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Heliomance
2009-09-11, 01:49 PM
This is a thread specifically to ask questions of the D&D world using real-life science. Some things may break in amusing ways. To start:


The elemental plane of water has subjective gravity. For the purposes of any inanimate object, this is effectively zero gravity. Water is an inanimate object. Thus, water pressure will be (approximately) constant throughout the plane. As pressure is not a planar hazard, and it is possible to survive there quite nicely asuming you can breathe water, we can assume that the water pressure there is far lower than it is at the seabed. Thus, a gate to the elemental plane of water at the ocean floor would actually result in water following the pressure gradient and flowing from the ocean into the plane, lowering the sea level rather than raising it.

If someone who knows more hydrostatics than I do would like to run the calculations and come up with an approximate figure for the pressure on the plane of water, it would be quite interesting.

Yora
2009-09-11, 01:58 PM
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9851/74604godkillscatgirl.gif

I agree with the draining the lake interpretation.
For simplicitys sake, I'd say plane of water is 1 bar.

BUT! The plane of Air is also plane of non-solid matter. And there is wind. And wind is created by pressure differences between two locations. So the plane of air is not completely homogenous.
As a result, the plane of water also does not have to be, and I think currents are actually a good idea to sustain an eco-system. And if there are areas with warmer water for tropical fish, and colder water for arctic fish, there would be differences in preasure. And if you have it, it could be quite substential.
So my final answer to that is, that it depends on the precise location of the plane of water side of the gate.

Kris Strife
2009-09-11, 02:00 PM
Is it bad that all I thought when I saw the title was: Again?

Also, what anime is that clip from?

Myou
2009-09-11, 02:03 PM
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9851/74604godkillscatgirl.gif

I agree with the draining the lake interpretation.

That's why we're doing this! To rid the internet of annoying hentai characters! D:<

Yora
2009-09-11, 02:04 PM
I have no idea. I just remembered it and googled "God kills a catgirl". :smallbiggrin:

I don't think I've ever watched an anime that had catgirls. ^^

shadzar
2009-09-11, 02:09 PM
Is it bad that all I thought when I saw the title was: Again?

Also, what anime is that clip from?

These are the part of the Catgirl Maid Squadron, under Ms Sanada, Head of the maids for the Valhallan Royal Family.

The grils used to be Aiko, Keiko, Yuuko and Eiko, before Sanada used her transformation ray on them and many others to turn them into catgirls.

These were the 4 that Kazuto ran into when Sanada thought he was two-timing Valkyrie, and the first ones turned into catgirls, to control them to prevent Kazuto form going out with them when he is engaged to the princess Valkyrie.


UFO Ultramaiden Valkyrie

Kris Strife
2009-09-11, 02:15 PM
These are the part of the Catgirl Maid Squadron, under Ms Sanada, Head of the maids for the Valhallan Royal Family.

The grils used to be Aiko, Keiko, Yuuko and Eiko, before Sanada used her transformation ray on them and many others to turn them into catgirls.

These were the 4 that Kazuto ran into when Sanada thought he was two-timing Valkyrie, and the first ones turned into catgirls, to control them to prevent Kazuto form going out with them when he is engaged to the princess Valkyrie.


UFO Ultramaiden Valkyrie

This is surprisingly awesome. Is the series any good?

Guancyto
2009-09-11, 02:16 PM
Shadzar, I can't believe you know that.

Just tell me you weren't a fan of the series. :smalleek:

Yora: go watch Outlaw Star for non-annoying catgirls. Or Dominion Tank Police. :smallwink:

Grumman
2009-09-11, 02:18 PM
As water is nearly incompressible, the change in water level would probably be quite slow. Even if you opened the gate at a depth of ~4-5 kilometers, the pressure would only be enough to fit another ~2% into a given volume. The main limiting factor would probably be the rate at which the "bubble" of 102% compressed water on the Plane of Water side could dissipate, which in turn is limited by the speed of sound.

Someone who has actually studied fluid dynamics should be able to expand on this.

Bayar
2009-09-11, 02:19 PM
That's why we're doing this! To rid the internet of annoying hentai characters! D:<

Catgirls are not all hentai characters.

Edited: sorry...kinda sensitive about those kinds of things

Guancyto
2009-09-11, 02:20 PM
I'm 99.999324% certain that was a joke...

Tatsel_Ganav
2009-09-11, 02:25 PM
lolcatsgirlz!

Can she has a mouse?

Myou
2009-09-11, 02:28 PM
How about going on another place before being racist. Catgirls are not all hentai characters.

....

What? :smallconfused:

Yora
2009-09-11, 02:33 PM
Shadzar, I can't believe you know that.

Just tell me you weren't a fan of the series. :smalleek:

Yora: go watch Outlaw Star for non-annoying catgirls. Or Dominion Tank Police. :smallwink:

Isn't Tank Police the wacky old work of Shiro? :smallyuk:

Sipex
2009-09-11, 02:37 PM
Catgirls are not all hentai characters.

Edited: sorry...kinda sensitive about those kinds of things

What are you talking about? We've got a cat-girl in my campaign and so far her biggest definining moment is when she betrayed the party while having sex with the party rogue.

Alavar
2009-09-11, 02:39 PM
Even if the first quote is correct, perhaps the plane has semi-sentience, and exerts its own influence on particular sections of water as to gravity or random denizens affect it. I can see some random ocean-dwelling race to have set up a fan of some sort that creates a current for them to swim in, and its their daily workout. :smallwink: I would bet that they wouldn't particularly care about how it affects the surrounding area.

Anyway, what about ways to get around the lack of gravity and therefore pressure on the water near the gate? I say create a wall of iron such that its larger flat surface is lying parallel to the gate, then stand on the side of the wall opposite to the gate, and direct gravity downwards. Even if most of the water fails to go through the gate due to the higher pressure, some would go through. Hmm...I wonder if the "gravity" created can be stronger than normal.

Johel
2009-09-11, 02:39 PM
What are you talking about? We've got a cat-girl in my campaign and so far her biggest definining moment is when she betrayed the party while having sex with the party rogue.

She did both at the same time ?
The betrayal must have been painful for the poor rogue :smallamused:

Mando Knight
2009-09-11, 02:39 PM
Well, obviously you're going to drain the lake. When you cut a hole in the bottom of a pitcher full of water and let it float on top of the ocean, does it overflow? No. But if you cut a hole in the side of a submerged submarine and put a pitcher of water under the hole, it's gonna fill fast.

Myou
2009-09-11, 02:39 PM
Edited: sorry...kinda sensitive about those kinds of things

What things? Jokes?


What are you talking about? We've got a cat-girl in my campaign and so far her biggest definining moment is when she betrayed the party while having sex with the party rogue.

See! See! I knew it! It's a prostitute conspiracy! They must have some obscure prestige class! :smalleek:

Sipex
2009-09-11, 02:43 PM
She did both at the same time ?
The betrayal must have been painful for the poor rogue :smallamused:

You could say he was caught with his pants down.

Yora
2009-09-11, 02:43 PM
Well, obviously you're going to drain the lake. When you cut a hole in the bottom of a pitcher full of water and let it float on top of the ocean, does it overflow? No. But if you cut a hole in the side of a submerged submarine and put a pitcher of water under the hole, it's gonna fill fast.
Because of differences in water pressure. The pressure is the important factor, not the amount of water on each side.
And some of us argue, that the pressure on the plane of water is lower than on the bottom of a lake. Because a lake has gravity, and the plane of water has not.

Jair Barik
2009-09-11, 02:48 PM
The more pressing issue is that if you open a gate into the Elemental Plane of fire how quickly would it use up the worlds oxygen supply?

Sipex
2009-09-11, 02:49 PM
To be specific the party was wanted for reasons I won't get into and she had been hired by the mayor at the time to infiltrate the party and tear them apart from the inside (she's a player but the group is fine with some internal betrayal stuff, they're all pretty nice to each other). She starts the day by sending a note to the nearest guard post saying "Infamous bandit <rogue's name> was spotted <location> yesterday. Check it out" then she lures the rogue there and keeps him there by...well, you know the rest.

shadzar
2009-09-11, 02:53 PM
Kris Strife:

Yes the series is good, until it goes into Valkyrie Ghost arc....then it just dies.

Shadzar, I can't believe you know that.

Just tell me you weren't a fan of the series. :smalleek:

Yora: go watch Outlaw Star for non-annoying catgirls. Or Dominion Tank Police. :smallwink:

:smallconfused: Yes I am a fan of Valkyrie. Don't make me lock you in a room with Chorus. :smallfurious:

As for non-annoying catgirls...You are out of your freaking mind! The puma-sisters are cute but VERY annoying, and saw were the the Katar-Katar (sp) clan!

You want non-annoying cat-girls you need to look to Nuku-Nuku...the All-Purpose Catgirl. :smallwink:

Mando Knight
2009-09-11, 02:55 PM
Because of differences in water pressure. The pressure is the important factor, not the amount of water on each side.

Yes. Fill a bowl with water, suspend it on top of a large body of water, and then cut a hole in the bottom of the bowl. The water will flow out of the bowl and into the body of water, despite the lower amount of water inside the bowl. Now replace "bowl of water" with "ocean" and "hole in the bottom of the bowl, connecting it to an adjacent, larger body of water" with "gate to the elemental plane of water." Exact same thing happens, just on a larger scale

Thus, if you want to flood a material plane, you have to place the gate where the local surface pressure of the water on the gate is higher than that of the local surface pressure of the target material plane on the gate, like on a mountain cliff. Water will then flow through the gate at a rate proportional to the pressure difference between the two planes until the gate closes.

