continue past a blocked LoE and has a duration of Instantaneous).

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-10, 05:16 AM
No, it doesn't block. Wings of cover only block LoE for single-target spells. Against area spells, they merely give a cover bonus to reflex saves-which does not hinder the Disjunction at all.

Cyclocone
2009-09-10, 05:29 AM
No, MDJ is a Burst, so LoE does stop it.
It wouldn't stop Fireball, since it is a Spread.

Longcat
2009-09-10, 05:34 AM
The only spells known to block Disjunction would be Antimagic field and Esoteric Aegis.

Myou
2009-09-10, 05:41 AM
The only spells known to block Disjunction would be Antimagic field and Esoteric Aegis.

And now Wings of Cover. Specific trumps general.

Where is Esoteric Aegis from ayway?

Bayar
2009-09-10, 05:47 AM
Reason to play a sorcerer with Disjunction learned.

Longcat
2009-09-10, 05:48 AM
And now Wings of Cover. Specific trumps general.


Well, it's debateable whether Wings of Cover block out an area effect.


Where is Esoteric Aegis from anyways?


It's an epic spell. I've seen it used somewhere on the Dicefreaks boards, but I'm not sure where it's from. Basically, it adds +20 to the DC for the purpose of dispelling your spells, and makes you immune to Disjunction.

Eldariel
2009-09-10, 05:50 AM
It's an epic spell. I've seen it used somewhere on the Dicefreaks boards, but I'm not sure where it's from. Basically, it adds +20 to the DC for the purpose of dispelling your spells, and makes you immune to Disjunction.

Sounds like a custom epic spell. It shouldn't even require much mitigation. Much cheaper than the "Be Immune To All Level 9 And Under Spells" Ward which is also perfectly doable with exactly 0 assistant casters.

Myou
2009-09-10, 05:54 AM
Well, it's debateable whether Wings of Cover block out an area effect.

Disjunction is a burst. A I understand it, Wings of Cover blocks bursts.


It's an epic spell. I've seen it used somewhere on the Dicefreaks boards, but I'm not sure where it's from. Basically, it adds +20 to the DC for the purpose of dispelling your spells, and makes you immune to Disjunction.

Ah, so it doesn't exist. :smalltongue:

Milskidasith
2009-09-10, 05:54 AM
Yeah, but you need to dismiss and recast that ward just to keep your buffs up (or just make all the normal buffs into epic buffs and cast them.)

It's much easier just to create a specific epic ward against disjunction, AMF, and anything that can really harm you.

Longcat
2009-09-10, 05:59 AM
Disjunction is a burst. A I understand it, Wings of Cover blocks bursts.


Actually, it only blocks LoE to single target attacks or attack spells. Against any area effects, it simply grants a bonus on AC and reflex saves. Furthermore, it's debateable whether Disjunction counts as an attack spell or not.

Myou
2009-09-10, 06:03 AM
Actually, it only blocks LoE to single target attacks or attack spells. Against any area effects, it simply grants a bonus on AC and reflex saves. Furthermore, it's debateable whether Disjunction counts as an attack spell or not.

All spells cast by an enemy to effect you are attacks.

WoC blocks LoE, thus is blocks bursts.

Longcat
2009-09-10, 07:47 AM
WoC blocks LoE, thus is blocks bursts.

According to RAW, it only blocks LoE against single target spells or attacks. Area effects aren't single target.

Myou
2009-09-10, 08:14 AM
According to RAW, it only blocks LoE against single target spells or attacks. Area effects aren't single target.

Burst != Area

Tshern
2009-09-10, 08:16 AM
The various Resilient sphere's you can center on yourself block MDJ as well.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-10, 08:38 AM
According to RAW, it only blocks LoE against single target spells or attacks. Area effects aren't single target.

No, according to RAW it grants you total cover against any spell or attack, and Total Cover blocks line of effect.

This means that no spell can target you that requires line of effect, such as all bursts.

One the other hand, if an area spell does not require line of effect, it grants the total cover bonus to saving throws or AC.

Surgo
2009-09-10, 08:39 AM
I believe Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil can block a disjunction as well. Hurray! (Not a spell however.)

