Mutants and Masterminds Breakable?

[Whammydill]

So, one of my friends is all in love with M&M. He is convinced that it is ultra-balanced and nigh-impossible to make a character that is to another character, as a wizard is to a fighter in 3.5.

I haven't had a chance to peruse the rule book (2nd ed.,) that much and thats the only book we have for now. At a glance it does look pretty solid but I refuse to believe that there isn't some form of abuse he will need to look out for. We have one player who is a notorious, yet unoriginal munchkin (He goes to optimization boards JUST to get builds that break things.) That may not be true, but I can usually find his builds online almost verbatim.

Basically, whats the flap about M&M. Whats the equivalent of Pun-pun, or other and less horrific slices of cheese?

EDIT: If it matters he is planning a PL 8 game.

[kamikasei]

It is absolutely breakable. The thing is that the rulebook is very clear on the point that the player and DM are supposed to cooperate to ensure the character isn't overpowered, and calls out where and how various powers are open to abuse. So in practice, it shouldn't be broken as often as it could be.

[AmberVael]

One big thing you really want to watch out for are variable powers.

With just the first book, I believe the only variable power available is Shapeshift. But just be warned that investing heavily into Shapeshift can lead to such situations- while they may not have as many points once they've done so, they can switch the points around at will to basically get any effect they desire. So... yeah. Watch out for that.

[The Rose Dragon]

I can destroy the entire world at PL 1, given an entire day, so yeah, it's breakable. It's just incredibly easy for the GM to spot what is breakable and say "no" to it (in fact, most of them are mentioned in the books to begin with).

[Terraoblivion]

Also the system does not come with the assumption that maximizing power is the goal when putting together the mechanics of the character, instead focusing on making evocative characters with a clear theme for both PCs and NPCs. The entire outlook and purpose of the game is simply different from the rather competitive angle that D&D is written from, even if it doesn't have to be played that way.

[Arakune]

I can destroy the entire world at PL 1, given an entire day, so yeah, it's breakable. It's just incredibly easy for the GM to spot what is breakable and say "no" to it (in fact, most of them are mentioned in the books to begin with).

There are some problems that are encouraged, that being summon minion for example. The game isn't very good at giving guidelines of what is broken or not except for the ones that are blatantly obvious (and sometimes even those).

[infinitypanda]

It's extremely breakable, sometimes subtly so, but if the DM and the PCs have a good rapport and are willing to compromise, it's an amazing system.

[shadow_archmagi]

Variable powers are extremely so.

Consider the difference between, say, Cyclops, and Magneto.

Cyclops can fire a laser.

Magneto can fly, build staircases, fire projectiles, block bullets, disarm opponents, abuse wolverine, etc etc.

Each of them took a single power, but while Cyclops put all his ranks into LASER LASER LASER, Magneto put a huge chunk of points into having more and more variable powers.

That said, the game isn't designed to be "balanced" it is designed to be a superhero simulator; when you're building your character you're meant less to be thinking

"Hmm, if I shift nine points into improved grapple I can optimize close combat at the expense of ranged which I'll cover by spending one point on a gun netting me a ten point profit over simply buying the Army Guy perk..."

and more

"Hey guys let's be Batman, Dr. Who, and Jean Luc Picard and have crazy adventures!"

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Picard? Surely you meant Kirk.

[Tengu_temp]

I can destroy the entire world at PL 1, given an entire day, so yeah, it's breakable. It's just incredibly easy for the GM to spot what is breakable and say "no" to it (in fact, most of them are mentioned in the books to begin with).

Actually, if that's the build I think it is, that build doesn't work. Because Indirect doesn't work that way.

M&M is easy to break, but it's still more balanced than DND. People already mentioned variable powers, so I'll give another broken idea - summoning. Cheese it out enough, and you can have dozens of creatures as strong as you at your command. All the time.

[Haven]

That said, the game isn't designed to be "balanced" it is designed to be a superhero simulator; when you're building your character you're meant less to be thinking

"Hmm, if I shift nine points into improved grapple I can optimize close combat at the expense of ranged which I'll cover by spending one point on a gun netting me a ten point profit over simply buying the Army Guy perk..."

and more

"Hey guys let's be Batman, Dr. Who, and Jean Luc Picard and have crazy adventures!"

