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View Full Version : [3.5] What would the Will Save DC be for a marriage proposal be?



Pika...
2009-09-10, 02:38 AM
I know, odd question, but it will be on my mind for a while now.

Anyway, I am guessing it would be an (EX) ability against the female of a species (unless you are a Gnoll or something...).


I imagine certain modifiers and such would apply as well? Perhaps a -2 to her save for every year she is past 29? Or a +2 to her save for every point of Charisma/Comeliness she has above 10(the Human average) to represent her "holding out" for a better suitor?

SparkMandriller
2009-09-10, 02:50 AM
lol you so funny XD

Curmudgeon
2009-09-10, 03:26 AM
Nah, you got it all wrong. It's a Reflex save for the proposer to duck!

Enguhl
2009-09-10, 03:40 AM
Nah, you got it all wrong. It's a Reflex save for the proposer to duck!

I think it would be a reflex save to see if they get to keep their dex to AC. Otherwise they are treated as flat footed (due to the kneeling and being caught off guard) and they then hope the didn't propose to a rogue...

golentan
2009-09-10, 03:54 AM
Yea-no. Just no. A marriage proposal is not and never should be a charm person effect.

A serious answer: RP it.

A nonserious answer: You failed the will save, and now must marry the Incubus/Succubus. Prepare for massive, massive level drain.

Pika...
2009-09-10, 03:55 AM
A nonserious answer: You failed the will save, and now must marry the Incubus/Succubus. Prepare for massive, massive level drain.

Hey. What if the Succubus actually falls for the guy, and wants to keep him around?

kamikasei
2009-09-10, 04:01 AM
Hey. What if the Succubus actually falls for the guy, and wants to keep him around?

Then she does. What's the question?

SparkMandriller
2009-09-10, 04:10 AM
Succubus girl = my waifu


(She can be all tsun at me because she's meant to be giving me negative levels instead of loving me, it'll be astonishingly moe.)

Grumman
2009-09-10, 04:16 AM
Hey. What if the Succubus actually falls for the guy, and wants to keep him around?
Then you're living in a fantasy world. And not the good sort of fantasy world, with fortresses and flying buzzsaw swarms, I'm talking about the ones with rainbow unicorns and forests infested with talking vermin.

ghost_warlock
2009-09-10, 04:17 AM
The succubus scenario is actually a good model for how a marriage proposal actually works: the proposer is the one who's forced to make a Will save.

Essentially, the succubus uses suggestion: propose to me.

Hopefully, the succubus' intentions were benign and she'll say 'yes.' Sometimes, however, she forces the proposal just so she can say 'no' and humiliate the poor sap.

:smallwink:

Pika...
2009-09-10, 05:05 AM
Then she does. What's the question?

Would the poor bloke survive the marriage? :smallbiggrin:

Myou
2009-09-10, 05:06 AM
What the f....

I really hope you're joking, because making a player make a will save to play their character the way they want would be some of the worst DMing imaginiable.

I'd flat out refuse to roll and tell you to get lost. -_-

ghost_warlock
2009-09-10, 05:13 AM
What the f....

I really hope you're joking, because making a player make a will save to play their character the way they want would be some of the worst DMing imaginiable.

I'd flat out refuse to roll and tell you to get lost. -_-

So...monsters in your campaigns never use charm, suggestion, or dominate spells/abilities?

Heck, do you also tell your DM to get lost if an opponent knocks your character unconscious in combat?

Myou
2009-09-10, 05:18 AM
So...monsters in your campaigns never use charm, suggestion, or dominate spells/abilities?

Heck, do you also tell your DM to get lost if an opponent knocks your character unconscious in combat?

So... you don't undertand the difference between a marriage proposal and a Charm Person spell? :smallconfused:

ghost_warlock
2009-09-10, 05:23 AM
So... you don't undertand the difference between a marriage proposal and a Charm Person spell? :smallconfused:

You're right, it should really be resisted by a Sense Motive check, not a Will save. :smallredface:

Myou
2009-09-10, 05:24 AM
You're right, it should really be resisted by a Sense Motive check, not a Will save. :smallredface:

Now I'm confused. o.o

ghost_warlock
2009-09-10, 05:27 AM
Now I'm confused. o.o

A marriage proposal is really more like a complex (http://www.dndsrd.net/unearthedSkills.html) Diplomacy/Bluff check. :smallwink:

Grey Paladin
2009-09-10, 05:31 AM
Now that's just low. You shouldn't throw Save-or-dies at players unless they have an access to a way to prevent it, like Death Ward.

