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Samurai Jill
2009-09-11, 11:13 AM
These articles' summary thread may be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6938183&postcount=1).

A Brief Introduction

Simulationism is best summed up as the idea that "Internal cause is King". It's a style of play that focuses primarily on reinforcing the idea that the world- and it's inhabitants- are somehow independant entities that can go about their own business, without the intrusion of real-world priorities. It's the desire to create a 'pocket universe' of sorts- that, following on suitable preparation, the internal operations of the imagined world should, in a sense, proceed automatically- without conscious creative attention.

...Simulationist play looks awfully strange to those who enjoy lots of metagame and overt social context during play. "You do it just to do it? What the hell is that?"

However, contrary to some accusations, it's not autistic or schizophrenic, being just as social and group-Premise as any other role-playing. The key issues are shared love of the source material and sincerity. Simulationism is sort of like Virtual Reality, but with the emphasis on the "V," because it clearly covers so many subjects. Perhaps it could be called V-Whatever rather than V-Reality. If the Whatever is a fine, cool thing, then it's fun to see fellow players imagine what you are imagining, and vice versa. (By "you" in that sentence, I am referring to anyone at the table, GM or player.) To the dedicated practitioner, such play is sincere to a degree that's lacking in heavy-metagame play, and that sincerity is the quality that I'm focusing on throughout this essay.

...Two games may be equally Simulationist even if one concerns coping with childhood trauma and the other concerns blasting villains with lightning bolts. What makes them Simulationist is the strict adherence to in-game (i.e. pre-established) cause for the outcomes that occur during play.
The ideal to aspire to here, even if it's illusory, is that the world doesn't radiate out from the needs and concerns of the players- that they're all 'just visiting,' so to speak. The world is, of course, not real- but the idea is make the collective 'suspension of disbelief' as easy as possible. To 'Be there.' That's it!

What follows is some general discussion of the diversity of the Simulationist design, and of techniques associated with it that can lead to it's confusion with other modes of play.

Elements of Exploration
Colour- description of perceptions or detail that isn't directly relevant.
Setting- the imagined world and it's major component parts.
Character- the individual as inhabitant of the world, controlled by a player.
Situation- a specific focus of 'conflicting interests' between the above.
System- the consistent methods by which interaction of the above is resolved.

These things are necessarily present in all role-play to a greater or lesser degree, but in Simulationism, the faithful modelling in accordance with genre convention of one or more of them is the primary and dominant focus of the players' attentions. (Note we can call 'reality' as a genre here.) Players often confuse the Exploration of Character, Setting, Situation or Colour, in itself, or in any combination, with Narrativism, and the Exploration of System with Gamism. Neither is neccesarily the case. Just because you're rolling dice doesn't mean you're aiming to win, and just because you aren't doesn't mean you have protagonism.

Rules for characters' movement in the imagined space of the situation go all the way back to wargaming, in the (to us oldies) familiar forms of grids and hex-maps, counters, and even rules or tape-measures. The original context was pretty large-scale: the movement of troops, heavy vehicles, squadrons, and so on. For role-playing in the "new" sense, the scale got bumped down to the individual level, and so came to emphasize facing, movement rate, turn rate, number of personal actions, and similar.

The interesting thing is that most of these specific details have been lost in most, although not all, Simulationist rules design over the decades, with nary a whimper. Why? Because second-to-second kinetics ceased to be (or rarely were) the issue of Exploration at hand, particularly in genre-heavy play... The Situation of interest typically isn't "facing" when we want Character, Setting, System, Situation, and Color to fire on shared cylinders with full internal-consistency and agreed-upon thematic outcomes.

Role-play vs. Roll-play: The Overblown Distinction

The oft-touted distinction between roll-play and role-play is nothing more or less than the Exploration of System and the Exploration of Character- either of which, when prioritised, is Simulationism...
Why? Because both, when made a foremost and formal concern of play, reinforce the notion that "Internal cause is King"- that events in-game should unfold based on internal logic, rather than external agenda. (Replace 'Exploration' with 'Simulation', and it becomes much clearer.) One stresses that characters should act on the basis of IC information only, the other stresses that in-world events follow predictable statistical trends.

Neither is mutually exclusive, however. It is entirely possible to approximate various mental attributes of a character through numerical guages, just as it possible to augment resolution of physical interaction through vivid, vicarious description. Many Simulationist (or partly Simulationist) rule-sets use a blend of both. (Again, however- if one's arm were to be twisted- one might say that Simulationist roll-play tends to mesh better with Gamist concerns, and that Simulationist role-play tends to mesh better with Narrativist concerns. The former has an iron impartiality that can help guarantee fairness, and the latter is more easily adapted to the demands of addressing Premise.)

High-Concept and Purist-For-System
These are the two grand traditions of Simulationist play and design.

Purist For System is the pursuit of a detailed, often fairly realistic mechanical framework which can resolve the details of physical interaction across a wide variety of scales, in time and space, while remaining flexible enough to adapt to more than one setting. A frequent approach is what's called a 'General' system, where the core components are standardised, and then extended or tweaked to cope with the nuances of different scales, settings, or even creative agendas. GURPS and FUDGE are fair examples.

...In this sort of design, there's no possible excuse for any imperfections, including scale-derived breakdowns of the fundamental point/probability relationships. The system must be cleanly and at the service of the element(s) being emphasized, in strictly in-game-world terms. A good one is elegant, consistent, applicable to anything that happens in play, and clear about its outcomes. It also has to have points of contact at any scale for any conceivable thing. It cannot contain patch-rules to correct for inconsistencies; consistency is the essence of quality.

As I see it, Purist for System design is a tall, tall order. It's arguably the hardest design spec in all of role-playing.

High Concept design aims to recreate the conventions of a specific literary or cinematic genre or body of related works, sometimes blending the aspects of several, and benefit substantially from specialising their mechanics to evoke the recurrent motifs and underlying themes of such works. Examples include Call of Cthulhu, Serenity and Deadlands, with varying degrees of success from a design standpoint. (A good many Narrativist RPGs share a similar agenda, as it helps them to keep their rules focused, and therefore relatively concise.)

In cinema, "High Concept" refers to any film idea that can be pitched in a very limited amount of time; the usual method uses references to other films. Sometimes, although not necessarily, it's presented as a combination: "Jaws meets Good Will Hunting," or that sort of thing. I'm adopting it to role-playing without much modification, although emphasizing that the source references can come from any medium and also that the two-title combo isn't always employed.

...writing a High Concept Simulationist game is actually much easier than writing a Purist for System one, as complex Setting-prep or Situation-prep have a lot in common with writing a story and knowing "how it's supposed to go" but not finishing it. However, playing this kind of game is actually harder in some ways - everyone must be pumped about the in-game content, but without reference to a corresponding metagame.