Exactly this. The thing is, it's designed so it can make anything, which comes at the cost of some balance. The "caps" system levels the playing field a lot, but all in all it's designed for a great deal of cooperation between GM and player.

You want to break M&M by RAW? Blast (extra: Standard Action -> Free Action). Infinite attacks per round. That's it, you're done. But you'll never get to use that character.

It's telling that the official M&M board doesn't really do character optimization. What they do is character accuracy, trying to recreate a character or build their original to embody their ideas as closely as possible. That's what the system's for.

[Project_Mayhem]

Picard? Surely you meant Kirk.

assuming he wanted to FALL OFF A BRIDGE

as opposed to be bald and awesome

[Arakune]

assuming he wanted to FALL OFF A BRIDGE

as opposed to be bald and awesome

In M&M Kirk can take Immunity (bridge damage, bridge death effects)

[woodenbandman]

I will have to run a MnM game one of these days.

[Project_Mayhem]

In M&M Kirk can take Immunity (bridge damage, bridge death effects)

Unfortunately, Immunity (being old and in the same film as the newer, better acted captain) was just too many points

[shadow_archmagi]

Picard? Surely you meant Kirk.

Jean Luc Kirk?

Doesn't work at all.

[Jerthanis]

So, one of my friends is all in love with M&M. He is convinced that it is ultra-balanced and nigh-impossible to make a character that is to another character, as a wizard is to a fighter in 3.5.


HAHAHAHA! Oh, that's a good one.

It's balanced for a point buy system. It's not one of those systems where half the people are one-eyed and purple so they can get the extra points to afford a horn, flight and people-eating while the more normal PCs are mechanically less effective. That is to say, there's no systemic incentive to turn the game into a circus. What's more, the broken powers usually have a sidebar that says, "This power is pretty broken if you take it to an extreme, don't do that."

The only one that jumps to my head immediately is Multiplicity or the Minion summoning powers, which, if you put enough points into them, you can summon a million identical copies of yourself or a million minions in a single action.

Also, there are a lot of ways to save points with Power Drawbacks on container powers like Alternate form (build He-Man and you'll see what I mean, I have the power indeed!)

[Dust]

As the others above me have so insistently.....insisted, MnM is one of the most easily broken game systems out there and your friend is wrong. Entire categories of powers are unbalanced with other powers - any system where Time Travel costs and much as a fuzzy tail will have such problems.

For instance, I could make a PL5 villain (or character, even) named Hivemind. When Hivemind is attacked in combat he can instantly split into ten million smaller (bacteria-sized) versions of himself that enter the attacker's bloodstream and all make simultaneous sneak attacks. Further, if even ONE of these versions of himself survive...say, a nuclear explosion....then he can reform and regenerate himself in a matter of hours.

I'd like to see The Hulk deal with that.


That said, the system is an absolute blast and I recommend it wholeheartedly. If you have a notorious munckin in your gaming group, these are the powers and things he might go for in MnM2e:
Duplication
Additional Limbs
Emotion Control
The 'No Saving Throw' extra
The 'Perception' range extra
Impervious Toughness at a level higher than 2-4
High grappling skills
20+ point Immunities
Summon
Regeneration
Immortality
Animate Objects
Transmute

I'm not saying these things are broken - by no means. Merely things that should catch your eye as you glance over his initial character sheet.

[The Rose Dragon]

Actually, if that's the build I think it is, that build doesn't work. Because Indirect doesn't work that way.

It can still destroy the world in a day (or a week, tops), though, since it deals one bruised condition each round to any intervening obstacles. Sooner or later it will deal enough bruised conditions to destroy the thing quickly.

[AmberVael]

...Additional Limbs...

Okay, everything else, I get. But why Additional limbs? What am I missing here? :smallconfused:

[Doc Roc]

It is absolutely breakable. The thing is that the rulebook is very clear on the point that the player and DM are supposed to cooperate to ensure the character isn't overpowered, and calls out where and how various powers are open to abuse. So in practice, it shouldn't be broken as often as it could be.

Kami is dead on the money. That thing cracks like a rotten egg if you're careless.


Okay, everything else, I get. But why Additional limbs? What am I missing here? :smallconfused:

if they're implemented like usual, moar limbs means moar actions means game over, dude, game over.