Tshern
2009-09-10, 08:42 AM
I believe Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil can block a disjunction as well. Hurray! (Not a spell however.)
The same way you could avoid Disjunction with Contingencies and different forms of immediate action counterspelling. There certainly are ways to avoid it. Anima Mage, too, gets a way to avoid it. Too bad being flat-footed prevents you from taking immediate actions. Luckily Anima Mages with 9th level spells ought to have Foresight persisted anyway.

Cyclocone
2009-09-10, 08:53 AM
According to RAW, it only blocks LoE against single target spells or attacks. Area effects aren't single target.

Actually it grants you cover against any *single* attack, i.e. stops a charge, but not a full attack etc.

IIRC, the spell description says something like:


Your evoked wings grants you cover against a specific attack

Longcat
2009-09-10, 09:08 AM
No, according to RAW it grants you total cover against any spell or attack, and Total Cover blocks line of effect.




The wings of force last
just long enough to disrupt your foe’s
line of effect to you, providing you
total cover against a single attack with
a weapon, spell, or psionic power.


Emphasis mine.



Your foe could choose to attack
the area in which you have taken
cover with an area attack (such as a
fireball spell). In this case, you gain a
+8 bonus to AC (if applicable) and a
+4 bonus on Refl ex saves.


The question is, does Disjunction count as an area attack? I'm inclined to say yes, but feel free to point a rules reference that proves the contrary.

Bayar
2009-09-10, 09:08 AM
Actually it grants you cover against any *single* attack, i.e. stops a charge, but not a full attack etc.

IIRC, the spell description says something like:

A sword attack is a specific attack. It grants you cover against a sword attack, ergo it grants cover a sword full attack. Or so I read it.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-10, 09:23 AM
The question is, does Disjunction count as an area attack? I'm inclined to say yes, but feel free to point a rules reference that proves the contrary.

That's... not what it says though. It says your foe could choose to attack the area you're in. Disjunction doesn't target an area, it's a burst that effects "all magical effects and magic items within a 40 ft. -radius burst"

It doesn't target the area, but magical effects and items inside of the burst.

Also, I just noticed the section of Wings of Cover which mentions this specifically says "the area in which you have taken cover", cover is specifically there but an attack against the area (such as a fireball spell, which spreads around cover) occurs you receive the AC and reflex bonuses.

Lysander
2009-09-10, 09:29 AM
Here's how I interpret it. Disjunction can't work on a target behind total cover. So a brick wall could stop it. However Wings of Cover themselves are magical evoked force. So the burst disjuncts them, and then disjuncts you. Cover can only protect you from disjunction if the cover itself is immune to disjunction.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-10, 09:32 AM
C'mon people. It says:

Area: All magical effects and magic items within a 40-ft.-radius burst

So it's an area attack. It doesn't even have a "target" line so even if you wanted to target it for some reason, you could not do it.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-10, 09:43 AM
Here's how I interpret it. Disjunction can't work on a target behind total cover. So a brick wall could stop it. However Wings of Cover themselves are magical evoked force. So the burst disjuncts them, and then disjuncts you. Cover can only protect you from disjunction if the cover itself is immune to disjunction.

MDJ doesn't work in sequence, it works simultaneously. If an object isn't affected due to another spell's ability, and that spell is dispelled when MDJ hits it, the object is unaffected because MDJ has all ready resolved.


In other words, it says Duration: Instantaneous for a reason.

Surgo
2009-09-10, 09:45 AM
Target line or not, it says it's a burst -- which does not work against someone with total cover. Which Wings of Cover provide.

Random832
2009-09-10, 09:49 AM
Area: All magical effects and magic items within a 40-ft.-radius burst


A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

The defense rests.

Optimystik
2009-09-10, 09:57 AM
The question is, does Disjunction count as an area attack? I'm inclined to say yes, but feel free to point a rules reference that proves the contrary.

It is, but it's a burst, not a spread as others have mentioned.


Burst, Emanation, or Spread
Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

So it is an area attack, but gets blocked by wings of cover as noted. A cone attack is also an area attack, but would also be blocked.

You can also protect adjacent allies as you get higher in levels. Very nice!

Lysander
2009-09-10, 10:14 AM
All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.

Wings of Cover is a magical effect. Therefore it is disjoined.


