View Full Version : Dollhouse (Now with extra spoilers!)
What are your opinions? I'm not going to be very considerate with spoilers here.
I liked it a lot. Episodes 1-5 seemed to be a sort of shape-of-the-week thing for Echo, but episodes 6 onwards were excellent, and very Joss Whedon, involving both humor and drama. Episode 12 was amazing, and Alan Tudyk is one hell of an actor. I've read a post by a person with multiple personality disorder who said that Tudyk's performance was exactly how they feel. I want the guy to win a Best Guest Star award or something. Maybe a bonus.
It also had really funny moments, like all of Tudyk's lines until the Reveal, or Victor's deadpan "We're all gonna die." in that episode where they're all freed. But that's a given in any Joss Whedon work.
I'd also like to add this: To play a doll in Dollhouse, you need a chameleon for an actor. Victor's actor is great, Sierra's actress is good, Alan Tudyk is effing brilliant, but Eliza Dushku is not. It's irritating when an actress portrays a blank slate the same way she does a super thief, or a hostage negotiator. She got mildly better in episode 12, but it still annoyed me. Couldn't she have at least bothered with mildly different accents for most of them?
I actually wasn't a fan of episode 13, unlike the rest of the free world. I would have liked to see the bad future develop in a few episodes than have an episode of bad future. I actually feel kinda cheated. I realize it's a technically sci-fi show, but did they have to make it pure sci-fi? I'm not looking for Firefly The Second, where they're all rebelling against the government and fighting the Reavers/Butchers on the way. Dollhouse is very much its own show with its own brilliance.
I hate to sound all critical. This show is amazing. But it has its flaws, and it could be better.
Hands_Of_Blue
2009-09-11, 10:56 AM
Well, if I recall correctly, when they were making the 13th episode they did not know if they were going to be renewed or not, so they wanted an episode that could serve as an ending to the series if need be. They needed to show the bad future in a single episode, because they didn't know if they were getting more.
JadedDM
2009-09-11, 12:33 PM
I just found the show terribly mediocre. Nothing at all to write home about. It wasn't terrible, but the kind of thing you might turn on just so there is something on while you eat.
Finn Solomon
2009-09-11, 06:02 PM
I will begin watching solely because Summer Glau is joining the cast.
kpenguin
2009-09-11, 06:04 PM
I will begin watching solely because Summer Glau is joining the cast.
Say whaaa...
Philistine
2009-09-11, 06:22 PM
I will begin watching solely because Summer Glau is joining the cast.
WHAT YOU SAY?!?!?!?!?!?!
I mean, ah, can you share any further information on that?
Finn Solomon
2009-09-11, 07:25 PM
:smallconfused: I thought most of you knew already. I've never been a huge fan of Dollhouse, but as a devout worshipper at the Church of Glau I owe it to my faith to take a peek. Here's a few links.
Wired.com- Summer Glau and BSG stars to join cast of Dollhourse. (http://www.wired.com/underwire/2009/08/battlestar-galactica-stars-summer-glau-join-dollhouse/)
TV Guide- Summer Glau to reunite with Joss Whedon in Dollhouse. (http://www.tvguide.com/news/summer-glau-dollhouse-1009251.aspx)
Just Jared.com - Joss Whedon discusses plans for Summer Glau's character on Dollhouse. (http://justjared.buzznet.com/2009/05/28/summer-glau-will-be-back-in-dollhouse/)
"Summer would be perfect to play an active, but she’s done that a lot,” he says. “I’d rather see her play someone who talks too much. The most fun I have is when I get somebody who’s good and comfortable at doing something, and then I make them do something else. Summer said to me, ‘I would like to play a normal girl before I die of extreme old age.’”
Miss Glau is so cute. :smallbiggrin:
Philistine
2009-09-11, 07:46 PM
Thank you. Thank you very much. :smallbiggrin:
That's an interesting list of actors confirmed for guest and/or recurring roles this season.
lisiecki
2009-09-11, 07:51 PM
I will begin watching solely because Summer Glau is joining the cast.
It will be interesting to see if she can play a character who isn't autistic
Finn Solomon
2009-09-11, 08:04 PM
It will be interesting to see if she can play a character who isn't autistic
Miss Glau never played an autistic character, she played characters who exhibit certain personality traits similar to autism because of plot-relevant changes. And she played a somewhat normal girl in The Initiation of Sarah.
kpenguin
2009-09-13, 01:44 AM
Am I the only one here who isn't really enamored with Summer Glau?
Am I the only one here who isn't really enamored with Summer Glau?
I'm not a big Glau fan either. I mean, she's pretty, and Joss utilizes her well. But out of the cast of Firefly, I prefer Alan Tudyk, Nathan Fillion, Adam Baldwin, and Morena Baccarin.
Yoren
2009-09-13, 02:12 AM
This show had a lot of potential but the end product was only so-so. Because they stressed the fact that the dolls were supposed to be SUPER expensive to rent; a lot of the jobs of the week seemed laughable (really, a midwife . . . are you freaking kidding me?!)
Like a lot of the show the build up of the alpha story line was good but the reveal that he was a basic garden variety crazy dude was kinda a let down. Also don't get me started on the fact that Alpha ran from Carolina despite the fact he's just as skilled, bigger, and had a gun.
Now I guess a lot of the problems came from both editing and Fox meddling in the product (like taking out Sierra and November: Bounty Hunters! in the last episode). But in the end it was a very interesting premise without a great deal of payoff. However I really enjoyed episode 13. The whole apocalypse by mindwiping/raping reingnited my interest in the series and is prolly the only reason why i'm tuning in for season 2.
JadedDM
2009-09-13, 03:48 AM
Am I the only one here who isn't really enamored with Summer Glau?
Not the only one, no.
Cheesegear
2009-09-13, 05:02 AM
Am I the only one here who isn't really enamored with Summer Glau?
No. You're not. I am - however - excited for Alexis Denisof. Don't ask me why. My answer wont make sense.
Icewalker
2009-09-13, 12:24 PM
I'll say I'm more excited for the other two mentioned in that first link that was posted: Jamie Bamber and Michael Hogan. Even if they're just single episode guest stars, we're getting Apollo and Tigh in Dollhouse. That's bloody amazing.
Hands_Of_Blue
2009-09-13, 05:52 PM
(really, a midwife . . . are you freaking kidding me?!) I thought that might have been Caroline before she became a doll, or it might have been one of those pro-bono engagements, like the one with the little girl in Briar Rose.
No. You're not. I am - however - excited for Alexis Denisof. Don't ask me why. My answer wont make sense.
He's Wesley Wyndam-Pryce, that's all you need to know.
snoopy13a
2009-09-13, 06:17 PM
This show had a lot of potential but the end product was only so-so. Because they stressed the fact that the dolls were supposed to be SUPER expensive to rent; a lot of the jobs of the week seemed laughable (really, a midwife . . . are you freaking kidding me?!)
We had a dollhouse thread last spring and that topic came up.
Suppose that you are a billionaire and your wife is about to have a baby. The two of you decide to have the baby at home in your mountain getaway. Since you are a billionaire, money is no object so why not hire the best midwife possible? To even make it better, the dollhouse can also add a Mayo Clinic Ob/Gyn imprint in case things go bad. After all, this is one of the biggest moments in your lives.
It makes perfect sense to hire a midwife from the dollhouse if you want the best and more importantly, can afford the best.
Finn Solomon
2009-09-14, 08:52 AM
Am I the only one here who isn't really enamored with Summer Glau?
True faith is a lonely road. Don't worry though, I'm not an evangelist. :smallwink:
thorgrim29
2009-09-14, 10:51 AM
I liked Dollhouse, but I've yet to see the dvd only episode (13 right?). I also have a theory...
You know, in the pilot, Caroline taks to british lady and says that you can't completely clean a chalkboard when they're talking about clean slates? I think that one of the points of the show is that while you can in fact clean a the slate, the slate itself remains and is unique. So, while they are in effect different people, the dolls retain their core personality, their soul if you will, in most of their engagements, and the one where they don't tend to end badly.
So, that would be why Echo is compasionnate, strong willed and has a hero complex, Victor always ends up doing something brave despite the fact that he's scared and knows it's stupid, November is caring and a bit clueless, and Sierra is insecure and prone to panic, while Alpha is a psycho killer.
lisiecki
2009-09-15, 01:05 AM
Miss Glau never played an autistic character, she played characters who exhibit certain personality traits similar to autism because of plot-relevant changes. And she played a somewhat normal girl in The Initiation of Sarah.
I know,
Ill admit, i was trying to be snarky.
But now im curious as to if there IS a tv show that has a autustic killing machine from the future....
artistInTheCode
2009-09-21, 11:42 AM
Being a fan of both Buffy and Angel as well as Firefly, Serenity, Dr. Horrible, my opinion may have a bit of bias to it. That being stated I really enjoyed the character development in Dollhouse. For me, that's the best part of all of Whedon's stuff is that he really presents interesting characters that slowly unfold and grow on you until you can't help but either love/hate them. He also poses some very serious commentary on the transcendence of mortal limits. From money buying you borrowed life, to extending your consciousness to multiple personalities, dollhouse has brought a new interesting twist to what I consider to be sci-fi. Needless to say, I'm excited for the new season.
Coidzor
2009-09-21, 11:48 AM
We had a dollhouse thread last spring and that topic came up.
Suppose that you are a billionaire and your wife is about to have a baby. The two of you decide to have the baby at home in your mountain getaway. Since you are a billionaire, money is no object so why not hire the best midwife possible? To even make it better, the dollhouse can also add a Mayo Clinic Ob/Gyn imprint in case things go bad. After all, this is one of the biggest moments in your lives.
It makes perfect sense to hire a midwife from the dollhouse if you want the best and more importantly, can afford the best.
<_< For that sort of exorbitance, you're better off having a full medical staff waiting in the wings if it needs neonatal care.
artistInTheCode
2009-10-01, 11:34 AM
I'm not quite sure how many people have been keeping up with this thread, but it seems the proper place to post about the newest season.
I am truly pleased with the direction of the show. From the fact that Paul Ballard is becoming Echo's handler, to Whiskey trying to find out who she really is and live with the fact that her personality isn't even real in a biological being born sense.
I truly loved the Topher Whiskey seduction scene because we got a much deeper insight into Topher's character. He truly is playing god and feels responsible for everything he does. He loves to watch his creations grow and mold into real people possibly more than he loves to make the crazy assassins that still need a human connection with the client. It's such a perfect setup of a human taking on a benign god role rather than an evil mastermind.
We now have Langdon in the moral father figure of head of security and the steadfast seemingly emotionless matriarch Dewitt enlisting the enemy to take care of their top and most unpredictable doll. I have a feeling that there are many more dolls in the house playing staff than just Whiskey.
But, I really can't predict what will happen this season, but all I know is that at the end of the 45 minutes, I just want to watch another episode.
Saunders stole the show, and I thought the her-Topher dynamics were amazing.
And "Sociopath in a sweater vest" is my favorite thing to say about anyone anywhere.
artistInTheCode
2009-10-02, 10:15 AM
Saunders stole the show, and I thought the her-Topher dynamics were amazing.
And "Sociopath in a sweater vest" is my favorite thing to say about anyone anywhere.
Haha! Totally fun to say. I agree with you, this really grabbed my attention for the first episode. But I still can't wait to see what happens with Alexis Denisof's character.
kpenguin
2009-10-02, 11:56 PM
Woah. Mama Echo really scared me.
Haha! Totally fun to say. I agree with you, this really grabbed my attention for the first episode. But I still can't wait to see what happens with Alexis Denisof's character.
Who's Alexis Denisof?
Not good with most actors...
And when am I getting my Summer Glau?
zyphyr
2009-10-03, 12:28 PM
Who's Alexis Denisof?
Wesley from Buffy/Angel
While Eliza Dushku's acting can only be classed as so-so when playing most of the engagements and only shines when she's in an "ass-kicking" personality... I have to admit that she also does "crazy mommy" really well too. That part where the guy talks to her and she understands that she's a doll, but then asks if she can be the mommy anyways, was just brilliant.
I do hope they're not planning on phasing out Victor and Whiskey since those two actors are the best on the show by far (excepting maybe Tudyk who is not a regular).
Also I found Alexis Denisof's scenes to be beyond boring... yes we know the Dollhouse does bad stuff, we actually know it a lot better than this guy, is it really necessary to watch him agonize about it...?? Hope his storyline moves forward fast.
Joran
2009-10-08, 03:30 PM
Also I found Alexis Denisof's scenes to be beyond boring... yes we know the Dollhouse does bad stuff, we actually know it a lot better than this guy, is it really necessary to watch him agonize about it...?? Hope his storyline moves forward fast.
He's the Ballard of this season without the kickass scenes or Active lover. I found it dull as well.
In related news, Dollhouse is getting pitiful ratings, similar to ones that they were getting last year at the end. This does not bode well for the show's continued survival.
GoufCustom
2009-10-08, 03:47 PM
I'm only just now looking into the show. Poor timing, since my only source is hulu, and I'm having to go off the last few episodes of season one, and their ten minute recap of it as I dive into season two. But I do have the basic gist of it.
It's enjoyable overall, though nothing fantastic. Tudyk was, of course, amazing there in the end. And I'm greatly anticipating Glau's appearance as well.
However, I can't help but think... am I the only one who gets a bit aggravated over people in the show saying "slavery" when what they really mean is "indentured servitude"? The two are quite different, after all.
zyphyr
2009-10-08, 11:48 PM
However, I can't help but think... am I the only one who gets a bit aggravated over people in the show saying "slavery" when what they really mean is "indentured servitude"? The two are quite different, after all.
Most people aren't really aware of the concept of Indentured Servitude - at most they may have heard the term in a history class once and quickly forgot it. It is exactly the sort of mistake most people are likely to make in the real world, so I find it to be acceptable.
My annoyance comes from the fact that really is a reasonable thing for the characters to do.
The Linker
2009-10-09, 02:46 AM
He's the Ballard of this season without the kickass scenes or Active lover.
