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Zaq
2009-09-11, 02:41 AM
So, I think summoning is fun. Whether you're the Malconvoker, or the Druid beastmaster, or the Astral Construct man, or someone who abuses Planar Binding, or just someone who likes to keep a few Summon Monster [Blah] spells on hand, it's a neat archetype and I like it.

The problem, of course, is that summoners really don't play well with others. It's hard to sit down at the table and be a summoner (or perhaps, it's hard to be at the same table as a summoner). There are several reasons for this:

1) Summoning is quite powerful. The action economy gets shattered into tiny bite-size pieces very early on in the summoner's career, and it's versatile as all hell. It's very easy to trample all over your comrades' toes as a summoner, because the summoner doesn't augment allies, he replaces them.

2) Summoning is complex. Even if you look up all of the creatures you can summon ahead of time and print out (or write out) sheets full of stats for the most common ones, that's still a hell of a lot to keep track of, both for you and your GM... and it's even worse if there are any modifiers at all (mass buff spells, a bard, unfavorable circumstances, or whatever).

3) Summoning takes time. I mean actual game time. No matter how organized you are, if you've got half a dozen creatures on the field, your turns are going to take a lot longer than everyone else's are. Even if you know exactly what they're doing instead of agonizing over each decision, just attacking will have enough dice involved to eat up a lot of time, which can be boring or frustrating for your fellow players.

So, today's question is, how do we make a summoner who plays well with others? What's the best way to stay true to the archetype of "oh sure, I've got a creature for that" without A) replacing your friends, B) taking three times as long as the rest of the party combined, or C) self-limiting yourself into uselessness? It's entirely possible to play a buffer or a battlefield controller who doesn't trample all over the rest of the party, but the summoner seems a lot trickier. How would you go about mitigating the problems inherent in the play style?

Tempest Fennac
2009-09-11, 02:50 AM
Only having 1 summoned creature at a time would help a bit. I'm not sure what to recommend for if you want to summon multiple things, though.

Gnorman
2009-09-11, 04:36 AM
Fiendbinder? That might fall under C, though.

Fitz10019
2009-09-11, 04:38 AM
Great topic.

Flanking: Don't summon 2 creatures and then have them flank for each other. Position them to flank with your other party members. If you have an extra, have it block for your caster ally.

Grappling: Summoning a good grappler should be a big help to your rogue ally, for the sake of his sneak attack. Grappling helps other meleers, too, as they can get into position without drawing AoOs. Also, a pinned opponent takes -4 to their AC.

If you're really begging for approval, go for max creature count on every summons and have them all make aid another attacks. Boost your allies' AC and attack rolls, as needed. Fighters and Barbarians love any excuse to bump up their power attack. You're minimizing rolls by only rolling d20s.

These suggestions help the meleers in your group, but would still frustrate an AoE mage as you clutter the battlefield.

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-11, 08:58 AM
These suggestions help the meleers in your group, but would still frustrate an AoE mage as you clutter the battlefield.

To make your blaster buddy happy, try summoning monsters that are immune to his favorite damage type.

Vortling
2009-09-11, 09:07 AM
The best way to do this is only summon one extra monster at a time. Of course you'll need to find a good monster to summon. You can also spend your characters actions buffing said summon if its not quite up to snuff. Mind you that works best for a druid since they have quite a few buffs that only work on animals so the party won't be wondering why you don't drop the buffs on them instead.

Eldan
2009-09-11, 09:13 AM
Just as an idea for an alternative: reflavour. Play something that, by DnD rules, is not actually a summoner and act as if it were. Some suggestions:

Shapeshifter. He is not changing shape, he is calling a creature, binding it to his body and then assuming it's form. Still powerful.

Binder: well, it's kind of a summon.

Incarnum: replace chakras with something similar to the shapeshifter thing I described above. I'm not really familiar with incarnum, but you could probably do it somehow.

ericgrau
2009-09-11, 11:51 AM
The group I'm currently in pre-rolls dice when it's not their turn, which saves a bit of time. The DM also posts monster AC for everyone to see. So when your turn comes you say "my 5 creatures to 54 damage to it. K, I'm done." If the monster has DR then you tell the DM how many attacks were used (since DR is still secret).

