Are improved familiars worthwhile?

[Zaydos]

I've always liked the concept of an improved familiar, but without the effective bonus feat granted by having a normal familiar and the use of a feat to get them are they actually worth having?

In one game I played there was an arcane-hierophant Lv 8 with a wolf familiar-companion and a sorcerer Lv 8 with a worg familiar and even using enhance familiar on it the worg was only barely better than the wolf at that level and in one more level it would be worse permanently. I know that an animal companion is always rather strong but by mid-high levels there didn't seem to be any familiar that would even add to combat.

So any opinions please?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Imps are useful, but not for combat.

[PinkysBrain]

Sending out your familiar into melee combat (ignoring polymorph/shapechange) is like wrapping your XP in bacon and serving it for the monster on a platter.

[Telonius]

Do it for RP reasons if you do it at all. A very old Sorcerer character of mine had a Pseudodragon familiar that was interesting for out-of-combat things. Adorable telepathic almost-dragon? Awwww! Especially when the other caster in the group took a Tressym as a familiar.

The only semi-useful thing he could do in combat was fly and use Blindsense.

[lsfreak]

Imps are useful, but not for combat.

They have some combat use. Imbue with spell ability plus a wand of scorching ray or seeking ray, or have an ally ToB character ready a strike for when the imp gets in flanking (which it does and then promptly gets the hell out of there; tumble should be high enough that it can almost always make the check and if you're worried you just don't use that part).

[robgrayert]

If they fit your character concept and you can manage to find uses for them, they're much more versatile than a standard familiar.

[Bayar]

Imps are useful, but not for combat.

If you take ranks in UMD, the imp could play as your mobile sentry with wands of seeking ray/scorching ray/blasy spell of your choice. Or he could use those items that you cannot use because you banned a particular school.

[Jair Barik]

Iys like making a Homonculus. At the level your going to have it all that will be accomplished by sending it into battle is that you will end up getting hurt. It's more a matter of realisticly what high level wizard is going to clean up his own mess and fetch resources from the local town, none, rather than do that small amount of extra work every day the wizard spends time and resources to create life out of nothing to do his laundrey for him

[Kylarra]

I don't think it's the most optimal feat to take, but that said, some of them are pretty cool. . . like the pseudodragon.

[Myrmex]

Sending out your familiar into melee combat (ignoring polymorph/shapechange) is like wrapping your XP in bacon and serving it for the monster on a platter.

Even with polymorph/shapechage, you're still asking to lose your familiar. Half of your hit points is hilariously few.

[RagnaroksChosen]

it aslo depends on how your getting it.

Imprved familair is awsome for:
Duskblades(dependins on the familar)
Hexblades (o god)
Bards actualy
dread necro

Most of the time they are not good for
Wizards (only reasons are rp or specific builds)
Sorcerers
Wujen
spell thieves( unsure of this on though i've never heard of any one taking it)

[Eldariel]

They're awesome! They have all your skills (ever played an Unseen Seer? They're ridiculously strong) and basically double as an automatic +2 to all your skill checks with Aid Another. They also kick ass UMD-wise, and many of them (Pseudodragon, Imp, Quasit) have great special qualities and can even be used in combat provided you pump them with enough Temp HP.

[jiriku]

With a careful design, an improved familiar can make an effective monstrous mount for a gish build. The hitpoint shortage can be relieved by using share spells to share false life with it or have the cleric cast mass aid or hero's feast. Since you'll be in contact with your mount throughout combat, you can share all manner of self-buff spells with it so that it gains the benefit of all the wizard spells you're normally using to make yourself so hard to kill.

Edit: not to say that's optimal or anything. But you could do it, and it would work.

[RagnaroksChosen]

With a careful design, an improved familiar can make an effective monstrous mount for a gish build. The hitpoint shortage can be relieved by using share spells to share false life with it or have the cleric cast mass aid or hero's feast. Since you'll be in contact with your mount throughout combat, you can share all manner of self-buff spells with it so that it gains the benefit of all the wizard spells you're normally using to make yourself so hard to kill.

Edit: not to say that's optimal or anything. But you could do it, and it would work.

I wonder about the interaction between false life and a familair

Would the familiar gain half of what false life gave to you ontop of the amount falselife gave to it?