Yora
2009-09-11, 03:03 PM
Yes. Fill a bowl with water, suspend it on top of a large body of water, and then cut a hole in the bottom of the bowl. The water will flow out of the bowl and into the body of water, despite the lower amount of water inside the bowl. Now replace "bowl of water" with "ocean" and "hole in the bottom of the bowl, connecting it to an adjacent, larger body of water" with "gate to the elemental plane of water." Exact same thing happens, just on a larger scale
I'm pretty sure this doesn't work that way! ^^
The bowl fills because the bowl sinks down in the water. If the lake is like water in a bowl, that would make the planet the bowl, and the planet would have to float on the surface of the plane of water.
And by default, the material plane does not consist of planets floating on the plane of waters surface. ^^


Thus, if you want to flood a material plane, you have to place the gate where the local surface pressure of the water on the gate is higher than that of the local surface pressure of the target material plane on the gate, like on a mountain cliff. Water will then flow through the gate at a rate proportional to the pressure difference between the two planes until the gate closes.
That, of course, would work with any water pressure on the plane of water.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-11, 03:06 PM
YAY! A catgirl-slaying thread! It's been too long since we had our last one. An internet goes to Heliomace!



Thus, a gate to the elemental plane of water at the ocean floor would actually result in water following the pressure gradient and flowing from the ocean into the plane, lowering the sea level rather than raising it.

If someone who knows more hydrostatics than I do would like to run the calculations and come up with an approximate figure for the pressure on the plane of water, it would be quite interesting.


I've never done much with hydrostatics, but I found this site (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/pflu.html) on static water pressure. It would seem that the pressure of the Elemental plane of water is Zero. However, someone should check this for me. I'm not certain I'm using the right formula.


Btw, for anyone interested, here are some links to past bouts of Physics silliness:
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94044)
And Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2010735#post2010735)

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 03:07 PM
The plane of water is held together by magical forces. It cannot be run by real world physics.

Why?

Without gravity, the water will have the same pressure as a vacuum. If you open a swimming pool to vaccuum, it will boil.

Since the plane of water isnt boiling, it cannot follow our physics.

Yora
2009-09-11, 03:13 PM
That would be the case if the plane of water were an infinite sized space holding a finite amount of water.
But if the amount of water is also infinite, the water pressure could be anything.

Megatron46
2009-09-11, 03:15 PM
What is it with Catgirls? I don't really watch/like anime/manga, but there are a lot of pictures of them out there?

I mean, how do they exist? Do other people not notice that they have ears and a tail?

It just confuses me!

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 03:16 PM
That would be the case if the plane of water were an infinite sized space holding a finite amount of water.
But if the amount of water is also infinite, the water pressure could be anything.

Well yes, but in that case you still cant follow the rules of our universe. Try using gauss's law for gravity in an infinite massive medium. You find that inside whatever gaussian surface you make, you have an enclosed mass, so there should be net gravity. But by symmetry, the gravity has to be uniformly 0.

Grumman
2009-09-11, 03:18 PM
What is it with Catgirls? I don't really watch/like anime/manga, but there are a lot of pictures of them out there?

I mean, how do they exist? Do other people not notice that they have ears and a tail?
They do? Why does nobody tell me these things?!

Kidding!

Yora
2009-09-11, 03:26 PM
Well yes, but in that case you still cant follow the rules of our universe. Try using gauss's law for gravity in an infinite massive medium. You find that inside whatever gaussian surface you make, you have an enclosed mass, so there should be net gravity. But by symmetry, the gravity has to be uniformly 0.
But can't you still keep a liquid or gas under pressure in zero gravity? The missions to the moon had some travel through almost vacuum, but the air inside the capsule remaind breathable during the flight and did not disperse into a vacuum.

Myou
2009-09-11, 03:28 PM
What is it with Catgirls? I don't really watch/like anime/manga, but there are a lot of pictures of them out there?

I mean, how do they exist? Do other people not notice that they have ears and a tail?

It just confuses me!

Same principle as no-one noticing that Clark Kent is Superman.

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 03:29 PM
But can't you still keep a liquid or gas under pressure in zero gravity? The missions to the moon had some travel through almost vacuum, but the air inside the capsule remaind breathable during the flight and did not disperse into a vacuum.

Yeah, because the capsule was airtight. I suppose you could have a container of water, but that begs the question: "What happens if someone pierces the container"

You also might be able to use topological shenanngians to have the plane wrap around itself. But alas, I dont have the GR knowledge to determine what happens then.

Yora
2009-09-11, 03:32 PM
What is it with Catgirls? I don't really watch/like anime/manga, but there are a lot of pictures of them out there?

I mean, how do they exist? Do other people not notice that they have ears and a tail?

It just confuses me!
This is the strange world of non hard sci fi anime... :smallbiggrin:
Many don't even pretend to take place in the real world. Like alternate history, but it's just alternate "physicality?". Like X-Men. All as the real world, except for one or two little exceptions.

And I think in all the other cases, you're not supposed to believe that things are happening as they look. When they get a huge hammer out of nowhere and splatter each others brain over half the wall, it's supposed to mean "she looked at him sternly". It's like visual poetry. :smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight
2009-09-11, 03:33 PM
But can't you still keep a liquid or gas under pressure in zero gravity? The missions to the moon had some travel through almost vacuum, but the air inside the capsule remaind breathable during the flight and did not disperse into a vacuum.

Yep. Fluid pressure under negligible gravity is a function of fluid density and temperature. Increasing the pressure in a fluid is simply a matter of forcing the mass of fluid to take a specific volume and temperature. An infinite plane of water with negligible gravity acting on the water would have a constant mean pressure based on the planar values for the water density and temperature, with local pressures based on local values, generally influenced by living beings, interplanar gates, etc.

Yora
2009-09-11, 03:34 PM
Yeah, because the capsule was airtight. I suppose you could have a container of water, but that begs the question: "What happens if someone pierces the container"
If the pressure outside is greater, it all spills out. If it is larger, additional water enters.
But the idea of an infinite space with an infinite amount of water is far to advanced for me. I gues my personal understanding of physics has about the same scope as that of Archimedes. ^^

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 03:37 PM
the pressure of a gas is given (to first order), by the ideal gas equation. PV=nkT (as an aside, I think the coolest form of this is PVB=1, where V is the molar volume and B is 1/kT).

The pressure of an (incompressible) liquid is equal to the pressure imposed on it.

Mando Knight
2009-09-11, 03:47 PM
The pressure of an (incompressible) liquid is equal to the pressure imposed on it.

However, no real fluid is truly incompressible, so it does have its own pressure that is a function of its temperature and density, but it's not P=ρRT... it's a different, more complex function that I don't really feel like looking for, and can be approximated as an ideal gas at low densities and relatively high temperatures. Both ρ and T will vary to fit the actual equation based on a pressure exerted on the system, and a given ρ and T will output a specific pressure that corresponds with those conditions.

Basically, in the absence of gravity constants and finite planar dimensions, the elemental plane of water must be considered to have a constant mean planar pressure, density, and temperature, with localized disturbances. For ease of calculations, I'd recommend a mean pressure of 101.325 kPa, mean temperature of 300 K, and mean density of 1000.0 kg/(m^3).

Yora
2009-09-11, 03:52 PM
Someone mentioned opening a portal to the plane of fire. Here are my thought:

Just making stuff up as I'm typing, I would guess that elemental fire is similiar to a gas consisting mostly of very hot carbon. Supposed the pressure is equal to that of a blacksmiths forge at sea level, it would be higher than normal air pressure. As a result flames would shot from the portal and heat up the atmosphere.
Probably until the atmosphere reaches a temperature of about 1000°C. Unless the planet can release more heat into space than the portal can add to the earths normal energy input from the sun.

If you put the portal inside a star, the star would be sucked through it. Given that the plane of fire is infinite, it wouldn't even affect local pressure.
The first part could be a good idea for an illithid plan. :smallbiggrin:

Primal Fury
2009-09-11, 03:53 PM
Same principle as no-one noticing that Clark Kent is Superman.

...Glasses and Super Hypnosis? :smallconfused:

Kris Strife
2009-09-11, 04:05 PM
...Glasses and Super Hypnosis? :smallconfused:

The power of plot and pulling powers out your backside! Huzzah for the Silver Age of comics! :smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight
2009-09-11, 04:10 PM
Someone mentioned opening a portal to the plane of fire. Here are my thought:

Just making stuff up as I'm typing, I would guess that elemental fire is similiar to a gas consisting mostly of very hot carbon. Supposed the pressure is equal to that of a blacksmiths forge at sea level, it would be higher than normal air pressure. As a result flames would shot from the portal and heat up the atmosphere.
Probably until the atmosphere reaches a temperature of about 1000°C. Unless the planet can release more heat into space than the portal can add to the earths normal energy input from the sun.

If you put the portal inside a star, the star would be sucked through it. Given that the plane of fire is infinite, it wouldn't even affect local pressure.
The first part could be a good idea for an illithid plan. :smallbiggrin:

Fire is thermal and radiant energy that results from violent redox reactions. That's what the plane of fire is: A paradox of constant energy release without actual reactions from the plane's native material. Everything instantly ignites due to the energy flux, but the total energy of the plane never increases since it's an infinite plane with infinite total energy. Like the plane of water, it probably has an arbitrary constant mean temperature... but around 1300 K rather than 300 K.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-11, 04:20 PM
The plane of water is held together by magical forces. It cannot be run by real world physics.

Why?

Without gravity, the water will have the same pressure as a vacuum. If you open a swimming pool to vaccuum, it will boil.

Since the plane of water isnt boiling, it cannot follow our physics.