[AmberVael]

if they're implemented like usual, moar limbs means moar actions means game over, dude, game over.

They aren't- it is a specific clause under Additional limb. No extra actions, no extra attacks. Essentially you get Improved Grapple and maybe Stability bonuses.

[Dust]

Variable powers are extremely so.

Consider the difference between, say, Cyclops, and Magneto.

Cyclops can fire a laser.

Magneto can fly, build staircases, fire projectiles, block bullets, disarm opponents, abuse wolverine, etc etc.

Each of them took a single power, but while Cyclops put all his ranks into LASER LASER LASER, Magneto put a huge chunk of points into having more and more variable powers.
Interestingly, I think that if either of these characters was pitched to me I'd be highly skeptical of powergaming attempts. I mean, think about it.

Cyclops Player: "OK, so I took max ranks in blast and made it super accurate and deadly BUT flawed it out. Full power, permanent,
GM: "OK, great. Hey, what's that 1 point device do?"
Cyclops: "Oh, uh.....it's Nullify, Self only."
GM: "So you got back thirty points by allocating one to a special pair of glasses/visor that you can use to turn on and off your powers so the flaws don't matter?"
Cyclops: "Well...yeah, but I used 5 of those extra points to buy a sweet motorcycle!"


Magneto Player: "So I use my Move Object (limited: metals and alloys) power to pull the iron out of his bloodstream....now, onwards to the Golden Gate Bridge!"
GM: "Wait, wait, wait."

[Tengu_temp]

It can still destroy the world in a day (or a week, tops), though, since it deals one bruised condition each round to any intervening obstacles. Sooner or later it will deal enough bruised conditions to destroy the thing quickly.

Would you mind linking the whole power? I remember there was another issue with it, but I don't recall what it was exactly.

[Kylarra]

Interestingly, I think that if either of these characters was pitched to me I'd be highly skeptical of powergaming attempts. I mean, think about it.

Cyclops Player: "OK, so I took max ranks in blast and made it super accurate and deadly BUT flawed it out. Full power, permanent,
GM: "OK, great. Hey, what's that 1 point device do?"
Cyclops: "Oh, uh.....it's Nullify, Self only."
GM: "So you got back thirty points by allocating one to a special pair of glasses/visor that you can use to turn on and off your powers so the flaws don't matter?"
Sounds like this (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=73)

[The Rose Dragon]

Would you mind linking the whole power? I remember there was another issue with it, but I don't recall what it was exactly.

Well, I'll see if I can find it. I don't know where I read it first, so it may take me some time.

I think it was something like this, though.

Strike 1 (Area (burst), Progression 20, No Saving Throw) and some other stuff.

I think the biggest problem is that it cost somewhere around 41 power points in total, so it can only be bought at PL 3 with the suggested power point totals. However, it was a power within PL 1 limits.

Of course, it only shows why you shouldn't abuse No Saving Throw and Progression.

[Tengu_temp]

Yeah, I don't know what were they thinking when they added the No Saving Throw extra in Unlimited Power. Especially since most of the other news stuff in this book is reasonable.

[The Rose Dragon]

Yeah, I don't know what were they thinking when they added the No Saving Throw extra in Unlimited Power. Especially since most of the other news stuff in this book is reasonable.

You mean Mastermind's Manual, where it was first introduced.

[Lost Demiurge]

Yeah, it's breakable. Any good superheroes game that uses point-buy and gives that many options is breakable.

[Tengu_temp]

You mean Mastermind's Manual, where it was first introduced.

No, I don't. I only skimmed through Mastermind's Manual so I didn't know it's there as well.

[The Rose Dragon]

No, I don't. I only skimmed through Mastermind's Manual so I didn't know it's there as well.

Gah. That was supposed to be a question mark, not a full stop.

Then again, MMM also had the utterly broken Extra Attacks power, which didn't make it into UP.

[Arakune]

Of course, it only shows why you shouldn't abuse No Saving Throw and Progression.

Isn't No Save explicity saying you can't put it in a attack power?

Edit: Or allowing that is a really, really, REALLY bad idea?

[Jerthanis]

Isn't No Save explicity saying you can't put it in a attack power?

Edit: Or allowing that is a really, really, REALLY bad idea?

