Feats for a Rogue

[Mongoose87]

So, I'm building a Halfling Rogue for a friend. She's a Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Whisperknife 10/Nightsong Infiltrator 10. I need feat ideas, since I'm not really well practiced at building rogues. Nothing too complicated in usage, please- she doesn't like having a lot to keep track of. We have 10 non-Epic feats, as we are using the Pathfinder feat progression. Anything 3.5 from Wizards or from Pathfinder is welcome. Setting is Eberron, so nothing FR or Dragonlance, please.

[Curmudgeon]

Most important feat to take is Craven (which is in Champions of Ruin, but has nothing to do with the FR setting).

You really should retitle this thread, though, as this isn't a Rogue. You don't have access to any of the class's special abilities, which only start at Rogue 10.

[Person_Man]

In my opinion, the most important Rogue feats are:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty.

Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide. This makes it much easier for you to sneak up on enemies.

[Darrin]

In my opinion, the most important Rogue feats are:


One more, for higher level stuff when Spell Resistance starts to grow on trees:

Undo Resistance: When you hit with cold iron weapon, reduce target's SR by 1 per SA die. From Fiendish Codex II.

[Eldariel]

In my opinion, the most important Rogue feats are:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty.

Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide. This makes it much easier for you to sneak up on enemies.

This list is perfect, though I wouldn't include Staggering Strike on the same level of importance; it's very useful, but not an absolute must. Other useful feats include:
- Quick Draw (to enable thrown flurries)
- Two-Weapon Fighting (to double up on your melee attacks)
- Shadowblade (Dex to damage)

[Mongoose87]

This list is perfect, though I wouldn't include Staggering Strike on the same level of importance; it's very useful, but not an absolute must. Other useful feats include:
- Quick Draw (to enable thrown flurries)
- Two-Weapon Fighting (to double up on your melee attacks)
- Shadowblade (Dex to damage)

Shadowblade is unnecessary, as the character has an item that boost both her strength and dex to absurd levels.

[tcrudisi]

Shadowblade is unnecessary, as the character has an item that boost obth her strength and dex to absurd levels.

Actually, if Dex is absurdly high, that's exactly when you want to add Dex to damage. If your Dex modifier is +1, who cares about +1 damage. If your Dex modifier is +1000? That's a significant boost to damage. (Yeah, it's an exaggeration, but looking at extremes often helps provide the point).

[Mongoose87]

Actually, if Dex is absurdly high, that's exactly when you want to add Dex to damage. If your Dex modifier is +1, who cares about +1 damage. If your Dex modifier is +1000? That's a significant boost to damage. (Yeah, it's an exaggeration, but looking at extremes often helps provide the point).

They're both being boosted the same amount.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

They're both being boosted the same amount.

The thing is, if you can afford the investment, and it looks like the character can, starting at epic, the dex to damage is in addition to the strength damage. Why not double dip then?

[Mongoose87]

The thing is, if you can afford the investment, and it looks like the character can, starting at epic, the dex to damage is in addition to the strength damage. Why not double dip then?
Wait, what? In addition to?

[Draz74]

Wait, what? In addition to?

Yep. Read the feat. Says nothing about removing Strength from the equation.

[Mongoose87]

Yep. Read the feat. Says nothing about removing Strength from the equation.

*Jaw drops*

[Telonius]

Why all the levels in Nightsong Infiltrator? I don't think it gives you much after about level 5, unless there's some great combo with Whisperknife I'm not remembering (books aren't in front of me). And both Whisperknife and Nightsong have a bunch of prerequisites. (One of them is Weapon Finesse - which it sounds like you'd like to avoid). I think you'd probably be better off with more Rogue levels.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Why all the levels in Nightsong Infiltrator? I don't think it gives you much after about level 5, unless there's some great combo with Whisperknife I'm not remembering (books aren't in front of me). And both Whisperknife and Nightsong have a bunch of prerequisites. (One of them is Weapon Finesse - which it sounds like you'd like to avoid). I think you'd probably be better off with more Rogue levels.

See, Shadow Blade comes in handy here, too. It counts as Weapon Finesse for qualifications, too!

EDIT: Although, dropping some levels of those two prestige classes is still probably in order. Adding Swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel) might also be in order.

[Mongoose87]

Why all the levels in Nightsong Infiltrator? I don't think it gives you much after about level 5, unless there's some great combo with Whisperknife I'm not remembering (books aren't in front of me). And both Whisperknife and Nightsong have a bunch of prerequisites. (One of them is Weapon Finesse - which it sounds like you'd like to avoid). I think you'd probably be better off with more Rogue levels.

Well, the Hide in Plain Sight and Improved Evasion are both nice.

[Telonius]

You can get HiPS from one level of Shadowdancer, and Improved Evasion is a Rogue Ability. You aren't losing much, and are gaining all of the sneak attack dice you'd otherwise lose out on.

