OOTS #677 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Elfin]

Very awesome. Love the crack in the first panel.

[daggaz]

sweeet! =) I laughed already on the first panel (nice to have the joke switcheroo and good old evil V back)

[BigFatLion]

Dang those shiny dangly things, Blackwing had good advice until then.

[nysisobli]

Thats great, a warlock? WHAT!!!

[sikyon]

wait what happened to the guy in the last panel?

was he contingencied or something?

[FoE]

Hey! My mother was a warlock!! :smallfurious:

[Morty]

Aaah. There's no greater insult for a wizard than being called a warlock.

[Kaytara]

...Unsettling.

Loved the crack about spell component value in the first panel, though.

[Dixieboy]

Query:
That "Glassy look" thing, reference to something, or just a general insult?

No matter, purdy awesome comic thar.

[Elfin]

...Unsettling.

Loved the crack about spell component value in the first panel, though.

Yea, that was great.

[Avilan the Grey]

Effective, but not creative. V is very... direct.

[Kaytara]

So, what wizard spells require diamond dust to cast? I know it sounds familiar. A pinch of diamond dust...

[shadzar]

Shiny. :smallbiggrin:

Kicks his ass V!

[Mando Knight]

Was the guy's head supposed to be missing in the last panel?

[TengYt]

Uh oh, V's losing it again. (And no, this was not morally justified, before someone says anything)

[Lord Gyles]

The perils of queuing...

[Elfin]

Was the guy's head supposed to be missing in the last panel?

I think that was a contingincied teleport or somesuch.

[Yuki Akuma]

He got blown back from the force of the spell, but left his hat behind.

It's a common comedic technique in both animation and sequential art.

You can clearly see his feet in the last panel, people. He didn't teleport.

[Morty]

I think his turban simply fell off as he was hit by lighting and knocked back.
Ninja'd, of course.

[Zanaril]

It's always the shinies that cause the problems.

I'm torn over deciding which is better: the line about the cost of spell components or the line about bad self-insertion fanfic.

[FoE]

Was the guy's head supposed to be missing in the last panel?

V hit him so hard that his turban flew right off of his head.

Actually, he might be dead in the next strip. Wouldn't that be hilarious? :smallbiggrin:

[Armitage]

wait what happened to the guy in the last panel?
The Lightning Blot trew him out of the picture and he lost his turban in the process.



So, what wizard spells require diamond dust to cast? I know it sounds familiar. A pinch of diamond dust...
Identify? Or did that need a complete diamond?

(It's been far too long since my last RPG session *sigh*)

[Saph]

That was hilarious. I love the interaction between V and his familiar, I hope we get more of that. :)

(Diamond Dust is the material component for Stoneskin, which requires 250 gp worth, and Restoration, which needs 100 gp worth. Looks like V's planning ahead.)

[Shale]

If this is where we're going with Blackwing as a regular, I like it.

[CyberRebirth]

Poor V, he just can't catch a break.

It's like the universe is bent on making her lose his temper and going on a mad wizard killing spree.

I'm sure she's very close, too.

[FlawedParadigm]

Good to see V is still a bit evil.

And no, he was probably not morally justified in zapping the guy. Although I'd look the other way. :smalltongue:

[Zordrath]

Loved it :smallbiggrin: The line about bad self-insertion fic was great.

[Mando Knight]

He got blown back from the force of the spell, but left his hat behind.

It's a common comedic technique in both animation and sequential art.

You can clearly see his feet in the last panel, people. He didn't teleport.

Oh, now I see. He's falling backwards. I had assumed that his oversized torso was still entirely vertical, thus make it look like V vaporized his head.:smallamused::smalltongue:

[DOOMBOT9000]

Sometimes, a quickened lightning bolt is the best solution.

[Kaytara]

The title is hilarious. XD After I did a google search, of course. Jiminy Cricket is the little cricket in Disney's Pinnoccio, who, not to put too fine a point on it, acts as his conscience, if I recall correctly. :smallbiggrin: The joke being that V's conscience is easily disabled by shiny bits of glass.