Hey, now, don't be so sure, eh? Took us six episodes to find out last time. :smalltongue:
kpenguin
2009-10-11, 02:38 AM
Man, Victor's actor... Enver Gjokaj... does so much better with playing different personalities than Eliza Duskhu
Enver Gjokaj should win awards for this show. He's absolutely brilliant. I haven't decided if he's as good or better or almost as good as Alan Tudyk.
This was the best episode of the season so far, IMO. It was funny, it was dramatic, it showed some advancement (although not in the plot), and it showed a new side to Topher that desperately needed showing. He's not merely a sociopath in a sweater vest.
Now where is Amy Acker? I want my Acker back!
chiasaur11
2009-10-11, 02:32 PM
Man, Victor's actor... Enver Gjokaj... does so much better with playing different personalities than Eliza Duskhu
He is remarkably good.
Looking at IMDB, it seems Dollhouse is one of his first big roles. Here's hoping he gets more high profile work, since he does manage distinct characters quite well.
snoopy13a
2009-10-11, 04:54 PM
I am waiting for the senator character to show an evil side because it is impossible to have a good guy in this show.
Also, I'd think the Dollhouse would be losing customers due to their recent mishaps. Last week's client almost had his son get killed, this week's client nearly got murdered. If the Dollhouse advertises via word of mouth (which it certainly seems like) then news of these incidents would get through the customer base.
So, Eliza Dushku does an alright job of her scenes while Enver Gjokaj frickin' blows it out of the water yet again. I wonder how it's gotta feel to be upstaged that frequently on a show that was originally supposed to showcase *your* versatility. One talks about scenes being stolen, sometimes whole movies, but a whole series? Damn.
Anyway, the episode = awesome. Some logic holes you could drive several trucks through as usual, but well delivered and engaging anyway, I thought.
In related news, Dollhouse is getting pitiful ratings, similar to ones that they were getting last year at the end. This does not bode well for the show's continued survival.
It's getting cancelled... I don't think many people have unrealistic expectations about that... doesn't mean we can't appreciate it while it lasts :smallsmile:
...and yeah, I also want Whiskey back. I've heard a rumor that
She's only due to appear on two more episodes and that's it :(
So yeah... it is what it is.
DomaDoma
2009-10-11, 06:20 PM
I am waiting for the senator character to show an evil side because it is impossible to have a good guy in this show.
He doesn't need to be evil. His ultimate goal is to get Rossum to share its tech. :smallamused:
thorgrim29
2009-10-11, 08:54 PM
Thus kablowie, thus death?
Lamech
2009-10-11, 08:59 PM
A sign that something is wrong...
1)Topher saying he has ethical concerns about it.
DomaDoma
2009-10-11, 09:01 PM
Thus kablowie, thus death?
Basically.
In other news, Victor-as-Kiki is the biggest laugh I've had all week.
Alteran
2009-10-12, 01:02 AM
Basically.
In other news, Victor-as-Kiki is the biggest laugh I've had all week.
Agreed. I hated that character, until they switched her into Victor's body. :smallbiggrin:
The Linker
2009-10-12, 01:33 AM
Definitely the best episode of the season so far. Also contained the Crowning Moment of Funny for the entire series. :smallbiggrin:
I don't think I'm alone in thinking there's pretty much no chance of a third season at this rate, but I really hope we get through the second season. Or at least most of it. At least let Summer do her thing! And the Commander Adama guy!
Sholos
2009-10-12, 10:41 AM
Wait, Summer Glau was in that episode? Where?
Thus kablowie, thus death?
You kinda need to watch the "Epitaph 1" episode to fully get it, but basically
Rossum's brain-tech going public eventually leads to the Zombie Apocalypse and world war seen in that episode.
Wait, Summer Glau was in that episode? Where?
She wasn't in that episode; she is supposedly
scheduled to appear in two episode's time, and be present in a couple episodes as Topher's "resident bio-computer genius" counterpart in another Dollhouse.
snoopy13a
2009-10-12, 06:25 PM
You kinda need to watch the "Epitaph 1" episode to fully get it, but basically
Rossum's brain-tech going public eventually leads to the Zombie Apocalypse and world war seen in that episode.
That's kinda of a cliche now isn't it?
Not planning on watching Epitaph 1 as I'm too cheap to fork over the cash.
Philistine
2009-10-12, 07:39 PM
The "Commander Adama guy" (Jamie Bamber) was in the first episode of the season - he's already "done his thing."
That's kinda of a cliche now isn't it?
*shrug* Maybe... can't say I really care :smallsmile:
The "Commander Adama guy" (Jamie Bamber) was in the first episode of the season - he's already "done his thing."
Actually I've heard rumors that the other Adama (yeah, that Adama) is also due to appear, but I haven't been able to substantiate it.
Edit -> Actually, since I haven't been able to even find a whisper of this online, it's entirely possible that the person that told me this was just mixing up her Adamas at the time. So take it with a grain of salt...
The Linker
2009-10-12, 08:49 PM
Actually I've heard rumors that the other Adama (yeah, that Adama) is also due to appear, but I haven't been able to substantiate it.
Edit -> Actually, since I haven't been able to even find a whisper of this online, it's entirely possible that the person that told me this was just mixing up her Adamas at the time. So take it with a grain of salt...
Ah, well, yeah, I was thinking of Commander Adama Sr. Oh well. I never really watched Battlestar Galactica anyway, but I was still interested to see that guy's role. I didn't even recognize Commander Adama Jr. :smalltongue:
Joran
2009-10-12, 09:17 PM
Ah, well, yeah, I was thinking of Commander Adama Sr. Oh well. I never really watched Battlestar Galactica anyway, but I was still interested to see that guy's role. I didn't even recognize Commander Adama Jr. :smalltongue:
He actually uses his British accent. Jamie Bamber is from the UK, but has a pretty good American accent.
http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/10/fox-we-will-air-all-13-dollhouse-episodes.html
Good news everyone... kind of. Fox will air all 13 episodes of Dollhouse for this season. On the negative note, they aren't ordering more so it's probably kaput, but not officially yet.
On the plus side, Joss Whedon will wrap things up again, somewhat like Epitaph One did, in case it is the last episode.
The Linker
2009-10-12, 09:23 PM
Good news everyone... kind of. Fox will air all 13 episodes of Dollhouse for this season. On the negative note, they aren't ordering more so it's probably kaput, but not officially yet.
That is good news. :smallbiggrin: But... not that I expect a third season, but is it really unusual for a network to not order more episodes when it's so early in the season? We had to wait quite a while after season One ended to get the word on its renewal, right?
Still! Good news. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:
Joran
2009-10-13, 09:54 AM
That is good news. :smallbiggrin: But... not that I expect a third season, but is it really unusual for a network to not order more episodes when it's so early in the season? We had to wait quite a while after season One ended to get the word on its renewal, right?
Still! Good news. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:
Well, Dollhouse was a mid-season replacement last year, so they could wait on a renewal decision until the end of the season and not delay production for the Fall.
For Fall shows, studios need to decide now whether to order more episodes. Most new shows (and shows that the studio isn't completely dedicated to) will have a 13 episode order, which will last the Fall but will have none in the Spring; the network usually has an option to order more if the show is successful to cover the Spring.
Since Dollhouse is a Fall show this time around, that means they're still filming as we speak. Once they hit 13 episodes, they'll stop, so there won't be any episodes to air in the Spring. These 13 episodes are it for Dollhouse this season; they can't restart production fast enough. On the flip side, something like Glee has already had it's order expanded so the show can keep producing new episodes for this season.
The Linker
2009-10-13, 02:41 PM
Oh! When you said they didn't order more episodes, I thought you meant as in season 3 episodes, as opposed to the second half of season 2. That makes more sense.
Sneak
2009-10-17, 09:06 PM
So, no Dollhouse yesterday. I was surprised.
In any case, I think the new season has been fairly good. Better than the beginning of the first season, anyway. I really liked the Topher/Whiskey interaction in the first episode, so I'm hoping Saunders returns, although apparently Amy Acker's on a new show now. Which is good for her, but bad for us as Dollhouse watchers. The serial killer and mommy episodes were also pretty good and very creepy. Although I think they really didn't utilize the talent of their guest stars very well—there was all this hype about Michael Hogan and Jamie Bamber, and they really didn't do much. As a Battlestar Galactica fan, I was disappointed.
I'm glad that they're going to air all the episodes, though.
But honestly, I'm kind of hoping that it'll get cancelled. It's not that I hate the show—I don't. I think it's pretty good. I don't love it, though, and I loved Dr. Horrible and Firefly (although I didn't care much for Buffy or Angel).
My point is, I think Joss Whedon is capable of great things, and while Dollhouse isn't decent, I wouldn't call it great. And if Dollhouse gets cancelled, it'll free up his schedule to work on other, potentially better, things (Dr. Horrible sequel, anyone?).
snoopy13a
2009-10-17, 09:14 PM
So, no Dollhouse yesterday. I was surprised.
It got preempted for the baseball playoffs. There might not be an episode next Friday for the same reason.
kpenguin
2009-10-23, 11:55 PM
Topher is now officially my favorite character of the lot.
Sneak
2009-10-24, 02:08 AM
I thought that the episode tonight (well, technically last night), which I just watched, was fantastic, perhaps the best episode yet. I would go into more detail, but I should be getting to bed right about now. Still, though, it gives me hope—even though Dollhouse is likely getting cancelled, at least it'll go out with a bang.
I thought that the episode tonight (well, technically last night), which I just watched, was fantastic, perhaps the best episode yet. I would go into more detail, but I should be getting to bed right about now. Still, though, it gives me hope—even though Dollhouse is likely getting cancelled, at least it'll go out with a bang.
Yeah, it was nice to see an episode Not about Echo or focused on a single engagement.
Also, it's surprising that the threat of being Fired made DeWitt back down, but not Topher. I suspected Rossom would get gradually more evil as the season progressed, and that the various Dollhouse employees would start resisting in some way. But I figured Dewitt would start before Topher.
DomaDoma
2009-10-24, 04:11 PM
Also, it's surprising that the threat of being Fired made DeWitt back down, but not Topher. I suspected Rossom would get gradually more evil as the season progressed, and that the various Dollhouse employees would start resisting in some way. But I figured Dewitt would start before Topher.
Fired and replaced with someone more compliant - with murder heavily implied. Anyway, she definitely didn't seem surprised by Boyd's report, so I'm inclined to believe that she at least thought there was a good chance her people would play this way.
Speaking of Boyd, can't wait to see what goes down with that keycard.
Mauve Shirt
2009-10-24, 07:50 PM
This was an awesome episode! I love it when it focuses on the employees of the dollhouse and evil Rossom more than Echo's engagement.
Also, Sierra and Victor! Hooray! :smallbiggrin:
I think there is a major problem with me.
This show has such women as Eliza Dushku, Amy Acker, Dichen Lachman, and Miracle Laurie, and the cast member I'm obsessed with is Enver Gjokaj.
This is like my Michael C Hall crush but worse.
I'm also a huge Topher fan, especially after this episode.
Wow, loved that episode! Sierra and Victor = so much more interesting (and better acted) than Echo, and Boyd = 10000000x more badass and entertaining than Ballard.
If episodes like this had been the norm from the beginning (ie if FOX hadn't meddled) likely we wouldn't be facing a near-guaranteed cancellation nowadays. Sadly the next episodes will likely slip back into the old Echo/Ballard duo and make everybody lose interest again. Such is life and TV.
Alteran
2009-10-25, 12:54 PM
I wasn't actually a big Sierra fan before. Now I am.
Also, my love for Topher has been reinforced! :smallbiggrin: (And the seeds of his madness are becoming more apparent.)
Sholos
2009-10-25, 11:12 PM
So, did anyone see:
Pretty big spoiler here
Boyd's mob connections
coming? I was completely surprised by that one.
So, did anyone see:
Pretty big spoiler here
Boyd's mob connections
coming? I was completely surprised by that one.
Yeah, It's been assumed that he was an Ex-Cop, but was that ever actually confirmed?
chiasaur11
2009-10-25, 11:38 PM
Yeah, It's been assumed that he was an Ex-Cop, but was that ever actually confirmed?
Well, like DeWitt said, everybody's morally compromised.
Philistine
2009-10-26, 01:02 AM
Yeah, It's been assumed that he was an Ex-Cop, but was that ever actually confirmed?
He still could be - there must be some reason why he's now an ex-cop. And if mobsters have connections in the police, then it stands to reason that some cops must in turn have mob connections. Maybe Rossum draws Handlers from the same pool as Dolls? (That is to say, the "You're in big trouble, but if you sign on the line we'll make it all go away for you" pool.) That could be what Adele meant by the whole "we're all morally compromised here" bit.
Awesome episode. IMO, this is the first episode of the show that really compares to the best eps of BtVS, Angel, and Firefly; it's a pity that it didn't appear until (most likely) two-thirds of the way through the show's run.
DomaDoma
2009-10-26, 10:06 AM
For the record, Hearn called him an ex-cop in episode three. You may thank the one person on this board who actually liked episode three.
I got the impression, from the way Boyd talked to "The Goose" about Dissappearing someone, that this was not the first time he had asked for such a thing. Of course, it's possible he was corrupt, but I find that unlikely.
My thought is that he was Undercover inside the Mob. When, in the course of being an undercover mobster, he did something he really disagreed with, his Moral Compromise. He couldn't go back to the force after that, so he got recruited by the Dollhouse.
artistInTheCode
2009-10-26, 12:06 PM
Fired and replaced with someone more compliant - with murder heavily implied. Anyway, she definitely didn't seem surprised by Boyd's report, so I'm inclined to believe that she at least thought there was a good chance her people would play this way.
Speaking of Boyd, can't wait to see what goes down with that keycard.
I really don't think that murder was heavily implied. Considering she is the head of the dollhouse they could do much worse things than fire or kill her. They could put her in the attic or worse, use her as a puppet to do their bidding. Not like they aren't already using her for that.