Are there conflicts between these different approaches, between each genre? Sure. But they're generally obvious and easily spotted, and consequently don't require discussion in much detail. Anyone sticking superheroes into the Cthulhu Mythos is generally begging for trouble. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellboy)

Freeform vs. Heavyweight
Having lots of elaborate rules, extensive setting description or lengthy character creation guidelines does not neccesarily mean a game is Simulationist. Depending on the 'genre' in question, very few rules could be needed (e.g, Wushu, Risus,) and conversely, a very elaborate rule-set might not model any set of genre expectations with great fidelity (e.g, AD&D), or place primary emphasis on a different creative agenda (e.g, 4E D&D, Burning Wheel: Gamist and Narrativist respectively.)

Simulationism vs. Exploration
This is a terminological distinction which I think causes a good deal of confusion, so I'll just cut to the chase here: There is very, very little qualitative difference between what's called 'Exploration' and Simulationism in terms of their associated techniques or underlying imaginative priorities. Pure Simulationism is defined as Exploration-to-the-exclusion-of-other-concerns, but a degree of Exploration is actually essential to nearly all RPGs.

If one were to twist my arm, I would say that the distinction between the two is between plausibility or suspension of disbelief and accuracy or likelihood. During Exploration, it's okay to introduce new elements of character or setting provided what you add doesn't actively contradict what's been established before. Simulationism, on the other hand, frowns upon any introduction that isn't actively demanded by the interactions of prior elements- because, again, "Internal cause is King".

The line between the two is often very blurry, as, even outside of Sim play, different people have quite different standards of plausibility or standards for the suspension of disbelief, and Simulationism is also the only GNS mode recognised as being able to functionally hybridise- in a supportive role- with other modes of play. Nonetheless, it's a distinction you can't wholly ignore.

There is one possible exception to this rule: Hard Core Gamism. Gamism is the only creative agenda which can survive the process of total or near-total abstraction- but such play lies (by definition!) outside the scope of this discussion, and will need to be covered later.

Illusionism vs. Narrativism: A Real Distinction
Force is formally defined as the deliberate constraint of player decisions to conform with the GM's authority. When it's obvious, it's called railroading. Simulationist (or even Sim-inclined) players rarely put up with the obvious use of Force, because it visibly betrays the implied agreement that "Internal cause is King". How, then, do you furnish them with a compelling story? The most frequent solution is Illusionism- the gentle herding of players towards predetermined thematic conclusions based solely on the manipulation of IC environmental data.

...A lot of internet blood has been spilled regarding how this phenomenon is or is not related to Narrativist play, but I think it's an easy issue. The key for these games is GM authority over the story's content and integrity at all points, including managing the input by players. Even system results are judged appropriate or not by the GM; "fudging" Fortune outcomes is overtly granted as a GM right.

The Golden Rule of White Wolf games is a covert way to say the same thing: ignore any rule that interferes with fun. No one, I presume, thinks that any player may invoke the Golden Rule at any time; what it's really saying is that the GM may ignore any rule (or any player who invokes it) that ruins his or her idea of what should happen.

...for example in Arrowflight (2002, Deep 7; the author is Todd Downing).

Driving the Plot
Once you've constructed your magnum opus of a campaign plot, the players will inevitably find ways to exploit, ignore, or downright break all of your hard work. You can either let that happen, or you can crack the whip and get them back in line. Don't be afraid of exploiting a character's past or weakness to ensure complicity. After all, you are the storyteller. Without you, they'd be playing Monopoly. Some of the tried and true methods of driving a plot are as follows:

- Start the characters off in Adversity. Strip them of everything ...
- Alternately, have them called upon to serve the Common Good ...
- Appeal to any number of Baser Instincts ...
- Force them in a certain direction with Rule of Law ...
- Similar to the Rule of Law, you can direct your players with Threat of Bodily Harm ...

..."Story" emerges from the GM's efforts in this regard, with players being either cooperative (passively or actively), or obstreperous, in which case various "don't let them take over" methods are encouraged.
Players frequently mistake this process for genuine creative input to the story, and hence Narrativism. It is nothing of the sort. Creative input from the players here is by definition nil. Their attentions are neccesarily elsewhere- on staying in character, and reacting to stimuli in a believable fashion- and not upon the demands of authorship. This confusion is further compounded when a formerly Simulationist GM does start demanding active creative input from the players:

Jesse: I'm just still a little confused between Narrativism and Simulationism where the Situation has a lot of ethical/moral problems embedded in it and the GM uses no Force techniques to produce a specific outcome. I don't understand how Premise-expressing elements can be included and players not be considered addressing a Premise when they can't resolve the Situation without doing so.

Me: There is no such Simulationism. You're confused between Narrativism and Narrativism, looking for a difference when there isn't any.
Why would this break Sim?- Because the GM winds up specifically angling conflicts to push the PCs' emotional buttons from then on. All of a sudden, the world revolves around them, and not the other way around. In short, play ceases to model the world as an independant entity- the metagame agenda of Narrativism has quietly taken over.


Potential GNS Conflicts

Gamist Conflict: The Absence of Abstraction
While often a useful complement to Gamist play, such... imprecise concepts as Classes, Levels, HP and XP, without useful in-world analogues often undercut the Simulationist aesthetic quite badly. There's no concrete, in-world reason why slaughtering kobolds should magically make you better at picking locks. Conversely, there's no concrete, in-world reason why veteran warriors should find picking up skills impossibly arduous compared with novices in the trade. There's no concrete, in-world reason why clerics should automatically find it tougher to learn stealth- and there sure as Hell ain't no concrete, in-world reason why seasoned characters may only die the proverbial 'death by a thousand cuts', whilst keen-young-hopefuls keel over with a broadsword to the nads.

Particularly to the Purist-for-System Simulationist, these notions are, without exception, perfect nonsense. When I see threads dissecting in detail how Hit Points might "make sense", I really despair. To do so is to miss the point- they are there to make combat survivable, not directly enhance immersion. Levels and Classes are there to enforce parity in character effectiveness and ensure niche protection. XP is detached from the use of specific skills to allow the player to strategise in terms of character resources without constraining per-encounter tactics. These are all Gamist concerns.

Magic is something of a special case. Modelling sorcery is of course never going to conform comfortably to the known laws of thermodynamics, but at the same time, magic plays such an integral and characteristic role in many settings that it's fans may be nettled considerably when it's forced to conform to the needs of a fire-at-will tactical arsenal. To give but one example, a D&D sorceror in the Earthsea setting would stick out like a porn store in the Vatican.

Alas, Truenamer. I knew thee well.

However, High-Concept Simulationist play which specifically makes reference to literary or cinematic genres involving impossibly robust characters- e.g, Wuxia fantasy, powerful Superheroes, high-octane action flicks, maybe even Anime CRPGs- (do they constitute a 'genre' at this point?) -may actively demand breaches of realism along many fronts. Even here, primary Simulationist focus tends to be on accuracy first and balance or tactical variety second, but subordination to Gamism (or, indeed, Narrativism) might well be less uncomfortable in such cases.