[chiasaur11]

Oh, now I see. He's falling backwards. I had assumed that his oversized torso was still entirely vertical, thus make it look like V vaporized his head.:smallamused::smalltongue:

Mind, that may happen eventually anyway.

V does love disintegrate.

[Elan's Modron]

Panel 1: I'm very happy to see that Eve & Larry have kin abroad...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html

[shadzar]

The title is hilarious. XD After I did a google search, of course. Jiminy Cricket is the little cricket in Disney's Pinnoccio, who, not to put too fine a point on it, acts as his conscience, if I recall correctly. :smallbiggrin: The joke being that V's conscience is easily disabled by shiny bits of glass.

:smallconfused: You had to google for that? I was already complaining about Disney taking over everything else, so didn't want to say anything about the title here or allude that Disney has taken over Rich like Marvel and Naruto, and is injecting itself even into OOTS-verse.

So then we all know who the opposite of Blackwing is then right? Qarr.


Blackwing is the good side of the conscious and Qarr is the bad side of V's conscious.

[Leliel]

Damn you, shiny thing!

Ah well. Who needs Stone Skin when Durkon can provide?

[Malkar Grumbo]

I have the feeling that the Order will be fleeing town soon.

[Kaytara]

Quickened Lightning Bolt takes up a seventh-level spell slot, doesn't it?:smalleek:

Dammit. I thought V had learned his lesson about expending high-level spell slots to prove a point. Though I guess Rich had to keep things interesting.

[Raenir Salazar]

lashing out in anger isn't nessasarily an evil act. People get into tavern brawls all the time, if he killed him thats another thing.

[Silverraptor]

Well, V has lost it. He does seem more edge now.

[Katrover_Swatroad]

V, have you learned anything? :smallannoyed:

But the "Warlock" comment hit to close to home, didn't it? In D&D 4th edition, Warlocks are folks who channel the energies of fell supernatural beings. Kinda like what V was doing with the Soul Splices. :smallfrown:

V wants to improve, but the elf's still got a long way to go. Then again, the road to self-improvement has always been long and detour-filled.

[The Recreator]

Well, it was a Quickened Lightning Bolt… maybe Vaarsuvius still has enough time to complete a Buy Item action? :smalltongue:

[ThePhantasm]

I have a feeling this wizard who is taunting V is more than he appears, and the diamond dust is just a ruse. He knew just which buttons to push to make V mad. My guess: Sabine or one of the three cloaked ICC guys.

[Malkar Grumbo]

This was stated in another thread, but what if this guy is one of the new members of the Liner Guild, or one of them in disguise? I mean it would explain why he was trying to get V's goat, because we know the Liner Guild is headed to the gate as well.

[Malkar Grumbo]

I have a feeling this wizard who is taunting V is more than he appears, and the diamond dust is just a ruse. He knew just which buttons to push to make V mad. My guess: Sabine or one of the three cloaked ICC guys.

Darn you and your obviously faster typing skills! Although you do make a good point in the last sentence. It is implied that the ICC has some purpose for V, maybe they want to push V down the road to evil, and thus put stuff like this in to make it happen.

[Ikialev]

What is so wrong about being a warlock.

Also, was V's attack on The Guy morally justified?

[Bat Bear]

Wow, I was really worried about V until I came on here and saw he hadn't actually killed the, um, turban wearing person.

[Dark Faun]

Poor V never gets a break. Looks like the universe did take a level of ranger and chose Favored Enemy (Vaarsuvius).


I have a feeling this wizard who is taunting V is more than he appears, and the diamond dust is just a ruse. He knew just which buttons to push to make V mad. My guess: Sabine or one of the three cloaked ICC guys.
The IFCC has no interest in V not getting the materials for her spells. If anything, they want V to be as powerful as possible to be able to reach the gate, defeat Xykon and, once possessed by one of them, take out the OotS.


This was stated in another thread, but what if this guy is one of the new members of the Liner Guild, or one of them in disguise? I mean it would explain why he was trying to get V's goat, because we know the Liner Guild is headed to the gate as well.
I think it's more a matter of all wizards being jerks. :smallwink:

[Zanaril]

Wow, I was really worried about V until I came on here and saw he hadn't actually killed the, um, turban wearing person.