On another note, this episode was pretty exciting, although, a bit predictable. Toepher seems to have very few moral boundaries, but the ones he has, are pretty rigid it seems. The fact that Dewitt told him he had no morals spurs him to make decisions before thinking them all the way through. Anyways, I think this show has been pretty effective with the social commentary while still developing and revealing interesting characters along the way.
I was kind of astonished at how much Whedon ripped off Gunslinger Girl when I first watched the show (Of course it was the same thing with Firefly and Outlaw Star) But after marathoning the entire thing, I'm excited at the direction it is going in.
chiasaur11
2009-10-26, 02:05 PM
I was kind of astonished at how much Whedon ripped off Gunslinger Girl when I first watched the show (Of course it was the same thing with Firefly and Outlaw Star) But after marathoning the entire thing, I'm excited at the direction it is going in.
I will allow Shamus Young to express my outrage for me (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=573).
Aside from the fact that he points out differences and calls that refuting he doesn't address at all the character similarities or the MYSTERIOUS SPACE GIRL THAT SHOWS UP IN A BOX. Blatantly rips that off. I like both shows, but I don't think there is any getting around the obvious things Whedon took from that series.
The Linker
2009-10-26, 04:50 PM
The scratchings of snippets of memory on the underside of Echo's pod door chilled the CRAP out of me. Especially considering we saw it just after we saw Boyd showing concern because of her conserving her memory with a BOOKMARK.
Coincidentally, this was the same episode in which I realized that the Season 2 opening sequence is pretty much purely a parade through Echo's many, many different personas, and that her S&M persona wasn't just included for Fanservice In Every Title Sequence -- it was just in the list. And one of the scratchings reads 'PAIN IS GOOD.'
Also seen was, I think, 'I LOVE MY BABY', 'NOT MY BABY', and 'MOUNTAINS ARE SAFE'. That's all I can remember. I had to pause to take it all in. :smalleek:
I love it. I finally think of Echo as a growing character, and have concrete proof as to how much she's remembering and how self-aware she is. I always wondered...
The scratchings of snippets of memory on the underside of Echo's pod door chilled the CRAP out of me. Especially considering we saw it just after we saw Boyd showing concern because of her conserving her memory with a BOOKMARK.
Coincidentally, this was the same episode in which I realized that the Season 2 opening sequence is pretty much purely a parade through Echo's many, many different personas, and that her S&M persona wasn't just included for Fanservice In Every Title Sequence -- it was just in the list. And one of the scratchings reads 'PAIN IS GOOD.'
Also seen was, I think, 'I LOVE MY BABY', 'NOT MY BABY', and 'MOUNTAINS ARE SAFE'. That's all I can remember. I had to pause to take it all in. :smalleek:
I love it. I finally think of Echo as a growing character, and have concrete proof as to how much she's remembering and how self-aware she is. I always wondered...
I don't think the Bookmark was significant because she was using it to record her memory, but because it showed that she was Reading. On that note, the fact that she's writing on the underside of her pod thingy is a big deal.
That said, the "Blank" dolls appear to retain memories from between engagements. They recognize each other by name, and have been shown to work on a single project between different engagements (The Bonzai trees). So I think the "Blank" persona isn't so much a tabula rasa, as a very bare bones imprint designed to keep the Dolls in shape (I want to be my best) complaint, and easy to take care of.
The Linker
2009-10-26, 05:41 PM
I don't think the Bookmark was significant because she was using it to record her memory, but because it showed that she was Reading.
I thought I remembered Boyd saying something like "To remember her place," but I could be imagining things/uncousciously filling in what I thought was unspoken. :smalltongue:
This is what I found, with my commentary in ():
Right:
Where is Caroline?
I am her. (Pretty self explanatory)
Friends help each other (I don't remember where this is from. I think episode 9 or 8. The one with Sierra's rape)
Shoulder to the Wheel (Episode 2 season 1, Connell tells her this)
Ghosts aren't real (I don't know where this is from)
Mountains are safe (She keeps having mountain flashbacks. No clue why, or what their relevance is, but I'm convinced that hardcore fanboys have three favorite theories, and much of the fandom is divided because of which one they like more)
Topher makes me (I think there's something after it, but I'm not sure)
Dominic was bad. (there's a word after bad. that I can't make out)
(Indecipherable scrawl that I think spells remember)
Victor loves S(I think the rest can be safely said to be ierra)
Sierra lo(I think the rest can be assumed to be ves Victor)
T(Can't see the rest)
Dr(can't see the rest)
Left:
The attic is bad. (I think it's something she picked up)
I was trained to kill (No clue about this one)
My son killed me (A reference to episode 10, S1)
I have a right to survive (I can't see the I but I'm inferring it because I'm AWESOME. Obviously a reference to episode 2, S1)
(something) and bought me a house. (I think it's a reference to episode 7, season 1. Can't remember the episode number well, I think it's 7. Or 8. The one with the internet guy. I think it's called "Man on the street")
Blue skies. (episode 4 season 1 reference WOOO)
I love my baby.
The baby isn't mine.
I like pan (presumably she would finish it with cakes)
Women are whores
I tried to wake (can't make this out, but I think it's the end to episode 1 or 3 season 1, when we have that flashback of her dripping blood in the shower, surrounded by bodies)
I'll see if I can provide pictures later. I actually know I can, I just don't know if I will. MUAHAHAHAH I AM EVIL FOR LEAVING YOU TENSE NOW YOU WILL DIE OF STRESS.
nonbeliever93
2009-10-27, 06:28 AM
This is what I found, with my commentary in ():
Right:
Shoulder to the (W or V begins this word, can't see the rest of the letters, but I think this one's a W) That'd be wheel. It's what Connell told her in 1.02, with the chest thumping thing...
Do(something I can't make out well, I think it ends with a G) was bad. Dominic?(there's a word after bad. that I can't make out)
Left:
I was trained to kill (No clue about this one) Probably one of her killer imprints. Like the one from 1.06 that went after Ballard
I like (can't make out) Pancakes? I remember that being something an Active saidd
(Can't make out) whores Women are...?
Made some suggestions about the words on the glass above. It was a pretty awesome continuity-gasm.
Do(something) is Dominic, will edit.
Shoulder to the wheel makes sense, will edit.
What's written is pan. I'll edit and make a note.
And women are whores also makes sense. I must be blind.
Joran
2009-10-27, 11:25 AM
Aside from the fact that he points out differences and calls that refuting he doesn't address at all the character similarities or the MYSTERIOUS SPACE GIRL THAT SHOWS UP IN A BOX. Blatantly rips that off. I like both shows, but I don't think there is any getting around the obvious things Whedon took from that series.
Just because people get the same idea isn't the same as "blatantly rips off". Look at Neil Gaiman's Timothy Hunter and J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter. Timothy Hunter is a young magician who goes to a Wizard's school. On top of that, he has black frame glasses, has a pet owl, and is British.
Superficially, the main characters are quite striking, but in depth, they're completely different. Likewise with Gunslinger Girls vs. Dollhouse and Firefly vs. Outlaw Star. There are some superficial conceptual similarities that I can see, but plot wise and idea wise, they are quite different.
In particular, with Gunslinger Girls, it grapples with the morality of taking young girls and making them killing machines. In Dollhouse, assassinations are less of a factor and instead it really deals with identity and memory.
P.S. To be honest, when I first heard the concept, I immediately went to Dark City, but I'm enjoying it so far. I do agree that Echo is the weakest link of the cast, probably followed up by Ballard.
Philistine
2009-10-27, 12:23 PM
I was kind of astonished at how much Whedon ripped off Gunslinger Girl when I first watched the show (Of course it was the same thing with Firefly and Outlaw Star) But after marathoning the entire thing, I'm excited at the direction it is going in.
You know, there are a lot of people in the world who've never watched either of those series. There are even a fair number of people in the world who don't watch any anime at all. Unless you know that Whedon watched them, and that he did so either before or as he developed his own projects, calling those projects "ripoffs" cannot be justified.
Joran
2009-10-27, 03:24 PM
You know, there are a lot of people in the world who've never watched either of those series. There are even a fair number of people in the world who don't watch any anime at all. Unless you know that Whedon watched them, and that he did so either before or as he developed his own projects, calling those projects "ripoffs" cannot be justified.
Indeed. It is possible for two people to come up with the similar ideas completely unaware of the other. "Ripoff" means "to copy or imitate blatantly or unscrupulously". I'm fairly sure we can come to an agreement that Dollhouse is substantially different from Gunslinger Girls. In fact, outside of the whole handlers and brainwashed agents, I can't see any major similarities.
P.S. Thanks a lot to Pita and nonbeliever's work. I can now safely delete that episode from my DVR, instead of trying madly to figure out what's scrawled on the inside of her sleeping unit.
Sholos
2009-10-27, 09:37 PM
Not to mention that almost every theme/subject you see in entertainment has been done somewhere before. Remember, there are no original ideas, only original interpretations.
Hands_Of_Blue
2009-10-27, 11:08 PM
This is what I found, with my commentary in ():
Ghosts aren't real (I don't know where this is from)
Topher makes me (I think there's something after it, but I'm not sure)
I believe the ghost one is from the series premiere. If I recall correctly her negotiator imprint made multiple references to "You can't kill a ghost" during the episode.
The Topher one is most likely "Topher makes me different", seeing how Echo knows Topher imprints the dolls.
Philistine
2009-10-28, 08:41 PM
... So apparently Dollhouse will not be airing during the month of November, a period of time which is also known as sweeps month. I cannot think of anything this could possibly mean other than "Fox has officially given up on the show now, they just haven't publicly announced the cancellation yet." :smallfrown:
Tirian
2009-10-28, 09:37 PM
... So apparently Dollhouse will not be airing during the month of November, a period of time which is also known as sweeps month. I cannot think of anything this could possibly mean other than "Fox has officially given up on the show now, they just haven't publicly announced the cancellation yet." :smallfrown:
If nothing else, they are currently saying that they're going to air the rest of season 2 (showing back-to-back episodes in December to make up for not showing any in November). But if Fox thinks that they'll get better advertising numbers showing reruns of House instead of first-run Dollhouse, then that's probably all you need to know about how they'd feel about paying for a third season.
Philistine
2009-10-31, 01:22 PM
Or even the second half of Season 2.
Tirian
2009-11-11, 04:33 PM
And down it goes (http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/11/dollhouse-canceled.html).
Mauve Shirt
2009-11-11, 04:50 PM
:smalleek: NOOOOOOOOO!
:smallfrown:
Alteran
2009-11-11, 04:52 PM
I'm honestly not surprised at all, but I'm still very sad. :smallfrown:
And the last episode was amazing! If the upward trend remained, then...aaargh, the lost potential!
Philistine
2009-11-11, 11:24 PM
I'm honestly not surprised at all, but I'm still very sad. :smallfrown:
And the last episode was amazing! If the upward trend remained, then...aaargh, the lost potential!
Too bad the upward trend in quality was accompanied by a downward trend in the ratings. Even with DVR and online watchers counted, the number of viewers just kept falling and falling. :smallfrown:
...
They canceled this for...
For GLEE! And other, bad, network things! Finally, some amazing piece of Network TV comes out and those EXPLETIVEDELETED canceled it!
At least I have... 9 more episodes (or was that 8?).
I'd be willing to have Dexter canceled so this show goes on. Maybe a chance for a movie, like he did with Firefly?
zyphyr
2009-11-12, 08:11 AM
They didn't cancel it for Glee. They canceled it for whatever they replace it with.
I said "And other bad network shows"
Unless they replace it with more seasons of Dollhouse, I'm going to remain pissed.
Joran
2009-11-12, 10:33 AM
I said "And other bad network shows"
Unless they replace it with more seasons of Dollhouse, I'm going to remain pissed.
Blame your fellow TV viewers; Dollhouse was getting abysmal ratings.
Personally, I think Joss Whedon should go to cable. More freedom, less ratings needed to stay on the air. 2-3 million viewers is a decent hit on cable, 2-3 million on broadcast gets you canceled.
zyphyr
2009-11-12, 12:11 PM
Going to cable seems like a good idea to me. Plenty of good shows being made for cable - arguably more than are being made for the broadcast networks.
DomaDoma
2009-11-13, 12:08 AM
Besides, the cable/broadcast divide is pretty meaningless nowadays.
...
At least we have a fair idea of where the damn series is going.
Joran
2009-11-13, 10:30 AM
Besides, the cable/broadcast divide is pretty meaningless nowadays.
...
At least we have a fair idea of where the damn series is going.
All the episodes are going to be aired and Dollhouse is still in production so they have an opportunity to end the story in a nice way.
DomaDoma
2009-11-13, 12:32 PM
Yeah, but they've got but two episodes they can change. There's only so much you can do with that.
Joran
2009-11-13, 01:22 PM
Yeah, but they've got but two episodes they can change. There's only so much you can do with that.
Well, I'd assume they planned this season with the idea that they might have to wrap it up in their allocated 13 episodes. The second season premiere had similarly terrible ratings, so they had some lead time.
I'm guessing we're going to be left hanging for this season, but they'll wrap it up in a Epitaph Two future episode.
The Linker
2009-12-05, 07:36 AM
Dollhouse is back! Just watched today's two episodes:
I didn't think I could love Enver Gjokaj anymore than I already did. That man is a genius. Spot-on Dominic, spot-on Terry, spot-on Kikki, and now spot-on Topher. That was un-freaking-believable. I want a spinoff so we can get him as the main character.
"It wouldn't be a second opinion! It would the same opinion twice!"
Now, I remember Summer Glau saying to Joss that she wanted to play a normal person before she grew old. Now, I'm pretty sure that still hasn't happened, Ms. Let's Cause Pain To Helpless People And Oh Hey I'll Smash My Head On A Window Because That's How Hard I Want My Revege. :smallamused:
...Anyone else start to get sick of all the one-punch-and-you're-out's? Seemed like there was an over-reliance on it. Even Topher did it. That's going too far. :smalltongue:
Those two episodes were very very good.
Me saying good things about Enver Gjokaj has been getting old, so I'll just repeat myself again once: God exists, and he's... whatever nationality Gjokaj is. My Russian friend assured me that Gjokaj is not a Russian name, nor anything in that general area, so I'm stumped. It definitely isn't a Jewish name. Not an American one, either. Hmm...