Only if the plane is not limited in volume. If the plane of water has a finite volume, the problem suddenly goes away.

Of course, that basically makes the plane a giant fish tank, which might be less than desirable.

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 04:21 PM
Only if the plane is not limited in volume. If the plane of water has a finite volume, the problem suddenly goes away.

That point was already brought up, and it has its own problems. The divergence theorem says we should have net gravitational flux out of any gaussian surface you create, but by symmetry, there is no flux anywhere.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-11, 04:23 PM
...Glasses and Super Hypnosis? :smallconfused:

Don't forget that the Super-Hypnosis is amplified by the super-lenses in the glasses and works over television broadcasts. For realz!

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 04:32 PM
Yora: go watch Outlaw Star for non-annoying catgirls. Or Dominion Tank Police. :smallwink:

YMMV. Aisha was more funny than annoying to me.

nightwyrm
2009-09-11, 04:35 PM
Stop it!!!! Stop killing my moe (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Moe)catgirl waifus!!!!

tribble
2009-09-11, 04:35 PM
These are the part of the Catgirl Maid Squadron, under Ms Sanada, Head of the maids for the Valhallan Royal Family.

The grils used to be Aiko, Keiko, Yuuko and Eiko, before Sanada used her transformation ray on them and many others to turn them into catgirls.

These were the 4 that Kazuto ran into when Sanada thought he was two-timing Valkyrie, and the first ones turned into catgirls, to control them to prevent Kazuto form going out with them when he is engaged to the princess Valkyrie.


UFO Ultramaiden Valkyrie

They are also on the main page for a furry society called Pokegirls:smalleek:

Oh god I can't believe I know this I have to kill myself now.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-11, 04:44 PM
That point was already brought up, and it has its own problems. The divergence theorem says we should have net gravitational flux out of any gaussian surface you create, but by symmetry, there is no flux anywhere.

My fluid dynamics was weak when it was new, and it's very out of date these days. But can't that be dealt with simply by expanding our hand-wave, that is, "subjective gravity," for the plane in question. We've already said inanimate objects are unaffected by gravity on the plane. Saying that they also do not exert it should solve this.

ScreamingDoom
2009-09-11, 04:45 PM
Another concern about the Elemental Plane of Water: marine life.

Salt water is significantly more dense than fresh water. Ordinarily, this results in a gradient of saltiness in an ocean with the heavier, more salty water collecting at the bottom. But since there is no specific gravity in the Elemental Plane of Water, there is no where for salt water to collect. In addition, because the plane is potentially infinite, the salt water would be diluted to the point where it simply couldn't be called salt water any more and no marine life would exist. Alternatively, it could be entirely salt water and in that case no freshwater life could exist. I suppose it could be some kind of brackish water, but again, only lifeforms which could survive in such an environment would be there; the point is that the saltiness of the Elemental Plane of Water would be uniform and any local variations would quickly dilute.

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 04:47 PM
You could have huge creatures that absorb salt from the surrounding water, leading to zones of fresh water around them.

nightwyrm
2009-09-11, 04:47 PM
What is it with Catgirls? I don't really watch/like anime/manga, but there are a lot of pictures of them out there?

I mean, how do they exist? Do other people not notice that they have ears and a tail?

It just confuses me!

I think the insertion of animal ears and tails in manga started off as visual cues to the reader to suggest certain qualities (ie. cuteness, enthusiasm, sneakiness etc.) in that character and aren't suppose to be something that is actually there "in-universe". But as these depictions became more popular, we get actual catgirls drawings who are actual catgirls characters (or any animal-people) in the manga. Different mangas have different in-universe explanation for having catgirls, but the real reason is that Everything's Cuter With Kittens (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlebwhmt6p47cy5?from=Main.EverythingsCuterWithK ittens).

nightwyrm
2009-09-11, 04:50 PM
You could have huge creatures that absorb salt from the surrounding water, leading to zones of fresh water around them.

That makes no sense. Biologically speaking, marine creatures has to deal with the problem of getting rid of excess salt, not sucking them in to desaltinatize the ocean around them.

Of course, there is no requirement that the elemental plane of water be a salty marine environment. An entire plane of fresh water would be just fine. Anything that's in the plane would have evolved to survive in those freshwater, even the creatures that look like marine animals on Earth.

Bob the Urgh
2009-09-11, 04:51 PM
Water does not instantly boil in a vacuum. vacuum is pressure that is less than atmospheric, such as 30 in Hg. With no pressure there would be no movement and the water molecules would simply be suspended, or frozen.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 04:53 PM
Water does not instantly boil in a vacuum. vacuum is pressure that is less than atmospheric, such as 30 in Hg. With no pressure there would be no movement and the water molecules would simply be suspended, or frozen.

Exception: If space is the "vacuum" in question, water will not freeze. It will boil.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-11, 04:56 PM
The point is that the saltiness of the Elemental Plane of Water would be uniform and any local variations would quickly dilute.

Very specific semi-permeable barriers might work. The question then become how to create a permeable range that would function: If it merely lets everything but salt through, then most marine life will die fairly quickly if they cross it. If it filters a larger range, the water itself would be high on the list of what we would expect to be filtered based on size: the portions of the plane would be sectioned of and we'd essentially be making smaller fish tanks within the fish tank.

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 04:56 PM
That makes no sense. Biologically speaking, marine creatures has to deal with the problem of getting rid of excess salt, not sucking them in to desaltinatize the ocean around them.


A wizard did it. Seriously, D&D has creatures that breathe fire and shoot lasers out of their eyes, and you have problems with a magic salt eating machine?


Water does not instantly boil in a vacuum. vacuum is pressure that is less than atmospheric, such as 30 in Hg. With no pressure there would be no movement and the water molecules would simply be suspended, or frozen.

Uh, no. Water boils when the vapor pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure. In vacuum, water boils.

nightwyrm
2009-09-11, 05:02 PM
A wizard did it. Seriously, D&D has creatures that breathe fire and shoot lasers out of their eyes, and you have problems with a magic salt eating machine?


Hey, I thought this was a thread about killing catgirls via scientific justifications. If you're just gonna handwave away biology with "a wizards did it", why are we having a 2 page thread about hydrology and water boiling. :smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight
2009-09-11, 05:03 PM
Only if the plane is not limited in volume. If the plane of water has a finite volume, the problem suddenly goes away.

Nope. Infinite plane of an infinite amount of water. There's no vacuum.

There's a temperature, which defines a vapor pressure, which won't be reached if there's an infinite amount of water taking up a defined density that causes a pressure that's too high for the vapor pressure. Like, say... around 1.000 kg/m^3 at 303.15 K. It can't be vapor then, since it's all liquid at that state.

Eldan
2009-09-11, 05:03 PM
However, you have to remember that the elemental plane of water is connected to the quasielemental plane of salt, and the gradient comes form there, as stated in the Planescape books. Now, as salt constantly flows into the plane of water, there should be an expanding front of salty water. However, since the plane is infinite, salt will never be added to all the water.

Problem solved.

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 05:04 PM
Hey, I thought this was a thread about killing catgirls via scientific justifications. If you're just gonna handwave away biology with "a wizards did it", why are we having a 2 page thread about hydrology and water boiling. :smallbiggrin:

Fine, you could have creatures like coral that use the salts to build other compounds for their shells.

They would have to grow really fast though.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-11, 05:15 PM
Hey, I thought this was a thread about killing catgirls via scientific justifications. If you're just gonna handwave away biology with "a wizards did it", why are we having a 2 page thread about hydrology and water boiling. :smallbiggrin:

Because there is physics and then there is stamp collecting?

nightwyrm
2009-09-11, 05:27 PM
Because there is physics and then there is stamp collecting?

You equate biology with stamp collecting? Maybe you should go to the post office the next time you need to see the doctor, or buy food, or want to know why the Atlantic cod fishery collapsed.

shadzar
2009-09-11, 05:28 PM
Because there is physics and then there is stamp collecting?

:smalleek: I have an uncanceled stamp from the World's Fair!

And of course you know there is more than one way to skin a cat-girl.

ScreamingDoom
2009-09-11, 05:34 PM
However, you have to remember that the elemental plane of water is connected to the quasielemental plane of salt, and the gradient comes form there, as stated in the Planescape books. Now, as salt constantly flows into the plane of water, there should be an expanding front of salty water. However, since the plane is infinite, salt will never be added to all the water.

Problem solved.

This explanation amuses me so. I don't remember the quasi-elemental plane of salt being mentioned in Planescape, but it's so weird that it seems reasonable for the setting.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-11, 06:27 PM
Nope. Infinite plane of an infinite amount of water. There's no vacuum.

There's a temperature, which defines a vapor pressure, which won't be reached if there's an infinite amount of water taking up a defined density that causes a pressure that's too high for the vapor pressure. Like, say... around 1.000 kg/m^3 at 303.15 K. It can't be vapor then, since it's all liquid at that state.

We're working through physics: operational infinitesimals are very bad form. If both continue without bound relative to space, there must still be a limiting relation between the progression of volume and mass to maintain the static pressure, be it above or below boiling.

Of course, then we have to deal with the fact that volume and mass have some elements of circular definition.


You equate biology with stamp collecting? Maybe you should go to the post office the next time you need to see the doctor, or buy food, or want to know why the Atlantic cod fishery collapsed.

Actually, no. It's a quote from Rutherford, and I thought it would be fun to be dismissive of non-physics there.

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." Ernest Rutherford

Despite a habit of always seeking out eclectic evening classes to audit in my free time (I'm currently brushing up on my O-chem and entomology), as far as my CV is concerned, my specialty is economic anthropology and archeology. Which is pretty dang far from physics.

nightwyrm
2009-09-11, 06:41 PM
Actually, no. It's a quote from Rutherford, and I thought it would be fun to be dismissive of non-physics there.