We don't know that yet.

[Trixie]

Yet another proof burying "not-evil" under pile of reason bricks :smallamused:

Incidentally, what spells require diamond dust?

[Malkar Grumbo]

Poor V never gets a break. Looks like the universe did take a level of ranger and chose Favored Enemy (Vaarsuvius).


I think it's more a matter of all wizards being jerks. :smallwink:

That may be, but I do think it is possible. Although we will not find out until the next comic what comes of this.

[Malkar Grumbo]

What is so wrong about being a warlock.

Also, was V's attack on The Guy morally justified?

Short Answer: No

Long Answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooo

[Dreadon]

I have chosen to find all the spells that use diamonds as a material component. Stone skin, Restoration, Greater warding, Raise dead spells, magic jar, Protection from spells, Symbol of X spells, Undead to Death, and the one that i just found out that will be most likely be use by V. Nondetection. Short description all spell that try to find or detect information about that target don't work. Like what alignment V is.

[Elfey]

yeah, gonna be a while for V to be non-evil despite V's intent...

[Trobby]

Eh...this comic doesn't quite chime with me. I like the crack about spell components in the first panel, but the whole exchange between V and the Turban Guy just seems...inserted. "V gets angry" Isn't really comedy gold, nor is it all that reassuring to know that V is still a "loose canon", something I never, ever saw in him until he started blaming himself for the loss of the city and taking it upon himself to win battles. Yes, he was at a point more concerned about arcane power than he was about humanity, but his ultimate purpose in this comic was always, to me, to play the straight man. Seeing him get outraged like that...it just doesn't seem very "V-like".

[Dark Faun]

Incidentally, what spells require diamond dust?
Here's Saph's answer:


(Diamond Dust is the material component for Stoneskin, which requires 250 gp worth, and Restoration, which needs 100 gp worth. Looks like V's planning ahead.)


That may be, but I do think it is possible. Although we will not find out until the next comic what comes of this.
It is indeed possible. In any case, I doubt it is shapeshifted Sabine since this plot was already used in the past with the dwarven blacksmith.

[Murdim]

Yet another proof burying "not-evil" under pile of reason bricks :smallamused:How ? This kind of incident triggers quite often even in non-evil parties, it's kinda traditional in tabletop RPGs...

[Onyavar]

Ok, I'm not familiar with familiars. Does a raven evoke wisdom? And the warlock insult was something that topped V's will save?

And does the toad of the other wizard guy give him skill points in provocation? It IS a big-mouthed animal...

[sombrastewart]

Yet another proof burying "not-evil" under pile of reason bricks :smallamused:

Incidentally, what spells require diamond dust?


That was hilarious. I love the interaction between V and his familiar, I hope we get more of that. :)

(Diamond Dust is the material component for Stoneskin, which requires 250 gp worth, and Restoration, which needs 100 gp worth. Looks like V's planning ahead.)

First page.

[Malkar Grumbo]

It is indeed possible. In any case, I doubt it is shapeshifted Sabine since this plot was already used in the past with the dwarven blacksmith.

Hey, no one said they had to be original. Why throw out a perfectly good ploy when it works so well.

[The Recreator]

So, what wizard spells require diamond dust to cast? I know it sounds familiar. A pinch of diamond dust...

At 7th level and below and within V's allowed schools of magic, there's Nondetection, Stoneskin, Symbol of Sleep, Symbol of Persuasion, and Symbol of Stunning.

(Yes, I know a bunch of people beat me to it. My list's more narrowed down, though. :smallbiggrin:)

[shadzar]

yeah, gonna be a while for V to be non-evil despite V's intent...

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. :smallwink:

[Ninja]

1st panel was the best part of the comic for me..... :D

[Trixie]

How ? This kind of incident triggers quite often even in non-evil parties, it's kinda traditional in tabletop RPGs...

Dealing 30-40 damage (around 6-8 times a commoner is supposed to have) to living, sentient being is non-evil?

If so, blasting a few holes in someone with AK-47 or slashing the guy's throat a few times is non-evil as well.