Myou
2009-09-10, 05:33 AM
A marriage proposal is really more like a complex (http://www.dndsrd.net/unearthedSkills.html) Diplomacy/Bluff check. :smallwink:

I'd just roleplay it.

Girl: "Myou, will you marry me?"

Me: "Hell no."

Saph
2009-09-10, 05:39 AM
Now that's just low. You shouldn't throw Save-or-dies at players unless they have an access to a way to prevent it, like Death Ward.

Marriage Ward?

Protection from Courting?

Resist Proposal?

kamikasei
2009-09-10, 05:40 AM
Would the poor bloke survive the marriage? :smallbiggrin:

If she wants him to.

Longcat
2009-09-10, 05:43 AM
Marriage proposal save DC:

19+your primary casting stat modifier+anything you have that boosts your Enchantment DCs

Some refer to it as Mindrape. I refer to it as a marriage proposal.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-10, 05:48 AM
Oh, mindrape. Is there anything you can't do?

Longcat
2009-09-10, 05:50 AM
Oh, mindrape. Is there anything you can't do?

The sky's the limit :smallwink:

The Neoclassic
2009-09-10, 07:58 AM
A couple of things...

A Will save doesn't seem appropriate. Those are generally only used against spell-like or supernatural abilities. A marriage proposal is neither.

If we're talking about PCs, note that you can't force them into making decisions about such things (or shouldn't, at least). For example, if an NPC rolls very high on his Bluff or Diplomacy check, you describe the NPC's speech and apparent intent accordingly, not what the player then decides. One may have NPCs be convinced after a few rolls, but it doesn't work like that for players.

Finally, one can purposefully fail any save at will, can't they? And if it's two individuals who love each other, I can't imagine turning it into such an antagonistic opposing-checks situation. The only case I *might* be able to see marriage being determined by a roll is if an evil PC has been manipulating and seducing an NPC, and then he finally professes his love (Bluff check) and proposes to her (Diplomacy check). At this point, she might do an opposed Sense Motive check or such to see if she accepts.

Keshay
2009-09-10, 08:40 AM
Whatever the save / check DC is, it should be modified by the quality of the offered engagement gift. (The nicer the ring, the better the modifier).

Melamoto
2009-09-10, 10:46 AM
The sky's the limit :smallwink:

Not even that if you Mindrape a dragon or something.

Kylarra
2009-09-10, 10:50 AM
Marriage Ward?

Protection from Courting?

Resist Proposal?
Detect Suitor.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-10, 10:51 AM
... Bluff or Diplomacy check, you describe the NPC's speech and apparent intent accordingly, not what the player then decides ...

A: Serious post is serious.

B: Diplomacy cannot be used on player characters to begin with.

EDIT and jumping on the bandwagon:


Detect Suitor.

Marriage Armor.

Suitorial Anchor.

Antiproposal Field.

Globe of Unsuitability.

And for the divorces:

Break Marriage

Dispel Marriage and Greater Dispel Marriage.

The Neoclassic
2009-09-10, 11:06 AM
A: Serious post is serious.

I don't see anything wrong with taking it seriously, since it was initially posed in a semiserious fashion. :smalltongue:


B: Diplomacy cannot be used on player characters to begin with.

I don't have my DM's guide on me, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to use Diplomacy (though probably more like Burlew's rules of using it rather than the very, very limited "Better NPC attitudes" definition in the SRD) to represent how good of an impression an NPC makes on a character. How eloquent they seem, how reasonable the proposal comes across, etc. I'm aware that for straight-up "Influencing attitude from one category to another" NPCs can't use Diplomacy on PCs. PCs have complete control over what their characters think and feel, but the DMis in charge of what information they receive and how encounters (diplomatic and otherwise) are presented to them.

On the bright side, I actually made a marriage-related spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6877656&postcount=99). On the not so bright side, it requires both participants to be willing. :smallsigh:

Fax Celestis
2009-09-10, 11:09 AM
10 + 1/2 HD + Cha, like any other Extraordinary/Supernatural ability. :smalltongue:

TheThan
2009-09-10, 11:33 AM
The succubus scenario is actually a good model for how a marriage proposal actually works: the proposer is the one who's forced to make a Will save.

Essentially, the succubus uses suggestion: propose to me.