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." Ernest Rutherford


Ah, I see. I might be over sensitive coz I work in the biological fields.

Mando Knight
2009-09-11, 06:41 PM
We're working through physics: operational infinitesimals are very bad form. If both continue without bound relative to space, there must still be a limiting relation between the progression of volume and mass to maintain the static pressure, be it above or below boiling.
Ah, no. It's really not. Differential elements are used all the time in applied physics. If I want to figure out how my airplane is going to behave around the Himalayas, I'm not going to look at the entire atmosphere, I'm going to look at a particular part of it, which can be treated as an infinite expanse relative to the object in question.


Of course, then we have to deal with the fact that volume and mass have some elements of circular definition.
I have no idea what you mean by that.

AslanCross
2009-09-11, 06:44 PM
What is it with Catgirls? I don't really watch/like anime/manga, but there are a lot of pictures of them out there?

I mean, how do they exist? Do other people not notice that they have ears and a tail?

It just confuses me!

D&D has them too. :D Races of the Wild has the catfolk.

There's also shifters, unless you prefer them looking like Mel Gibson.

Eldan
2009-09-11, 06:47 PM
This explanation amuses me so. I don't remember the quasi-elemental plane of salt being mentioned in Planescape, but it's so weird that it seems reasonable for the setting.

Sure it was in. Salt is the negative Quasielement of water. Also, I now just got an idea for an adventure...

Non-saltwater Merman guard: "Sir! The expanding salt water front is approaching!"

Non-saltwater Merman king: "What? But my magicians said that the plane was infinite and the front would never reach us! Prepare for evacuation!"

Random832
2009-09-11, 07:04 PM
The obvious answer is that its gauge pressure is zero - i.e. the water pressure is the same as the air pressure of the material plane's atmosphere. (or rather it varies within the same range as the normal range at the surface of the material plane)


Actually...

Assume that we have an arbitrarily large sphere of water. We'll at first assign the density to be 1000 kg/m3 as an approximation. (if anyone knows the relationship between pressure and density, I can probably work this in at a later point)

As everyone knows, the "center" of the sphere experiences no gravity, and in general any point experiences no net gravity from any point further from the center than it.

Let r be the distance from the center to a spherical shell. Let dr be the thickness
Area of a spherical shell: 4πr² m²
Volume of the spherical shell: 4πr²dr m³
Mass of the spherical shell: 4000πr²dr kg
The volume of the sphere of this radius: (4/3)πr³ m³
Mass of the sphere: (4000/3)πr³ kg
Gravitational acceleration formula: mG/r²
Gravitational acceleraton at this radius: (4000/3)πr³G/r² m/s²
simplified: (4000/3)πrG m/s²
Force exerted by spherical shell on the water below it: 4000πr²dr (4000/3)πrG N
Pressure: 4000πr²dr (4000/3)πrG / 4πr² N/m²
Simplified: (4000000/3)π rGdr

This is, if you've lost track, the actual pressure exerted by each spherical shell.
So we have, for an arbitrarily large sphere, the pressure at its center is (cower before my ascii integral)


R
4000000 |'
------- πG | rdr
3 .|
r=0


= ~0.00028 r²/2

Which obviously diverges to infinity, proving nothing but that the pressure cannot be established by this method

Xvos
2009-09-11, 07:38 PM
That makes no sense. Biologically speaking, marine creatures has to deal with the problem of getting rid of excess salt, not sucking them in to desaltinatize the ocean around them.


Unless of course it uses salt for hydrostatic balance, like a halophilic archaeon does, something doing that on macroscale would suck in very large amounts of salt. Literally tonnes if you are looking at somehting the size of say a blue whale.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-11, 08:04 PM
Ah, no. It's really not. Differential elements are used all the time in applied physics. If I want to figure out how my airplane is going to behave around the Himalayas, I'm not going to look at the entire atmosphere, I'm going to look at a particular part of it, which can be treated as an infinite expanse relative to the object in question.

It is admittedly a couple years since I've touched advanced math or physics more advanced than statistical mechanics, but...

Differential elements aren't the same as operational infinitesimals. Saying an expression approaches an infinite value (or operating on an expression that has that property) is not the same as operating on an infinite value. One of the reasons that Newton's original calculus proofs do not hold up to modern rigor is that they operate on infinitesimals. Karl Weierstrass's revisions in the 1820s and 1830s, which provided proof of the basic operations of calculus without the use of infinitesimals, are necessary for Calculus and its derived mathematics to hold up the the modern definitions of mathematical soundness (and thus soundness in physics).

In fairness, modern mathematicians have constructed rigorous systems that allow the use of operational infinitesimals, but all the systems of which I am aware require operational constraints on the infinite expression, not merely a supplied value of "infinity."


I have no idea what you mean by that.

It was a poke at the fact that classical definitions of mass, volume, space, and matter (which are still in use in most classical mechanics and basic chemistry books I've seen) are circular. Modern definitions are not. It was a throw away reference that I didn't really think anyone would get, but I got to laugh at myself, which is always fun.

Ormur
2009-09-11, 08:12 PM
Since you are on the subject of fluid mechanics (lethal to catgirls) I wonder if anyone could answer how much water a mage hand powered pump would be able to pump 12 meters up (it's capable of moving 5 pounds worth of stuff) if you'd make it operate the pump.
I wanted plumbing for my stronghold. I got my DM to approve of it but if you're interested you could confirm my calculations. I got 120 kg an hour as the theoretical maximum but I probably screwed up somewhere.

Dervag
2009-09-11, 08:16 PM
Since you are on the subject of fluid mechanics (lethal to catgirls) I wonder if anyone could answer how much water a mage hand powered pump would be able to pump 12 meters up (it's capable of moving 5 pounds worth of stuff) if you'd make it operate the pump.
I wanted plumbing for my stronghold. I got my DM to approve of it but if you're interested you could confirm my calculations. I got 120 kg an hour as the theoretical maximum but I probably screwed up somewhere.Would you PM me the math or (better) release it on this thread?
________

General note:
It occurs to me that we already live in a universe with constant ambient background pressure, just as we live in a universe with constant ambient temperature. The pressure due to intergalactic hydrogen is ridiculously low, but it's nonzero, since the individual hydrogen atoms are in fact moving and will occasionally bump into your pressure gauge.

And since for all we know the universe really does have infinite extent in space*, there's no reason to assume that a similar Cosmic Background Pressure could not exist on the elemental plane of water.

*For all those of you who are about to say "but we can see the edge of the universe!"... we can't. We see a spherical region in space that gets older and older as we wait for light to reach us from distant places, back to shortly after the Big Bang. Which tells us how old the universe is, and which gives us relevant information that we can plug into models of the universe using general relativity. But which does not tell us anything that allows us to estimate the volume of the universe that lies outside the observable sphere.

So while we know the size of the observable universe, we do not know the size of the universe itself, and we have no way of demonstrating that it is finite in size.

Ormur
2009-09-11, 08:48 PM
Since it only says mage hand can lift 5 pounds but not how much force it can apply I just put it in the Force=mass x acceleration using the g acceleration of 9,8 m/s2 (I have no idea if I should) to give me about 22,5 newtons of force (2,3x9,8).

Power is (Fxs)/t so I had to figure out the distance the spell could push something in a certain amount of time. I went with 20ft per round as per the levitate spell since it isn't specified in the mage hand description (it just says you can move 5 pounds within a certain range, not at what speed). 20ft per round is also nice since that's about a meter per second so the power exerted would be (22,5x1)/1 = 22,5 watts.

To find out how much water that could lift 12 meters up I put it into the formula for static energy U=mgh trying to find the mass so it's m=U/(gh) where U is the static energy, g is the gravitational acceleration and h is the height so 22,5/(9,8x12)= 0,19 kg per second which is actually a lot more than my previous calculations or 688 kg per hour.

Seems like I screwed up in a good way but that depends on those calculations making any senses at all.

EleventhHour
2009-09-11, 08:50 PM
Why is everyone always trying to kill me?

Is that physi... :smalleek: X_X

Heliomance
2009-09-12, 03:52 AM
Since it only says mage hand can lift 5 pounds but not how much force it can apply I just put it in the Force=mass x acceleration using the g acceleration of 9,8 m/s2 (I have no idea if I should) to give me about 22,5 newtons of force (2,3x9,8).

Power is (Fxs)/t so I had to figure out the distance the spell could push something in a certain amount of time. I went with 20ft per round as per the levitate spell since it isn't specified in the mage hand description (it just says you can move 5 pounds within a certain range, not at what speed). 20ft per round is also nice since that's about a meter per second so the power exerted would be (22,5x1)/1 = 22,5 watts.

To find out how much water that could lift 12 meters up I put it into the formula for static energy U=mgh trying to find the mass so it's m=U/(gh) where U is the static energy, g is the gravitational acceleration and h is the height so 22,5/(9,8x12)= 0,19 kg per second which is actually a lot more than my previous calculations or 688 kg per hour.

Seems like I screwed up in a good way but that depends on those calculations making any senses at all.

Actually, pounds are already a measure of force, not mass. I couldn't tell you the conversion factor between pounds and newtons, but the fact that pressure in the Imperial system is measured in pounds persquare inch, among a few other things, tells us that pounds measure force. Therefore, Mage Hand can exert 5 pounds of force.