Again, I'm amazed what things OotS boards will try to pass as non-evil. Just ask Shojo or Kubota :smallsigh:

A wizard with 12 CON would need at least 10 levels to not be toast immediately thanks to V, by the way.

[Oxymoron]

HAHA! I loved the spell component joke in the first panel. The puns in the last comic were really bad. Good job Giant!

[T-O-E]

Trolls have regeneration. Very foolish of V to feed him.

[Teln]

As someone who's had issues with bullies in the past, I can state quite clearly that V's action is Good. :P

Seriously, it's Turban Guy's fault for Mugging The Monster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MuggingTheMonster).

[Zordrath]

Dealing 30-40 damage (around 6-8 times a commoner is supposed to have) to living, sentient being is non-evil?

If so, blasting a few holes in someone with AK-47 or slashing the guy's throat a few times is non-evil as well.
What, you've never seen violence used for comedic effect before? :smalltongue:

[TooManySecrets]

Oh noes! Now V will be taken to Spellhold!

"This is an unsanctioned use of magical energy! All involved will be held. This disturbance is over."

[Drascin]

You know, zapping the guy might not have been right, but I can't honestly find it in me to fault V, because the dude was rather punch-worthy. I'd have gone for a lesser spell, though. Around 30 damage isn't a nonissue when we're talking wizards, and the last thing V's mental health needs right now is to kill someone else.

[Guancyto]

Again, I'm amazed what things OotS boards will try to pass as non-evil. Just ask Shojo or Kubota :smallsigh:

Shojo was evil? :smallconfused:

This I have to hear.

[Zordrath]

You know, if the next strip is indeed about the moral consequences of zapping that guy, I think I'm going to wholly amorally smash something. Please let it just be a simple gag that is supposed to be laughed at... :smallsigh:

[Kaytara]

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. :smallwink:

So's the road to Heaven. :smallwink:

[Zordrath]

And the people with bad intentions simply skip both Heaven and Hell and become immortal liches :smallamused:

[Trixie]

Shojo was evil? :smallconfused:

This I have to hear.

Yes, there were long arguments that Shojo was evil and/or killing him was morally justified :smallsigh:

Another thought - these two wizards in first panel are so lame. Don't order your apprentice to buy more, buy a tiny piece of ruby for 500 GP from her, then break it in half and sell one of the halves for 500 GP back. Repeat, and you'll have a stash of free components that will last years :smalltongue:

[Dixieboy]

What is so wrong about being a warlock.

The fact that warlocks are y'know, warlocks?

[Nevitan]

I could you a shiny new bauble XD

[Zanaril]

You know, if the next strip is indeed about the moral consequences of zapping that guy, I think I'm going to wholly amorally smash something. Please let it just be a simple gag that is supposed to be laughed at... :smallsigh:

Wht if it's just the usual consequences of attacking someone in a shop?

[TooManySecrets]

Actually, the road to Hell is paved with the severed limbs of humans and elves, caked with the blood of innocents, and steamrolled by a hellfire engine.

[Aaron]

Loved the crack about spell component value in the first panel, though.

I found it funny also. Never insult a Wizard's abilities. The will save is so high that the Wizard will quickly fail it and lose control.:smallbiggrin:

[shadzar]

So's the road to Heaven. :smallwink:

No....It was clearly paved with rainbows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html). :smalltongue:

[Mastikator]

Wow, V is really easily provoked. I mean wow, some random stranger calls him weak and stupid and he explodes. Yikes.

[Dark Faun]

Considering the issues she has with self-esteem, especially after what he suffered in the previous strips, it's not entirely surprising.

Those who feared V would become as dull and boring as Durkon can now rest. :smallwink:

[Zanaril]

Wow, V is really easily provoked. I mean wow, some random stranger calls him weak and stupid and he explodes. Yikes.

V's ego is rather fragile at the moment.


he explodes.
No, other people explode.