Gamist Conflict: Life is Unfair
In their original Tolkienesque conception, Elves are more powerful than Orcs. More powerful than Humans. More powerful than Dwarves. Definitely more powerful than Halflings. Don't pretend otherwise- That's just the way things are. We're talking a +8 Dex bonus here- plus the fact even the greenest of them has probably seen more action than members of any other race can accumulate in a lifetime. There is no way to model such a setting faithfully, AND allow players to access the character diversity of associated stories, AND accomodate Gamist play.

...I won't even get started on realistic katana duels.

Gamist Conflict: What's my angle?
This is very similar to the Gamist conflict with Narrativism: A Gamist tends to put up with ethical restrictions on their character in much the same way they'll take a -2 Con bonus for playing elves: it's a strategic tradeoff to be weighed and considered in terms of long-term profits and losses. This is difficult to balance with committed role-play of a convincing character.

Narrativist Conflict: Formalisation or Mechanisation of Personality
This is basically the 'breach of contract' I discussed in the Nar essay: the idea that a character's goals, ethics, personality traits and other mental quirks can be put down on paper and their varied interactions tracked mechanically. Such techniques can, up to a point, theoretically benefit either Narrativist or Simulationist play, but there is a subtle distinction between how each would use it: in Narrativist play, there is an active expectation that personality will (or at least could) change at the player's discretion- in Simulationist play, that idea is generally frowned upon. In the former case, it discloses motives in a way that makes collaboration on Theme easier. In the latter case, it regulates how the character should reliably behave at all times. It curtails choices, rather than heightening them.

In other words, personality traits in Simulationism represent safeguards. In Narrativism, they are battlegrounds. During play, the difference could hardly be more marked.

Narrativist Conflict: Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain
This is the aforementioned Illusionism, and is an excellent technique for imposing an overall story upon the sequence of events without the requirement of players having to be consciously concerned with thematic authorship. This can be a very functional style of play, and allows for thrilling stories without violation of the key Simulationist aesthetic of acting on the basis of IC information and environmental stimuli alone (-indeed, such commitment is what allows Simulationists to be gently corralled for thematic purposes in the first place.) A general "agreement to be deceived" prevails in such groups, which are very good at hashing out their respective tolerances for the covert use of Force.

But it is not, and never can be, collaborative authorship of story.

Narrativist Conflict: FREEEEEDOOOOM!
At the opposite extreme, some Simulationist GMs make no attempt to direct players' attentions whatsoever. And again, as long as the players feel engaged by... whatever it is they are doing.... then there is nothing inherently wrong with this. It just ain't story.

Protagonism is incompatible with the GM making your significant decisions for you, by obvious methods or otherwise, but neither is it compatible with the total absence of all constraint. A story has constraints- the active address of premise through protagonism to produce theme- and while there is immense variety within those constraints, you must acknowledge them- consciously or otherwise- before story can emerge. The key is to push the emotional buttons of the characters as hard as possible- presenting them with increasingly pitched internal conflicts- while being as accomodating as possible in dealing with their reactions. This kind of treatment usually involves a lot of serendipity, unhappy coincidence, and general stretching of strict probability. That doesn't mesh well with Sim priorities.

Narrativist Conflict: Death by the numbers.
This has been touched on already in the Nar essay under the heading of 'points of contact' and 'appropriate levels of detail' to cover two seperate but related points of friction: Simulationists- particularly of the heavyweight variety- often like to nail things down precisely. They want detailed characters, a detailed setting, detailed skill-proficiencies that advance chiefly through practice, and detailed task resolution during play. Many of these measures either actively constrain the address of premise by limiting what characters can viably attempt, or simply take too much effort for the Narrativist to be bothered.


A Closing Word

Simulationism has a very venerable tradition in RPGs, dating right back to the dawn of the hobby- Runequest is perhaps the earliest clear example. Examples are not hard to come by, and the techniques they employ can often be very useful in other GNS modes.


Here's a quick overview of existing diversity in Simulationist play. I'm focusing on fun, functional, coherent play - none of the following is a criticism or indictment. Also, I've tried to represent as many creator-owned titles as possible, but I'll refer to others as needed.

...Purists for System
What games are these? EABA, JAGS, SOL, Pocket Universe, and Fudge are deliberately "generalist" regarding setting. The big commercial models are GURPS, BRP (in its "unstripped" form), DC Heroes (now Blood of Heroes), Rolemaster, D6 (derived and considerably Simulationized from Star Wars), and the Hero System (as such, mainly derived from Danger International and Fantasy Hero rather than early Champions).

...High Concept
...This sort of game design will be familiar to almost anyone, represented by Arrowflight (Setting), Pax Draconis (Setting), Godlike (Setting), Sun & Storm (Setting + Situation), Dreamwalker (Situation), The Godsend Agenda (Character-Setting tug-of-war), The Collectors (applied Fudge, Situation + Character), Heartquest (applied Fudge; Character), Children of the Sun (Setting), Fvlminata (Setting), and Dread (Situation + Character), Fading Suns (Setting), Earthdawn (Setting), Space: 1889 (Setting), Mutant Chronicles (Setting), Mage first edition (Character), Mage second edition (Setting), Ironclaw (Setting), and Continuum (Setting with a touch of System). Many Fantasy Heartbreakers fall into this category, almost all Setting-based. Some of the best-known games of this type include Tekumel, Jorune, Traveller (specifically in its mid-80s through mid-90s form), Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon, Nephilim, Feng Shui, the various secondary settings for AD&D2 like Al-Qadim, and quite a few D20 or WEG games which rely on licensing...

Darrin
2009-09-11, 11:28 AM
I think you really need to consider adding a dissertation thesis committee to your life.

Samurai Jill
2009-09-11, 11:43 AM
Ehhh, I'll be done soon enough. But thanks. ...I think.

Kalirren
2009-09-11, 11:46 AM
I think you really need to consider adding a dissertation thesis committee to your life.

Although your manuscript would be in for a world of pain if as it turned out in the previous threads your committee turned out to be me, Saph, Diamondeye, and Aik.

I of course do plan to weigh in on this thread, since I'm still waiting on a response from Aik about a thesis that I raised in the previous thread on Narrativism. Just not now. I've an assignment to do right now before section in an hour and a half.

Let me start off the discussion by asking you to elaborate on something:



What makes [these games] Simulationist is the strict adherence to in-game (i.e. pre-established) cause for the outcomes that occur during play.