Yora
2009-09-12, 04:07 AM
I like how thir thread turns out. Highly dorky and heated, but not igniting. :smallbiggrin:

daggaz
2009-09-12, 04:29 AM
You are forgetting that the plane is infinite, and because of this, there is no boundary where vapor could escape. This means that the vapor would have to "bubble" out inside of the fluid, and remain there, essentially creating pockets of steam. However, with infinite and effectively incompressible mass in all directions, there will be infinite inertia as well. This will be more than enough static pressure to keep the water from boiling. In fact, if any of the water did vaporize (you can compress water somewhat), the resulting pressure would be enough to impede or even reverse further boiling. So no, the plane will not boil away.

As well, somebody else was right when they mentioned that there would be a very limited pressure wave created by opening into the bottom of the ocean... basically, the pressure would increase to the maximum (albeit very small) compressibility of water, and this sphere of denser water would expand at an increasingly slower rate, until eventually the integral over the volume equaled the total pressure of the ocean.. then it would stop. sort of. At the same time, and even slower spreading of this pressure gradient would occur, as the pressurised sphere equalizes with the rest of the infinite plane. If this effect is too slow, you might get a slight blowback for a short time. Its a differential equation, but the ultimate result is that the ocean would drop until the height of the water at the gate was such that there was no more compression of the water of the ocean -the plane just acts a very very slow sponge.

Tho honestly.. infinite mass..infinite phase changes trying to occur... the whole thing doesnt just kill catgirls, it kills physics. You'ld have to get down into quantum exchanges to find out which forces prevailed, but at the same time, general relativity just says that the entire situation is impossible and spacetime would simply fold up on itself and deny you the experiment.

Remember, gravitational acceleration of an object is zero at the core of a planet, because the net force is zero. But the curvature exerted on space-time still exists, and in this case its infinite, and thats a blackhole. Ditto for any other infinite plane of X, including fire. Energy is equivalent to mass, and can even produce gravitational effects.

jseah
2009-09-12, 06:20 AM
Ok, I think I can try.

Statistics of the Elemental Plane of Water:

Gravity is zero.
Despite all the water, all points are at the same potential as all others, thus gravity is zero.

Pressure:
We know the elemental plane of water is liquid.

Therefore, the pressure in the plane must be at least the vapour pressure of water.
Assuming temperature is 25*C, vapour pressure is 31.68 millibars. (from wikipedia)

Which means that water won't be coming out of the gate. Ever. Atmospheric pressure is enough to make a bubble.

Of course, this probably means that the pressure is probably going to be around atmospheric pressure, since I'm quite sure that 0.03 bars is not enough for humans to survive.
- Minimum for humans is 0.35 bar in 100% O2 environment (don't quote me on this, I didn't get it from an official source)
- Maximum is at very most 8 bars, beyond that it's not possible to survive in the long term. This is around 70 meters. It's probably lower than this since it takes training to survive at that pressure.

This gives us our range of pressure of the plane of water. (and the plane of air as well)

Which essentially means that any level of water above that will be drained into the plane of water. You will drain your ocean.

Yora
2009-09-12, 06:37 AM
I think in this thread we won't ever get any real final solution to the proposed problems. Though it has been fun so far, I'd like to go to a different question know.

Anyone something fun at hand? :smallbiggrin:
Maybe something not physics related?

Eldan
2009-09-12, 07:18 AM
So, now that we have talked about the plane of elemental water, let's talk about elemental earth!

Assuming an infinite volume of material of the approximate density of 5515.3 kg/m^3, which Wiki tells me is the average density of the Earth, and at standard temperature (298 K), how does gravity work there?

jseah
2009-09-12, 07:23 AM
XD It doesn't!

Disregarding the effects of small pockets, an even spread of mass over infinite space has exactly zero gravitational force.

Yora
2009-09-12, 08:16 AM
The Plane of earth assumes that all matter exceeds gravitational power on all other objects, so you can walk on any surface. But as a human body is an extremely tiny body of mass, gravity would be barely detectable.

Ormur
2009-09-12, 09:09 AM
Actually, pounds are already a measure of force, not mass. I couldn't tell you the conversion factor between pounds and newtons, but the fact that pressure in the Imperial system is measured in pounds persquare inch, among a few other things, tells us that pounds measure force. Therefore, Mage Hand can exert 5 pounds of force.

Thanks, this seemed a little high. According to Wikipedia 1 Newton equals 0,225 pounds of force so mage hand exerts 1,125 N of force accordingly.

Repeating the rest of my calculations with the new number I get 0,01 kg per second or 36 kg per hour. Significantly less than before but if it's pumping for the whole day it would give my stronghold 864 kg or liters or water for use each day on average. Shouldn't that be enough for the day to day needs of a wizard and his servant?

I don't mind that D&D source books are in English but I wish they'd be translated to metric. I can't relate to the imperial system and it would make catgirl killing like this a lot easier if we could convert straight to the SI system.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-12, 09:13 AM
I don't mind that D&D source books are in English but I wish they'd be translated to metric. I can't relate to the imperial system and it would make catgirl killing like this a lot easier if we could convert straight to the SI system.

Nahh, clearly they should just start giving mass in stones rather than pounds. Because, clearly, we US citizens actually understand this imperial system we're so dead set on keeping.

Eldan
2009-09-12, 09:27 AM
I can tell you this: I've seen a few german sourcebooks. They are in metric, and it kinda just doesn't work. The "1.5 meter step"? Also, I'm all for imperial system, even though it requires a lot of wonky conversions for me and I'm not really familiar with it.
Why? Because the metric system makes no sense in a fantasy world, while the imperial system still kinda does. It's a fluff thing.

quick_comment
2009-09-12, 09:39 AM
No infinite homogeneous plane can exist according to the laws of our physics. They all violate the divergence theorem/gauss's law!

Eldan
2009-09-12, 09:40 AM
Sure. That's what makes it so funny when DnD does it. Ever played Planescape with a physicist who didn't know the setting? :smallbiggrin:

quick_comment
2009-09-12, 09:41 AM
Sure. That's what makes it so funny when DnD does it. Ever played Planescape with a physicist who didn't know the setting? :smallbiggrin:

I was responding to the people up above trying to calculate the pressure and density. It can be done, the laws dont apply. Its like complaining "waiter, my soup has too much thursday in it."

Ormur
2009-09-12, 09:42 AM
I don't think the imperial system as it is to day actually has much to do with medieval measurements since in those days there were countless different measurements in different regions. There are many different pounds and distances would be measured in yards or leagues or cow lengths or who knows what. The imperial system just picked a few of them and standardized them (in 1824 even) so it's not too different from the SI system in that respect. I agree that it's more primitive though. :smallamused:

Eldan
2009-09-12, 09:45 AM
I still think it fits the flavour better. IT's a nice compromise between using metric (which doesn't really fit) and the merchant asking "Are you using the Sigilian Standard Pound, the Baator Ounce, the Mechanus Logicum or the Celestial Uniweight to measure that merchandise?"

Yora
2009-09-12, 09:49 AM
But to europeans... well, to everyone but US citizens, the imperial system seems to be mediveal. And RPGs are all about appearance. Using antiquated measurements is like calling it a tavern and not a pub or a bar, or calling it the city guard and not the police. :smallbiggrin:

Ozymandias9
2009-09-12, 09:51 AM
I can tell you this: I've seen a few german sourcebooks. They are in metric, and it kinda just doesn't work. The "1.5 meter step"? Also, I'm all for imperial system, even though it requires a lot of wonky conversions for me and I'm not really familiar with it.
Why? Because the metric system makes no sense in a fantasy world, while the imperial system still kinda does. It's a fluff thing.

Humm, this is an interesting point. The structure of the imperial system is based around human measurements and interaction with the environment rather than observable scientific constants and decimalisation. From an anthropology point of view, it does make more sense to expect something like an imperial system rather something metric flavored. With the possible exception of when magic becomes ubiquitous enough that you're looking at magocracy or setting with similarly ubiquitous magic.


I don't think the imperial system as it is to day actually has much to do with medieval measurements since in those days there were countless different measurements in different regions. There are many different pounds and distances would be measured in yards or leagues or cow lengths or who knows what. The imperial system just picked a few of them and standardized them (in 1824 even) so it's not too different from the SI system in that respect. I agree that it's more primitive though. :smallamused:

Yes, but it is still derived from those measurements rather than from physical constants.

Eldan
2009-09-12, 09:54 AM
Of course. But then there's still the point that the meter was first defined as 1/10000 of the distance between the equator and the north pole of our world. Which would not necessarily make sense in a fantasy setting. The kilogram I can see, though. And since most settings have similar calendars and day/night cycles, units of time would probably also be the same.

DataPacRat
2009-09-12, 09:55 AM
I still think it fits the flavour better. IT's a nice compromise between using metric (which doesn't really fit) and the merchant asking "Are you using the Sigilian Standard Pound, the Baator Ounce, the Mechanus Logicum or the Celestial Uniweight to measure that merchandise?"

I'd nigh-certainly /love/ a game where the DM asked that question...

Yora
2009-09-12, 09:58 AM
I thought most metric measurements are based on a water standard.

1 liter of water weight 1000g and has a volume of 1000 cm^2. And it freezes at 0°C and boils as 100°C

Of course it's not that precise and physicists will probably tell you that it's not exactly true, but that's how people quite precise handle measurements in everyday situations.

And unlike the metric pound, the US pound is not 500g. But I think for D&D, everyone ignores that fact. ^^

RoninAngel
2009-09-12, 10:01 AM
I like catgirls, they are cute.
In fact I see them as a really great thing, hot girls + kittens. Everything is cuter with kittens. :smallredface:
Couldn't we kill something that's less likable, like Yugio Players or Stop Having Fun Guys? :smallfrown:

Anyways, here goes;

1. one thing I always wondered about was the visibity on the elemental plane of fire. I imagine a plane where everything was always wreathed in flame would be really difficult to see in, kind of like a plane composed entirely of really really bright fog. I imagine the glare alone would be unbearable.