Summer Glau was amazing, but that was unsurprising. She was more amazing than usual. I definitely prefer psycho-nerd to psycho-robot or psycho-psychic. She needs to have scenes with Enver. Maybe where she doesn't know he's a doll, or something.
Also,
Everybody was expecting the wife to turn out to be a doll. Everybody. And then they say it in the show, and I say "Has Joss become predictable?" And then he proves that no, he hasn't.
zyphyr
2009-12-05, 12:05 PM
According to the bios I found with Google, Enver's father is Albanian so I assume that is the origin of the name.
kpenguin
2009-12-05, 03:27 PM
Wait, there was Dollhouse yesterday?
Boop
Alteran
2009-12-05, 03:33 PM
I am very glad that Dollhouse if back, even if it's only for a little while. I watched those episodes, and my verdict? Awesome. I just hope that all of the remaining episodes are this good...although that might make me even more bitter about the show's cancellation.
...Anyone else start to get sick of all the one-punch-and-you're-out's? Seemed like there was an over-reliance on it. Even Topher did it. That's going too far. :smalltongue:
To be fair, he did it to a rather frail-looking girl. And he hurt his hand anyway. :smalltongue:
Meshakhad
2009-12-06, 08:09 PM
Fox, please go die in a fire.
Those episodes were AWESOME. Senator Perrin as a Doll, Faith & Wesley together again, Enver's spot-on performance as Topher, and Adelle grabbing Ray Wise by the balls.
Also, I'm of the opinion that Joss should try making a web original series next. Dollhouse is getting good views on DVR, iTunes downloads, and Hulu, which says a lot about his fanbase. I say ditch TV and go for the web. Enver and Felicia can star.
chiasaur11
2009-12-06, 08:22 PM
Enver may be one of the best actors of the current generation. I mean, geeze. Dude has versatility.
thorgrim29
2009-12-06, 08:33 PM
I don't understand why the guy keeps trying, I mean he must know he has a pretty niche fanbase, and isn't exactly striving for mainstream with Dollhouse, so why go with Fox at all (well, other then budget)?
Zocelot
2009-12-06, 08:35 PM
I don't think many people expected Perrin's wife to be a doll, it was just too obvious, and it had already been pulled way too many times. Still, having Perrin as a more ambitious and responsible version of himself was very interesting. And I can't say any more than everyone else on how incredible two Tophers was, especially with Enver as one of them.
Dollhouse will be renewed for a third season. However, Enver will play every character. It will be considered the greatest show on television.
But seriously, I would not be surprised if one of Joss Whedon's secret goals was to have victor, at some point, get imprinted with every non-doll major male character. So far we've got Dominic and Topher, which means we just need Victor-Boyd and Victor-Ballard.
Also, I've been watching Reaper on Hulu recently, so my first thought was "DC Dollhouse is run by the Devil"
kpenguin
2009-12-07, 03:53 AM
Did anyone else find Bennett and Toph's interactions full of nerdy cute squeeness? Despite already knowing that Bennett was a sadist... it was so... cute...
Did anyone else find Bennett and Toph's interactions full of nerdy cute squeeness? Despite already knowing that Bennett was a sadist... it was so... cute...
I was convinced it was the point.
Woo nerd Summer!
thorgrim29
2009-12-08, 10:42 PM
Wow, Bree is the most quotable version of Echo yet
-I think her bad guys are badder then my bad guys
-You just woke up a lot of people, and they all think you're a bitch
Zocelot
2009-12-11, 10:52 PM
Dollhouse will be renewed for a third season. However, Enver will play every character. It will be considered the greatest show on television.
Alan Tudyk gives Enver a run for his money. He's not as versatile, but he's better at what he does.
Speaking of which, I want to drool like a fanboy (which I am) over tonight's episodes. A ****load of progress was made in the overall plot, and Alpha being back made my week.
Sneak
2009-12-12, 02:24 AM
Yeah, wow. These last four episodes have all been fantastic. I think I liked the two Perrin episodes better, but these were still very good. Of the two, I think I liked the first one better.
Echo as a person was very interesting, and I quite liked the Adelle/Topher bit. Patton Oswalt did a pretty good job as the client guy, and of course Tudyk is always great. I did think they kind of overdid the whole joker vibe this episode, what with the weird mismatched suit with the funky colors, especially because (IIRC) he never had particular affinity for suits in previous episodes.
I was sad that Summer Glau was gone, though. :( Topher's right, she's got nerd-hot down to a science.
The Linker
2009-12-12, 06:02 PM
Man, it's creepy seeing all the pieces of the Epitaph One apocalypse coming together. It's getting closer and closer...
Too bad they had to sub Ballard's voice over Ballard!Alpha's speech. Enver wouldn't have needed subbing. <3 :smalltongue:
Edit: Huh! According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dollhouse_episodes), Episode 7 was the most-watched episode of Season 2, with 2.72 million viewers (which is still lower than anything in season one). It dropped sharply to 2.09 million for the next episode, though. Sorta weird, since only 0.2 million dropped off between the episodes in last week's double feature. Wonder what that means.
Hands_Of_Blue
2009-12-12, 06:50 PM
This episode makes how Alpha becomes an ally in Epitath One, before I thought it was just "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", but with Alpha shoving Ballard into his head, he's basically given himself a conscience. And if Echo is any indication, once he puts something in his head, it's there for good.
Zocelot
2009-12-12, 11:14 PM
Man, it's creepy seeing all the pieces of the Epitaph One apocalypse coming together. It's getting closer and closer...
Too bad they had to sub Ballard's voice over Ballard!Alpha's speech. Enver wouldn't have needed subbing. <3 :smalltongue:
Don't really see why taking an imprint of someone would change the way your voice sounds. Maybe a lisp or something could be added, but it would make a lot more sense if Ballard's words sounded like Alpha.
I think 8 was the best episode so far. I loved it. Parts of it reminded me of the best bits of TDK (Where they don't know where the Joker will strike next, and when he does, it's scary). Alpha was definitely channeling Joker in a big way, especially with "It was a blast".
Ballard's death was shocking. I fully expected him to survive. Goddamn Joss, now I know how Firefly fans felt watching Serenity.
Alan Tudyk was brilliant, although I have to echo the sentiment that if it were Gjokaj, we wouldn't have had to have Tahmoh do a voice-over. Gjokaj is god. I think if Victor were to die I really would cry.
Also, while I generally have nothing but complaints against Eliza's acting, she definitely did a good job here. Nothing noteworthy had it been the other actors, but definitely something good.
The Linker
2009-12-13, 05:50 AM
He's only braindead. I'm sure he'll be back eventually. Echo will be trying to find a way to bring him back for episodes to come, believe you me. :smalltongue:
kpenguin
2009-12-13, 05:52 AM
At the very least, Ballard lives in Alpha, however small a part he may be
thorgrim29
2009-12-13, 12:27 PM
My guess is they'll dollify him and imprint him into him. And yes, Alan Tudyk is brilliant, but I can't help but feel the recent episodes lack Victor (well, except Topher/Victor, that was hilarious
DomaDoma
2009-12-14, 07:30 PM
For me, the bombshell with Topher and Adelle really made Alpha look pretty irrelevant by comparison. He still managed to bring the shocks, no doubt about it, but still - his plots aren't the Big Picture they were in season one, and it loses a bit of its edge that way.
Joran
2009-12-16, 11:32 AM
He's only braindead. I'm sure he'll be back eventually. Echo will be trying to find a way to bring him back for episodes to come, believe you me. :smalltongue:
Regarding Ballard:
Assuming they stay true to Epitaph One, we know Ballard is coming back. He was with Caroline when Caroline broke back into the Dollhouse post-Doll Apocalypse.
Any theories why Adelle turned over the tech to the Rossum Corporation? My current theory is that she knew that Rossum was going to eventually get the tech anyway; they had an unlimited amount of funds going to creating it. This way, she ingratiates herself to higher-ups, regains control of her house and thus can protect them, and taking Topher off of the R&D prevents further exploitable tech.
Or perhaps she truly decided to sacrifice her morals for her self-preservation and status. Any other ideas?
P.S. Interesting thing. Echo thinks of herself as a person and is self-aware. Would wiping her and replacing her with Caroline be akin to murder?
Wait, Idea
Adelle has a "Scientific Background". Is it possible she altered topher's plans slightly to introduce some fatal flaw into the design?
Mind you, all that requires is Rossam having somebody smarter than Adelle look at the designs and change it back.
Joran
2009-12-16, 01:44 PM
Wait, Idea
Adelle has a "Scientific Background". Is it possible she altered topher's plans slightly to introduce some fatal flaw into the design?
Mind you, all that requires is Rossam having somebody smarter than Adelle look at the designs and change it back.
Quite possible; interesting hypothesis, though we do know that eventually it does work. I'm assuming they stay true to Epitaph One.
Sneak
2009-12-16, 02:14 PM
Re: Adelle
Am I the only one who thinks that she has no master plan and just was willing compromise her morals to regain control of the dollhouse?
kpenguin
2009-12-16, 04:55 PM
Re: Adelle
Am I the only one who thinks that she has no master plan and just was willing compromise her morals to regain control of the dollhouse?
Re: Adelle
No. No you're not.
Joran
2009-12-16, 05:19 PM
Re: Adelle
Am I the only one who thinks that she has no master plan and just was willing compromise her morals to regain control of the dollhouse?
It'd make her a coward and I like her character too much to think of her as a coward. Self-delusion is fine by me.
Mauve Shirt
2009-12-17, 12:23 AM
Holy bees, just caught up. Joss really is squeezing his entire plot into what he has left. It's so much concentrated awesome.
Ballard'll most definitely be back. But Alpha also becomes a good guy, according to Epitaph One.
And I, too, like Adelle too much to think she doesn't have a sneaky plan. That won't work.
Am I the only one who thinks they're diverging from Epitaph One? It doesn't make sense for any creator, let alone a creator who enjoys fan speculation as much as Joss Whedon, to show his cards before he plays them, so to speak.
I do think that Ballard's imprint will affect Alpha, so that the next time we meet him he will help against Rossum. However, I think that also makes zero sense, as Alpha has fifty nine imprints including Ballard, so what are the odds that Ballard will be able to convince the other fifty eight to become good guys?
thorgrim29
2009-12-17, 01:04 PM
Maybe some of the 58 imprints are already good guys? And my bet is that they'll Make Ballard a doll of himself
Joran
2009-12-17, 03:48 PM
Am I the only one who thinks they're diverging from Epitaph One? It doesn't make sense for any creator, let alone a creator who enjoys fan speculation as much as Joss Whedon, to show his cards before he plays them, so to speak.
I do think that Ballard's imprint will affect Alpha, so that the next time we meet him he will help against Rossum. However, I think that also makes zero sense, as Alpha has fifty nine imprints including Ballard, so what are the odds that Ballard will be able to convince the other fifty eight to become good guys?
I don't think they're diverging from Epitaph One. They left quite a bit of ambiguity in how the zombie/doll apocalypse and the actions or dispositions of the various characters in the timeline. Sierra still may still be sent to the Dubai house; all that Epitaph One showed us was that Sierra and Victor get back together at some point.
Maybe some of the 58 imprints are already good guys? And my bet is that they'll Make Ballard a doll of himself
"I have many parts who think this is wrong, none that care, and six who just think it's funny." - Alpha (bolded the part that's relevant to my point)
While there may be good guys, they're passive. And they're all dominated by the main personality of Karl William Craft, who wasn't exactly known amongst friends and neighbors as a "fun guy".
I don't think they're diverging from Epitaph One. They left quite a bit of ambiguity in how the zombie/doll apocalypse and the actions or dispositions of the various characters in the timeline. Sierra still may still be sent to the Dubai house; all that Epitaph One showed us was that Sierra and Victor get back together at some point.
I was thinking of Adelle's 100% resistance to the idea that her Dollhouse be used for evil, shown in Epitaph One over someone's use of Victor. The Adelle we see now would probably allow it to happen, whether it's to gain the trust of Frank Lundy (I can't remember the character's name, but I can't imagine him as anything else) or because she's honestly become a bad guy, I don't know. The Adelle we saw in Epitaph One was the same Adelle we had throughout season one and for the first three episodes of season two. Somewhere along the line (episode four) she loses her morals, or at least begins to. Or appears to.
Of course, it is possible that she either reverts or I am wrong in my character analysis. I just don't think I am, or that she will.
EDIT- Looked over the Golden Globe Nominations. I'm saddened by the obvious fact that Enver Gjokaj wasn't nominated for a best supporting actor, because if anyone deserves it, he does. I've been gushing about John Lithgow being awesome throughout the Dexter season, and I'd be happy if he wins, but it sucks that Dollhouse is being passed over. Enver is a much better actor, especially in a show like Dollhouse which really allows him to show his enormous range and amazing ability to imitate other actors, or at least Eliza Dushku, Fran Kranz, and Reed Diamond. As a huge Dexter fan, I think that Dollhouse is 100% more deserving of these awards than Dexter. I just hate how "what's good" and "what's liked" overlap so little.
Sneak
2009-12-19, 02:02 AM
Two more good episodes.
So apparently you guys were right about Adelle. I still don't understand why she had to be such a bitch to accomplish what she wanted, though. Although it's possible she really did lose her morals, but then regained them after her little meeting where Echo forced her to pick a side.
Another thing that I didn't really understand—why does the hive mind thing fall apart so easily? After Victor/Tony and Echo escape, shouldn't they still be a part of the hive mind? Even if they're not really following orders, they still have the implant that makes them see what everyone else sees, right? Unless I missed something there, which is entirely possible.
So, what did they "take away" from Ballard? Who's Clyde 2.0? Who's the betrayer—Harding, or is that too obvious?
Also, it was nice to see Epitaph One return again. The whole idea of the attic being the Dollhouse mainframe was interesting. Guy-in-Tokyo's nightmare mind was the creepiest one, IMO. Something about the way he seemed so relaxed. And the "I have to try to enjoy myself" line was clever and sickening at the same time once his nightmare was revealed. Priya's nightmare was also pretty disturbing.