Could you comment on Edwards' suggestion here that in-game cause equates to pre-established cause? In my understanding, one of the common objections to Edward's construction of Sim is that he unnecessarily and incorrectly conflates these two notions. Do you agree with Edwards on this point, and if so, why? How does this bear out in your play experience?

bosssmiley
2009-09-11, 05:05 PM
More on Foo-Bar-Skub Theory? Ron Edwards has a lot to answer for bringing this pseudo-analytical wanking into our happy little hobby. :smallannoyed:

When measured in terms of the sum total added to human happiness Jeff Rients Retro-Stupid-Pretentious (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2006/02/i-got-your-threefold-model-right-here.html) model > Ron's GNS model.

"GNS? Stands for 'get new snacks'. Shut up and roll! This magic tea party won't play itself." :smalltongue:

horseboy
2009-09-11, 10:22 PM
When measured in terms of the sum total added to human happiness Jeff Rients Retro-Stupid-Pretentious (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2006/02/i-got-your-threefold-model-right-here.html) model > Ron's GNS model.
WAAAAAYY more useful than GNS (and more accurate). Not to mention the whole brevity is the soul of whit thing.

I vote the d6 Star Wars for the black spot. George Lucas is pretentious, the mechanics are retro, and those dice pools a Jedi wield are pretty stupid.

ScreamingDoom
2009-09-11, 10:42 PM
WAAAAAYY more useful than GNS (and more accurate). Not to mention the whole brevity is the soul of whit thing.


While I agree that the Retro-Stupid-Pretentious model is much more accurate and useful than the GNS model, I oppose the use of the term "Retro". I much prefer what one comment suggested of "Decrepit", properly insulting all aspects of the spectrum.

In all seriousness, the GNS model is a load of dingos kidneys. It's false dichotomy supported by intentionally confusing jargon and intellectual slight-of-hand. Like most post modernism.

And just like most post-modernism, it can be rejected out of hand.

horseboy
2009-09-11, 11:06 PM
What about "Codger" or "Fogy"? Man, now I want a T-shirt or something that says. "I'm so Pretentious-Stupid I use crit charts for Pokethulthu."

Fhaolan
2009-09-12, 12:13 AM
In all seriousness, the GNS model is a load of dingos kidneys. It's false dichotomy supported by intentionally confusing jargon and intellectual slight-of-hand. Like most post modernism.

false trichotomy :smalltongue:

Zincorium
2009-09-12, 01:07 AM
false trichotomy :smalltongue:

That sounds like some sort of medical procedure.

Samurai Jill
2009-09-12, 07:25 PM
I of course do plan to weigh in on this thread, since I'm still waiting on a response from Aik about a thesis that I raised in the previous thread on Narrativism. Just not now. I've an assignment to do right now before section in an hour and a half.
I will try to get back to your replies in the other thread too.

Could you comment on Edwards' suggestion here that in-game cause equates to pre-established cause? In my understanding, one of the common objections to Edward's construction of Sim is that he unnecessarily and incorrectly conflates these two notions. Do you agree with Edwards on this point, and if so, why? How does this bear out in your play experience?
I think it does correlate well with my own habits in play, since I tend to view spontaneous improvisations to the setting by the GM with a kind of suspicion. I would guess... because it's harder to rule out ulterior motives. (Of course, G and N play, in essence, ARE ulterior motives- hence the incompatibility, but anyways.)

But, more than that, I think it's a question of definitions- Anything you are making up on the spot, by definition, isn't emerging fully specified from the world's internal logic, by itself. I think that's what distinguishes the demand for accuracy from the demand for plausibility. Even if it's not a hard line, there is a separation there.

I vote the d6 Star Wars for the black spot. George Lucas is pretentious, the mechanics are retro, and those dice pools a Jedi wield are pretty stupid.
I can't comment myself, since I haven't played that system, but is there something inherently wrong with 'retro'?

...And just like most post-modernism, it can be rejected out of hand.
"Rejected out of hand" is a phrase similar to "nothing you say can possibly convince me". It's a failure to even address the argument.

Yukitsu
2009-09-12, 07:42 PM
"Rejected out of hand" is a phrase similar to "nothing you say can possibly convince me". It's a failure to even address the argument.

Usually, it's also applied to any theory which has no rigour applied to it, does not use clear terminology, and has no quantifiable measures which can be applied to it. GNS as presented largely falls into these categories.

Samurai Jill
2009-09-12, 08:46 PM
Usually, it's also applied to any theory which has no rigour applied to it, does not use clear terminology, and has no quantifiable measures which can be applied to it. GNS as presented largely falls into these categories.
There's an abundance of terminology and a great deal of rigour applied, it just requires actual study of the theory to grasp the former and appreciate the latter. There's no more difficulty with quantifiability than there is in psychology in general (though I'll freely admit a willing sponsor for a systematic GNS survey of RP preferences would not go amiss.)

Yukitsu
2009-09-12, 08:54 PM
There's an abundance of terminology and a great deal of rigour applied, it just requires actual study of the theory to grasp the former and appreciate the latter. There's no more difficulty with quantifiability than there is in psychology in general (though I'll freely admit a willing sponsor for a systematic GNS survey of RP preferences would not go amiss.)

I said as presented. The terminology is not consistent with the meanings used, and the differences are either vague, explained in negatives or not explained at all, the rigour is only in theory (I haven't seen any links to any tests to measure this, nor critiques from experts in the field of game theory, though game theory is a misnomer there.) and to be honest, even with several full readings of the theory, those fail to manifest, so I doubt it's a lack of study. Perhaps a formal citations page on this work, and on Edward's would make me stop questioning the validity of the theory.

Psychology in general is rather more advanced than it used to be, and objective testing is now a part of psychological theory, which is distinct from that pop pseudo theory that most people are readily aware of. Basically, if you think psychology reflects those self help books written by sketchy psychologists at the indigo book stores, you're looking in the wrong direction, most of the time. Most psychological theories are tossed off hand if they don't have any statistical backing and no one is willing to check.

Raum
2009-09-12, 09:16 PM
There's an abundance of terminology...That's certainly true! :smallwink:


...and a great deal of rigour applied...This isn't exactly true, not that I've seen at least. 'Rigour' means it has been tested repeatedly and objectively. I have yet to see any data gathered for testing. Instead, reasons are presented about why one or more data sets don't, or at least shouldn't, apply to GNS.


...it just requires actual study of the theory to grasp the former and appreciate the latter. There's no more difficulty with quantifiability than there is in psychology in general...Interestingly, psychology is far more quantifiable than most people think. It's not related to gaming, but check out Rebecca Saxe's discussion of how we make moral judgments (http://www.ted.com/talks/rebecca_saxe_how_brains_make_moral_judgments.html) for one example. On second thought, it may well be related to some of the paladin and alignment discussions I've seen. :smallcool:


...(though I'll freely admit a willing sponsor for a systematic GNS survey of RP preferences would not go amiss.)Here's where I have to question motives. Hopefully it's just a text communication issue, but when you say you want a "GNS survey of RP preferences" you don't appear to be asking for a survey to test the theory. It's written like you want a "survey of RP preferences" which will fit into GNS. That's backwards.

