Variant: L40 slow progression

[Godskook]

I'm familiar with E6 and Gestalt, and I've been mulling over a different leveling variant. It actually has more options than gestalt, but unlike gestalt, has a more smooth leveling system, and provides more feats/skill points for players to work with, reducing the urge to grab every flaw in the UA. It also forces multiclassing, since non-epic play goes to L40 and no base class has more than 20 levels to be taken in it. One virtue of the system is that it will decrease the power of tier 1 and 2 considerably, although the most powerful builds will probably still have levels in at least one of those classes. Gish builds will become more powerful, since they will at least be easier to build and have more options as well.

The following changes are made:

-Epic is now achieved at L41. Adjust all expectations accordingly.
-BAB, Saves, Defense bonus(if applicable) are all gained at half the normal rate, and fractionally(as the UA variant)
-Max skill ranks are determined by half your level, rounded up.
-Feats and attribute points gained from character levels are obtained as normal. However, only half of attribute points gained through levels may be applied to a single attribute.
-"By level" tables need to be changed to allow a more gradual change, while still retaining the end points at L1 and what was previously L20
-By requirement, multiclass penalties must be at the very least, altered, if not ignored. Minimally, each character gets one 'free' class, before determining favored class and then multiclass penalties.

Change the 11 base classes as follows. Each class has a limit, which it cannot exceed. For instance, wizard levels can not account for more than half your class levels.
-Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, ToB - no limit
-Partial-casters and invokers - 3/4
-Full-casters - 1/2

Changes to prestige classes:
-If the class does not progress spellcasting, no limit
-If it progresses spellcasting and:
--requires caster levels, double the requirement
--requires spell levels, change nothing
-If it is a hybrid spellcasting class, adjustments may need to be made.
-In all cases, levels in a prestige class that actually progress casting counts as a level in that base class for determining limit.
-If it has its own casting, by prior approval only

Changes to ToB classes:
-No change?

The following classes are ones I'm not familiar enough with to determine if an adjustment is needed:
Oriental classes, Incarnum, Warlock, Binder, Psionics, and anything else not specifically listed.

[Zaydos]

Sounds wonderful, and looks fun. One question: you mention LA with the spellcasting, but you don't mention if it changes in any other way. Since levels grant less BAB, saves and the such would there need to be a change to how LA works or a change to existing creatures' LA. I realize this is a work in progress and concrete information on this probably won't be ready for some time, at least until the classes are finished and possibly longer.

[Godskook]

Sounds wonderful, and looks fun. One question: you mention LA with the spellcasting, but you don't mention if it changes in any other way. Since levels grant less BAB, saves and the such would there need to be a change to how LA works or a change to existing creatures' LA. I realize this is a work in progress and concrete information on this probably won't be ready for some time, at least until the classes are finished and possibly longer.

The reason for slowing down the BAB and saves is to retain an equivalency between a L40 character in this system and a L20 gestalt character, at least on most parts. If you build both using fractional gains, L40 in SP will have a BAB between 10 and 20, and a base save between 6 and 12, just like a L20 gestalt character.

I've been wrong before, but I don't suspect that LA would need any tweaking.

While I'm thinking about it, I need to note a change in the way damage formulas work for spells, since HP has effectively doubled.

[Eloel]

An alternative (that is easier to apply - I don't know how good/bad it'd work) would be alternating gestalt.
So, the levels you gain would be;
1-2
3-4
5-6
7-8
9-10

It achieves the same thing with spell-progression (33th level for 9th level spells. 5th level for 2nd level spells), BAB, and saves, although BAB and saves are likely to end up higher than what you'd normally expect from a L20 character (with 2 classes, you have more chance of covering all 'good saves' and 'good bab')

There WILL be some issues, but all variants have issues.
A Fighter-Warblade 'alternator' would have powers of both, but a Wizard-Fighter alternator wouldn't gain much from the fighter levels. (decreased caster power yay! :p)

[arkanis]

Just to make sure I'm clear: the purpose of this project is to stretch levels without adding additional "power" to players so that leveling up can be more common and more customizable? That's a great idea, but doing this would not actually make leveling up smoother, only more common and longer.

You see, dividing all the current calculations by 2 and stretching it to 40 instead of 20 levels would still keep all the same problems because the calculations are still progressing at the same formula just half-speed. You may gain absolutely nothing but 1 HP increase at some levels (maybe not even that if you're a wizard with 8 con) while others you'll be *DING* feat, HP, skill points and BAB boost and save boost at the same time.

If you want a really super smooth progression, you'll have to actually change the calculations rather than just fractionating them. You'd need to create your own progression for everything and that's quite a feat in itself.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just letting you know you may have to come up with something completely unique rather than just dividing by 2 to accomplish your goal.

[Godskook]

An alternative

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting...


Just to make sure I'm clear: the purpose of this project is to stretch levels without adding additional "power" to players so that leveling up can be more common and more customizable? That's a great idea, but doing this would not actually make leveling up smoother, only more common and longer.

Smoother compared to normal? No. Smoother compared to Gestalt? Yes.

The 'purpose' comes from my personal tastes, in so much as L20 always seemed low for 'epic'.

As far as 'longer' goes, that has been, and still will be, a function of the DM's personal desires for PC growth. If a DM wants to use this system, but still progress 1 spell level per BBEG, he simply increases XP gains from encounters(and the players level up twice as often).


You see, dividing all the current calculations by 2 and stretching it to 40 instead of 20 levels would still keep all the same problems because the calculations are still progressing at the same formula just half-speed. You may gain absolutely nothing but 1 HP increase at some levels (maybe not even that if you're a wizard with 8 con) while others you'll be *DING* feat, HP, skill points and BAB boost and save boost at the same time.

Not all calculations are divided by 2. A fighter still gains bonus feats every *2* levels, even in this system.

And as far as individual 'underpowered' classes go, this is not meant as a direct fix or adjustment to them. Their power increase is the result of the highest tiers being nerfed.


If you want a really super smooth progression, you'll have to actually change the calculations rather than just fractionating them. You'd need to create your own progression for everything and that's quite a feat in itself.

Some things will have new progressions(I think). I've been debating back and forth about how to do the spells per day table. Just how many spells does a wizard deserve when he's been reduced by 4 spell levels?(A L20-SP wizard would only have 5th level spells)

The reason BAB and Save end-points(at L1 and pre-epic) were kept 'as is' was to keep the baseline for ability DCs the same as they were. I wanted to make a variant, not a whole new system.