IIRC, No Save always limits the power to the lowest application of that power. So damaging attacks can only Bruise with the No Save upgrade, Nausea can only Sicken, not Nauseate, Snare can only slow, no more.

It's still a terrible, terrible idea.

Also, Extra Attacks idea was basically outlined in the core book as, "This game fundamentally functions on the idea that you never will get extra attacks, so superspeed doesn't grant it when 'logically' it would." So I'm a little surprised they turned around on that so quickly.


Interestingly, I think that if either of these characters was pitched to me I'd be highly skeptical of powergaming attempts. I mean, think about it.

Cyclops Player: "OK, so I took max ranks in blast and made it super accurate and deadly BUT flawed it out. Full power, permanent,
GM: "OK, great. Hey, what's that 1 point device do?"
Cyclops: "Oh, uh.....it's Nullify, Self only."
GM: "So you got back thirty points by allocating one to a special pair of glasses/visor that you can use to turn on and off your powers so the flaws don't matter?"
Cyclops: "Well...yeah, but I used 5 of those extra points to buy a sweet motorcycle!"


Magneto Player: "So I use my Move Object (limited: metals and alloys) power to pull the iron out of his bloodstream....now, onwards to the Golden Gate Bridge!"
GM: "Wait, wait, wait."

The way I've seen Cyclops built with M&M is that his eyebeam powers all had the drawbacks Always On and Full Power and something like "blind while not using it", and the points gained from that power were paid back at 1:1 from device points from the Device power. It's much more fair and accurate than the idea of Nullifier goggles.

And Magneto clearly has an array power "Magnetic Control" and uses the option to use Hero Points to gain alternate power uses for it a lot.

[Cainen]

Yeah, I don't know what were they thinking when they added the No Saving Throw extra in Unlimited Power. Especially since most of the other news stuff in this book is reasonable.

They were thinking of just Dazing and Slowing, which are more reasonable effects than instant Bruising.


Gah. That was supposed to be a question mark, not a full stop.

Then again, MMM also had the utterly broken Extra Attacks power, which didn't make it into UP.

They were doing that to implement iterative attacks without resorting to AB, from what I remember. Still broken, and Autofire does its job with more balance and speed.

[Hyfigh]

The system is easily broken, but as pointed out before, everything is based around trying to cooperate with the DM/player relation.

I view it as a much more balanced system than 3.5, though. Given the same parameters for character creation (same power points, same rules for power containers, etc) the characters are likely going to be similar in power level.

What really draws me into the system isn't the balancing factor; I really like having such an open ended system that uses similar rules for attacks/defenses/stats as 3.5. It's supposed to be a super-hero styled system but with a bit of imagination it can fill many, many niches. I haven't found something I wanted to emulate that I haven't figured out a way to make it work mechanically.

[J.Gellert]

To me, there's two kinds of balance.

There is "everyone is weak" balance, where every character can do reasonable things and no one goes over an accepted power limit. A D&D group of all rogues is balanced like this.

Then there is the "everyone is awesome" balance, where every character can pull off stunts like insta-kills, reincarnation, and so on. A D&D group of all druids is balanced like this (Also, you see it in RTS games where every army has its own array of superweapons and gameplay comes down to who gets to use them first. Similarly, in the RPG version of this, it often comes down to winning initiative, as in spellcaster combat. And no, I have no idea what happens if both mages cast celerity at the same time, ask your DM).

M&M seems to be closer to the second type. Sure, Magneto can pull off so many tricks, but if your buddy is playing Magneto, you can play Dr Strange...

Granted, that's still talking about balance of a sort. If you take 10.000 free action blast attacks in one round, that's plain broken, and no one serious will introduce it in a game anyway.

[Arakune]

Yes but for the purpose of this thread can we stick to only "acidental" breaking?

[Tengu_temp]

They were thinking of just Dazing and Slowing, which are more reasonable effects than instant Bruising.


I'd say that even insta-daze is an overkill. It means that as long as you can hit, you can take an enemy out of combat forever. Make it an area power and only enemies with evasion or immunity to daze/stun have any defense against it.

[Zeta Kai]

assuming he wanted to FALL OFF A BRIDGE

as opposed to be bald and awesome

LOL & QFT. You win an Internet, good sir.