Edit: Here's another link to quantified data on psychology, specifically the "Science of Motivation" (http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html) and how accepted practices are largely wrong. Again, it's not directly game related. It's just quantified psychology.

The New Bruceski
2009-09-12, 09:46 PM
This whole thing reminds me of an XKCD strip. (http://xkcd.com/169/)

Samurai Jill
2009-09-12, 09:56 PM
'Rigour' means it has been tested repeatedly and objectively...
That seems a redundant requirement within the given sentence... I took it to mean 'consistent logical analysis.'

...Here's where I have to question motives. Hopefully it's just a text communication issue, but when you say you want a "GNS survey of RP preferences" you don't appear to be asking for a survey to test the theory...
GNS makes very specific predictions about and distinctions between each group. A survey could not find data that conforms with GNS predictions of the existence/prevalence of each group while asking questions based on those predictions/distinctions, if those groups do not exist. (For my own part, I think the WotC study results on the subject are definitely compatible with GNS predictions AND patently contradict their own conclusions on the subject, for reasons I've covered here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6874634&postcount=11). Fundamental frictions between each demographic are very clearly in evidence there, and players without strong preferences are in a distinct minority. But it doesn't directly confirm GNS either, because I don't think it's asking the questions you need to distinguish Narrativists from Simulationists.)

Yukitsu
2009-09-12, 10:07 PM
That seems a redundant requirement within the given sentence... I took it to mean 'consistent logical analysis.'

It wasn't particularly redundant. That there were no attempts at testing or legitimate review doesn't necessarily imply that I don't personally think testing on it as presented is impossible. As well, there are conceptual theories that cannot be tested where testing was tried, but failed due to a lack of validity.


GNS makes very specific predictions about and distinctions between each group. A survey could not find data that conforms with GNS predictions of the existence/prevalence of each group while asking questions based on those predictions/distinctions, if those groups do not exist.

By this do you mean if you don't ask the questions directed towards those groupings, you can't find results? Because that's not true. The big 5 personality test was validated because statistical analysis found 5 significant factors to personality. The creators did not presuppose 5 factors. You cannot make 3 factors then test to see if they exist, that's not valid testing. You can test people based on a variety of related topics, and analyze the results via correlation to get distinct clusters of results. Also note that this invariably results in a scale, and not extremes as the GNS theory posits.

Raum
2009-09-12, 10:51 PM
That seems a redundant requirement within the given sentence... I took it to mean 'consistent logical analysis.'No, it's not redundant at all. "Repeatedly" means you test more than once with different sources of data. "Objectively" means it's tested with no preconceptions in mind. Accomplishing both are why scientists have peers test theories.


GNS makes very specific predictions about and distinctions between each group. A survey could not find data that conforms with GNS predictions of the existence/prevalence of each group while asking questions based on those predictions/distinctions, if those groups do not exist. Blatantly incorrect. If what surveys reported must be true, then there are aliens with odd fetishes among us...and many other oddities. :smallwink: This is why you look for objectivity and repeatability when testing a hypothesis.


(For my own part, I think the WotC study results on the subject are definitely compatible with GNS predictions AND patently contradict their own conclusions on the subject, for reasons I've covered here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6874634&postcount=11). Heh, you didn't cover much there...just made one unsupported statement. Here, I'll quote it:
Thinkers/Powergamers are both pretty clearly Gamists, the only significant difference being in attention span. The Character Actor is a Simulationist, and the 'Storyteller' could be interpreted as either a Simulationist or Narrativist, depending on how they feel 'character development' should occur.Yet GNS still hasn't published any data which supports its premise. Nor shown how other data supports it.


Fundamental frictions between each demographic are very clearly in evidence there, and players without strong preferences are in a distinct minority. But it doesn't directly confirm GNS either, because I don't think it's asking the questions you need to distinguish Narrativists from Simulationists.)Ah so it comes down to limiting your questions to a zero sum solution between gamists, narrativists, and simulationists? But that's your premise! It's a circular argument. You can't test a hypothesis by limiting your questions to a subset of data!

Edit - Yukitsu's example shows why you test with objective data.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-12, 10:52 PM
There's an abundance of terminology and a great deal of rigour applied, it just requires actual study of the theory to grasp the former and appreciate the latter. There's no more difficulty with quantifiability than there is in psychology in general (though I'll freely admit a willing sponsor for a systematic GNS survey of RP preferences would not go amiss.)

He complained about a lack of clear terminology.

I think we all agree that GNS has terminology in abundance.

Samurai Jill
2009-09-12, 11:40 PM
Yet GNS still hasn't published any data which supports its premise...
No-one can afford to! I doubt there's a single indie publisher that has the kind of resources to organise a systematic survey of this kind! Who, exactly, is going to do it?

...just made one unsupported statement...
I am convinced that even slight attention to the definitions of each mode would make the basis of these divisions reasonably clear. Having expended many paragraphs on each, I really don't know what more I can do clarify things.

Secondly, the idea that you can analyse brute data without some idea of the theory you want to prove or disprove is untrue. My familiarity with the scientific process is limited, but I'm reasonably sure that's what Kuhn established. You need a paradigm in order to interpret things sensibly at all. WotC picked questions for that survey in advance, and they didn't just conjure them out of the aether. They were written by people, people with a very express commercial agenda. You can be damn sure there were preconceptions at work there, so it seems bizarre to level these kinds of criticisms at me and not at them. Let's be consistent here.

Yukitsu
2009-09-12, 11:42 PM
If you can get ANOVA, you can do it for free. Can't you access a university computer?

Also, yes, you do survey based on questions not related to the theory in specific. You base the questions on the topic. In personality research, they ask everything they can think of that relates to personality, but don't relate it to any particular model. That destroys the validity of the experiment.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-12, 11:54 PM
Secondly, the idea that you can analyse brute data without some idea of the theory you want to prove or disprove is untrue. My familiarity with the scientific process is limited, but I'm reasonably sure that's what Kuhn established.

Not at all. Yes, you can specifically design tests to disprove a theory once you have it, and doing so is good scientific work, but that's certainly not the only way to study a subject.

It's not at all uncommon for people to make discoveries they weren't even looking for in the process of doing science. Patterns emerge from the data of a well designed study, that's why studies are done. Pre-existing ideas of what the results will be are entirely unnecessary.

Fhaolan
2009-09-13, 12:41 AM
Pre-existing ideas of what the results will be are entirely unnecessary.

But they are common, especially in older studies. When I was in University... far, far too long ago... It was a requirement for studies to have a hypothesis that was being tested. However, the GNS theory in toto is too large of a mess to study it all at once at first. You'd need to break it up into smaller chunks, or go for higher-level hypotheses first. By breaking up the theory into testable segments, it can be made rigerous. It just hasn't been, to my knowledge.