[Doctor Xerox]

A wizard with 12 CON would need at least 10 levels to not be toast immediately thanks to V, by the way.Well, if he's not casting nondetection, which I think is an alright bet, considering he says his spell must be better than V's and nondetection was the lowest level diamond dust requiring spell I've seen posted so far, that puts him at level 7 at least, even higher if he isn't casting stoneskin, plus the fact that he's so dismissive of anothers power suggests he's a high level, so I'd put 10 gp on his survival. *This isn't a pro-good act argument, as V probably didn't think it through, and its still Evil to say, "well if I shoot this gun at this man for angering me, he may die or he may live. There is a chance he will survive, therefore, I will shoot him."

And Blackwing needs to put ranks in Concentration :smalltongue:.

[Porthos]

If so, blasting a few holes in someone with AK-47 or slashing the guy's throat a few times is non-evil as well.

Without going into this debate AGAIN the problem here is that you're trying to draw an equivalency between the combat system of DnD (and its HP mechanic) and the Real World.

In the Real World, ANY time you fire a gun or use a knife, you have a high likelihood of killing ANYONE. We're all commoners in the RL. :smallwink:

In DnD, however, a slash of a sword or a loosing of a lightning bolt may or may not kill someone. And, surprisingly enough, usually not (at least for people who adventurers meet).

Now I'm not going to argue whether or not V's action was evil or not (it probably was, as a matter of fact). That's not the point of my post. My point is that if you stick someone with a sword in the gut in RL you will almost certainly kill him or her if he or she isn't rushed to a hospital. Heck, you have a very good chance of killing that person anyway.

In DnD however, a single swipe with a sword just does "X" damage.

There. Is. No. Equivalency. Here.

No matter how much you might want there to be. :smallwink:

If you want equivalency, consider a bar fight with fists and blunt instruments (pool cue and the such). If you're not careful or if you are unlucky, you could indeed kill someone. But more often than not, you won't. And that's where you should be looking at if one wants Moral Equivalency.

At least IMNSHO. :smallsmile:

[TooManySecrets]

Wow, V is really easily provoked. I mean wow, some random stranger calls him weak and stupid and he explodes. Yikes.

He's a wizard.

[Porthos]

V's ego is rather fragile at the moment.

Quite.

I'm a little surpised at the shock over V's actions from some posters.

Look, V just went through an emotional wringer. To suggest that he should just bounce back and be a Perfectly Well Adjusted Elf That Will Shrug Off Anything That Happens To Him seem to be expecting too much.

Besides, dude might even be suffering from Post Tramatic Stress Disorder here.

Seems perfectly in character to me. Hopefully he'll be able to work out his "anger managment" issues before backsliding to much. :smallwink:

[Bibliomancer]

He's a wizard.

I am a bit disappointed that she didn't pick something less offensive, like forcecage. That would be especially embarrassing because if the other wizard didn't have any teleportation spells prepared he would be stuck there for quite a while.

I'm curious about why V chose to use a Quickened Lightening Bolt, unless she expected her adversary to succeed on a Spellcraft check and be impressed that it was a 7th level spell slot. If she wasn't going to cast another spell that round, why bother with Quicken?

[RMS Oceanic]

This comic is important: It shows that despite the massive ego bashing he's taken, V is still V. (S)he's not gonna instantly turn humble overnight. I'd hope (s)he'd work on it though.

[Ronnoc]

Ironically enough V was an infernal pact warlock for nearly half an hour. :smallamused:

[Dark Faun]

If she wasn't going to cast another spell that round, why bother with Quicken?
Because the faster she is rid of who insulted him, the better.

[Porthos]

This comic is important: It shows that despite the massive ego bashing he's taken, V is still V. (S)he's not gonna instantly turn humble overnight. I'd hope (s)he'd work on it though.

It's even more important where it shows that V still has a hair-trigger, which I don't think he really had before the last major arc. This shows that he has a lot of work to do before he can even get back to where he was before the Azure City mess started.

In other words: Intellectually he knows he needs to change. But, sometimes his emotions get the better of him.

And I suspect this "emotions will get the better of him" is going to be the major test of V's character in both the near and long term.

[Malkar Grumbo]

Because the faster she is rid of who insulted him, the better.