It involves some trust that no one will be cheating, but we're all old enough that that isn't an issue.

Grumman
2009-09-11, 12:02 PM
To make your blaster buddy happy, try summoning monsters that are immune to his favorite damage type.
Or play a Malconvoker. RP your character's half-hearted attempts to fake sadness at your demons getting blasted.

BRC
2009-09-11, 12:11 PM
Another option, if you're worried about your turns taking too long, is to hand control of some of your monsters over to other players. Give the rouge a celestial mountain lion to flank with, the Warlock could probably use that brawny Bugbear Zombie you called up to stand between him and that ogre. If you bring summons to the party, bring enough for everybody.

Zaq
2009-09-11, 12:13 PM
The DM also posts monster AC for everyone to see. [. . .] If the monster has DR then you tell the DM how many attacks were used (since DR is still secret).

I won't comment on the effectiveness or lack thereof in your suggestion, but I find your comments here to be surprising when compared to my playstyle. My group has always played it that AC is secret (unless it becomes obvious, of course... if a +17 missed and a +18 hit, guess what the AC is!) and DR is public knowledge. Well, at least that there is DR, and you know if your attack was a) less effective or b) ineffective (so again, if 5 damage is ineffective and 6 damage is less effective, guess what the DR is!)

I'm not saying your playstyle is wrong. Just that my group would find it to be highly nonstandard, so I find this interesting.

Relevant SRD section:

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). (Emphasis added.) We interpret this to mean "you always know if DR applied to your attacks."

Darrin
2009-09-11, 12:50 PM
So, today's question is, how do we make a summoner who plays well with others?

Make the "others" = summonable.


Hmmm. Maybe something similar to Ars Magica, where you've got one summoner (possibly owned/controlled communally, or rotated among the players), and each player has one or more PC/creatures that may be specialized for certain tasks. Although you may still run into downtime issues for players that don't have a character active.

I think I'm getting a little too far out into left field with this one.

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 12:52 PM
I won't comment on the effectiveness or lack thereof in your suggestion, but I find your comments here to be surprising when compared to my playstyle. My group has always played it that AC is secret (unless it becomes obvious, of course... if a +17 missed and a +18 hit, guess what the AC is!) and DR is public knowledge. Well, at least that there is DR, and you know if your attack was a) less effective or b) ineffective (so again, if 5 damage is ineffective and 6 damage is less effective, guess what the DR is!)

I always make both public knowledge. A character can see how hard something is to hit, and if its hits are having the expected effects. I dont tell them what overcomes the DR though, without a knowledge check anyway.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-11, 01:31 PM
I'm not saying your playstyle is wrong. Just that my group would find it to be highly nonstandard, so I find this interesting.

I think his statement is more along the lines of "How much DR it has is still secret" as opposed to "Whether it has DR or not is secret"

icefractal
2009-09-11, 01:56 PM
1) Summon one big creature in preference to several small ones.
2) Or if you do summon several creatures, have some of them aid people.
3) Use creatures with one strong attack (Rhino, Giant Crocodile) instead of ones with a bunch of attacks (Bear, Hippogriff).
4) If your summoned creatures are already kicking ass and your character doesn't really need to do anything, feel free to Delay. It saves time and means you're ready for anything unexpected.
5) Have the stats ready (including templates and summon-boosting feats) before you even think about summoning anything.

Rhiannon87
2009-09-11, 02:10 PM
Or play a Malconvoker. RP your character's half-hearted attempts to fake sadness at your demons getting blasted.

Heh. I've always wanted to play one of those...

Anyways. I'm in a group with a summoner, and we've never had problems with her stealing our thunder. Basically, she does what some other posters have recommended: use them to provide flanking for rogues, draw off other attackers (better to have the monsters gnawing on the summons than on us!), interfere with attacks... she's our only arcane caster, so she usually starts off by doing an AoE before dropping in summons, because by the time summons come into play us melee fighters are already in AoE zone. Or, you know, she just blasts her own summons if it's really necessary.

Indon
2009-09-11, 03:12 PM
Play in a group of all summoners, each person with a different theme.