Oh, and I just remembered one more thing that confused me. How can Dominic and Echo travel between nightmares? And how did they get out of their own in the first place? If it's so easy to break out of the nightmares, doesn't that negate the effectiveness of the computer?
The Linker
2009-12-19, 06:00 AM
Holy friggin' crap, this is gettin' good.
Episode 10 seems like it should have been released on Halloween. :smalleek:
The scene of all the 'good guys' at the end, standing in the room, looking badass? That makes me incredibly sad it's going away. I'll miss it.
The scene where Anthony and Priya get shot in Echo's mind... even though, as soon as the first bullet hit, I knew that it was just a nightmare... seeing them die scared the crap out of me.
"Rigor mortis: The new viagra!" It's so weird to see humor like that in a scene that's supposed to be scary. But it was good anyway. :smallbiggrin:
Nice fourth wall break by Echo, after "What year is it?" "2010? I don't know how long we've been off the air." Again, :smallbiggrin:
Alteran
2009-12-19, 01:56 PM
Remember how Clyde said that the human brain is 20 times more powerful than the largest, most complex supercomputer? Do you also remember how he said that he was put in the attic in...1993? :smallbiggrin:
I imagine that he's had some contact with the outside world, it would be necessary for him to run all of his potential-outcome scenarios. But still, the implication is amusing.
Overall Verdict: Two very good episodes, again. Makes me even more sad that we're going to lose the show soon. :smallfrown:
kpenguin
2009-12-19, 02:05 PM
Well, that was quite a surprise to me. I really did think that Adelle had joined with Rossum up until the very end there.
I can't decide
If Adelle's switch from alcoholic Rossum Lackey to the intelligent British quasi-rebel we know and love was a masterful piece of writing or a haphazard ass pull of a plot twist.
thorgrim29
2009-12-19, 08:31 PM
A bit of both I think.... There was no way to know she didn't just have a breakdown unless you see Epitaph one. Also about that.... I don't see Topher going crazy in the near future, he seems a lot more stable then at the beginning of the season.
DomaDoma
2009-12-20, 09:53 AM
One of the flashbacks in Epitaph One implied that Topher had no idea Echo was a true entity - which made me think we were diverging - but it was briefly shown in the latest episode as a dream sequence. For what it's worth.
On the other hand, Lawrence does apparently know who Caroline is.
I'm inclined to think that Echo did force Adelle's hand, and that the technology Rossum has is, in fact, genuine.
Mauve Shirt
2009-12-23, 07:44 PM
Wow. Why does this show have to end?!?!?1 :smallfrown:
I'm so glad Adelle was just pretending to be evil! I really thought she was truly Rossum's lackey.
thorgrim29
2009-12-23, 09:07 PM
Wow. Why does this show have to end?!?!?1 :smallfrown:
Because it's on fox?
Wow. Why does this show have to end?!?!?1 :smallfrown:
I'm so glad Adelle was just pretending to be evil! I really thought she was truly Rossum's lackey.
I'll answer this seriously:
Due to the complexity and darkness of the pilot, FOX commissioned new episodes to begin the show with that weren't as complex or as dark. Or complex at all. Or dark at all. This caused the viewers to think this was another show that insulted their intelligence, as opposed to the brilliance of Flash Forward or V. So no one watched it.
By the time the show actually got good, it was too late, nobody was watching. Since the guys in charge of Fox still liked it, they gave it another season. Which has been getting even lower ratings, as apparently there are people out there who don't like Alan Tudyk. So FOX had to cancel it. What I'd do now, if I were them, to assuage the hurt feelings of all of the Whedon fans, is start on season 2 of Firefly, and air season 1 in the correct order.
The Linker
2009-12-29, 11:43 PM
Speaking of the unaired pilot, I just got to watch it on the swanky Dollhouse Season 1 DVD I got for Christmas. Not sure which one would have done better, given that I can't exactly which the unaired one through the eyes of a newbie.
While I think the current one is more exciting, the unaired one definitely showed a lacking in the status quo department. While the current first five episodes are all about Echo going on an engagement that goes wrong but gets fixed and everything's back to normal at the end, whislt Ballard's investigation creeps along in the background slowly... well...
In the unaired pilot, Ballard gets the tip from Lubov -- who has already been revealed to be a doll -- to go to the basement of that hotel. Instead of Russian thugs, he gets assaulted by Echo, imprinted to be a girl looking for her lost sister. She gains his trust, is taken to his apartment, tries to see what he knows about the Dollhouse, but Ballard catches on and puts a gun to her head. Echo takes the gun, and, because she's really an assassin pretending to be looking for her sister, shoots him twice in the gut. He survives, Echo tries to get to the hospital to finish him off, but before long the hit is called off and Langton brings her home.
Yeah. It moved a lot faster. I think that pace might have made the show a bit more successful.
There's also three episode commentaries. Ghost (The pilot), Man on the Street (ep. 6, AKA The First Good One :smalltongue:), and Epitaph One. I'm just watching the first one now, with Joss and Eliza.
"And, this motorcycle action sequence is... in no way pandering to Fox. Nope."
"And here we have the camera... panning in between two motorcycles, into a dance club with ladies with skimpy outfits... I've become Michael Bay, except I can't shoot as well."
Eliza, referring to the guy Echo dances with: "I love that guy. He's, he's just a doll."
Joss: "ShhhhhHHH! We were saving that for Season 3!"
Eliza: "Oh, man, my stepdad would say 'I love that shot! It's so unflattering!' Yeah, it's like, 'Thanks, Jim.'"
Joss: "Well, how many unflattering shots have there been of you, like, three, ever? It's an event, a television event. It's like, Tonight, Eliza looks like crap. Only on Dollhouse."
Eliza: "Ah, the co-ed showers..."
Joss: "The co-ed showers... I'm like some sort of genius-man."
I think the season 1 DVD will be the first and only DVD I'll ever buy. The commentaries sound like pure awesome, and I heard the deleted scenes are brilliant.
chiasaur11
2010-01-09, 12:42 AM
The new one tonight?
Um. Well. Wow.
Geeze.
Yes. This is a Joss Whedon show, isn't it?
Also
SON OF A *(*$(*ING $&*! And also $*%*(!
kpenguin
2010-01-09, 12:57 AM
Holy <bleep> on a <bleep> sandwich with <bleep> on top with a side order of <bleep>!
...
Nothing like a good mindscrew to end the week with.
Hands_Of_Blue
2010-01-09, 01:28 AM
The are only two words suitable for tonight's episode: Holy. Crap.
The Linker
2010-01-09, 04:44 AM
The HSQ.
It's-- it's uncontainable.
Nyaaaaah.
You know, halfway through the episode, I'm like, man, it's getting intense. This is the part where people start to die.
Yes. Yes it is.
Just realized: Boyd isn't going to have to adapt at all, is he?
I feel so bad for Topher. Easily my favorite character. Makes me wonder if Whiskey killed her because she was Boyd's sleeper or because Topher made her hate him.
The last episode is named Epitaph Two and Whedon stated he was going to use the cast from Epitaph One. Which, would mean Rossum wins before the apocalypse.
Or maybe the apocalypse is inevitable, but the Dollhouse cast makes it to Safe Haven?
DomaDoma
2010-01-09, 07:53 PM
What. What. What.
I'm actually showing the first season to family, we're going to be on episode three now, and it's already massively hard to reconcile. And yet, it definitely does explain a lot.
Christ on a freaking cracker.
I definitely need to watch the entire series over again for all the pieces to fall into place - and here I thought nothing beat a Harry Potter reread for extraneous details suddenly becoming impossible not to notice.
Holy freaking hell.
EDIT: But wait, what about Echo's entire growth plotline? I'm sure he would have done everything he could to nip it in the bud, not given her a ruddy keycard. Right?
...What just happened.
So the episode was pretty full of WHAMS. Caroline turning from an activist college student who happened to stumble onto Rossum before getting Dolled into an anti-Rossum action girl type. Or SleeperSaunders.
But really...Boyd...
I'm calling shenanigans here.
Though I knew the episode was going to be awesome as soon as Caroline, while looking at Bennet's file, said "Could probably kill me with her brain"
Zocelot
2010-01-09, 10:06 PM
EDIT: But wait, what about Echo's entire growth plotline? I'm sure he would have done everything he could to nip it in the bud, not given her a ruddy keycard. Right?
I think he was encouraging the growth. He plans on mindwiping everyone and needs to study the people who can't be mindwiped
I'd like to use a long chain of expletives to describe how I felt, but at this point in the thread I'm not being particularly original.
Sneak
2010-01-09, 10:22 PM
Holy frack. That's about it.
Oh, and:
RIP Bennett. :/
If only the rest of the show could've been as good as all the eps of season 2 starting with 4. It might've had a chance...
You know what? I bet the whole show was just Whedon fracking with the audience again. He planned to make a mediocre show, make sure it got cancelled, and then make it really effing awesome right before it ends. Just to screw with people.
And to teach Fox to never, ever, ever cancel a Whedon show before two full seasons. :smallamused:
thorgrim29
2010-01-11, 01:29 PM
What the hell.... I liked that they reused scenes from epitaph one, and that we finally have a reason for Topher going nuts. But I call shenanigans/asspull on terrorist Caroline. It fits nothing we know about the character, and retcons almost an entire episode... Granted, it's a very cool asspull, but no way that was where they were going with the character in season one.
Sneak
2010-01-11, 02:24 PM
I think they were just trying to cover for the fact that everyone thought Caroline was an obnoxious self-righteous womanchild even after she was intentionally designed to be a completely sympathetic character.
So then they just said, "Eh, screw it," and turned her into, well, a terrorist.
What the hell.... I liked that they reused scenes from epitaph one, and that we finally have a reason for Topher going nuts. But I call shenanigans/asspull on terrorist Caroline. It fits nothing we know about the character, and retcons almost an entire episode... Granted, it's a very cool asspull, but no way that was where they were going with the character in season one.
It fits absolutely everything we know about the character.
Somebody built a pretty good timeline based on what we know about her in a different forum. I'll replicate it from memory
3 years before show begins (educated guess, she has about 50 personalities, assuming she gets a personality every week it means she's been in the Dollhouse for a year when the show starts, as I think Adelle mentions they've been playing a game of cat and mouse for two years), she's finished four years of college (as seen in "Echoes"), and is an environmentalist hippie. She breaks into Rossum, where she finds out Rossum is conducting experiments on fetuses, and her boyfriend gets shot, and dies on the grass outside. She's taken to a hospital, where Adelle is about to talk to her. She overhears what Adelle says (Which I don't remember exactly, only that it pertains to her and is somewhat malicious in a British sort of way), and escapes through the window. She spends the next year and a half finding more and more about Rossum (Leaving behind a trail of bodies, by the way, which could make her consider herself a terrorist), until she can break in and steal data about herself and Bennet, who she has learned is working for them and could possibly be of use. She takes three months to get to know Bennet, and have her trust her ("It's time for your treatment", heh, it was hair all along), when Bennet finds out that she's been using her for data. She goes in, finds secret room, finally gets caught by Adelle and Laurence, who send her to Boyd, who sends her right back to Adelle, and Boyd makes himself her handler via awesome machinations.
I think it works
Guessing time now: Boyd's purpose in bringing her to the Dollhouse is to help stop the catastrophe he's seen. Nobody's evaded Rossum for so long, and he slowly starts engineering her so that she'd be more receptive to a composite event. Reading recaps of previous episodes on Television Without Pity, you notice there are many gaps, which he may very well have been the cause of. Whether this was planned from the start or not I don't know, but I think Boyd will be a pretty good way to fill in those gaps, although Dominic does a fair share of gap filling himself, what with his dislike of Echo and general "being a mole for the NSA".
EDIT - I also didn't like the use of Epitaph One scene, although it was one of those that wasn't negated.
EDIT 2 - I hate the spoiler tags in this forum, and when the thread title clearly states that they'll be there, I don't know why put them. I did, anyway, but out of a deep sense of offendedness.
Sneak
2010-01-11, 04:21 PM
...spoiler tags, guys. Think of the children.
Personally, I liked them throwing in the Epitaph One scene, though.
Mauve Shirt
2010-01-12, 10:02 PM
WHAT. That ending took everything I liked about Boyd and made it a HUGE FREAKING LIE. That feels like such an asspull. Seems to me that Joss is just doing ****e for the shock value now.
Also, I hate Caroline, and am pleased that Sue Echo also does.
Hands_Of_Blue
2010-01-13, 12:20 AM
and that we finally have a reason for Topher going nuts.
Causing the apocolypse wasn't a good enough reason to go nuts?
The Linker
2010-01-13, 02:06 AM
WHAT. That ending took everything I liked about **** and made it a HUGE FREAKING LIE. That feels like such an asspull. Seems to me that Joss is just doing ****e for the shock value now.
Spoiler tags have apparently gone extinct in this thread of ours. :smalltongue:
Anyway, I just watched that and the previous episode again, being bored last night as I was. There's a lot just seems to not make sense given this new revelation.
The things Boyd says to her in that very episode just don't sound like the things he would say if he was really using her. But more importantly, the very last thing we see him do in the present is hold Echo's hand, saying "Just hang in there." He knows she's getting Caroline's memories, right? He must know she's going to wake up and know who he is. Yet he still seems to care for her.
I just think there's something left. Maybe he's trying to take down his own company, but can't do it from his position (perhaps because he'll just get overthrown by someone else if he just says "Stop everything and go get arrested, please and thanks.") Maybe he's already been overthrown! Not likely, granted, but...
Anyway. Another thing I'm wondering about is Whiskey/Saunders. I don't think she's really a sleeper... my theory is that she just hates Topher so very much that she wanted to inflict horrible emotional pain on him by killing the woman he loves and splattering her brains all over him.
Man, I can't wait for next week's episode.
That feels like such an asspull. Seems to me that Joss is just doing ****e for the shock value now.
Two comments:
A. An asspull usually makes no sense with what has happened. This explains quite a bit, assuming he gets a normal motivation. Also, Joss had the show planned out for quite a bit, so this was no asspull.