MDJ doesn't work in sequence, it works simultaneously. If an object isn't affected due to another spell's ability, and that spell is dispelled when MDJ hits it, the object is unaffected because MDJ has all ready resolved.


In other words, it says Duration: Instantaneous for a reason.

Take an anti-magic field as a precedent. If an anti-magic field is disjoined anything inside the field is also disjoined. Therefore if wings of cover are disjoined anything they protected should also be disjoined.

Duration Instantaneous doesn't mean no time passes whatsoever, it just means there's no ongoing duration. Fireball is an instantaneous spell, but there still is that brief period of time where you fire the bead, it streaks towards the target, and then explodes.

Also, disjunction doesn't stop at the first target in a line. If you line up ten magic items in a single file, stand at the head of the line and cast disjunction, the mdj doesn't stop with the first item. It goes through and disjuncts each item. If it can go through magic items or people to disjunct what's behind them, it could also disjunct it's way through a spell.

Yora
2009-09-10, 10:28 AM
It would help a lot if someone would quote the line that says that it works only against single target effects. If that line exists.

Surgo
2009-09-10, 10:33 AM
Take an anti-magic field as a precedent. If an anti-magic field is disjoined anything inside the field is also disjoined. Therefore if wings of cover are disjoined anything they protected should also be disjoined.
Not only is this a specific exception in the spell, it doesn't even make sense as a comparison: an antimagic field does not provide full cover.

Cyclocone
2009-09-10, 10:36 AM
Wings of Cover is a magical effect. Therefore it is disjoined.

Which doesn't matter since it still manages to provide cover simply by being cast.


Take an anti-magic field as a precedent. If an anti-magic field is disjoined anything inside the field is also disjoined. Therefore if wings of cover are disjoined anything they protected should also be disjoined.

That's not how the rules work. As a general rule, an instantaneous effect can't continue past an obstacle that stops it, even if the effect manages to destroy the obstacle. If MDJ trumped this, it's entry would specify it, like fireball's entry does. Specific Trumps General.


Duration Instantaneous doesn't mean no time passes whatsoever, it just means there's no ongoing duration. Fireball is an instantaneous spell, but there still is that brief period of time where you fire the bead, it streaks towards the target, and then explodes.

Instantaneous means precisely that: Instantaneous.
IF instantaneous was an actual duration, you would be able to persist the likewise instantaneous Heal and Teleport.


Also, disjunction doesn't stop at the first target in a line. If you line up ten magic items in a single file, stand at the head of the line and cast disjunction, the mdj doesn't stop with the first item. It goes through and disjuncts each item. If it can go through magic items or people to disjunct what's behind them, it could also disjunct it's way through a spell.

Unless the first item happened to provide total cover; like, say, a magical tower shield would.


This is not 'Nam. This is DnD. There are rules.

Myou
2009-09-10, 10:41 AM
It would help a lot if someone would quote the line that says that it works only against single target effects. If that line exists.

It doesn't exist.

Wings of Cover; ... wings grant cover against a specific attack. ... creating a
hemispherical barrier ... providing you total cover against a single attack with
a weapon, spell, or psionic power.

It blocks Disjunction, since Disjunction is an Instantanious Burst. No question, no argument possible. :smallsmile:

Bayar
2009-09-10, 10:42 AM
No question, no argument possible. :smallsmile:

But of course, this is the internet, so someone will question and argue against it.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-10, 10:51 AM
Take an anti-magic field as a precedent. If an anti-magic field is disjoined anything inside the field is also disjoined. Therefore if wings of cover are disjoined anything they protected should also be disjoined.


Antimagic Field doesn't block LOE. So not a precedent.

Lysander
2009-09-10, 11:01 AM
It seems very unlikely that a 2nd level magical barrier with a limited duration could block a 9th level spell that dismisses all magic. Can someone post the exact text of Wings of Cover?

Bayar
2009-09-10, 11:05 AM
It seems very unlikely that a 2nd level magical barrier with a limited duration could block a 9th level spell that dismisses all magic. Can someone post the exact text of Wings of Cover?

Oh yeah, and Detect magic cannot detect invisible things because it is a cantrip.

Spell levels dont work that way !