And saying 'nobody can afford to' is nonsense. Research grants are given for the stupidest things you can image. One of my professors got a grant for studying the chemical changes on gin as it ages. Yes, that's right, he got a grant for being drunk. All you have to do is be suitably impressive in front of the review board (Reputation check modified by Charisma), the actual content of the study is pretty much irrelevant.

But then, I'm an old, cynical codger who's been through the system a few times. :smalltongue:

horseboy
2009-09-13, 02:41 AM
And saying 'nobody can afford to' is nonsense. Research grants are given for the stupidest things you can image. One of my professors got a grant for studying the chemical changes on gin as it ages. Yes, that's right, he got a grant for being drunk. All you have to do is be suitably impressive in front of the review board (Reputation check modified by Charisma), the actual content of the study is pretty much irrelevant.

But then, I'm an old, cynical codger who's been through the system a few times. :smalltongue:

They just gave out a grant to study the "hook up" patterns of freshmen girls at (I think it was) Ohio State. Yeah, somebody is getting payed to have sex with freshmen.

And Jill, it's what you can't believe in is called a "Double Blind" test. The people doing the actual study don't know the hypothesis to be tested, but instead give their impression of the data collected. Not at all that uncommon.

But hey, we don't even really need that. There's always marketing. I'm from Missouri, figuratively and literally. Show me the numbers. GNS theory has been around for 10 years. Part of it's tenants of faith include that it's self evidently superior thanks to "coherent design". After all only "Brain Damaged" people like incoherently designed games, right? Then non GNS devotes should be buying them. Okay, so you don't want to be compared to the big boys. Fine. Head over to RPGNow "The leading source for indie RPGs". Show me a GNS inspired game that actually has a medal award to it. Of course, creepy cult leader Ron Edwards probably doesn't allow his stuff to be sold by anyone but him, so no one will know just how poor sales are.

Chrono22
2009-09-13, 03:13 AM
God, you people get your panties in a bunch over the most trivial things.
It's just an observation that many players (consciously or otherwise) prioritize particular styles of play. The motivations of any individual can't ever be totally known, so of course saying a particular person plays G/N/S-like for X reason won't be a consistently reliable statement. Taken in a vacuum, no personal observation about any single person's behavior is ever more valid than any other personal observation. But as a group, people collectively exhibit certain behaviors, tastes, and inclinations. There is a reason some people prefer Whitewolf to DnD, or checkers to chess. Being able to distinguish these tastes is an important part of game design and marketing.
Obviously G-N-S aren't mutually exclusive- and the emotional state of an individual might change his play style as well. It's just that the each style comes from different ways of thinking. You claim that GNS is a false trichotomy. But it's not a trichotomy at all... no more than the roots, branches, and trunk of a tree are nonoverlapping parts.

Zombimode
2009-09-13, 03:30 AM
Anything you are making up on the spot, by definition, isn't emerging fully specified from the world's internal logic, by itself.

Can you show me the deduction your conclusion follows? Because I dont see it.

I (the DM) am the creator of the setting. What difference does it make, if a creation process occurs within playtime or out of playtime? Does the creation in play somehow prevent the emerge (hm, not sure if I can use this term as a noun, but you know what I mean, no?) from the settings internal logic?

Yora
2009-09-13, 04:06 AM
And Jill, it's what you can't believe in is called a "Double Blind" test. The people doing the actual study don't know the hypothesis to be tested, but instead give their impression of the data collected. Not at all that uncommon.
You'll hardly get any scientific recognition if you don't do it that way.

Starshade
2009-09-13, 05:05 AM
If i was good in statistical analysis id probably see if i could make some small test myself, hobby basis out of gaming forums such as these. What would needed to be done was of course comparing the results of different test groups, as from a GNS forum, a forum such as this (D&D heavy i think), storyteller based forums, such as on a Vampire RPG forum, and/or something as doing it on a forum representing the third group as well.

Comparing the simple survey from those groups, say equal numbers of D&D, Vampire and Gurps gamers, should show an simple difference in motivations and style of gameplay. For a published university test, shure its not good enugh, but for informal discussions and forum theorycrafting, it would probably do.
It also would need to be a bit clever, hiding the real questions it asks among control questions who is there to make shure the test gets quality data.

Kylarra
2009-09-13, 09:55 AM
Obviously G-N-S aren't mutually exclusive- and the emotional state of an individual might change his play style as well. It's just that the each style comes from different ways of thinking. You claim that GNS is a false trichotomy. But it's not a trichotomy at all... no more than the roots, branches, and trunk of a tree are nonoverlapping parts.To clarify, it is Samurai Jill who is proposing that GNS is a trichotomy. Several others are claiming that it is not, thus the statement that it is being presented as a false [dichotomy]/trichotomy.

Fhaolan
2009-09-13, 10:10 AM
You claim that GNS is a false trichotomy. But it's not a trichotomy at all... no more than the roots, branches, and trunk of a tree are nonoverlapping parts.

Errr... trichotomy in this context just means a three-way classification system. Since GNS is based on a three-way classification system, it *is* a trichotomy, by definition.

False trichotomy, like false dichotomy, means the classification system is incorrectly applying an 'either-or' decision process, and does not allow for the blending you mentioned in your post. Usually they also involve circular reasoning that does not acknowledge anything beyond their limited scope. According to GNS proponents in the GNS theory Simulationism, Gamism and Narrativism cannot co-exist because they are *defined* as being complete opposites. If it is proven that they can co-exist, the definitions therefore must be wrong, and need to be adjusted until they can't co-exist. This is circular reasoning.

A more generic term is 'the false dilemma', which allows for two, three, or more nodes of choice.

There's nothing really wrong with false dilemmas as a basis of discussion, which is how I have approached them here. However, portraying them as the Big Truth is, in my opinion, dishonest. This dishonesty may not be a conscious decision, as in most cases it's really a self-deception on the part of the proponent, but it's still dishonesty.

The really interesting thing I find about this whole discussion, is that this recently started in this forum as part of a Paladin discussion. Paladins are notorious for being forced into false dilemmas by DMs trying to make them fall, so it really does appear that GNS was brought into this forum as possibly the most complex form of false dilemma I've every seen used to make Paladins uncomfortable. :smallbiggrin:

Zombimode
2009-09-13, 10:34 AM
A more generic term is 'the false dilemma', which allows for two, three, or more nodes of choice.

Actually it does not. "Dilemma" is composed of "di" and "lemma".
If you call me nitpicky, that wasnt my idea. Thats exactly how it is used in sience.
For example, the philosophy of mind's main problem sturcture is the so called "Münchhausen-Trilemma".

Raum
2009-09-13, 11:37 AM
My familiarity with the scientific process is limitedFor centuries, natural 'science' used Observation followed by a Conclusion. Observation: "I see the sun cross the heavens daily." Conclusion: "The sun circles the earth." The problem of course is they stopped here. An obvious but superficial conclusion was all that was needed for belief.