B. Joss is always doing stuff just for the shock value. But this, in my opinion, really wasn't it.
C. THAT was the thing he did for shock value? Not the completely unnecessary "Ballard no longer loves Echo" thing? When they could have easily just removed what he felt for Mellie?
Mauve Shirt
2010-01-13, 09:42 AM
C. THAT was the thing he did for shock value? Not the completely unnecessary "Ballard no longer loves Echo" thing? When they could have easily just removed what he felt for Mellie?
The Paul/Echo thing annoyed me, so that was a relief. :P
Sneak
2010-01-13, 10:07 AM
Yeah, I don't think that was an ass pull or done for shock value.
And I don't think the Echo/Ballard thing was done for shock value either. If it was, it failed, because it wasn't that shocking to me.
The most shocking thing, IMO, was the death. I really was not expecting that, especially considering when it happened. I know Joss likes to kill his characters quickly, but man...
Connington
2010-01-13, 10:09 AM
I think the reason they took Echo out instead of Mellie had to do with the amount of mental real estate he had devoted to each of them. I mean, he was obsessed with Echo even while he was still with Mellie.
Sneak
2010-01-13, 10:12 AM
I think Topher also mentioned something about how those feelings were the newest/freshest, which somehow made it easier.
Spoiler tags have apparently gone extinct in this thread of ours. :smalltongue:
Anyway, I just watched that and the previous episode again, being bored last night as I was. There's a lot just seems to not make sense given this new revelation.
The things Boyd says to her in that very episode just don't sound like the things he would say if he was really using her. But more importantly, the very last thing we see him do in the present is hold Echo's hand, saying "Just hang in there." He knows she's getting Caroline's memories, right? He must know she's going to wake up and know who he is. Yet he still seems to care for her.
I just think there's something left. Maybe he's trying to take down his own company, but can't do it from his position (perhaps because he'll just get overthrown by someone else if he just says "Stop everything and go get arrested, please and thanks.") Maybe he's already been overthrown! Not likely, granted, but...
Anyway. Another thing I'm wondering about is Whiskey/Saunders. I don't think she's really a sleeper... my theory is that she just hates Topher so very much that she wanted to inflict horrible emotional pain on him by killing the woman he loves and splattering her brains all over him.
Man, I can't wait for next week's episode.
Whisaunder's behavior didn't look like a Sleeper. Before there was always a trigger phrase used to switch them to "Kill Kill Kill". There was no such trigger for Whisaunders.
Also, she waited to confirm that bennet could restore Echo. She was trying to protect Boyd,.
chiasaur11
2010-01-16, 12:50 AM
Ah. Geeze. Less twisty, still nasty.
And we know it will all come to nothing. Still, way to outrun an explosion.
Wonder how Epitaph 2 will turn out.
Amazing episode. Amazing, amazing episode with many less twists than I thought and one big logic problem:
Carl William Craft has also shown an ability to resist imprints, as seen in "A Love Supreme". It's been heavily implied that you get that ability from multiple imprints.
So why is Caroline so special, again?
Even though she was resisting them even before the composite event, but still...
Sneak
2010-01-16, 02:43 PM
Amazing episode. Amazing, amazing episode with many less twists than I thought and one big logic problem:
Carl William Craft has also shown an ability to resist imprints, as seen in "A Love Supreme". It's been heavily implied that you get that ability from multiple imprints.
So why is Caroline so special, again?
Even though she was resisting them even before the composite event, but still...
Maybe they just couldn't capture Alpha to harvest his spinal fluid. He's a tricky lil bugger.
Anyway, I thought it was a very good episode, although not quite as good as the last two.
It's interesting how Echo and co. could have actually prevented the worst of the thoughtpocalypse by harvesting Echo's spinal fluid like Boyd wanted to and creating a vaccine. I'm actually not sure why they didn't do that. Boyd's plan actually made sense, even though he was pretty clearly unhinged and I got the feeling that he just wanted to vaccinate those in his "family" and not the general public.
I guess they thought that destroying Topher's tech would be enough, but that seems kind of silly and naive to me—if Rossum's got any brains and all, they would just keep a backup of the schematics somewhere safe, outside of the office building. Which it seems like they did.
Platinum_Mongoose
2010-01-16, 05:56 PM
Well, that was easily the most satisfying elimination of a villain I've ever seen. Ever.
Zocelot
2010-01-16, 09:30 PM
I didn't like the episode very much. It seemed too predictable, and although Boyd's plan made a lot more sense than the others', it was automatically assumed to be bad.
Well, that was easily the most satisfying elimination of a villain I've ever seen. Ever.
Cause he totally didn't have 20 other personalities lying around.
I think the Echofluid wasn't what they needed to create the vaccine, it was what they needed to produce it, which means that their ability to vaccinate people may be limited by the amount of spinal fluid they have available. Boyd's plan was "The world is going to hell, I'll save the fifty or so people I like and help the world go to the hell of my choice".
Sneak
2010-01-16, 11:34 PM
I think the Echofluid wasn't what they needed to create the vaccine, it was what they needed to produce it, which means that their ability to vaccinate people may be limited by the amount of spinal fluid they have available. Boyd's plan was "The world is going to hell, I'll save the fifty or so people I like and help the world go to the hell of my choice".
According to the Wikipedia article on cerebrospinal fluids:
The CSF is produced at a rate of 500 ml/day. Since the brain can contain only from 135 to 150 ml, large amounts are drained primarily into the blood through arachnoid granulations in the superior sagittal sinus. Thus the CSF turns over about 3.7 times a day. This continuous flow into the venous system dilutes the concentration of larger, lipoinsoluble molecules penetrating the brain and CSF.
Since it's continually produced, it seems like they could theoretically harvest as much brain goo from Echo as they need.
And yes, I get that Boyd's plan wasn't to create a universal vaccine but just to save his "family," but I feel like his plan could have been implemented successfully on a much larger scale, thus saving humanity from the thoughtpocalypse. Or brainpocalypse?
According to the Wikipedia article on cerebrospinal fluids:
The CSF is produced at a rate of 500 ml/day. Since the brain can contain only from 135 to 150 ml, large amounts are drained primarily into the blood through arachnoid granulations in the superior sagittal sinus. Thus the CSF turns over about 3.7 times a day. This continuous flow into the venous system dilutes the concentration of larger, lipoinsoluble molecules penetrating the brain and CSF.
Since it's continually produced, it seems like they could theoretically harvest as much brain goo from Echo as they need.
And yes, I get that Boyd's plan wasn't to create a universal vaccine but just to save his "family," but I feel like his plan could have been implemented successfully on a much larger scale, thus saving humanity from the thoughtpocalypse. Or brainpocalypse?
We don't know how much fluid was needed to create a dose of vaccine. Also, Boyd's plan involved them causing a very specific brainpocolypse by using the Imprint-guns to take over the world, essentially causing the Brainpoocolypse.
zyphyr
2010-01-16, 11:55 PM
And yes, I get that Boyd's plan wasn't to create a universal vaccine but just to save his "family," but I feel like his plan could have been implemented successfully on a much larger scale, thus saving humanity from the thoughtpocalypse. Or brainpocalypse?
Without a means to produce it that doesn't involve draining Echo, any such plan is going to be on an extremely limited scale.
Even if it only takes 1/10 of a mL and they really could drain all of the 500mL her body produces each day, that is 5000 doses per day.
150k/month
The US Census Bureau estimates the population of the US at a little over 308 million. It would take 2053 months just to produce enough for just the US. 171 Years.
And that isn't even starting to help the rest of humanity.
No, this plan could never have been more than saving a hand picked minority.
Sneak
2010-01-16, 11:57 PM
Okay, maybe that's true...but still, why not try to save as many people as possible? I just don't really see the downside—yes, it's probably painful for Echo, but anesthetic could take care of that.
Okay, maybe that's true...but still, why not try to save as many people as possible? I just don't really see the downside—yes, it's probably painful for Echo, but anesthetic could take care of that.
It was mainly that Boyd's plan, based on the assumption that the Brainpocolypse was inevitable, was to cause it intentionally, saving a few people. Team Echo wants to prevent the Brainpocolypse from occurring in the first place.
Here, think about it like this, they are on a ship in a storm, Boyd says "We can fit a few people into a lifeboat, and they'll survive". Somebody else points out that without everybody helping, the Ship will certainly sink, Boyd says "Well it's going to sink anyway, we might as well save what people we can, anything else is merely stalling for time". Team Echo, having read from the James T Kirk school of problem solving says "We can stop the ship from sinking in the first place".
Now, we know they failed, the Brainpocolypse occurred, the ship sank, but without that hindsight, stopping Boyd's plan seems reasonable. It's also a nice heroic thing to do, and had the show ended with them blowing up Rossum there would probably have been very few questions as to if they had done the right thing (This assumes no Epitaph One of course).
Edit: Also, Dead Bennet, Dead Mellie/November, the Brainpocolypse happens anyway... why does Joss hate his audience.
nosignal
2010-01-17, 02:09 AM
I'm sure if Team Echo had more time :smallwink:, they would have found a way to prevent the brainpocalypse.
Also, the Victopher cameo was easily the best part of that episode.
kpenguin
2010-01-17, 02:14 AM
Edit: Also, Dead Bennet, Dead Mellie/November, the Brainpocolypse happens anyway... why does Joss hate his audience.
Not to mention Boyd, one of the most likable characters in the series, being a evil villain all along.
Also, I think Thoughtpocalypse sounds better than Brainpaclypse
The Linker
2010-01-17, 04:21 AM
Finally got a chance to watch it.
That was the most chilling 'I try to be my best' ever. I actually whimpered, and I actually felt sorry for him -- particularly the gentle, trusting smile he gave her as she walked out the door. :smallfrown:
It did feel a bit rushed at some points, though. It seemed the whole 'turning around a corner and THERE'S AN ENEMY' and 'it looks bad but OH SNAP THERE'S SOMEONE' tropes were used a bit frequently. And the transition from exploding hallway to "Hey guys! I'm fine!" was, ew. But hey, rushing is what happens when you know you're permanently going off the air in one episode. :smalltongue:
magellan
2010-01-17, 06:35 AM
Gotta say another series finale i was rather dissapointed with.
Especially a let down since i rather enjoyed the episodes running up to it.
But I guess i should have seen it coming starting with the "And the villain is:"-"wait, were we supposed to put echos name in the hat too? Ah well too late"
As for the "It wasn't since Mr W wouldnt do that": I am sorry, i love buffy like the next nerd, but plotting isn't whedons strong side, and he has quite a track record of asspulls. Or can anybody explain to me such simple a matter as what triggers the activation of the next slayer, and what doesnt?
The Linker
2010-01-17, 06:53 AM
Well... there IS still one more episode. And even though it's another 'in the future' bit, the episode summary seems to indicate we'll be seeing a lot more closure in regards to what'll happen to the main cast ten years from that day.
Also, I think Thoughtpocalypse sounds better than Brainpaclypse
This invalidates everything you have said to this point.
Brainpocalypse is much better than Thoughtpocalypse will ever be.
EDIT- The new episode will have Alpha. Hopefully still as a sociopath, but with my heterosexual-man-crush on Alan Tudyk, I'll be perfectly happy even if he's a vegetable.
And I require at least one more time of Enver being another actor. My not-so-heterosexual-man-crush on him demands it.
Sneak
2010-01-17, 09:58 AM
It was mainly that Boyd's plan, based on the assumption that the Brainpocolypse was inevitable, was to cause it intentionally, saving a few people. Team Echo wants to prevent the Brainpocolypse from occurring in the first place.
Here, think about it like this, they are on a ship in a storm, Boyd says "We can fit a few people into a lifeboat, and they'll survive". Somebody else points out that without everybody helping, the Ship will certainly sink, Boyd says "Well it's going to sink anyway, we might as well save what people we can, anything else is merely stalling for time". Team Echo, having read from the James T Kirk school of problem solving says "We can stop the ship from sinking in the first place".
Now, we know they failed, the Brainpocolypse occurred, the ship sank, but without that hindsight, stopping Boyd's plan seems reasonable. It's also a nice heroic thing to do, and had the show ended with them blowing up Rossum there would probably have been very few questions as to if they had done the right thing (This assumes no Epitaph One of course).
I understand that, but it seems silly to me that they would expect blowing up Rossum to stop the thoughtpocalypse. As I think Boyd says, the tech can't be uninvented. Rossum HQ knows it's possible, and more importantly, they know Topher can do it. Even if they DON'T have more copies or schematics stashed somewhere else (which, given Rossum's scope and resources, it seems like a very likely possibility that they do), they could just find Topher and torture him until he builds it for them again.
*shrug* I thought it was stupid. Of course, it does fit in with the Caroline we all know and don't really love: "They're doing something bad! What do we do? ...BLOW UP A BUILDING!"
I understand that, but it seems silly to me that they would expect blowing up Rossum to stop the thoughtpocalypse. As I think Boyd says, the tech can't be uninvented. Rossum HQ knows it's possible, and more importantly, they know Topher can do it. Even if they DON'T have more copies or schematics stashed somewhere else (which, given Rossum's scope and resources, it seems like a very likely possibility that they do), they could just find Topher and torture him until he builds it for them again.
*shrug* I thought it was stupid. Of course, it does fit in with the Caroline we all know and don't really love: "They're doing something bad! What do we do? ...BLOW UP A BUILDING!"
All very true, but I can think of justifications for the characters doing this. They are disgusted by what Rossum is doing, by it's plans for the future. In that situation "Blow up Rossum" seems like a perfectly reasonable solution,
Of course, we don't know what happens after that, they could say "Yay, we did eet" go get some ice cream, and wake up in the thoughtpocolypse. Or they could have gotten together and said "Alright, Rossum is going to re-assemble itself, we've got alot of work to do", and started going around the world trying to stop the brainpocolypse, and just not done it fast enough.
thorgrim29
2010-01-17, 01:11 PM
The episode as a whole was a bit disappointing, not bad, just not as good as it could have been. Tough "I love you guys, you're my family" bit was awesome.