Myou
2009-09-10, 11:09 AM
But of course, this is the internet, so someone will question and argue against it.

But we will know that they are wrong. :3


It seems very unlikely that a 2nd level magical barrier with a limited duration could block a 9th level spell that dismisses all magic. Can someone post the exact text of Wings of Cover?

Read my last post.

lsfreak
2009-09-10, 11:09 AM
A sword attack is a specific attack. It grants you cover against a sword attack, ergo it grants cover a sword full attack. Or so I read it.

It specifically states that it only stops the first attack during a full attack and that the creature is free to continue attacking or switch to another target. That part just wasn't quoted.

Lysander
2009-09-10, 11:16 AM
The problem is, I don't view the burst as instantaneous any more than an explosion is instantaneous. It still needs time to burst forth. Even light takes time to burst out of a lightbulb, just a very small amount of time.

For example, Dispel Magic is also instantaneous. Would Wings of Cover block a targeted Dispel Magic?

Myou
2009-09-10, 11:21 AM
The problem is, I don't view the burst as instantaneous any more than an explosion is instantaneous. It still needs time to burst forth. Even light takes time to burst out of a lightbulb, just a very small amount of time.

Then you are wrong. :smallsigh:

Bayar
2009-09-10, 01:12 PM
The problem is, I don't view the burst as instantaneous any more than an explosion is instantaneous. It still needs time to burst forth. Even light takes time to burst out of a lightbulb, just a very small amount of time.

RAW does not work that way dammit !

Optimystik
2009-09-10, 01:17 PM
For example, Dispel Magic is also instantaneous. Would Wings of Cover block a targeted Dispel Magic?

How the hell do you target someone with total cover?

Bayar
2009-09-10, 01:30 PM
Here is how Wings of Cover supposedly work from an In-game perspective: bad guy targets you with an attack. You have an instant cast spell (if you play card games, you get the reference) that creates an invisible barrier that protects you as if it was an invisible wall.

When you are behind a wall, your enemies dont have LoE. When you cast the spell, your enemies dont have LoE. You get the untargettable ability (if you play WoW the cardgame, you know what I mean).

ericgrau
2009-09-10, 04:19 PM
Hmm, since disjunction is a burst, does that mean you could block it with any old interposing mundane object? A tower shield?

Doc Roc
2009-09-10, 04:22 PM
Actually, thanks to poor wording, Dispelling Screen and its variant block MDJ.
As do prismatic walls or spheres.
Ring of Spell battle lets you re-aim it, if you have an affable GM.

Optimystik
2009-09-10, 04:28 PM
Hmm, since disjunction is a burst, does that mean you could block it with any old interposing mundane object? A tower shield?

Or a wall? Slamming the door as an immediate action (if you can do that somehow)? Why not?

Doc Roc
2009-09-10, 04:29 PM
Or a wall? Slamming the door as an immediate action (if you can do that somehow)? Why not?

Oh! Sometime, remind me to tell you about my Stay At Home Mage.

Lysander
2009-09-10, 04:44 PM
Hmm, since disjunction is a burst, does that mean you could block it with any old interposing mundane object? A tower shield?

Tower Shields specifically let spells through:


The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding.

Maybe if it was on a rack though and you were just standing behind it. If you aren't holding it you should be fine, though that makes no sense.

NEO|Phyte
2009-09-10, 04:50 PM
It doesn't exist.

Wings of Cover; ... wings grant cover against a specific attack. ... creating a
hemispherical barrier ... providing you total cover against a single attack with
a weapon, spell, or psionic power.

It blocks Disjunction, since Disjunction is an Instantanious Burst. No question, no argument possible. :smallsmile:
There's plenty of argument possible.

Your foe could choose to attack
the area in which you have taken
cover with an area attack (such as a
fireball spell). In this case, you gain a
+8 bonus to AC (if applicable) and a
+4 bonus on Refl ex saves.
Was quoted earlier in the thread, from what I'm assuming is the description of the spell. Note the bolded text.


Mage’s Disjunction
Abjuration
Level: Magic 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: All magical effects and magic items within a 40-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No
Again, note the bolded text.