Hopefully, the succubus' intentions were benign and she'll say 'yes.' Sometimes, however, she forces the proposal just so she can say 'no' and humiliate the poor sap.

:smallwink:

I think it would depend on what the succubus is getting out of the marriage.

eepop
2009-09-10, 01:46 PM
There are just way too many circumstance modifiers to try to model this.

I'll just throw some modifiers from when I proposed for example

1) At a Ren Faire, bonus
2) Spent money on her at said Ren Faire, bonus
3) It had rained that day and was muddy, penalty
4) We weren't yet done with college, penalty
5) We couldn't really afford to get married, penalty
6) Good ring, bonus

And thats just the tip of the iceberg. If I took more time I could probably come up with another 20 something things that factored in, not to mention anything that she considered that I wouldn't think of.

And that just lists what the circumstances are, not what the actual numbers of how much they counted were.

Telonius
2009-09-10, 01:55 PM
Depending on the circumstances, a Balance or Climb Check (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6153790/Woman-falls-off-cliff-after-shock-marriage-proposal.html) might even be in order.

FMArthur
2009-09-10, 01:56 PM
Succubus girl = my waifu


(She can be all tsun at me because she's meant to be giving me negative levels instead of loving me, it'll be astonishingly moe.)

I have no idea what you are talking about. The most I got out of it was that your wife looks like Moe.

http://www.cafalawblog.com/uploads/image/Moe.jpg

Starbuck_II
2009-09-10, 02:00 PM
Yea-no. Just no. A marriage proposal is not and never should be a charm person effect.

A serious answer: RP it.

A nonserious answer: You failed the will save, and now must marry the Incubus/Succubus. Prepare for massive, massive level drain.

Doesn't that make all Fighters terrible at rejecting marriage?

LibraryOgre
2009-09-10, 02:04 PM
DC 10 to avoid making one. DC 5 if sober.

Cieyrin
2009-09-10, 02:06 PM
There are just way too many circumstance modifiers to try to model this.

I'll just throw some modifiers from when I proposed for example

1) At a Ren Faire, bonus
2) Spent money on her at said Ren Faire, bonus
3) It had rained that day and was muddy, penalty
4) We weren't yet done with college, penalty
5) We couldn't really afford to get married, penalty
6) Good ring, bonus

And thats just the tip of the iceberg. If I took more time I could probably come up with another 20 something things that factored in, not to mention anything that she considered that I wouldn't think of.

And that just lists what the circumstances are, not what the actual numbers of how much they counted were.

Look at that, circumstance bonuses and penalties.


On the bright side, I actually made a marriage-related spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6877656&postcount=99). On the not so bright side, it requires both participants to be willing. :smallsigh:

I was wondering when you were gonna plug the spell. :smalltongue: Though, it'd only occur after the proposal, which I would say would be Diplomacy-based vs. the target's Sense Motive. Sometimes the DC is low, as you're not trying to weasel your way into such a relationship and you both genuinely want this to succeed. Sometimes the DC is high, if you have other motives and Bluff comes into it to make you look sincere and not take a penalty on that final Diplomacy so that s/he believes you and you influence their decision.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

EDIT:
DC 10 to avoid making one. DC 5 if sober.

Alcohol is a poison that does Wisdom and Dexterity damage, so it's already taken care. :smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2009-09-10, 02:17 PM
That does mean Monks and Druids stop benefiting from alcohol to forget troubles (Immunity).

ericgrau
2009-09-10, 02:21 PM
Doesn't that make all Fighters terrible at rejecting marriage?

Have you ever heard a story about a fighter that wasn't stuck with a maiden?

Woodsman
2009-09-10, 02:25 PM
Have you ever heard a story about a fighter that wasn't stuck with a maiden?

I thought maidens were standard issue?

OverdrivePrime
2009-09-10, 02:36 PM
I know, odd question, but it will be on my mind for a while now.

Anyway, I am guessing it would be an (EX) ability against the female of a species (unless you are a Gnoll or something...).


I imagine certain modifiers and such would apply as well? Perhaps a -2 to her save for every year she is past 29? Or a +2 to her save for every point of Charisma/Comeliness she has above 10(the Human average) to represent her "holding out" for a better suitor?
Pika..., every time I see you post on relationships I become more convinced that you'd make a wonderful movie character. You're quite the unusual fellow.