[Mongoose87]

You can get HiPS from one level of Shadowdancer, and Improved Evasion is a Rogue Ability. You aren't losing much, and are gaining all of the sneak attack dice you'd otherwise lose out on.

My DM isn't fond of one-level dips. In fact, that was his exact example of what not to do.

[Cieyrin]

Providing what stats the character has beyond levels would help, as we can optimize from there on what feats to go for.

[Mongoose87]

Providing what stats the character has beyond levels would help, as we can optimize from there on what feats to go for.

I wish I knew, but I don't have them.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, the Hide in Plain Sight and Improved Evasion are both nice.
Not that nice, actually. Nightsong Infiltrator's Hide in Plain Sight is one of the Extraordinary versions, with the usual limitation: it only obviates one of the two requirements to use the Hide skill: not being observed. The good Supernatural versions (Shadowdancer, Assassin) also remove the cover/concealment requirement. And unlike Rangers or Scouts, Nightsong Infiltrators don't get Camouflage to handle that requirement separately. So you've got to supply either cover (which means you're dependent on the surroundings) or concealment (which means you probably can't do sneak attack :smallannoyed:).

As for Improved Evasion, you really shouldn't be missing any of your Reflex saves. This is about my last choice among all the Rogue special abilities.

[Person_Man]

Well if we've descended into specific build advice instead of just feat advice, here's my 2 cp:


Two levels of Ranger is unnecessary. You have a ton of feats, so getting TWF for free isn't that big of a deal. I'd much rather have one more Rogue Special Ability.
Whisperknife sucks. If you want to use thrown weapons, consider Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade, and/or Hulking Hurler. Each is superior in many different ways.
Nightsong Enforger is also nothing to write home about. It's basically just a full BAB Rogue with less Sneak Attack and less selection of Special Abilities.


Consider Rogue 19/Whatever X with the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel, improves all of your Special Abilities), A Rogue/Swashbuckler with the Daring Outlaw feat, a Factotum, or some sort of Rogue/Master Thrower/Whatever build.

[Jace Glaekon]

I have to disagree very much so with Whisperknife sucking. It stacks very nicely with Master Thrower on a Halfling. You cut the amount of returning knives (Or whatever you throw) in half, you can palm 4 knives a throw, and as long as the things you fight are your size or bigger you make ranged touch attacks. I'll give that Whisperknife has the stupid prereq of a knife throwing PRC ever (Weapon Finesse, serously?) but who doesn't want to throw 36 knives a turn?

Also, ToB is banned in the group I am in so, no, I haven't read it.

[herrhauptmann]

SInce your friend is a halfling, drop the 2 levels of ranger, and go to level 2 or 3 shadowdancer(drop an additional level somewhere else), so you get HIPS, and darkvision. Granted, darkvision is easy to get through items at that level, but why take up one more slot than you need to.

Feats: Sneak attack of opportunity. A little less useful since you won't be doing 20d6 SA or anything, but any AOO you get, also gives you sneak attack. Epic level handbook.

COmplete scoundrel luck feats. One I believe lets you treat a nat 1 as a nat 20. Requirement is like 4 other luck feats though.

However, if you're building an epic character for your friend, will your friend really be able to use their own character? I was recently in a party where the Psion was halfbuilt by the DM, and the player didn't know how to control his own character to best effect.

[Jace Glaekon]

Yep. Read the feat. Says nothing about removing Strength from the equation.

Actually, if we are talking about the ToB Shadow Blade:

Shadow Blade
One Shadow Hand maneuver
Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier on damage rolls with Shadow Sun weapons

And now I have actually looked at one thing in the ToB.

Edit: Weird anomaly, it says instead of in the brief description of the feat but says bonus to damage in the full description. Weird.

[Curmudgeon]

And now I have actually looked at one thing in the ToB.

Edit: Weird anomaly, it says instead of in the brief description of the feat but says bonus to damage in the full description. Weird.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. Thanks to this official word on how to adjudicate such discrepancies, we know that you ignore the entry from Table 2-1 summarizing feats and instead follow the text of the actual feat. You add DEX without substitution.

[Raewyn]

Actually, if we are talking about the ToB Shadow Blade:

Shadow Blade
One Shadow Hand maneuver
Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier on damage rolls with Shadow Sun weapons

And now I have actually looked at one thing in the ToB.

Edit: Weird anomaly, it says instead of in the brief description of the feat but says bonus to damage in the full description. Weird.

Feat text trumps table text. Not sure what the precise source of that ruling is though. *shrug*

EDIT: Arrr, I be ninjaed.

[xPANCAKEx]

improved initiative - NEVER to be underestimated, especially for rogues

[Mr. Mud]

improved initiative - NEVER to be underestimated, especially for rogues

Seconded. Probably not a first pick, but still very, very viable for a Rouge.