The scientific method changes that to:
1. Make Observation.
2. Construct Hypothesis.
3. Test with Experiments and more Observation.
4. Compare Test's Data to Hypothesis for Accuracy.
- 4.a. If Hypothesis doesn't predict the data accurately, go back to step 2.
5. Report Results for peer review and analysis.

The basic premise of the scientific method might be colloquially phrased as "Don't trust your observations, test them."

Fhaolan
2009-09-13, 06:29 PM
Actually it does not. "Dilemma" is composed of "di" and "lemma".
If you call me nitpicky, that wasnt my idea. Thats exactly how it is used in sience.
For example, the philosophy of mind's main problem sturcture is the so called "Münchhausen-Trilemma".

Technically very true, and I admit that. :smallsmile: Unfortunately, I've seen 'false dilemma' used in to cover multi-node 'lemmas' in offical logic publications.

Basically, people got tired of contructing more silly words. :smalltongue:

Samurai Jill
2009-09-13, 08:41 PM
If you can get ANOVA, you can do it for free. Can't you access a university computer?
Me, personally? No. But I'll be happy to pass along the suggestion.

Also, yes, you do survey based on questions not related to the theory in specific. You base the questions on the topic. In personality research, they ask everything they can think of that relates to personality, but don't relate it to any particular model.
I have no objections on that front. ...I'd be curious to know what the full range of WotC questions were too.


...But hey, we don't even really need that. There's always marketing. I'm from Missouri, figuratively and literally. Show me the numbers...
People buy RPGs for a variety of reasons, and the actual system of rules can be waaaay down the list: likelihood of finding existing players and/or peer pressure, whether the elements of exploration excite them, quality of illustration, advertising, etc. I'm not saying system is unimportant, but there are plenty of things that can make an RPG not work even if doesn't have GNS conflicts embedded within it. And hey, D&D, the big daddy of the hobby, has already made the transition to solid Gamism, so I think that's a sign that the hobby is starting to adopt more coherent designs. It'll happen, just not overnight.

Samurai Jill
2009-09-13, 08:46 PM
According to GNS proponents in the GNS theory Simulationism, Gamism and Narrativism cannot co-exist because they are *defined* as being complete opposites.
Not complete opposites, it's just that each makes demands which, in application, tend to result in frictions which are either difficult or impossible to cleanly reconcile.

Anyways.

Y'know... I can't help but observe, among the respondents at large, that there's a sort of prevailing unwillingness to address the arguments of the initial post. If you think the theory is wrong, it would helpful to point out where in more specific terms. Thank you.

Yukitsu
2009-09-13, 09:06 PM
Y'know... I can't help but observe, among the respondents at large, that there's a sort of prevailing unwillingness to address the arguments of the initial post. If you think the theory is wrong, it would helpful to point out where in more specific terms. Thank you.

In specific;
The terminology is sketchy at best.
A) the terms are not consistent with the definitions found commonly in the English language.
B) they are not clearly defined. Where attempts at definition exist, vexingly long, circuitous definitions that are unclear persist.

There is no support for the theory.
A) it has been admitted that it has no particular backing beyond observation. There is no citation as to who's games these observations are made from.
B) while interesting, standard assumptions in the psychological field have been ignored. Specifically, that in normative psychology, people gravitate to a central position in scales, as opposed to antagonistic opposites when discussing trait theory.

The theory as presented cannot be objectively tested by those interested.
A) as is written and presented I do not believe that an objective, unbiased test could be created, nor could the data be objectively analyzed, because there will be a strong desire to conform to the confirmation biase.
B) at this point in time, it is unlikely that the individuals interested in this test would be impartial observers of a game if we are to repeat the observations made (this is on both sides of the fence.)

It's OK as speculation, but frankly, whenever someone says people fall neatly into one of three categories, instead of along a scale that moves freely between all categories, and tends to cluster in the center, people will question it on those grounds, because they are almost invariably wrong when discussing human nature.

Samurai Jill
2009-09-13, 09:17 PM
In specific;
The terminology is sketchy at best.
A) the terms are not consistent with the definitions found commonly in the English language....
This is nothing you haven't said before in the thread, and again, doesn't address the specific arguments of the OP.

It's OK as speculation, but frankly, whenever someone says people fall neatly into one of three categories...
For the umpteenth time, the theory doesn't claim that. It claims that people tend to have marked preferences for one of three- which is entirely likely given 'random placement' within the graph- which is enough to spark serious frictions when you mix people at random within a single group using a rule-set that pretends to cater to all of them. Each will latch on to whatever aspect of the rules most appeals to them, and quietly assume that others will/should do likewise, when they don't. Hilarity ensues, if you have an odd sense of humour.

Yukitsu
2009-09-13, 09:22 PM
This is nothing you haven't said before in the thread, and again, doesn't address the specific arguments of the OP.

It will go away when you can say "Narrativism: (insert one sentance summary here)"


For the umpteenth time, the theory doesn't claim that. It claims that people tend to have marked preferences for one of three- which is entirely likely given 'random placement' within the graph- which is enough to spark serious frictions when you mix people at random within a single group using a rule-set that pretends to cater to all of them. Each will latch on to whatever aspect of the rules most appeals to them

Yeah, this is what I'm getting at. That's as sketchy as a psychologist saying "People tend towards musical intelligence, but at the exclusion of mathematical intelligence." People usually don't work in that manner. Most people have a diverse set of preferences, rather than a single overarching "thing" that defines how they have fun.


and quietly assume that others will/should do likewise, when they don't. Hilarity ensues, if you have an odd sense of humour.

This observation, in theory, should only hold when individuals have universally low emotional intelligence scores. Most people know how to accomodate other people's viewpoints after the age of 4 or so.

Raum
2009-09-13, 09:23 PM
Y'know... I can't help but observe, among the respondents at large, that there's a sort of prevailing unwillingness to address the arguments of the initial post. If you think the theory is wrong, it would helpful to point out where in more specific terms. Several have. I'll list a few of the specifics again. GNS makes claims based on superficial observations with no objective or repeatable testing.
Most statements of "fact" made by GNS are left unsupported, as if they should be accepted as a priori knowledge.
No trichotomy of gamer style or gaming goals has been shown. In fact, data has shown five differing divisions.
Nothing has been shown to make differing gaming goals exclusive or zero sum. Again, data shows common desires for certain elements across types of gamers.


Thank you.You're welcome.

Diamondeye
2009-09-13, 09:32 PM
You really didn't address his cricticisms, however.

Moreover, claiming that players will have a "marked preference" for one of the 3 sections of the theory and that conflict will ensue if they differ with each other is only a marginal improvement over "they fit neatly into 1 of the 3". Just because it would resemble random placement on a graph doesn't give it any legitimacy, since on many graphs people are not evenly or randomly spread.

It also fails to account for ability of people to accomadate one another as pointed out above.