Anyway, the way I see it, there are very few occasions to bring game mechanics into it. If the proposee (not necessarily female) is interested in marrying the proposer (not necessarily male), then the proposee shouldn't have to roll to accept.
By the same token, no one should have to roll to reject a marriage proposal, unless there is a huge temptation.

Think of other natural roleplaying elements of everyday life.
Proposer: "Would you like something else to eat?"
Proposee: "No thank you, I'm already stuffed."
-- no roll required!

Proposer: "I herd u like marriage."
Proposee: "U heard wrong, noob! GTFO!"
-- no roll required!


However... if there is some sort of huge temptation that the proposer presents that may overcome the proposee's predisposition to refuse the proposition, then we might bring some mechanics in.

Proposer: "Would you like to eat this delicious rum cake?"
Proposee: "Um... I'm stuffed but... mmm.... cake..."
. . Proposee must roll Will vs DC 12 (10+CR of temptation), and fails with an 8.
Proposee: "NOM NOM NOM NOM"

Proposer, who looks like Brad Pitt and has more wealth than an ancient red dragon, is well dressed and has picked an excellent proposal location: "Dearest love, I know that I killed your father and burned your village, but I repent and I know that with your love, you can change me into a good man. Will you make me the happiest man in the multiverse and marry me?"
Proposee: :smalleek:
Proposee makes a sense motive check to gauge the proposer's sincerity. She rolls a 24 and is convinced that the proposer is sincere! Proposee now has the massive temptation of not only unimaginable financial security (+4), an extremely handsome suitor (+2), a romantic location and proposition (+2), but the opportunity to change a man into something even more desirable to her (+4). On the other hand, the proposer is a sworn enemy directly responsible for the death of her family and friends (-16). The proposer could have tipped the scales in his favor by proposing in front of a whole bunch of people that the proposee cares about (+2).
Now the proposee makes a will save vs 10+ the CR of the suitor plus modifiers. Frustratingly for her, the modifiers balance out to +0. She rolls a 12 vs DC 13 and shrugs, "Sure."

Alternatively she could just accept and plan to coup-de-grace him in his sleep after negotiating a favorable prenuptial agreement.

Telonius
2009-09-10, 03:37 PM
I thought maidens were standard issue?

I think there's some confusion going on between Fighters and Bards ...

Person_Man
2009-09-10, 04:00 PM
On the issue of whether or not proposing requires a Will Save, I would say yes. I'm acquaintances with a girl who was proposed to in the worst way possible (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-md.proposal18aug18,0,7884261.story) to douchebag of a guy she was on the fence about, and she still said yes. A diamond ring and social pressure does crazy things to people.

ericgrau
2009-09-10, 04:09 PM
I think there's some confusion going on between Fighters and Bards ...

No, no confusion. Bards woo many maidens without marriage b/c they have a good will save. Fighters get caught by the first one they rescue.

Korivan
2009-09-10, 04:28 PM
Well, as someone who was just married two days ago...I recall it as the following...

Will save, Charisma based on the one proposing...This is a mind-affecting language dependent charm...

Then a fort save, this is to endure the endless barage of questions, pictures...basically EVERYTHING THAT SHES GONNA THROW AT YOU FOR THE SHINDIG

Then finally, the reflex save to avoid the shotgun...:smallcool:

Starbuck_II
2009-09-10, 04:55 PM
On the issue of whether or not proposing requires a Will Save, I would say yes. I'm acquaintances with a girl who was proposed to in the worst way possible (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-md.proposal18aug18,0,7884261.story) to douchebag of a guy she was on the fence about, and she still said yes. A diamond ring and social pressure does crazy things to people.

Worst? That is the best!
Now he has a story to tell the kids.

ericgrau
2009-09-10, 06:13 PM
And to the judge.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-10, 06:47 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about. The most I got out of it was that your wife looks like Moe.

Change shape, yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah.


PS guess how much you miss out on by not understanding my posts.
PPS i'll give you a hint it's not a lot.

Pika...
2009-09-10, 08:14 PM
Pika..., every time I see you post on relationships I become more convinced that you'd make a wonderful movie character. You're quite the unusual fellow.

Thanks in a way I guess. :smallsmile:

Although, I get the feeling that is probably a very, very bad thing. At least, depending on the character trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoserGuy) I would fall under...

CockroachTeaParty
2009-09-10, 08:43 PM
Whatever it is, it's not high enough... :smallannoyed: