[3.5e] Shadowdancer that doesn't suck

[Surgo]

The Shadowdancer as it appears in the DMG is intensely unsatisfying. It's abilities are weak and it doesn't really do the sort of things I have in mind for a Shadowdancer to do. To that end, I have written one that does do the things that I think a Shadowdancer ought to be able to do. One of the most important things was movement from the get-go; a Shadowdancer is defined by being able to jump through shadows, so they'd better be able to do it from the start!

Fully-formatted Shadowdancer. (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowdancer,_Tome_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29)

The two most troublesome (well, the only troublesome) abilities were Shadow Strike and Mirrorshard Blade. Both of these went through several revisions until they came to what I think is now an acceptable level of power.

[Amphetryon]

The special requirement for this PrC is extraordinarily vague, to the point where it's not a functional limitation. Every Rogue I've ever seen played appears to auto-qualify when they ding 5.

The fact that the Darkness, Deeper Darkness, Shadow Door, Shadow Walk and Shadow Vanish abilities can all be used at will reads as overpowered to me. Unlimited Phantasmal Images seems extremely overpowered, even compared to the preceding. So does the Mirrorshard Blade ability, because so many Rogues will already be TWFing regardless, and this grants a pair of extremely powerful signature weapons - that nobody else can use at all - to a 14th level character. The character could, as written, produce any number of them, at the rate of 2/round.

If you were to rework the at-will abilities so there was some reasonable cap on their uses, and fix the verbiage on Mirrorshard Blade so that you couldn't own NI iterations of them, it'd be closer.

[Doc Roc]

Fully seconded. I am not sure what makes this a "Tome" PrC, as it does not fit with the milieu.
Many of the abilities run on character rather than class level right now, encouraging one-and-two dips.

[Surgo]

Yes, pretty much every Rogue qualifies when they hit 5. That's fine. If they want to take it, they can.


The fact that the Darkness, Deeper Darkness, Shadow Door, Shadow Walk and Shadow Vanish abilities can all be used at will reads as overpowered to me.
...so, uh, how are they overpowered exactly? Are you going to quote something about how they do better against level-appropriate monsters, or are you just going to say this with no evidence whatsoever?

At 6th level (that's character level), a character can teleport 40 feet as a standard action. This is overpowered how?

At 7th level, a character can use Darkness as many times as they want as a standard action. Oh no, not darkness!

Ooh, level 8, now here's some goodies. We can Dimension Door as many times as we want (again a standard action), now that is kind of cool. Too good for level 8? Possibly the only ability in the class that might be a little too good when it's received. We can also use a ridiculously overpriced spell to move around faster so we don't need to travel on horseback. Not really seeing the problem.

We also finally get the ability to teleport 45 feet as a move action, so now we can actually use our teleport in combat. We had to wait until we hit level 8 to do this! What's the problem? We can't even make a full attack off of this until we hit level 10!


and this grants a pair of extremely powerful signature weapons - that nobody else can use at all - to a 14th level character
You're level 14 and the party Wizard is throwing around Forcecages and Simulacrums.


Unlimited Phantasmal Images seems extremely overpowered, even compared to the preceding
They aren't unlimited. Compare the spell blur to see how effective this ability is.


You'll note that I very carefully placed abilities at levels where they were appropriate to have. Are they strong? Yes (and they should be -- class abilities should be worth spending a level to get). But are they level appropriate? Yes.


Many of the abilities run on character rather than class level right now, encouraging one-and-two dips.
This is not a problem. Every ability should offer a character something even if they don't decide to stick with the class, and the class abilities of future levels are enough of a draw to make most people want to stick with the class.


Fully seconded. I am not sure what makes this a "Tome" PrC, as it does not fit with the milieu.
The "Tome" the category and names refer to are the four and a half sourcebooks, collectively called the Tomes, written by a pair named Frank & K.

[Doc Roc]

The "Tome" the category and names refer to are the four and a half sourcebooks, collectively called the Tomes, written by a pair named Frank & K.

I am aware. I am suggesting that this doesn't fit within the structure of the power balance laid out by the Tomes.

[Surgo]

Okay. I'm not sure how it doesn't fit within that power balance, are you willing to tell me?

[deuxhero]

Unlimited teleporting (that requires scrying or line of sight) isn't that powerful when it takes a standard action, it is effectively +15 movment that ignores obstacles that prevents you from doing pretty much anything that turn. DD at will is pretty much limited to overland travel, most fights are too small to make use of it. You can pounce with it at level 10, but that is a capstone ability.

I think people say it would be overpowered because they are not casters (who can't have nice things)

[Doc Roc]

Actually, it's the first level ability that bugs me, because it steps on the warlock's turf in most people's eyes. The basic problem is that this class is a flood of at-will abilities, some of which are a little more powerful than people seem to think. Getting standard actions is trivially easy, for one thing, and quickening SLAs is also doable. Also, a lot of these things are vulnerable to abuse with something like schism or teflammar shadowlord.

Worse, standard action teleports have two modes:
Incredibly annoying.
Boring and useless.

I know that means little to you, but it means a lot to an enormous portion of the community. I would suggest gently repositioning some of the abilities, and consolidating the many duplicative at-will teleports into a single slicker ability.

[deuxhero]

It's a PRC for Rogues. The only ability Rogues get that can't be used unlimited times are a few of the special abilites IIRC.

As for Quicken SLA, it costs a feat, can be used... 3? times a day,

[Surgo]

Getting standard actions is trivially easy, for one thing
Okay, you're going to have to explain this one to me because I just don't see it in 3.5. The only way I can think of to grab an extra standard action is if you misread Synchronicity. I mean, I guess there's Celerity, but that spell is Wizard 4 so if you want to cast it you either need 7 levels of Wizard (in which case you won't be taking this prestige class) or a scroll (quite a purchase for a 6th level character). Celerity won't do you a whole lot of good anyway -- you aren't a Wizard, you can't use it to retreat or finish off a combo like the classic Wizard Celerity uses.

If you take Quicken Spell-like Ability on Shadow Slide, I'm not going to be upset. At that point in your life you're level 6, and most level 6 characters have three feats. You just spent one of them on Quicken Spell-like Ability, so it had better be worth it.

[Wings of Peace]

Ahahahahaha. So. For the price of 3d6 sneak attack, some skill ranks, and some "Time in the shadows" I can get...

-10d8 Ranged Touch Attack

-Greater Teleport (Get out of jail free card. And by jail I mean most negative situations.)

-Shadow Pounce

-Hide in Plain Sight (Which I notice no longer requires a shadow.)

-Ray Immunity (Unless they're a gish it will be a sad day if a spellcaster beats you at the AB game.)

-5d6 Sneak. (I point this out because it is actually 10d6 if I take this class as a rogue. Many PRCs will at least cost the rogue some small amount of their SA dice)

-ALWAYS count an enemy as flat-footed. (Which means EVERY attack will be at +10d6. Which if you're using TWF and rapid shot is 7. If I'm smart and dip a full BaB class it becomes 8. And god forbid you take a side dip in Factotum for Iaijutsu Strike)

Overall it just seems like an excuse to buff the rogue to me. You cost them what? The ability to sense traps, their special abilities and a few skillpoints? But you keep their full combat abilities with SA and on top of that throw in a ray attack that puts Warlocks to shame, take away the great weakness of Hide in Plain Sight, grant them Shadow Pounce (An ability that has sparked numerous high damage builds by itself alone.), and a slew of other abilities not the least of which is a throwing weapon that will always strike for flat footed damage.

It just doesn't take enough for what it gives. It doesn't actually take anything for what it gives.