2. What is actually burning on the elemental plane of fire anyway? Is the fire itself flammible?

3. And what do you stand on? Do they have dirt there?

@Yora: Do you mind if I ask you what LGBTitP means. I am "Family" myself so I've heard a thousand different veriations, but never that one. :smallconfused:

Yora
2009-09-12, 10:05 AM
Of all the elemental planes, heck all the elements, fire makes the least amount of sense. :D

quick_comment
2009-09-12, 10:06 AM
1) It depends on the temperature of the plane. If it is hot enough, most of the blackbody radiation will be in the ultraviolet and x-ray regions. It could be anywhere between blinding and just really bright
2) Nothing necessarily. It could just be really hot
3) No idea

Yora
2009-09-12, 10:30 AM
@Ronin: It's from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102566). There's not so much going on there for a while.

Eldan
2009-09-12, 10:31 AM
Well, the Plane of Fire...

a) It has never been stated as all that bright, actually, from all I know. For brightness, you need the plane of radiance, which burns your eyes out instantly, if you are unprotected.

b) "An endless sea of fire, burning without fuel or air." Not the exact quote, but it's only flames. Neither fuel nor air are necessary, though some air is there.

c) Large parts of it are magma, actually. There are some swimming or flying rocks, though.

Ormur
2009-09-12, 11:13 AM
I still think it fits the flavour better. IT's a nice compromise between using metric (which doesn't really fit) and the merchant asking "Are you using the Sigilian Standard Pound, the Baator Ounce, the Mechanus Logicum or the Celestial Uniweight to measure that merchandise?"

But the thing is that I don't actually use most of the measurements in the D&D books in character but in combat situations where I always have to convert it to metric. I have no idea how long a 60 ft. bullrush is or a 30 feet jump is on the go. It usually just translates to "you move your guy this far on the grid" without me picturing how good that actually is. So using metric in those situations wouldn't break verisimilitude only make things easier to picture for me.
Movement is also given in miles but I map all my lands in kilometers so I must convert that when the players head for some place but I just let them know that the trip is "two days passage on horseback" like they would have said back then. Pounds are less problematic since I just divide by two and tell my players how many kilos they are carrying.

The D&D world also has a unified coinage and everyone speaks common so having some wizard of the old empire invent the metric system isn't such a large leap of faith. Otherwise you could have the coins like in the old English system with 1gp=20sp=240cp. In fact I'd prefer to have the metric system in my books so I could invent my own regional measurements, like the ones you name, but only have to convert once instead of twice. It's not about appearances it's about saving me time because I can't relate to the imperial system, I can't think in it, I have to convert it to metric units anyway.

It's a rant, I know but it's actually the thing that annoys me most about D&D and it would be nice to have a non-US English version with metric units for us imperial-challenged people. :smallsmile:

jseah
2009-09-12, 11:32 AM
No infinite homogeneous plane can exist according to the laws of our physics. They all violate the divergence theorem/gauss's law!
Actually, that depends on the shape of the space. If it's a infinitely large sphere, it can work.

There are thought experiments about infinite flat sheets of metal and gauss's law still applies and is, in fact, used to solve such problems.

If your point is about homogeneous, then I must point to the repulsion between water molecules.
A gravity anomaly (say a mermaid city) can change the local density of water, which will exert some gravitational force (since it's not a uniform field anymore). However, this force is small compared to the compressibility of water and some equilibrium is established.

You do not get a black hole since the repulsion between bits of water keeps any significant density anomalies from building up.


1) It depends on the temperature of the plane. If it is hot enough, most of the blackbody radiation will be in the ultraviolet and x-ray regions. It could be anywhere between blinding and just really bright
Not quite true.

Most of the radiation can be in UV and X-ray if you heat it to high enough temperatures, but the absolute light flux at the visible spectrum is probably still higher than if it was cooler.

Even if the spectrum shifts, the intensity of the radiation is going up as well. If what I understand about the quantum oscillator is correct, then the proportion of visible light drops slower than the increase in intensity.

So yeah, no dice, it's still going to be blinding. Probably only getting worse if the temperature increases.

RoninAngel
2009-09-12, 02:09 PM
Well, the Plane of Fire...

a) It has never been stated as all that bright, actually, from all I know. For brightness, you need the plane of radiance, which burns your eyes out instantly, if you are unprotected.

b) "An endless sea of fire, burning without fuel or air." Not the exact quote, but it's only flames. Neither fuel nor air are necessary, though some air is there.

c) Large parts of it are magma, actually. There are some swimming or flying rocks, though.

Now that I think about it, I remember something about the dirt there really being made of congealed fire :smalltongue:. I guess I forgot it becuase "congealed fire" is such a wierd concept. :smallbiggrin:

Haarkla
2009-09-13, 07:42 AM
Since it only says mage hand can lift 5 pounds but not how much force it can apply I just put it in the Force=mass x acceleration using the g acceleration of 9,8 m/s2 (I have no idea if I should) to give me about 22,5 newtons of force (2,3x9,8).

Power is (Fxs)/t so I had to figure out the distance the spell could push something in a certain amount of time. I went with 20ft per round as per the levitate spell since it isn't specified in the mage hand description (it just says you can move 5 pounds within a certain range, not at what speed). 20ft per round is also nice since that's about a meter per second so the power exerted would be (22,5x1)/1 = 22,5 watts.

To find out how much water that could lift 12 meters up I put it into the formula for static energy U=mgh trying to find the mass so it's m=U/(gh) where U is the static energy, g is the gravitational acceleration and h is the height so 22,5/(9,8x12)= 0,19 kg per second which is actually a lot more than my previous calculations or 688 kg per hour.

Seems like I screwed up in a good way but that depends on those calculations making any senses at all.

Your methodology is wrong.

5lb force x 0.454 kg/lb x 9.81 n/kg = 22.27 newtons.

Force = mass x accelleration (F = ma)

Therefore m = F/a = 22.27/19.62 = 1.135 kg

Mage Hand can accellerate 1.135 kg at 19.62 m/s^2 (2g).

Giving a net accelleration of 9.81 m/s^2 straight upwards.

The wizard accellerates 1.135 kg straight upwards at 2g (giving a net accelleration of 1g) for six meters.

He only needs to accelerate it halfway as it deccellerate due to gravity for the rest of the way, coming to a halt 12 metres above the original level.

Now time = the square root of (2 x distance /accelleration)

t = (2s/a)^-2

t = (2x6/9.81)^-2 = 1.106 seconds

So Mage Hand can pump 1.135 kg of water in 1.106 seconds.
1.135/1.106 = 1.026 kg/s


If the Mage Hand accellerates the water faster it is more efficient as the net accelleration upwards tends towards the total acceleration. As accelleration increases flow rate tends towards a maximum of 1.45 kg/s (5220 kg/hour).

Rainbownaga
2009-09-13, 07:27 PM
Speaking about visibility in the planes, where does the light from the plane of water come from? The DMG suggests that it gets dark pretty quick, but there must be some sort of sunlight equivalent to keep the water oxygenated for all that life. Maybe there's an in-universe explanation, but it seems weird to me.

Eldan
2009-09-13, 07:50 PM
Let's see... water borders ice, ooze, salt and steam, so no light coming in from neighbouring planes. Bioluminescence is not even nearly sufficient...

Well, I'll hit the Planescape books later, but for now, I can't remember any explanation.

Jergmo
2009-09-13, 09:10 PM
Man, I hate it when there's Thursday in my soup. :smallannoyed:

However, I have an idea on how this whole Elemental Plane shebang could work;

All four Elemental Planes orbit the Prime Material Plane at a very fast rate, and all four of them interact with each other in some key way. The Prime Material absorbs particles from all four planes, which is how the universe came to be and it lends to an unending rather than closed universe. The Elemental Plane of Earth is not comprised exclusively of metals and rock, there is also life of some kind that interacts with the Elemental Plane of Air to refresh it so that it can provide fuel for the Elemental Plane of Fire and oxygen for the Elemental Plane of Water, the water from the Elemental Plane of Water mixes with Earth and maintains sustenance while the Elemental Fire maintains life to keep it from blooming out of control. You have an entire system of infinite sources of energy that work hand in hand to provide a foundation for the universe which spans to the multiverse as a whole.

Edit: Positive and Negative planes fit into the equation as well for the life bit. They're elemental planes too!

(Unless there's something profoundly stupid about this that I haven't realized :smallredface:)

Ormur
2009-09-13, 09:34 PM
Your methodology is wrong.

5lb force x 0.454 kg/lb x 9.81 n/kg = 22.27 newtons.

Force = mass x accelleration (F = ma)

Therefore m = F/a = 22.27/19.62 = 1.135 kg

Mage Hand can accellerate 1.135 kg at 19.62 m/s^2 (2g).

Giving a net accelleration of 9.81 m/s^2 straight upwards.

The wizard accellerates 1.135 kg straight upwards at 2g (giving a net accelleration of 1g) for six meters.

He only needs to accelerate it halfway as it deccellerate due to gravity for the rest of the way, coming to a halt 12 metres above the original level.

Now time = the square root of (2 x distance /accelleration)

t = (2s/a)^-2

t = (2x6/9.81)^-2 = 1.106 seconds

So Mage Hand can pump 1.135 kg of water in 1.106 seconds.
1.135/1.106 = 1.026 kg/s


If the Mage Hand accellerates the water faster it is more efficient as the net accelleration upwards tends towards the total acceleration. As accelleration increases flow rate tends towards a maximum of 1.45 kg/s (5220 kg/hour).