[Zaq]

I've played a Spellthief with an Imp familiar before. It's ridiculously worth it for that kind of character. Being able to either have a guaranteed Aid Another or actually having two characters rolling for nearly every skill check you make is brilliant (you can sort of do this with a normal familiar, but it's really convenient if your buddy has hands). If you give them some good defenses, they're also a guaranteed flanking buddy, especially if you dip Swordsage like I did to get Island of Blades. Some of the Exalted familiars are also pretty interesting, if you're already capital-G Good. Also, spellthieves LOVE it when they have familiars with at-will SLAs for them to borrow. Just sayin'.

For a wizard or sorcerer, I'm not sure how worth it it would be. A normal familiar can still use Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability just fine and can still give you most of the benefits of an improved familiar.

[Sinfire Titan]

Sending out your familiar into melee combat (ignoring polymorph/shapechange) is like wrapping your XP in bacon and serving it for the monster on a platter.

Why do people keep saying this? 4 spells is enough to turn your familiar into a combat house (even 1 spell, such as Shapechange or Form of Unyielding Death, works). It isn't that hard to make them viable. You just need to remember that many spell effects that aren't that powerful on you are very potent on an Outsider, Elemental, Dragon, or Magical Beast.



Most of the time they are not good for
Wizards (only reasons are rp or specific builds)

Fact: Wizards have more spells that have a Touch or Personal Range than most other classes (even the Sorcerer, if you want to get technical about it). This means the Share Spell feature of a Wizard's familiar is more powerful than the one the Duskblade has. Or anyone else for that matter.

Again, 3-4 spells a day will suffice. At the lowest levels, Familiars are mediocre. By the time you can afford an Earth or Air Elemental for a Familiar, you are bound to have enough spell slots to spare.

Worth noting is that Improved Familiar does not function like a Druid's Animal Companion; selecting higher-level familiars does not weaken the abilities they get in the least. An Imp who is the familiar for a 7th level Wizard is going to have all of the abilities that a Mouse familiar of a 7th level Wizard has.

[PinkysBrain]

I did say ignoring polymorph/shapechange. For polymorph/shapechange spells it reallu doesn't matter whether you have a normal or improved familiar either.

[Sinfire Titan]

I did say ignoring polymorph/shapechange. For polymorph/shapechange spells it reallu doesn't matter whether you have a normal or improved familiar either.

It actually does matter for everything but Shapechange and spells like Body of War, as your familiar's creature type determines what it can polymorph into for almost every other spell.

[1dominator]

From what I know, which is little, they have their uses. I mean the UMD alone is quite handy since they can now use wands and whatnot.

By the way since someone mentioned the dread necro earlier, you wouldnt happen to know what book the class is in?

[IthilanorStPete]

Dread Necromancer's in Heroes of Horror.

[RagnaroksChosen]

It actually does matter for everything but Shapechange and spells like Body of War, as your familiar's creature type determines what it can polymorph into for almost every other spell.

SRD

The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.

So it doesn't resaly matter you could turn him into any one of the above types or his type... which is magical beast because familars turn into magical beasts i belive.

[The Glyphstone]

SRD


So it doesn't resaly matter you could turn him into any one of the above types or his type... which is magical beast because familars turn into magical beasts i belive.

Improved Familiars retain their creature type. Only normal, animal familiars become Magical Beasts.

Note that the above list does not include Outsiders or Elementals?

[Animefunkmaster]

Lets not forget that alter self not only makes you, but your familiar awesome.

[Myrmex]

They're awesome! They have all your skills (ever played an Unseen Seer? They're ridiculously strong) and basically double as an automatic +2 to all your skill checks with Aid Another. They also kick ass UMD-wise, and many of them (Pseudodragon, Imp, Quasit) have great special qualities and can even be used in combat provided you pump them with enough Temp HP.

Familiars with hands- yes. Most improved familiars aren't spectauclar. Other than the three mentioned above, the mephits are good. Especially the one that gets a glitterdust Sp. The problem with most improved familiars is their size- you can't conveniently make them disappear (or does familiar pocket work on a worg?)

[Thurbane]

I forgot about the part where familiars can use your skills - sounds like Obtain Familiar might be a decent feat for a Beguiler. And for a Duskblade, you could snag yourself a flying mount from Complete Warrior (although, it would cost 2 feats).