"An area attack." Not "an area attack that can bypass Total Cover (which, incidentally, a Spread can only do if your Total Cover is from, say, being right around a corner from the point of origin)," "An area attack." You are SPECIFICALLY able to use area attacks against a user of Wings of Cover, though Mr. WoC gets a bonus to AC and Reflex. Not that either are useful against a Disjunction.

Of course, if that bit of text ISN'T from the description of Wings of Cover, I'm not entirely sure where it's from or why it's in the thread.

Kylarra
2009-09-10, 04:56 PM
Wings of cover has a very specific qualifier, which may or may not be applicable.

"If your foe is about to attack you with a melee, ranged, spell, or psionic attack, you can cast this...

Now arguably, Mage's Disjunction is not attacking you per se, but an area you happen to be standing in.

Optimystik
2009-09-10, 05:01 PM
Oh! Sometime, remind me to tell you about my Stay At Home Mage.

*pulls up a chair*


"An area attack." Not "an area attack that can bypass Total Cover (which, incidentally, a Spread can only do if your Total Cover is from, say, being right around a corner from the point of origin)," "An area attack." You are SPECIFICALLY able to use area attacks against a user of Wings of Cover, though Mr. WoC gets a bonus to AC and Reflex. Not that either are useful against a Disjunction.

Of course, if that bit of text ISN'T from the description of Wings of Cover, I'm not entirely sure where it's from or why it's in the thread.

No.


A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

WoC blocks Line of Effect, therefore the Disjunction stops there because it is a burst, not a spread like Fireball is.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-10, 05:06 PM
There's plenty of argument possible.

Was quoted earlier in the thread, from what I'm assuming is the description of the spell. Note the bolded text.


Again, note the bolded text.

"An area attack." Not "an area attack that can bypass Total Cover (which, incidentally, a Spread can only do if your Total Cover is from, say, being right around a corner from the point of origin)," "An area attack." You are SPECIFICALLY able to use area attacks against a user of Wings of Cover, though Mr. WoC gets a bonus to AC and Reflex. Not that either are useful against a Disjunction.

Of course, if that bit of text ISN'T from the description of Wings of Cover, I'm not entirely sure where it's from or why it's in the thread.

You're making me bust out the RC and RotD.


If your foe is about
to attack you with a melee, ranged,
spell, or psionic attack, you can cast
this spell immediately, creating a
hemispherical barrier (or a spherical
barrier if you are not standing on
solid ground) of force shaped like
dragon wings. The wings of force last
just long enough to disrupt your foe’s
line of effect to you, providing you
total cover against a single attack with
a weapon, spell, or psionic power.
Your foe’s fi rst attack in this round
cannot be made and is wasted against
you, though he could decide to take
any other action, including choosing
to attack one of your allies instead, or
take a full attack action that grants
him additional melee attacks against
you in this round (if your foe is of
high enough level to have additional
attacks). The wings unfurl and then
dissipate an instant later.
Your foe could choose to attack
the area in which you have taken
cover with an area attack (such as a
fi reball spell). In this case, you gain a
+8 bonus to AC (if applicable) and a
+4 bonus on Refl ex saves.


Line of effect tells you whether an effect, such as an explosion,
can reach a particular target. A line of effect is a straight,
unblocked path that indicates what an ability, effect, or spell
can affect. A solid barrier cancels line of effect. Fog, darkness,
and other factors that limit normal sight don’t block
line of effect.
You must have line of effect to any target that you cast
a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an
effect. You must have line of effect to the point of origin of
any spell you cast, such as the center of a fireball. A burst,
cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area,
creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its
origin—a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped
burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s
point of origin.
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square
foot through it doesn’t block a spell’s line of effect. Such an
opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the
hole is no longer considered a barrier for the purpose of a
spell’s line of effect.



Area: All magical effects and magic items within a 40-ft.-radius burst

The radius of MDJ cannot go around a spherical formation that blocks Line fo Effect to those inside it, and even the hemisphere provides total cover and blocks LoE from all sides.

Indisputable proof that MDJ cannot break WoC.

Yukitsu
2009-09-10, 05:08 PM
Wings specifies something for area attacks, however. By doing so, it violates the standard, and specific does beat standard.

Bit unclear however, and because I hate disjunction, I'd just say wings works, and be done with it.