That static energy ploy of mine seemed a little iffy anyway but your calculations don't include something pointed out to me earlier, that 5 pounds could also be a measurement of force. So I recalculated it with mage hand exerting 5 pounds of force or 1,125 N. Does that seem valid?

Anyway, If I insert that figure into your calculations mage hand accelerates 0,057 kg up 12 meters in 1,106 seconds or 0,052 kg/s. I don't know what method you used to arrive at the higher number so I'll just calculate the hourly rate from the lower one which yields roughly 186 kg/hour (but that would probably mean more than 200 kg with higher acceleration, right). I'm basing all of this on what I remember from my high school physics so feel free to correct any mistakes you find.
I'm also a little troubled by pressure never entering the calculations but perhaps that's unnecessary.

The good news for my character are that either way mage hand seems to be powerful enough to supply my stronghold plumbing with water.

quick_comment
2009-09-13, 10:13 PM
Actually, that depends on the shape of the space. If it's a infinitely large sphere, it can work.

There are thought experiments about infinite flat sheets of metal and gauss's law still applies and is, in fact, used to solve such problems.

I can has proof?

Im aware of using gauss's law for infinite sheets- that how you find the electric field of a capacitor, but for a homogenous distribution of charge, it breaks, at least in flat space.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-09-13, 10:35 PM
Say, while we're in the catgirl killing mood, can anybody find me a link to a supposedly horrifying build / concept called "Monty and the Neo-Terminator?" Supposedly it's right up there with Pun-Pun in it's game-breaking, logic-defying insanity, and I feel like my brain should be punished.

ScreamingDoom
2009-09-13, 10:36 PM
Speaking about visibility in the planes, where does the light from the plane of water come from? The DMG suggests that it gets dark pretty quick, but there must be some sort of sunlight equivalent to keep the water oxygenated for all that life. Maybe there's an in-universe explanation, but it seems weird to me.

Maybe light is just a property of the plane-space? Sort of how gravity is a property of matter, there's just something in the space-time fabric equivalent of the plane which produces light. This light is not uniform (just like gravity wells do not have uniform distributions in space-time), so there are areas of light and dark.

Yeah, I'm pulling this straight out of my ass.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-13, 11:25 PM
"waiter, my soup has too much thursday in it."

this made me lol can I sig this?

Ozymandias9
2009-09-13, 11:26 PM
Speaking about visibility in the planes, where does the light from the plane of water come from? The DMG suggests that it gets dark pretty quick, but there must be some sort of sunlight equivalent to keep the water oxygenated for all that life. Maybe there's an in-universe explanation, but it seems weird to me.

If you place the base of the food chain on chemiosynthesis rather than photosynthesis, we merely have to answer the question of where you find a sufficient number of reasonable simulacra for hydrothermal vents in an infinite plane of water (limited overlap with the plane of fire perhaps?). Chemiosynthesis is admittedly rare, but it is more common in the ocean than anywhere else. And if you make sufficiently outlandish presumptions about the quantity of such chemiosynthetic life-forms, then they should be enough prop up a similarly outlandish quantity of bioluminescent, chemiosynthetic super-fish to prop up a normal photosynthetic food chain.

It's perhaps the most absurd explanation I've ever uttered, but it seems biologically possible (even if it does, somehow, seem more improbable than actual magic).

quick_comment
2009-09-14, 12:02 AM
this made me lol can I sig this?

Sure, why not?

taltamir
2009-09-14, 12:58 AM
It is really simple, the authors of DnD have an extremely rudimentary understanding of physics, and an average int score. Their explanations and settings simply need significant reworking to be viable. As written it simply does not work.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 01:04 AM
{Scrubbed}

Jergmo
2009-09-14, 01:58 AM
So, um...how 'bout them crazy elemental plane physics? :smalleek:

Ormur
2009-09-14, 02:51 AM
Well, this is a forum for roleplaying although it's more geared towards swords and sorcery than... wait how many human/animal hybrids are there in the D&D sourcebooks anyway? :smallsmile:

Yeah, back to physics...

taltamir
2009-09-14, 02:54 AM
Well, this is a forum for roleplaying although it's more geared towards swords and sorcery than... wait how many human/animal hybrids are there in the D&D sourcebooks anyway? :smallsmile:

Yeah, back to physics...

keyword roleplaying. I am keenly aware that I am not REALLY a wizard or an elf, many otherkins think they are; and if only they managed to get a hold of their spellbook IRL...

As for getting back on track... physics are not applicable to the RAW because the RAW was written by people who fail at understanding basic physics. It will never work to try to apply them. Just make adjustments to the setting

Eldan
2009-09-14, 03:32 AM
Yup. See Teleport and impulse. That way lies madness.

So, expanding on the "rotating elemental planes" idea above:

My theory would be that the elemental planes interact via the deep ethereal, which is, after all, said to create protoplasma made from a combination of all elements.

See also: Physique Atomique: Being an Essay detailing an Atomic Theory of the Elements (http://www.mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html)

Haarkla
2009-09-14, 04:02 AM
That static energy ploy of mine seemed a little iffy anyway but your calculations don't include something pointed out to me earlier, that 5 pounds could also be a measurement of force. So I recalculated it with mage hand exerting 5 pounds of force or 1,125 N. Does that seem valid?

My calculations are based on the fact that 5 pounds is also a measurement of force. It is you who has made the error. 5 lb force = 22.27 Newtons, not 1.125. You have multiplied (by 0,225) when you should have divided. Your error is understandable given your lack of familiarity with the Imperial system.

Skorj
2009-09-14, 04:02 AM
On the elemental plane of water: see, this is what happens when a you try to solve an engineering problem with physics.

If you want to see how a universe filled with liquid behaves on a large scale, just look up (with a microwave telescope). The cosmic microwave background radiation is a snapshot of the time when our universe was enitrely liquid. While in some minor ways involving temperature, a relatavistic plasma my be different than water, it is very much a liquid on that scale. What we see are very large "pockets" of slightly more or less dense areas, slowly oscillating over time in sound waves. The music of the spheres.

With nearly uniform distribution there is nearly zero gravity everywhere, but the slightly more dense pockets feed back on themselves becoming ever more dense until the resistance of the liquid to compression overcomes the attraction of gravity, when the pocket "bounces" and slowly expands again (in harmonic motion) and the adjacent less dense pockets become more dense. The scale of this is so vast that just saying that density is uniform and gravity is zero is a very good approximation indeed over areas the size of a galaxy.

What pressure there is comes entirely from density and temperature. Temperature and pressure change slowly on the same vast scale along with density, but even by the standards of immortals this is a slow, relaxed process. Except, of course, if that universe, like ours, is expanding! Then there would come a time when the entire plane undergoes a phase change - either boiling or freezing depending on which side of the triple point you come down on. Much like our own universe changed from relativistic plasma to hot gas, and suddenly became transparant. The light of that moment, when everything changed, is the cosmic microwave background radiation.

jseah
2009-09-14, 04:16 AM
I can has proof?

Im aware of using gauss's law for infinite sheets- that how you find the electric field of a capacitor, but for a homogenous distribution of charge, it breaks, at least in flat space.
Ok. Did some thinking and discussion. Looks like you were right to some extent.

Yes, if you naively try to apply Gauss's Law for gravity, it does breakdown. As I quickly found out.

Imagine a sphere 1 m radius. Gauss's law states that the gravitational flux across the sphere is = -4πGM

G is the gravitational constant. On the order of 10^-11
M is the mass enclosed by that sphere. We can work this out using the density of water but I shan't bother.

In any case, that value is negative since the mass of water enclosed by that sphere is non-zero. This means there's a net flux across the sphere.

Which means that the gravitational force at the points on the sphere can't all be zero.
The problem lies in the assumptions of Gauss's Law for gravity. It assumes a static state, which this situation certainly isn't.

It isn't a static state since gravity *only* travels at the speed of light. Which is negligible compared to the size of the body of water, which is infinite. So the water body cannot be gravitationally influencing the entire body, and thus it can't be a static state.
Therefore, we cannot use Gauss's law in this case.

#################################################

There are two situations here.

1) The plane of water "began" at some point in time and proceeded from there.

In this case, each molecule of water sends out a sphere of gravity that expands at the speed of light. Each molecule thus "receives" gravitational influence from a spherically symmetric radius of water within it's light cone.

This all cancels out for obvious reasons and thus net gravity is 0.

2) If the plane of water was ever introduced to a critical mass (like a singularity, or a mass large enough to overcome water molecule repulsion) or the plane was created with the gravitational waves "in transit" and having reached the edge of the infinite sphere,

then yes, you do get a singularity. However, the event horizon cannot expand at infinite speed and thus will take infinite time to swallow the whole universe.

More calculations here: (warning, the blood of many catgirls were spilled herein)
If the "visible portion" (ie. the bits with all the life) is infinitely far from the center singularity (and at the same time infinitely far from the edge, just a smaller infinity) the only forces involved is the tidal forces (difference in acceleration due to gravity)

This is a unique situation. Gravitational force on a sphere in this universe is linearly related to the size of the sphere.

gravitational flux = - 4 π G M
M = density of water x 4/3 π x r^3

gravitational force per unit area = gravitational flux / area of sphere
area of sphere = 4 π x r^2

gravitational force per unit area = - 4π x G x density of water x 4/3 π x r^3 / (4 π x r^2)

simplifying: gravitational force per unit area = - G x density of water x 4/3 π x r

for a certain distance "r" from the singularity. (where r is an infinity of a certain size)
The difference in gravitational force, which is the tidal force, is the difference between the force at 'r' and the force at 'r + x' where x is the additional distance from the singularity of the comparison point.

tidal force = - G * density of water * 4/3 π * x

Interestingly, this results in the "visible universe" having a visible pressure gradient. And no, the pressure isn't infinite.