[Green Bean]

IIRC, No Save always limits the power to the lowest application of that power. So damaging attacks can only Bruise with the No Save upgrade, Nausea can only Sicken, not Nauseate, Snare can only slow, no more.

It's still a terrible, terrible idea.


It's even more broken than that. The Mastermind's Manual version is ambiguous, but the Ultimate Power version says you still roll a save as normal, and inflict the lowest result even on a pass. So it's lose/lose worse for the target.

[infinitypanda]

Yes but for the purpose of this thread can we stick to only "acidental" breaking?

Teleportation (Portals, Size progression X). Depends on how you read the portal power. If you read it that the portals are stationary, it's fine. But if the character can move the portals at will, he can pretty much handle anything by flinging around 1000 foot wide portals into space or wherever.

Oh, and speaking of Mutants and Masterminds, I picked up Warriors and Warlocks today. It is so awesome just opening the book killed me with sheer overwhelming power, but once I started reading it I was brought back to life by its soothing touch.

[Cainen]

I'd say that even insta-daze is an overkill.

It'd be nicer if Dazed was more like its D&D counterpart instead of a Stun-1.

[Project_Mayhem]

LOL & QFT. You win an Internet, good sir.

I do believe that's my first. I shall hang it over the mantlepiece, next to my meagre TF2 awards.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Long story short, Mutants & Masterminds is easily breakable. The book's just good at repeating telling you "don't break the game, you idiot, that makes it less fun", as well as calling out the GMs where the stuff that's easily breakable by PCs but handy to have for NPCs is, like Summon.

[Oslecamo]

Long story short, Mutants & Masterminds is easily breakable. The book's just good at repeating telling you "don't break the game, you idiot, that makes it less fun", as well as calling out the GMs where the stuff that's easily breakable by PCs but handy to have for NPCs is, like Summon.

+1. It gets somewhat tiring when you realize 1/10 of the book is wasted telling the GM to use common sense to avoid broken stuff in almost every other ability.

But hey, if that's what it takes for GMs to use common sense, it may not be as wasted as that.

[DeathQuaker]

Long story short, Mutants & Masterminds is easily breakable. The book's just good at repeating telling you "don't break the game, you idiot, that makes it less fun", as well as calling out the GMs where the stuff that's easily breakable by PCs but handy to have for NPCs is, like Summon.

I'll QFT this as well, and reiterate that the book's good at making clear that the GM has an unlimited use of that so often underestimated power: to say no.

One other issue is that as someone can make something terribly broken, the powers are such that the GM has the power to come up with something worse. You try to make your character invulnerable, the GM WILL find a way to beat it, and them get you to agree to design a more playable character.

As for specific things to watch out for:

Devices and Power Arrays. These two are ways to get strong powers at a reduced cost, and although there are limitations to these, people who are crafty with throwing on adds and disadds just might be able to come up with a Power Rank 2 Pogo Stick that can annihilate the entire planet. The GM should make sure he/she is very intimate with how building Devices and Power Arrays works, and make sure players are doing it properly.

The GM will also need to be careful that the player hasn't gone crazy in trying to buy weird-ass disadvantages to give him more power points. Disads are fine, but obviously they need to make sense.

The other issues are actually clearly outlined in the book as noted. There's a reason the book itself says, "Be careful about giving your characters Time Control." It's kind of a "duh" thing.

Since your game is at PL 8 which is lower than "standard," someone trying to build the ultimate uber combo power will be a little more difficult.

[The Rose Dragon]

The other issues are actually clearly outlined in the book as noted. There's a reason the book itself says, "Be careful about giving your characters Time Control." It's kind of a "duh" thing.

The book never says that. It says something similar about Time Travel, but Time Control is just Super-Speed with Affects Others and Ranged extras, so it doesn't have to control Time Control super-tightly.

[DeathQuaker]

The book never says that. It says something similar about Time Travel, but Time Control is just Super-Speed with Affects Others and Ranged extras, so it doesn't have to control Time Control super-tightly.

I'm sorry. I will never paraphrase carelessly without consulting the book again. I am wrong, horribly wrong, and am deeply ashamed. You win.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm sorry. I will never paraphrase carelessly without consulting the book again. I am wrong, horribly wrong, and am deeply ashamed. You win.

Don't be sorry, lass, I'm just a horrible nitpicker. And a pedant.