Like a group of four sorcerors/wizards, each of which summons a different elemental type with their summon spells.

Then have a bard accompany you. >.>

Now everyone's turns take forever!

Alternately, work out with your DM that you only use one summon (again, this involves theming your summoning). Each time you gain a new tier of summoning, your DM advances your summon a few HD. That'll help minimize creature bookkeeping (though you may make the party Druids/Paladins/Rangers jealous).

Grumman
2009-09-11, 03:19 PM
Play in a group of all summoners, each person with a different theme.

Like a group of four sorcerors/wizards, each of which summons a different elemental type with their summon spells.

Then have a bard accompany you. >.>
Can they combine their powers to summon Captain Planet?

Shpadoinkle
2009-09-11, 05:00 PM
Can they combine their powers to summon Captain Planet?

Damn you, I was going to say that. *shakes fist*

Anyway, if the sheer number of summons is presenting a problem, the first idea that coms to mind is to restrict summon spells to exactly one creature each... from the next higher summon spell's list (e.g. Summon Monster 1 lets you summon a single monster from the SM2 list.) Fewer, but more powerful monsters.

My second idea is for the caster to sacrifice some class ability and instead they get a summon that functions like a paladin's mount and advances like a druid's animal companion. Maybe a wizard summoner could sacrifice his wizard bonus feats (including Scribe Scroll) and gets a new summon whenever he'd normally have gotten a feat. For a sorcerer... maybe lose a spell per day from the highest level or two he can cast.

RandomNPC
2009-09-11, 05:32 PM
My groups summoner (druid really) would hold off untill the party really needed the help, then summon the beefy attackers. Things went from the 'you're stealling our thunder' route to 'hey thanks' real quick like.

Zeta Kai
2009-09-11, 05:38 PM
My version of the Final Fantasy X Summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4299590) plays well with others. They do so by doing the following:

They can only summon for a limited time each day.
They must spend a standard action each round concentrating to maintain control of their summoned creature, otherwise the summoning ends.
Without summoning, they are essentially a White Mage, all healing & buffing the other guys in the party.

In these three ways, the Summoner plays nice because they can't outshine the other PCs for long, their own actions are limited while summoning, & they have an assisting role in the party when they aren't summoning. Problem solved.

[/thread]

Leewei
2009-09-11, 05:40 PM
I like RandomNPC's idea. I've played a druid in the past who liked to sandbag. I'd throw buffs and whatever emergency heals I could, but generally held back away from the fight. Whatever I summoned generally didn't do much directly in the fight.

I used Water Elementals to put out the enemy's torches (PCs largely had Darkvision; the NPCs were human slavers).

I'm especially fond of Thoqquas and their ability to tunnel. Need a chasm between you and the bad guys fast? Summon a Thoqqua.

Earth Elementals were the last common summoned critter. Earthglide and Push worked beautifully when flanking and provoking AoOs from the party.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-11, 05:54 PM
Damn you, I was going to say that. *shakes fist*

Anyway, if the sheer number of summons is presenting a problem, the first idea that coms to mind is to restrict summon spells to exactly one creature each... from the next higher summon spell's list (e.g. Summon Monster 1 lets you summon a single monster from the SM2 list.) Fewer, but more powerful monsters.

My second idea is for the caster to sacrifice some class ability and instead they get a summon that functions like a paladin's mount and advances like a druid's animal companion. Maybe a wizard summoner could sacrifice his wizard bonus feats (including Scribe Scroll) and gets a new summon whenever he'd normally have gotten a feat. For a sorcerer... maybe lose a spell per day from the highest level or two he can cast.

This has potential. Now I need to homebrew a refined version of this...

AslanCross
2009-09-11, 06:22 PM
There are certain summoning spells that require Concentration, and as such don't break action advantage.

Summon Hound Archon, for example, lets you summon a Hound Archon at levels (It's a Lv 4 spell) where it still actually matters (I believe Summon Monster only lets you get a Hound Archon much later). It's not an extremely powerful monster, but its inherent abilities make it quite useful in certain situations that are not even necessarily combat.

There are other, similar spells.