Once again, the speed limit comes into play. Pressure is conducted at the speed of sound in water. ~1480 m s-1. I'll take it to be 1500 m s-1.

Therefore, pressure increases at the rate of ~4.2 x 10^-4 N per second.

Around 1.65 days to increase 1 Newton. Not very nice. Since you can't get out of the area unless you can swim faster than the speed of sound in water...
Note that this only applies once you enter the "light cone" of the singularity.
############################

In the light of that, I think option 1) is the simpler one. Either that, or you can say that the "visible universe" is aleph-zero distance from the center of the plane (where the singularity is) and thus won't ever enter the light cone of the singularity.

Ormur
2009-09-14, 05:47 AM
Does gravity travel at the speed of light? I'm a complete amateur but I'm interested in astrophysics and I've never read anything about it. I've often wondered what would happen if the Sun somehow disappeared instantly. So I guess that in that case Earth would be flung from orbit at the same time the Sun ceased to shine on it 8 minutes after the disappearance.

Those are some interesting options though. Would there therefore be no gravity in an infinite world that was created already full of mater? That certainly seems to fit better into the D&D cosmology than racing from an endlessly expanding wave of pressure and the event horizon of singularity.
I'm not really sure there would be a visible universe on the elemental plane of water as we understand it either. If plane shift and other similar spells can transport you to any place on the elemental plains (even if it's somewhat random) then that opens the possibility of effective FTL travel, indeed infinitely fast travel since you can plane shift to the material plane and then plane shift back to the elemental plain except to a place infinitely far from the original one. So if there was a singularity on the plane you'd imagine that there was a chance of ending up near it by inter-planar transport (or is there, infinity is hard to comprehend).


My calculations are based on the fact that 5 pounds is also a measurement of force. It is you who has made the error. 5 lb force = 22.27 Newtons, not 1.125. You have multiplied (by 0,225) when you should have divided. Your error is understandable given your lack of familiarity with the Imperial system.

That would have been in line with my first calculation sans the static energy. Later I just went by Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force#Units_of_measurement) but your calculations give me more water and as I've said I can't make heads or tails of the Imperial system so I was very likely wrong. :smallsmile:

quick_comment
2009-09-14, 07:02 AM
Does gravity travel at the speed of light? I'm a complete amateur but I'm interested in astrophysics and I've never read anything about it. I've often wondered what would happen if the Sun somehow disappeared instantly. So I guess that in that case Earth would be flung from orbit at the same time the Sun ceased to shine on it 8 minutes after the disappearance.


According to theory, yes.

According to experiment, the bounds are a few % away from C at the moment, but they basically point to it being C.

jseah - Thanks! Im thinking maybe the plane of water has some strange topology which lets gravity work out fine.

Yora
2009-09-14, 08:34 AM
I remembered one that had bothered me many times before, but I never got a useable answer:

How much distance has an average human body to fall to reach termal velocity?

Apparently, termal velocity is at about 250 km/h. But what's the distance of a fall to reach it? D&D rules claim it's at 200 ft./60m, but that seems much too short to me.

jseah
2009-09-14, 08:49 AM
Apparently, termal velocity is at about 250 km/h. But what's the distance of a fall to reach it? D&D rules claim it's at 200 ft./60m, but that seems much too short to me.
A short estimate:

Assume no friction (even though that's stupid but it gives us a smaller number)

Distance taken to reach 250km/h speed is ~245.8 m.

It's going to be much more since the acceleration isn't nicely 9.81 all the time since friction slows you down as you approach terminal velocity.

Yeah, 60m is way too short.

kamikasei
2009-09-14, 08:52 AM
I remembered one that had bothered me many times before, but I never got a useable answer:

How much distance has an average human body to fall to reach termal velocity?

Apparently, termal velocity is at about 250 km/h. But what's the distance of a fall to reach it? D&D rules claim it's at 200 ft./60m, but that seems much too short to me.

250 km/h is about 70m/s. Accelerating at 10m/s^2 that takes seven seconds to reach. My possibly completely incorrect recollections of how to calculate distance covered from acceleration, backed up by a quick Googling, suggest to me that you cover 35m in that time. It seems too low to me... whoops, never mind. I was absent-mindedly using the acceleration where I should have been using the final speed, it comes out to 245m, in line with the previous poster.

MickJay
2009-09-14, 09:47 AM
The Elemental Plane of Fire is filled with flogiston. Flogiston being the pre-modern-physics name of the element of fire. It appears when something that is attractive to it becomes hot, then the flogiston shows up and consumes the material (which burns in the process), then it goes away. Apparently, the EPoF is just the most attractive place for flogiston to be, so it goes to other planes only when the conditions there become as (or more) attractive as those in the EPoF. It's very simple, really.

The physics in D&D just works in a different way from the RL one, so you have to be very careful when applying modern knowledge to D&D (since in most cases, you'll get results similar to trying to use flogiston theory in conjunction with, e.g., RL space rocket technology).

Now we have to test if discussing discredited and/or non-scientific physics theories can also be used for catgirl control purposes.

Eldan
2009-09-14, 09:58 AM
Right... they forgot that in the atomic theory of DnD elements... Fire should really have been named Phlogiston.
On the other hand, Phlogiston was already used as the medium of spelljammer space. They should have used Aether there. But that was already used for the ethereal plane...

Damn. Too many good old wordds are already used in DnD.

MickJay
2009-09-14, 10:43 AM
You can always argue that ether and aether are two different things (the spelling difference is there for a reason, right? Doesn't matter what reason. :smalltongue: ) Spelljamer travel could then have been made to rely on some properties of ether/aether (if they were to be the same) in any case.

Keewatin
2009-09-15, 01:47 PM
What about all the plant life in the plane of water. Without sunlight does it even exist? The example in the DMG takes place in Kelp and has a submerged surface traveling ship as a treasure vault:smallconfused: . Would all plant and inanimate objects collect in the center of the plane and form a large core, or something like an internal moon creating tides and currents? Or would there be more then one of these collections of non living objects?

ScreamingDoom
2009-09-15, 07:16 PM
What about all the plant life in the plane of water. Without sunlight does it even exist? The example in the DMG takes place in Kelp and has a submerged surface traveling ship as a treasure vault:smallconfused: . Would all plant and inanimate objects collect in the center of the plane and form a large core, or something like an internal moon creating tides and currents? Or would there be more then one of these collections of non living objects?

I don't see why there couldn't be large collections of non-living objects in the Elemental Plane of Water. It'd be basically like space in the real world, only instead of mostly-empty vacuum, you'd have water as the medium through which these large bodies drifted. So there would be "planets" and other large bodies drifting throughout the plane to which plants, coral, etc could attach and on which alien submarines could crashland.

The big problem is, again, light. I suppose there could be equivalent suns (though how would those form without large collections of localized hydrogen that collapse enough to fuse?).

Thoughtbot360
2009-09-15, 07:55 PM
What is it with Catgirls? I don't really watch/like anime/manga, but there are a lot of pictures of them out there?

I mean, how do they exist? Do other people not notice that they have ears and a tail?

It just confuses me!

Its my assumption that people just nod their head and smile when they meet one. You know, like child heroes playing with hi-tech equipment and fighting older men in board daylight.

warrl
2009-09-15, 10:22 PM
To be specific the party was wanted for reasons I won't get into and she had been hired by the mayor at the time to infiltrate the party and tear them apart from the inside (she's a player but the group is fine with some internal betrayal stuff, they're all pretty nice to each other). She starts the day by sending a note to the nearest guard post saying "Infamous bandit <rogue's name> was spotted <location> yesterday. Check it out" then she lures the rogue there and keeps him there by...well, you know the rest.

Hey, Judas only kissed...

jseah
2009-09-15, 10:41 PM
According to theory, yes.

According to experiment, the bounds are a few % away from C at the moment, but they basically point to it being C.

jseah - Thanks! Im thinking maybe the plane of water has some strange topology which lets gravity work out fine.
I carried out the thought experiment a bit further.

(taking option 2 with the gravitational waves having passed the point where the "visible universe" is)
Let's say the pressure keeps building up. There's no reason why the pressure has any limit at all, since it's due to gravity.
Eventually, the pressure is so high it'll crush water molecules into each other and the area will turn into neutron star matter. Some time later (read: very very long), it turns into a singularity as well.

Which leads to this crazy conclusion:
The central event horizon can't swallow up the universe fast enough.
IE. the black hole can't expand fast enough and you get black holes forming at the edge of the black hole!
(My sphere of water is so big that the black hole can't eat it up fast enough to prevent it from forming it's own black hole! Is it just me going crazy or does this make sense?)

The problem is that the entire thing is symmetric, which implies that the shape of the singularity formed is a hollow sphere... After which all sorts of strange and wonderful things happen. I'm sure somewhere, something dies... (physics, not a catgirl)

Da Pwnzlord
2009-09-19, 09:08 PM
Hey, don't let this thread die!


How much damage would a projectile weighing thousands of tons due to Shrink Item deal if it was fired from a medeaval catapult?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-19, 09:23 PM
Hey, don't let this thread die!


How much damage would a projectile weighing thousands of tons due to Shrink Item deal if it was fired from a medeaval catapult?

How does the catapult fire it if it weighs so much?

Yora
2009-09-20, 03:36 AM
It's also shrinked in weight, to about 1/4000 of it's original weight.
But 1000 tonnes would still weight 250 kg, about twice the common maximum for a trebuchet.