The episode as a whole was a bit disappointing, not bad, just not as good as it could have been. Tough "I love you guys, you're my family" bit was awesome.
These are my thoughts, after a rewatch with a friend. It had some amazing parts, and some oh-god-what-am-I-watching-change-back-to-Dollhouse parts.
The Linker
2010-01-23, 06:12 AM
Watching the commentary of Man on the Street...
Spoiler'd for allusions to latest episodes.
Joss describes Boyd as the 'moral center' of the entire show.
Bull freakin' crap, Joss. :smallamused:
One starts to wonder just how long he had that planned... Was it from the beginning? That would have meant that if it ended with just one season, Boyd's secret would have never gotten out. That would just kill me, were I in Joss' shoes. And, you know, that had happened.
Edit: "Incidentally, casting those people, the [non-central] actives was extraordinarily difficult, [because] central casting sent us, I'm not going to lie, a bunch of porn stars." :smalleek:
Edit edit: He says that Miracle's (AKA November, AKA Mellie), um, romantic scene with Tamoh (AKA Ballard, AKA Helo. Not that that has anything to do with anything.) was one of her first scenes, one of her first jobs, because it was so out of order. He then says "and I gotta give her props for being such a pro. Uh, wow! That came out wrong!"
magellan
2010-01-23, 09:40 AM
I'd say he had this planned since about episode 9 or 10 of season 2.
It was planned out when they were planning the second season. They didn't know it at Man On The Street, or Epitaph One for that matter, but they knew it when they were filming season 2, from the start.
Tim Minear has an interview somewhere (http://www.whedon.info/Tim-Minear-Dollhouse-Tv-Series,34837.html) where he talks about episode 11.
Now that I've had some time to simmer down from the whole "woo boyd and Envertopher's back" of episode 12, I realize how big a disappointment that episode was.
Epitaph Two has to be awesome, or I'm going to complain about it. ON THE INTERNET!
DomaDoma
2010-01-23, 10:50 PM
I thought it was planned from at least episode seven of season one, where Caroline mentions a "big black guy" to Adelle. Just goes to show - writers can spin irrelevancies into massive threads, hey?
It was planned out when they were planning the second season. They didn't know it at Man On The Street, or Epitaph One for that matter, but they knew it when they were filming season 2, from the start.
Tim Minear has an interview somewhere (http://www.whedon.info/Tim-Minear-Dollhouse-Tv-Series,34837.html) where he talks about episode 11.
Now that I've had some time to simmer down from the whole "woo boyd and Envertopher's back" of episode 12, I realize how big a disappointment that episode was.
Epitaph Two has to be awesome, or I'm going to complain about it. ON THE INTERNET!
A complaint on the internet? It must be serious!
magellan
2010-01-29, 09:34 AM
A complaint on the internet? It must be serious!
I hope whedon and minear have read this thread and pita will not have to resort to such drastic measures...
I hope whedon and minear have read this thread and pita will not have to resort to such drastic measures...
Somebody is (http://emailsfromcrazypeople.com/2010/01/27/crazy-emails-homeless-dollhouse/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+EFCP+(Emails+From+Crazy+Peopl e)) complaining for me. (http://toresimonsen.wordpress.com/)
I love the internet.
I hope whedon and minear have read this thread and pita will not have to resort to such drastic measures...
Meanwhile in Joss Whedon's Omnious Mansion.
Joss: Well, Dollhouse wasn't the best job I've done. Ah well, it's over now. Steve, what do you think about Epitaph Two?
Steve: It's kind of Meh. It seems like you're just going through the motions.
Joss: Well I'm kind of bummed out on Dollhouse, I figure I'll just make somthing, fans will buy it no matter what, and we'll move onto my next exciting project.
Steve: Is that the one where a teenager discovers she can channel the spirit of a 16th' century badass whose skills she uses to kick ass while hunting down an ancient consiparacy?
Joss: No, it's the one where a Teenager learns she's the result of a secret government genetic modification program and uses the asskicking skills it gives her to beat up evil people.
Steve: Oh...
Suddenly, Bob, Joss-Whedon's Computer Guy bursts in.
Bob: JOSS, We've got a problem. Somebody is threatening to complain if Epitaph Two isn't awesome!
Joss: Oh, who cares.
Bob: He's going to complain...ON THE INTERNET!
Joss: WHAT, NO! Steve, call the writing staff and production crews. We need to make this the best episode ever! We'll start over from the beginning and get rid of the dance number.
I imagined BRC's post as a musical.
It made it twice as awesome.
But Tim Minear's first name is Tim. Who is this Steve you refer to?
I imagined BRC's post as a musical.
It made it twice as awesome.
But Tim Minear's first name is Tim. Who is this Steve you refer to?
Steve is Joss Whedon's imaginary friend who reads over his scripts and watches his stuff in order to provide feedback before it airs.
Steve's comments were responsible for, among other things, Adam Baldwin growing a beard to play Jayne, and having Wash play with dinosaurs.
This invalidates everything you have said to this point.
Brainpocalypse is much better than Thoughtpocalypse will ever be.
Nuh-uh. Hippocampocalypse. :smallcool:
Nuh-uh. Hippocampocalypse. :smallcool:
Oh my god - you're a genius.
Thank you.
Ooh, it's over and stuff. Lots of implied story that we missed out on. The tech head people weren't really premised or explained, which I would have liked to know more about. It's not very often you see a cyber punk style apocalypse in fiction.
Ballard ate it, and Echo put him in here head. Though the imprint was about a decade old so everything that happened after alpha fried him has been lost.
Also, poor Topher...
Zocelot
2010-01-29, 10:23 PM
I'm a bit disappointed that Tudyk didn't have much of a role, or much screen time at all. I was hoping he'd actually contribute to the plot.
Also, I'm going to assume that Echo also imprinted Topher, because it makes sense that she would, and I'm not sure I can bear losing him.
The Linker
2010-01-30, 05:53 AM
Ballard ate it, and Echo put him in here head.
...
I... may have cried at that part. But because I am a manly, manly person, I most certainly did not and that was merely a rumor I just made up for no reasI AM A MANLY PERSON.
Nuh-uh. Hippocampocalypse. :smallcool:
Oh my god - you're a genius.
Thank you.
Thank you. I try to be my best.
chiasaur11
2010-01-30, 01:57 PM
Was I the only one mildly suprised that
Zone made it out alive?
That was an odd kind of nice, really.
magellan
2010-01-30, 03:49 PM
Oh boy.
Seriously?
Thats the big finale?
Topher builds a reset button?
One that 'splodes and has extra timer and remote control resistance?
And the USB stick people stand around Topher, guns aimed at him, explaining in a way that would make a bond villain go "Quit babbling and do it!" that they are going to kill him. Really soonish, as soon as that other guy is in here too. Because, you know, you need an audience for a swift kill that is 'sposed to ensure your existance and stuff. Is everybody here yet and sees how we are totally aiming our guns at Topher? Anybody got any questions? No? So we can shoot him now?
I actually groaned while i was watching this, starting when Topher mentioned that he can make a reset button.
I think, pita, you will have to.
Epitaph 2 was a good episode. It did what needed to be done. It ended the series in a nice, and very definite way. It provides the series with some closure without pretending that things are completely back to normal. The characters are not done with their lives, they still have problems to face, but this section of the story has ended, so we'll leave them too it.
It also did a good job of showing how people reacted to the Hippocampocolypse. You had the Neuropolians living high and mighty, indulging their desires, acting as kings of the scrap heap. You had the Safe Havenites, living simple, tech free lives, and you had Team Victor, embracing the Tech in any way they could.
I didn't even mind Topher's death. Yes it could easily have been avoided, but it was nice and symbolic. Topher was a genius concerning the printing tech, and nothing else. He had no place in a world without it, and he died redeeming himself (He was the one that made the "Imprint Anybody" tech).
Now, there were some things I wished the episode had done differently.
1. Alpha. As nice as it was to have GoodAlpha, I feel like we missed quite a lot. Most of the other characters seemed like natural outgrowths of their previous selves, including Tophers insanity. You could understand, more or less, how they got from point A to B, but Alpha went from a sociopath serial killer who loved carving up people's faces, to a sane, nice guy. There was no indication of that happening earlier, it just came out of the blue "Oh hey, Alphas good now".
2. Alpha again. So if you stay in the Dollhouse you don't get restored. Old Sociopath alpha hated his origional self, his first act was to destroy it. New Alpha obviously hated his origional self even more, since he is now a nice guy and original alpha (Forget his name) was an insane murderer. And yet, instead of staying in the Dollhouse and remaining a benevolent supergenius, he decides to go out into the world to ensure that, while people are trying to rebuild the shattered wrecks of society, they don't run out of psychopaths.
magellan
2010-01-31, 05:17 AM
Whedon draws a piece of paper out of a hat: "And the guy who gets to do the meaningless heroic sacrifice is .... topher!"
Topher :"Aww man."
Adele:"Topher, you don't need to do this"
Topher:"Weren't you watching? I got the short straw!"
Adele:"Ok, why does this thing have to explode in the first place?"
Topher:"To totally blow out the windows on the top floor, or to totally engulf the whole planet without even bending a blade of grass while rolling up hills, one of those two, cant remember which"
Adele: "Ok, that can't be helped then. How about you get some WLan or radio or something to switch it on remotely"
Topher: "Oh, just because we can send personalities into peoples heads through thin air, doesnt mean we have the technology to send a on/off signal over a distance of several meters!"
Adele: "How about attaching the switch to a cable?"
Topher: "Hello! Ever heard of signal degration! We are talking about 5 meters at the least!"
Adele: "That tech stuff is very complicated, isnt it? Well ok: how about you switch it on and instead of staring at fotographs you just dash for the stairs real quick? Maybe hook it up to an alarm clock?"
Topher: "But then we wouldn't get to have a heroic sacrifice."
Adele: "So we want to have one of those, no matter how contrived, and therefore lacking any semblance of meaning?"
Topher: "I guess"
The Linker
2010-01-31, 05:33 AM
I kinda got the feeling Topher wanted to die? He was wracked with guilt, and, well, insane. I imagine that he felt if he died reversing his previous tech, there's no possible way he could ever come to create something even worse. Being dead.
DomaDoma
2010-01-31, 08:26 AM
Okay, yeah, I'm assuming that whole extremely missing character arc would have made it to the second half of season two, had it existed; as we said at the time, there was a bare seed in "A Love Supreme".
Wait, so Echo only stayed Echo because she stayed in the Dollhouse? Here I was explaining the Alpha thing with the idea that he clearly has the Spinal Fluid O' Doom, even though Boyd wasn't aware of it in time - explaining his undue interest in the case before it was clear he was alive. But yeah, I guess that's a moot point if you're right, BRC. Grr...
I'm feeling mildly disappointed, but I know I wouldn't be, for the most part, if we'd had more time to fill in the blanks.
magellan
2010-01-31, 08:38 AM
I kinda got the feeling Topher wanted to die? He was wracked with guilt, and, well, insane. I imagine that he felt if he died reversing his previous tech, there's no possible way he could ever come to create something even worse. Being dead.
If you want that don't make it conviniently incidentaly contrived. Let him press his little button, and then off himself as a meaningfull action.
Of course, the only way to salvage this episode would have been this:
First production meeting of epitah 2:
- so, what are we going to do?
+ how about we start where we left of with 1?
- sounds good, i like that
+ and then topher builds a reset button
- Nahhh, lets rather not
What I liked about this episode: Felicia Day, plus her lesbian joke. Immature, but I liked it. Alan Tudyk's Schizophrenia line. Fran Kranz revealing yet again that he's just as good at being dramatic as he is at comedy (hee, "brown mines") Eliza Dushku's acting (She was excellent in this episode. She's a one track actress, but when she's on that track, she's great), Enver Gjokaj and Dichen Lachman (two brilliant actors, I have no idea where Joss found them. They were both at the top of their dramatic form in this episode, although Gjokaj wasn't able to utilize his divine skills of mimicking). Adair Tishler. Maurissa Tancharoen.
What I didn't like:
Ballard's death didn't quite strike a chord. Him and Echo at the end was amazingly (and it felt like it was done unintentionally) creepy. "I love you so you're in my mind forever" what the FRAK I expect that from Twilight not from Joss. It felt like the writers didn't realize that in season one he was a stalker, and in season 2 he betrayed his principles completely in order to remain a stalker. Also, he stopped loving Echo and moved on to a person custom designed for him. The entire relationship oozed creepy, and I was hoping someone would figure it out. Also, Sierra and Victor's relationship was a little bit like that. The only wholesome relationship I saw in the show was the motherly affection Adelle has for Topher. Topher's lunacy was too much like River. The Summer Glau bit felt forced, and I have a deep crush on Summer Glau that will forgive her being in Mammoth. Alan Tudyk was amazing, but he's much better as evil Alpha than good. He could have been an evil savior, if they had decided to keep him as a savior. Him being good was poorly done, and a bit of an Arse pull. And they could've done without him, and not work my hopes up like that. Olivia Williams was disappointing. Alien Guy didn't show up. The fact that the preview completely spoiled the episode. The lack of Harry Lennix, Reed Diamond, or Amy Acker. The fact that both of the finales that we had are incredibly unsatisfying. The slang felt a little bit offensive: I understand "Dumbshows" as far as the people on the street calling dolls, but I figure Echo would call them dolls because she knew the original term. I think they should have made it more clear that Topher was committing suicide, possibly by having Adelle suggest a timer, and having him say no, he has to do it.
I'd also like to say a complaint I had about The Attic. The Attic was absolutely terrifying when Topher told Boyd (or was it Ivy?) what it was: The feeling you have when a word is at the tip of your tongue, but for every thought you ever have. Reliving your worst nightmare is absolutely tame compared to that. Especially once you've overcome your fear (like Echo did, with quite a bit of ease) and you get to travel around people's nightmares, or just travel around your subconscious.