Finally, there is still the problem of parsimony. The theory imposes baggage on the "narrativism" portion, which in turn puts elements of play having nothing to do with each other under the part pertinent here, "simulationism".

Until its addressed why narritivism is described as only being where the players write the story with the DM with something other than "because the theory says so" it's impossible to move on to simulationism, because that's where all the story-oriented-but-not-player-created-parts get shoved, for no apparent reason other than to accomadate Edwards's emotional baggage.

So far all we've seen is an argument that if the DM makes the antagonist do anything to thwart the PCs, it's "taking away their freedom" and "not narritivist". Why, precisely, the protagonist must have absolute freedom in order to produce narrative or drama is a mystery.

Harr
2009-09-13, 09:54 PM
This whole thing reminds me of an XKCD strip. (http://xkcd.com/169/)

That sums up just about every reaction I've had in over six years of reading and hearing about GNS "theory". Thanks :smallbiggrin:

Fiery Diamond
2009-09-13, 10:22 PM
You know, Samurai, you might as well give up. The same people are following you from thread to thread on GNS because we all have valid reasons for extreme doubts and zero reasons for believing in the theory. Don't ask me what the valid reasons are, as others have said them here and elsewhere many, many times and it would be pointless of me to reiterate.

Diamondeye, will you be my buddy? After all, we both have Diamond in our name! And I have been impressed with your eloquence on these threads.

Diamondeye
2009-09-13, 10:44 PM
You know, Samurai, you might as well give up. The same people are following you from thread to thread on GNS because we all have valid reasons for extreme doubts and zero reasons for believing in the theory. Don't ask me what the valid reasons are, as others have said them here and elsewhere many, many times and it would be pointless of me to reiterate.

Diamondeye, will you be my buddy? After all, we both have Diamond in our name! And I have been impressed with your eloquence on these threads.

Sure! thanks!

Kalirren
2009-09-14, 11:26 AM
I think it does correlate well with my own habits in play, since I tend to view spontaneous improvisations to the setting by the GM with a kind of suspicion. I would guess... because it's harder to rule out ulterior motives.

Well, as both a player and a moderator, I would view any -player- decision with the same degree of suspicion. I mean, when I listen to a player say "I light the building on fire," even if it's situationally appropriate, there's a suspicion flag that goes up in my head in the same way. I think, "What's he doing? Is he powergaming? Is he shooting for an obscure PrC with a requirement to burn a building? Is he trying to establish a precedent for his character concept?" It's entirely possible that he hasn't preplanned anything, and doesn't intend for this to be a pattern. It's entirely possible that he hasn't preplanned anything but is open to the possibility of it emerging as a character trait. And it's entirely possible that he's decided beforehand that his character is going to be a pyromaniac without telling us, and that's not necessarily bad, either. Ultimately, those decisions are firmly within his purview to make, and I will never know, nor do I have cause to inquire, whether or not he's doing the things he does for an in-game reason or a meta-game reason or both.

So I can envision the same suspicion of GM decisions about setting, but my reaction would be analogous to that which I've described and different from yours; the suspicion of "why is he doing this? did he pre-plan this?" is really just unanswerable, and eventually superseded by the recognition of "well, it's his decision to make." In the same way as it was with the player, there's really no way of knowing whether or not anything was preplanned, so it's not worth asking. In my experience it's only when a GM makes a long-term habit and pattern of making metaworld and suspiciously purposeful decisions that I tend to feel like he's using unsuitable Force.

Pursuant to these comments I'd to ask you if you view an asymmetry between the position of player and the position of moderator on the social level. For the record, I don't, but I'm interested in what you have to say. I'd also like to know if what we've covered so far matches your perceptions of the habits of the people you have played with, not just yourself.



(Of course, G and N play, in essence, ARE ulterior motives...

Agreed. I'm glad you see the OOC hidden dimensions of the Edwardsian Creative Agendas. Edwards' conception of an effective social contract seems to contain an extra hidden assumption that I find not to be the case in general - that the players will/ought to naturally collapse onto a single set of desires and expectations for what they want out of a game. That doesn't bear out in practice in my experience.

One of the reasons why I think that there are so many games and so many systems that Edwards is forced by his own trichotomy to categorize as Light Simulationism is that when a group minimizes OOC hidden agenda in efforts to accommodate players who have diverse OOC agendas, their resolution mechanisms naturally converge upon chance and the determination of in-world circumstance. (I'm avoiding Edwards' DKF breakdown because I don't think it's a good one. I'd accept Drama, Skill, Circumstance, Fortune.) It isn't so much an active quest for grittiness, but rather a desire to avoid hidden agenda conflict that leads to this common ground.


(... hence the incompatibility, but anyways.)


I couldn't agree. If you're suggesting that ulterior motives are the root of supposed GNS incompatibility, I would have to respond that many different ulterior motives, of GNS varieties and more, can be multifaceted, layered, and held simultaneously by any given player. And no one at the table besides the player who holds them may even know that they're there, so even if they -are- there they don't necessarily impinge on the game too much.



But, more than that, I think it's a question of definitions- Anything you are making up on the spot, by definition, isn't emerging fully specified from the world's internal logic, by itself. I think that's what distinguishes the demand for accuracy from the demand for plausibility. Even if it's not a hard line, there is a separation there.

Well, I agree with you, and this is one of the places where I think Edwards is being very unfair to Simulationist play. I don't think he separates verisimilitude/accuracy from plausibility very well in his writing. He talks about the Right to Dream and the pocket universe world-in-a-box, but he takes the idea in his discourse to an extent which any real "Simulationist" (and I don't mean a "pure Simulationist", but a real one) would describe as an incredible waste of time. To talk inside the GNS model for a moment, Simulationism, unlike Narrativism or Gamism, is a workable CA only in moderation, and Edwards' extreme-seeking naturally handles this poorly. In practice, I've found that most "Simulationist" games are only concerned about plausibility, not about accuracy, and the notion of plausibility is ultimately a metaworld notion. The degree, extent, and type of accuracy demanded by the players is ultimately a parameter of the social contract, so arguably it's even metagame.

It's important to realize that the IC world is an imaginary construct even to a strong Simulationist. It probably doesn't even have physical laws (ours sometimes do, but I game with science nerds.) So there's really no such thing as the world's "internal logic" - all there exists is a player notion of plausibility, subject to check and balance by the OOC player stances and dynamic. You really are making it up on the spot, and the issue isn't about "whether or not the world's (non-existent) internal logic produced it" - really, you produced it all, every bit of it - it's whether or not it all fits together.

So in this way, I solidly disagree with Edwards. Simulationist play doesn't really fit into the framework of planning that would lead to "in-game cause" equating to "pre-established cause". Most of the Simulationist play I've done is more accretionary than laid-out. A world detail finds its place as it becomes relevant, and is integrated into the whole world in as coherent of a manner as people are willing to spend time on it.