[3.5] Best way to backstab

[Burley]

The campaign my group is in right now is... curious. The big picture is that there are some fairly evil people (the party) who got to gether to stop a bigger evil. While they don't partake in some of the more repulsive "evil" that I've been seeing on this forum in high fashion, they definitely make deals with devils and don't think twice about dropping a cohort in lava, just to see what happens.
My character is coming in to put an end to that. He's a little like a secret agent. Doppleganger Beguiler/Mindbender, and before anybody says anything about the build: Yeah, I'm happy with it. The agency I work for (the DM) has sent me to join the group, gain their trust, aid them in their fight against whatever the hell they're fighting, and then strike them down while they're weak.

But, my question is: I'm fairly certain that I can hit all but one of the party with the Eternal Charm, and then have them take him out. But, I want all the assurance I can get. So, if they're asleep, I'm looking now at (13+class level). I don't know if this would apply to cloak casting, either. Is the only way to boost this DC to use Ability Focus?

[Kelpstrand]

Unconscious == Willing.

They get no saving throw if they are all asleep.

[Eloel]

Unconscious == Willing.

They get no saving throw if they are all asleep.

Willing != No Will saving throw
It just means the spells that need a 'willing' person can be activated.

[kamikasei]

Willing != No Will saving throw
It just means the spells that need a 'willing' person can be activated.

Note that nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm) only takes effect when the target is asleep, yet grants a will save. Just to back you up there.

(And note that when I say "only takes effect when the target is asleep", it doesn't mean you cast it on them while they're awake and then it affects them when they're asleep - you explicitly cannot complete the casting unless/until they're asleep.)

[Tshern]

Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
From here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm)

So unconscious creatures are willing. Just to get rid of the confusion.

[Fishy]

The most unfortunate line in the SRD, by the way.

[kamikasei]

From here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm)

So unconscious creatures are willing. Just to get rid of the confusion.

That hasn't been contested. However, being "considered willing" for the purposes of spells which affect "willing targets" does not mean you forgo your saving throw.

[Starbuck_II]

Unconscious == Willing.


Just like real life. :smallbiggrin:

[Raewyn]

What level are you? Because you can only have once creature Eternal Charmed at a time before Mindbender 6. Also, it can be undone by Break Enchantment, so hopefully your arcanist (I'm guessing he's the one that wouldn't fail the save) doesn't know you're coming. (On second thought, might want to charm him instead.)

Also, am I the only one who questions the wisdom of a DM putting a traitor in the party and basically fomenting PvP combat? Is that the sort of thing your group is cool with or are a lot of people gonna be pissed?

[Tshern]

That hasn't been contested. However, being "considered willing" for the purposes of spells which affect "willing targets" does not mean you forgo your saving throw.
Just wanted to point out the quote about it, since I didn't see it here. You made a reference to Nightmare spell, but I've learned that refering to rules directly like this usually prevent several posts of useless banter.

This

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Makes the thing sort of worth debating. Interpret it as you wish. It's from the same page.

[kamikasei]

Just wanted to point out the quote about it, since I didn't see it here. You made a reference to Nightmare spell, but I've learned that refering to rules directly like this usually prevent several posts of useless banter.

You've misunderstood my point. My reference to the nightmare spell was to demonstrate that there is a spell which only works on unconscious creatures, yet grants a will save, so clearly simply being unconscious does not mean you forgo your save.

[Kelpstrand]

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

Is a willing creatures willingly accepting a spell's result?

[Tshern]

You've misunderstood my point. My reference to the nightmare spell was to demonstrate that there is a spell which only works on unconscious creatures, yet grants a will save, so clearly simply being unconscious does not mean you forgo your save.
No, I got your point. I knew your Nightmare reference was for that purpose, but posting the rules quote I threw in to the fray was an addition to your case. Supporting, not undermining.

[kamikasei]

Well crap, if everyone agrees then it's no fun.


Is a willing creatures willingly accepting a spell's result?

No. "Willing creature" is a term used in certain spell descriptions, being "considered willing" means you count as one. That does not mean the same thing as "willingly accepting a spell's result".

[Tshern]

I must agree with kamisei. The sleeping Barbarian still doesn't want to be Finger of Death'ed to oblivion.

[Melamoto]

Unconscious == willingJust like real life. :smallbiggrin:

:smalleek:

[Burley]

So... Basically, being asleep makes them helpless, but other than that, nothing? No penatlies to saves or anything? Unless I'm trying to buff them?

I got confused.

[Keewatin]

So... Basically, being asleep makes them helpless, but other than that, nothing? No penatlies to saves or anything? Unless I'm trying to buff them?

I got confused.

Helpless means things can hit you/ target you easier it doesn't mean you lose all ability to defend yourself from magic.

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe.



Incidentally "sleeping" is not on the condition list though listen says you get a -10 on listen checks for being asleep :smallconfused:

[Cieyrin]

Helpless means things can hit you/ target you easier it doesn't mean you lose all ability to defend yourself from magic.

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe.



Incidentally "sleeping" is not on the condition list though listen says you get a -10 on listen checks for being asleep :smallconfused:

You missed sleeping in your own quote.:smalltongue:

[kamikasei]

You missed sleeping in your own quote.:smalltongue:

I think he means that it's not a defined condition in its own right.

[Epinephrine]

So... Basically, being asleep makes them helpless, but other than that, nothing? No penatlies to saves or anything? Unless I'm trying to buff them?

I got confused.

No, you could, for example, teleport them while they sleep. Or plane shift them. Or shadow walk them. That can be handy, since you can separate them from their companions.

Heck, you can leave them in a collection of hostile planes. Or take them all to the abyss, then leave.

[Grumman]

No, you could, for example, teleport them while they sleep.
You know those dreams where it feels like you're falling?