Doc Roc
2009-09-10, 05:12 PM
Hey Sinfire, I agree with you. BUT Let me make your head explode!

"What is solid in this context?"
:smallwink:

NEO|Phyte
2009-09-10, 05:13 PM
You're making me bust out the RC and RotD.








The radius of MDJ cannot go around a spherical formation that blocks Line fo Effect to those inside it, and even the hemisphere provides total cover and blocks LoE from all sides.

Indisputable proof that MDJ cannot break WoC.

And your proof ALSO means that Fireball, the EXAMPLE AREA ATTACK, can't, because a spread STILL needs to be able to reach a point where it DOES have LoE.

Plus, as Yukitsu (and I) said, Wings of Cover has specific rules for area attacks, which trumps the general rules for such.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-10, 05:15 PM
Wings specifies something for area attacks, however. By doing so, it violates the standard, and specific does beat standard.

Then it would be the editor's fault for not removing it, as you cannot cast a spell into an area you do not have line of effect to. Even rays, the orbs of X spells, and so on follow this rule.



Hey Sinfire, I agree with you. BUT Let me make your head explode!

"What is solid in this context?"

The books being thrown at the writer's head. :smallbiggrin:

Arundel
2009-09-10, 05:23 PM
I concur with the WoC blocks MDJ crowd. It appears to me that since the spell provides total cover from any one attack it would stop a MDJ, since that is stopped by total cover. The main argument against this theory is an example of trying to apply the laws of physics to D&D. It doesn't happen.

There are no "instantaneous" effects in reality. That point I accept. There is however also momentum in reality, a concept absent in D&D. Honestly, we're debating the use of magic, defined as

the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature
Which means to me: NOT REALITY!

So a MDJ would destroy the wings (an instant before they natural dissipate) and the sorcerer (presumably as well as all his items) would be unbroken.

Now I have to go make an evil artifact that can cast WoC at will for my characters BBEG.

Yukitsu
2009-09-10, 05:45 PM
I concur with the WoC blocks MDJ crowd. It appears to me that since the spell provides total cover from any one attack it would stop a MDJ, since that is stopped by total cover. The main argument against this theory is an example of trying to apply the laws of physics to D&D. It doesn't happen.

There are no "instantaneous" effects in reality. That point I accept. There is however also momentum in reality, a concept absent in D&D. Honestly, we're debating the use of magic, defined as

Which means to me: NOT REALITY!

So a MDJ would destroy the wings (an instant before they natural dissipate) and the sorcerer (presumably as well as all his items) would be unbroken.

Now I have to go make an evil artifact that can cast WoC at will for my characters BBEG.

Actually, the main contention is that the specifics of the spell use different mechanics for any area attack. Whether or not they did this intentionally or through error is a better topic of conention.

ericgrau
2009-09-10, 06:00 PM
Tower Shields specifically let spells through:
Targeted spells, not area, and only if the shield is targeted, as explained in the context of that rule.

As for using a slammed door, just ready an action to slam a door if anyone tries casting an area spell (which you'd recognize with a spellcraft check).

Lysander
2009-09-10, 07:05 PM
Your foe could choose to attack
the area in which you have taken
cover with an area attack (such as a
fi reball spell). In this case, you gain a
+8 bonus to AC (if applicable) and a
+4 bonus on Refl ex saves.

That seems pretty straightforward. Disjunction is an area effect. "Your foe could choose to attack the area." It doesn't say "spreads" it says "area."

The other problem with Wings of Cover, even if it could block mdj is this:



If your foe is about
to attack you with a melee, ranged,
spell, or psionic attack, you can cast
this spell immediately,

Your foe’s first attack in this round
cannot be made and is wasted against
you, though he could decide to take
any other action, including choosing
to attack one of your allies instead, or
take a full attack action that grants
him additional melee attacks against
you in this round (if your foe is of
high enough level to have additional
attacks).

So you can't throw up Wings of Cover in response to an attack, you can only throw it up at the start of an enemy's turn to block their first attack in case they choose to make one. And only the first attack is blocked.

So technically, an enemy could throw a quickened Ray of Frost at you and that would use up the Wings of Cover and THEN use Mage's Disjunction with no impediment.

Signmaker
2009-09-10, 07:15 PM
So technically, an enemy could throw a quickened Ray of Frost at you and that would use up the Wings of Cover and THEN use Mage's Disjunction with no impediment.


Makes sense.

Of course, that would involve knowledge beforehand of WoC which is either cause you're in midfight, or you knew about person having the spell in the first place. In the latter, there are probably better spell options than burning your swift action targeted spell. In the former, caster fights should not take so long traditionally. =P

While I'm a supporter of the MDD>WoC side (for obvious 'RAW is unusably silly' reasons), I haven't seen a good case for it yet. The best MDJ can do is cite the abnormal phrasing of the spell, namely 'single attack' (does that mean just one attack/spell? One targeted attack/spell? How specific is it?) and 'area attack' (why not just say 'spread'? That's basically the only area attack that seems to work as per cover and LoE rules...)

Good luck, valiant debaters.

Masaioh
2009-09-10, 07:20 PM
Reason to play a sorcerer with Disjunction learned.

Disjunction ruins treasure. I would never use it.

Lysander
2009-09-10, 07:33 PM
Disjunction ruins treasure. I would never use it.

Also, even from the enemy caster's perspective why would you use disjunction instead of one of the many other level 9 spells available? It's not a very smart move in most fights. The barbarian charging at you now only has a masterwork sword, not a magic sword. Great. You're still screwed.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-10, 07:41 PM
Also, even from the enemy caster's perspective why would you use disjunction instead of one of the many other level 9 spells available? It's not a very smart move in most fights. The barbarian charging at you now only has a masterwork sword, not a magic sword. Great. You're still screwed.

What if you are a Level 20 Monk with a Scroll of Disjunctiom? Now your DR/magic is actuall worth a something.

Okay, not very common... but it is possible.

Alteran
2009-09-10, 07:43 PM
Also, even from the enemy caster's perspective why would you use disjunction instead of one of the many other level 9 spells available? It's not a very smart move in most fights. The barbarian charging at you now only has a masterwork sword, not a magic sword. Great. You're still screwed.

Alternately, the entire party now no longer has Death Ward. Time for a Chained Split Twinned Enervation!

quick_comment
2009-09-10, 07:43 PM
What if you are a Level 20 Monk with a Scroll of Disjunctiom? Now your DR/magic is actuall worth a something.

Okay, not very common... but it is possible.

Unless you are against an enemy whose natural weapons count as being magical, which is nearly every monster you will face at that level

seedjar
2009-09-10, 09:36 PM
That seems pretty straightforward. Disjunction is an area effect. "Your foe could choose to attack the area." It doesn't say "spreads" it says "area."

I think that's precisely where the ambiguity lies. They say 'the area' in a fairly casual context here; it's not entirely clear that they're referring to the term 'Area.' While I can definitely see the RAW argument here, you have to admit this is a little vague. They could've written, "Your foe could choose to attack with an area effect..." - which would've been much less ambiguous.
I feel like the exception clause in the spell is referring more to situations such as a crush attack that literally covers the entire space of the target, or a Fireball spell which similarly effects a definite volume by virtue of being a spread. Disjunction is shaped based on the line of effect from the center point that the caster targeted; sometimes it's the whole radius, sometimes it's smaller. When a spread fills an area with an effect, you can only be outside the effect by not being in that area - it doesn't move in any sense. A burst has a direction that it works in, even if it's over an instantaneous duration. Unlike a spread, it follows a path which can be obstructed.
~Joe

Tyndmyr
2009-09-10, 10:06 PM
Or a wall? Slamming the door as an immediate action (if you can do that somehow)? Why not?

All you need is a way to cast Open/Close. It's instantanious. A cleverly worded contingency would suffice.

Behold, a ninth level spell stopped by a cantrip(and triggered by a 6th level spell that requires ridiculously improbable circumstances, but hey, it works)

Lysander
2009-09-10, 11:23 PM
I think that's precisely where the ambiguity lies. They say 'the area' in a fairly casual context here; it's not entirely clear that they're referring to the term 'Area.' While I can definitely see the RAW argument here, you have to admit this is a little vague. They could've written, "Your foe could choose to attack with an area effect..." - which would've been much less ambiguous.
I feel like the exception clause in the spell is referring more to situations such as a crush attack that literally covers the entire space of the target, or a Fireball spell which similarly effects a definite volume by virtue of being a spread. Disjunction is shaped based on the line of effect from the center point that the caster targeted; sometimes it's the whole radius, sometimes it's smaller. When a spread fills an area with an effect, you can only be outside the effect by not being in that area - it doesn't move in any sense. A burst has a direction that it works in, even if it's over an instantaneous duration. Unlike a spread, it follows a path which can be obstructed.
~Joe

I think the idea is that Wings of Cover act as Total Cover against more precise attacks - swords, arrows, single target spells.

But it has enough cracks in it that spells that don't require precise aiming still have a chance of making it through, whether it's the spread of fireball, the cylinder of flamestrike, or the line of Lightning Bolt. A reduced chanced but a chance nonetheless.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-11, 06:36 AM
Unless you are against an enemy whose natural weapons count as being magical, which is nearly every monster you will face at that level

I was saying the Monk was the BBEG.

Eloel
2009-09-11, 06:40 AM
All you need is a way to cast Open/Close. It's instantanious. A cleverly worded contingency would suffice.

Behold, a ninth level spell stopped by a cantrip(and triggered by a 6th level spell that requires ridiculously improbable circumstances, but hey, it works)

Readied action to cast Open/Close works, why bother contingency'ing it?

thubby
2009-09-11, 07:26 AM
Readied action to cast Open/Close works, why bother contingency'ing it?

who wants to lose their otherwise awesome turn waiting to shut a door when you can rig up a spell to do it?

Optimystik
2009-09-11, 10:23 AM
I think the idea is that Wings of Cover act as Total Cover against more precise attacks - swords, arrows, single target spells.

But it has enough cracks in it that spells that don't require precise aiming still have a chance of making it through, whether it's the spread of fireball, the cylinder of flamestrike, or the line of Lightning Bolt. A reduced chanced but a chance nonetheless.

No, there are no "cracks" in it. A fireball can get around it (literally) because it is a spread. Flamestrike is a cylinder shooting from above, which specifically ignores obstructions (it just fills the area with fire.) A Lightning Bolt will always be stopped by Wings of Cover because it's a line.

NEO|Phyte
2009-09-11, 10:58 AM
No, there are no "cracks" in it. A fireball can get around it (literally) because it is a spread. Flamestrike is a cylinder shooting from above, which specifically ignores obstructions (it just fills the area with fire.) A Lightning Bolt will always be stopped by Wings of Cover because it's a line.
No. There's no 'getting around it', because it is a complete sphere (if you are not on the ground, otherwise it is a hemisphere with the 'open' end on the ground). Unless you are saying that spreads are capable of penetrating through magic barriers, a fireball is just as stopped as everything else.

Lysander
2009-09-11, 11:11 AM
No, there are no "cracks" in it. A fireball can get around it (literally) because it is a spread. Flamestrike is a cylinder shooting from above, which specifically ignores obstructions (it just fills the area with fire.) A Lightning Bolt will always be stopped by Wings of Cover because it's a line.

And a line is an area effect, which means the spell only provides an ac bonus and a bonus to reflex saves.

In the case of lightning bolt look at it this way. Lightning bolt can pass through multiple targets. It can pass through any barrier it destroys. The instant it hits Wings of Cover, Wings of Cover is destroyed. If this was a pellet like Magic Missile that would be in the end of it, but it's a spear of electricity shooting forth from your fingers. Your Wings of Cover survives for a instant then vanishes. Maybe this brief protection gives you time to get out of the way, hence the bonus to reflex saves. Maybe it's enough to shield you, hence the bonus to AC.

The thing about area attacks is that they're not one attack. They're lots of attacks. An arrow is a single point striking you. A shrapnel bomb is thousands of tiny points striking you. Each point is an attack, which is lumped together into area of effect damage.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-11, 11:45 AM
Readied action to cast Open/Close works, why bother contingency'ing it?

Good point. Only in case you're not close enough to the door, I guess.

ericgrau
2009-09-11, 11:48 AM
Economy of action, as said.