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DataPacRat
2009-09-10, 01:05 PM
Me and my DM are about to start kicking the tires of the epic rules, building a character or three, seeing if we're up to running epic-level combat, and so on. So... does any advice come to mind on, say, things that might slip by us if we're not paying attention, or do you have some good epic-level stories you'd like to share?


(For my first test-drive epic char, I'm probably going to give that koboldish Dragon Ascendant a try - yes, I've got the DM's permission on the various judgement calls required to build it. Heck, I've got explicit permission to build /Pun-pun/, mentioned by name, if I want to. But I think I'd like to keep to level 40 or below for my first foray into the epic rules...)

Temet Nosce
2009-09-10, 01:10 PM
You've got permission to build a character with aleph 1 stats, and every ability? Geeze... That's not so much epic as plain old absurd. I don't see how you could use Pun-Pun in an actual game really since it'd end once he ascended.

Kylarra
2009-09-10, 01:10 PM
Well for starters, I'd just cross out all the epic spell creation stuff...

Signmaker
2009-09-10, 01:11 PM
Spellcasting. Is. Forever. Universe-Shattering.

But if you're not the type to shatter the cosmos with epic spellcasting, you've also got the choice of nearly every combat build going insane with power.

Doc Roc
2009-09-10, 01:13 PM
Epic rules are terrible. Really god awful. I don't know what to tell you, when you're explicitly allowed to play a character with no finite upper bound on actions per turn, currently extent instances of himself, and infinite stats. I mean, I guess you can ban epic spellcasting?


You're trying to carry water in a bucket made exclusively of holes.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-10, 01:16 PM
A variation on my sorceror spellweaving mechanic would probably make a decent substitute for Epic Spellcasting and wouldn't be completely zomgbrokenz.

DataPacRat
2009-09-10, 01:43 PM
Well for starters, I'd just cross out all the epic spell creation stuff...

Okay, this comment (and the others just like it) intrigues me, since that's exactly what I'm reading this very moment. (Specifically, I'm looking at creating life from scratch; so far, it looks like burning 20,000 XP and taking 30 days to cast brings the difficulty down to 45, which seems in line with the other epic spells listed.) Could you offer more specific examples of how broken those rules are?


As for Pun-Pun builds, perhaps I should have been more specific; I have permission to use them, /if/ I can make them interesting to actually play. So, if it's not actually fun to play such a character with a DM and other players around, then you can assume I don't have permission to play it, and that my question about epic rules doesn't actually include them. 'K? :) (Just trying to head this discussion from heading too far off on a digression...)

FMArthur
2009-09-10, 01:46 PM
Screw epic rules. Just don't touch 'em. When your class ends, pick another and keep going. Crisis averted.

Actually... after 20th level spells decrease in effectiveness in comparison to saves. Abilities with 1/2 HD + ability modifier save DCs continue on, but spellcasting, which generally follows that same pattern up to 9th-level spells, falls behind. Damage stays viable thanks to Power Attack and Sneak Attack... Psions seem to be the casters of choice later on due to augmentation.

Crow
2009-09-10, 01:47 PM
The epic spellcasting rules are only as broken as the group allows them to be. If you start chain-gating solars or otherwise attempting to abuse the rules, then yes, they will break, and break spectacularly. But if you use them roughly as intended, they work just fine.

Besides, epic NPC's have access to epic spellcasting also, so anything you can do to break the game, the DM can do even better.

Eldariel
2009-09-10, 01:49 PM
The epic spellcasting rules are only as broken as the group allows them to be. If you start chain-gating solars or otherwise attempting to abuse the rules, then yes, they will break, and break spectacularly. But if you use them roughly as intended, they work just fine.

Besides, epic NPC's have access to epic spellcasting also, so anything you can do to break the game, the DM can do even better.

Eh, Epic Spellcasting has the issue that the mitigation rules are completely broken, and boosting Spellcraft is ridiculously easy. Eliminate those two issues (derive it off Caster Level, for example, and cap mitigation at 50%) and it starts working pretty well. But as written, making anything without a single Solar is easy.

Myou
2009-09-10, 01:54 PM
Epic feats are a total mess.

I've been making a new set of epic feats that replaces them (link in signature) if you're interested. Otherwise, I'd just throw out all epic feats - they're almost uniformly either utterly broken or completely worthless.

Crow
2009-09-10, 01:54 PM
I guess I should have mentioned chained skill-boosting spells too...

The only issues I've run into with epic spellcasting is coming up with enough money to research the spells I want to make.

jiriku
2009-09-10, 01:55 PM
Epic spells are easy to manage if you simply build them in close cooperation with the DM, working together to ensure that you get the effects you want and the DM gets the campaign he planned for. The system does give you explicit permission to break all the rules, but that's what gentleman's agreements are for.

You may wish to search for or develop new epic feats, as many of them are ineffective ("You get +1 to hit! And a cookie!"). Non-spellcasting classes especially could be given piles of superheroic abilities, and enormous saving throw bonuses, and the game wouldn't suffer.

PId6
2009-09-10, 01:59 PM
Epic spellcasting also has the problem that if you don't abuse the mitigation rules, it becomes damn bloody useless. The rules easily send any practical spell's Spellcraft DCs into the stratosphere without mitigation, so it's almost impossible to cast useful epic spells in combat.

Also, +1 for Myou's epic feats.

Myou
2009-09-10, 02:06 PM
Also, +1 for Myou's epic feats.

Awww, thanks man! ^_^