My conclusions:
This show had an amazing run, and a few incredibly disappointing episodes (1-5 and 10 of S1, 2 and 12-13 of S2, although all of those had their moments.). I'm thinking I'd rather remember the "A Love Supreme"s and "Echoes"s over the "Hollow Man"s and "Ghost"s. Its strong sides were the acting of most of the ensemble, the writing, and general awesomeness of plots with most episodes. Its weakness was the one I hate seeing in TV: Plot holes up the wazoo. Other than The Wire (too high quality) and Lost (any plot hole can be labeled "attempts to confuse the audience" with ease), is there a show without plot holes?
The Linker
2010-01-31, 05:54 PM
We were told that Alpha was a good guy back in Epitaph One -- at least, sort of. Echo mentions that no one at Safe Haven has been wiped, "thanks to Alpha." Sure, this could be interpreted as "we stole his tech and protected ourselves with it," but the way she said it made me think she considered him an ally.
Even without that, it didn't feel like an arse-pull to me. Echo mentions that he 'evolved'. Just like what happened to Echo -- they both gained control of their many personalities and merged them into one coherent and sane being. The difference lies in that Echo transitioned to that from more of a confused-doll-state, whereas Alpha had to do it from crazy-slasher mode, struggling against the composite event that slammed all those personalities into him at once before he was ready. When your original serial killer-type personality is surfacing and you just want to cut people up, that's not a good time to suddenly get dozens of personalities shunted in to you. :smalltongue:
I was also disappointed by the lack of closure on Dominic and his story, but other than that I really liked the episode. I loved Ballard's merge into Echo. And that made me think -- what if Alpha had already been turning good back when he burst into the Dollhouse and messed with Ballard's mind? If he hadn't done that, he wouldn't have been able to let Echo see him again after his death. Sure, maybe this is going into epileptic trees territory, but it all did work out rather nicely, didn't it? :smalltongue:
chiasaur11
2010-01-31, 06:59 PM
So, while we're here, anyone up for some gambling?
Enver Gjokaj's going to be playing a young version of the Robert De Niro character in an upcoming crime film. Anyone care to take up a bet the phrase "The one bright spot is actor Enver Gjokaj, who manages to imitate De Niro's signature style with amazing accuracy. If he has any talents beyond that, I can see him going places." or a variant will appear in a review linked on rotten tomatoes?
Sneak
2010-01-31, 07:32 PM
I thought it was kind of disappointing.
I agree with everyone that after all that the characters have been through, it was kind of disappointing that they were able to hit the magical reset button so easily. It didn't seem to take Topher very long, either—why couldn't they have done it earlier?
If they still had to do that, I think they should have made it so that everyone got reset to their original personalities—no hiding in the dollhouse. Which would have forced Echo to sacrifice the identity that she worked so hard to create in order to save the rest of the world.
I also agree that it made no sense for Alpha to leave the dollhouse and become a serial killer again. First of all, I'm not sure I completely buy his face heel turn in the first place—maybe if they emphasized the idea that it was Ballard's imprint that caused this, it would have been a bit better—but even accepting this fact, why would he, as a supposedly good guy, want to go back to being psycho? And like others have said, this was kind of a waste of a Tudyk guest starring spot—he didn't do anything.
Also, Victor's techhead guys were a bit over the top for me. I mean, come on, black leather with giant shoulderpads? Really?
And while it was kind of sweet/creepy, I totally don't buy that the one personality of Ballard in Echo would be able to have a conversation with the rest of her composite personality.
Plus, no Dominic. And no explanation for Whiskey in Epitaph One.
All in all, it wasn't a bad episode, but it didn't even come close to the heights we've seen the series reach in several earlier episodes.
Oh, and I found out that Enver has an identical twin brother, Demir (they used him for the Tony fighting Tony attic sequence). Apparently he's an architect.
Awesome.
Speaking of awesome actors, Little Girl did a very good job. And the kid they found to play T did look alot like a mix between his parents.
I really hope Joss continues his trend of reusing good actors and stars , Enver Gjokaj in his next show, the guy is amazing.
chiasaur11
2010-02-01, 12:30 AM
Speaking of awesome actors, Little Girl did a very good job. And the kid they found to play T did look alot like a mix between his parents.
I really hope Joss continues his trend of reusing good actors and stars , Enver Gjokaj in his next show, the guy is amazing.
He'll play everyone.
Fun fact: He doesn't actually have a brother. He has a second false identity so as to enable him to be paid twice.
Not even his parents know the truth.
kpenguin
2010-02-01, 12:44 AM
No Dominic? No Whiskey? Fairly small role for Alpha?
Yeah, a bit disappointed with the finale here.
I'm wondering why they couldn't imprint someone with pre-insanity Topher. Not because it would be feasible, but because I want to see Enver-Toph again.
Callos_DeTerran
2010-02-01, 12:51 AM
*le sigh* I'm kind of disappointed with Alpha's showing in the finale as well, but didn't Echo comment that Alpha wouldn't be erased by the pulse, he'd just evolve again? Or was that my imagination?
He'll play everyone.
Fun fact: He doesn't actually have a brother. He has a second false identity so as to enable him to be paid twice.
Not even his parents know the truth.
What parents? Enver is just pretending to be them.
That said, one of the big complains leveraged against the show was Eliza Dushku not being a good actress. I think what we've learned from Dollhouse is that she's a plenty good actress, she's just not good in quite the right way for the series.
What the series needed was somebody with incredible range, more so than normal. When an actor plays a roll, they have to define it, but alot of the ways people will recognize the role is by the actor playing it. Their appearance, their voice, their mannerisms, ect.
With Dollhouse what she would need to do is define each imprint to the point where it was clearly a different person from all the other characters she'd played in the series. It's a daunting task, and not exactly something they teach in acting 101, but it was important to the show.
Dushku was at her best when she was playing Echo (or Caroline, who seemed like functionally the same person with different skill sets,which plays into the whole "You can't erase somebody" thing), but she wasn't quite able to pull it off earlier on, when the Printing process was working more-or-less as intended. She wasn't able to make each imprint distinct and different in the way Enver Gjokaj and Dichen Lachman could.
I loved the last episodes :smallsmile:
Yes, they had things that were rushed and felt like asspulls... because they WERE rushed and forced to be asspulls. The way I see it, same thing happened here that happened with Serenity, ie, the writers were forced to cram the complete storyline for the entire show into a time interval that was too short for it to begin with. They did the best they could with what they had.
So yeah, a lot of things felt like they popped up out of nowhere and we missed out on a lot of the buildups, resolutions and closures. The tech-heads, Alpha turning good, what happened to Dominic, Topher's insanity and subsequent death-wish, what happened to Whisky, etc etc etc.... If everything had been given several seasons to grow out and be performed properly I'm sure it would all have been explained fine, but they didn't and it wasn't.
But in the time we did have all the really critical stuff was there, we got to see how it all ended, and within that context, it left me feeling well satisfied. Look forward to the next of Whedon's work. (Come on, sequel to Dr. Horrible... come onnnnn....!) :smallwink:
Edit -> I also agree about Dushku, all through the series my impression was that she couldn't stand up to the others acting-wise. But after Epitaph Two (the freakout scene with Sierra after Ballard's death in particular was electrifying) I can see she really IS quite good as an actor, she just wasn't in a role that was suited to her.
magellan
2010-02-02, 12:11 PM
I loved the last episodes :smallsmile:
Yes, they had things that were rushed and felt like asspulls... because they WERE rushed and forced to be asspulls. The way I see it, same thing happened here that happened with Serenity, ie, the writers were forced to cram the complete storyline for the entire show into a time interval that was too short for it to begin with. They did the best they could with what they had.
So yeah, a lot of things felt like they popped up out of nowhere and we missed out on a lot of the buildups, resolutions and closures. The tech-heads, Alpha turning good, what happened to Dominic, Topher's insanity and subsequent death-wish, what happened to Whisky, etc etc etc.... If everything had been given several seasons to grow out and be performed properly I'm sure it would all have been explained fine, but they didn't and it wasn't.
But in the time we did have all the really critical stuff was there, we got to see how it all ended, and within that context, it left me feeling well satisfied. Look forward to the next of Whedon's work. (Come on, sequel to Dr. Horrible... come onnnnn....!) :smallwink:
Edit -> I also agree about Dushku, all through the series my impression was that she couldn't stand up to the others acting-wise. But after Epitaph Two (the freakout scene with Sierra after Ballard's death in particular was electrifying) I can see she really IS quite good as an actor, she just wasn't in a role that was suited to her.
I dont't think thats a really good excuse.
If they didn't have enough time to properly tell the story, why not strike out the completely superfluos appearance of Alpha, Summer glau, and the whole "Victors friends shoot first and ask questions later ... that includes dinner invitations!" stuff. Thats around 10-15 minutes right there, about a 3rd of the episode.
And if they had had so much great ideas for Firefly, that they could have put into Serenity, why didn't they, like, use any of it. Because lets face it: That plot is blander than bland!
Nahhh sorry. "It sucks, because we had to rush during the non-padding bits" doesn't cut it for me.
Platinum_Mongoose
2010-02-02, 01:36 PM
Edit -> I also agree about Dushku, all through the series my impression was that she couldn't stand up to the others acting-wise. But after Epitaph Two (the freakout scene with Sierra after Ballard's death in particular was electrifying) I can see she really IS quite good as an actor, she just wasn't in a role that was suited to her.
I don't think she's been in a role that suited her since Faith. Remember Tru Calling?
I dont't think thats a really good excuse.
Who told you it was an excuse? :smallconfused:
It's the way I see it... and that's really none of your concern, since I wasn't speaking to you at all, and to be honest I haven't even read any of your particular posts (including the quoted one any further than the quoted sentence), since I tend to skip over anything I perceive as needlessly negative.
But hey, you're certainly entitled to an opinion, whatever it may be. Meanwhile, Dollhouse final episodes? Pretty awesome (that statement being directed at the other people in the thread who are ACTUALLY discussing the show, instead of whinging endlessly) :smallsmile:
Edit -> Seriously now, this thread was created by fans of the show, FOR fans of the show, to discuss... the show. I've been coming here for months regularly to talk about it and share, and suddenly I come and there's some joker jumping around who decided this is now his personal camping ground where he's gonna hang out and and start "engaging" every single person who posts as if they were speaking directly to him?? Look... if you have a conversation going with someone here, carry on by all means. Yet I did not quote you or address you in any way so don't drag me into it thank you. It's one thing to come into a thread and give your opinion every once in a while, it's -quite- another to hang around and start trying to argue with anyone and everyone who posts.
Sneak
2010-02-02, 02:59 PM
Who told you it was an excuse? :smallconfused:
It's the way I see it... and that's really none of your concern, since I wasn't speaking to you at all, and to be honest I haven't even read any of your particular posts (including the quoted one any further than the quoted sentence), since I tend to skip over anything I perceive as needlessly negative.
But hey, you're certainly entitled to an opinion, whatever it may be. Meanwhile, Dollhouse final episodes? Pretty awesome (that statement being directed at the other people in the thread who are ACTUALLY discussing the show, instead of whinging endlessly) :smallsmile:
Edit -> Seriously now, this thread was created by fans of the show, FOR fans of the show, to discuss... the show. I've been coming here for months regularly to talk about it and share, and suddenly I come and there's some joker jumping around who decided this is now his personal camping ground where he's gonna hang out and and start "engaging" every single person who posts as if they were speaking directly to him?? Look... if you have a conversation going with someone here, carry on by all means. Yet I did not quote you or address you in any way so don't drag me into it thank you. It's one thing to come into a thread and give your opinion every once in a while, it's -quite- another to hang around and start trying to argue with anyone and everyone who posts.
Um...really? The point of a forum is not just to put your opinions out there but to discuss them. Just because you didn't address someone doesn't mean they can't address you. He was just replying to your post. You're the one who's being unnecessarily confrontational here.
Anyway, I understand the rushed argument, but I also agree with Magellan to some degree. Some of the things that felt a bit rushed, like Topher's insanity, were necessary. It was necessary for the plot, for one thing, and for another, we had already seen it in Epitaph One, and getting rid of it would be a pretty big retcon.
The stuff with Alpha, however, could've easily been left out. He didn't really do anything in the episode, so bringing him up without giving him a satisfying ending was just unnecessary. Maybe with Alpha cut out, they could have given Dominic or Whiskey a real ending.
Um...really? The point of a forum is not just to put your opinions out there but to discuss them. Just because you didn't address someone doesn't mean they can't address you. He was just replying to your post. You're the one who's being unnecessarily confrontational here.
No, he jumps in talking to me as if I'm in the middle of a conversation with him, which I am not, which I found annoying. He's acting and framing my post like I'm presenting an excuse to apologize or justify for something else that he said further up in the thread to somebody else, which I am most certainly not.
Of course I can be disagreed with, but disagree with me based on what I actually wrote, starting from what I actually wrote, not based on the conversation you've been having so far with other people. It just feels rude, sorry.
This board has a one-thread-per-show rule I believe, and under that situation we have to be aware that there may be a few conversations going on at once, and we should respect that. Like I said above, I've been coming on to this thread and posting for months (you can actually see my posts on the first page of the thread) and to come in and find that one person is acting like it's a single conversation revolving around himself is just a bit off-putting is all.
I admit my later edit may have been too harsh, as it was written after having stewed on the rudeness for a while afterward. I apologize for that.
The stuff with Alpha, however, could've easily been left out. He didn't really do anything in the episode, so bringing him up without giving him a satisfying ending was just unnecessary. Maybe with Alpha cut out, they could have given Dominic or Whiskey a real ending.
I agree with that, and to be honest always found Whiskey to be more engaging than Alpha to begin with. I t was actually one thing I was looking forward to, seeing that actress again. Oh well.
Mauve Shirt
2010-02-10, 10:41 AM
Just watched Epitaph 2. I'm underwhelmed, disappointed, and a bit depressed.
I'm pretty sure Joss was thinking "Oh crap, I have only half an hour left and I haven't had a 100% pointless death!"
magellan
2010-02-11, 04:13 AM
Sorry, no confrontation intended, just a friendly "I disagree" and a mild disappointment because the episodes leading up to the last and second last actually were good.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.