Although if whatever authorities in this town get wind of it, V better be able to run fast(er). Also I see this as a possible plot point. V gets in trouble, OoTS is run out of town, they blame V, bad tension is created that will effect the rest of the arc.

[Timberboar]

Short Answer: No

Long Answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooo

He was totally provoked! :smallwink:

[Porthos]

He was totally provoked! :smallwink:

I see your provoked and raise you a Disproportionate Retribution (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisproportionateRetribution). :smallwink:

One can say many things about this situation, but loosing you cool over a taunt isn't exactly something on the approved list of doing things for Exalted characters. :smalltongue:

[Zordrath]

It's not disproportionate, it's exactly what that guy was asking for. He questioned V's magical prowess, so he was clearly trying to provoke a powerful spell as a response. When someone calls you incapable of powerful magic, you don't exactly shoot a magic missile at him to prove him wrong.

Of course, whether it was wise/good/cool of V to give the guy what he was asking for is another matter.

[Murdim]

I am a bit disappointed that she didn't pick something less offensive, like forcecage. That would be especially embarrassing because if the other wizard didn't have any teleportation spells prepared he would be stuck there for quite a while."I'll make you regret questioning my arcane questioning... Mage's Magnificant Mansion !"

"How dare you call me a Warlock ? Hallucinatory Terrain !"

"I won't let anyone insult me with impunity ! Fabricate !"

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh no, V!
What does he need the diamond dust for?

[Deuce]

A Warlock, totally justified response. Though I would have gone with a slightly different and more appropriate spell. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)

[Porthos]

Oh no, V!
What does he need the diamond dust for?

It's been mentioned a few times in the thread already, but the most likely candiate is Stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm).

Other spells are mentioned here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6908894&postcount=62) :smallsmile:

[Kaytara]

Oh no, V!
What does he need the diamond dust for?

He snuffles it. Like many druggies, he's trying to get rid of his addiction to arcane magic by replacing it with another.
Maybe he needs it to cast Stoneskin or Nondetection, as well. Maybe. Let's not get crazy here.

[Porthos]

It's not disproportionate,

It's disproportionate because he is responding to a taunt with a spell.

No more, no less. :smallsmile:

[Zanaril]

He snuffles it. Like many druggies, he's trying to get rid of his addiction to arcane magic by replacing it with another.
Maybe he needs it to cast Stoneskin or Nondetection, as well. Maybe. Let's not get crazy here.

I imagine sniffing diamond dust would be akin to sniffing ground up glass. Do healing spells work for internal bleeding?

[Joerg]

Nice jokes there :smallsmile:

I've got a feeling that it will be relevant to the plot later that V can't cast Nondetection due to the lack of diamond dust.

Also, the lightning bolt is yellow. Previous lightning bolts have always been white, I think. Is the color different because it is quickened? Or is it just so it is better visible?

[Zordrath]

He snuffles it. Like many druggies, he's trying to get rid of his addiction to arcane magic by replacing it with another.

In that case, turban guy actually attempted to steer V away from his disastrous path, while V's wicked familiar encouraged drug use... things are never as they seem at first.

[Nerocite]

Was V's purchase of diamond dust morally justified?

[ericgrau]

Aaah. There's no greater insult for a wizard than being called a warlock.
How about a bard? IIRC they can cast stoneskin too.

[loser0ll]

The comic made me laugh - but the funniest thing is that the wizard who insulted V's intelligence lives in a desert but has an amphibious familiar. Are 3 HP really worth all the water used? :p

[harami2000]

Quite.

I'm a little surpised at the shock over V's actions from some posters.

Look, V just went through an emotional wringer. To suggest that he should just bounce back and be a Perfectly Well Adjusted Elf That Will Shrug Off Anything That Happens To Him seem to be expecting too much.

Besides, dude might even be suffering from Post Tramatic Stress Disorder here.
Sorry, we don't do SAN here: everything has to fit on the alignment graph, somehow. :smalltongue:

[Zordrath]

The comic made me laugh - but the funniest thing is that the wizard who insulted V's intelligence lives in a desert but has an amphibious familiar. Are 3 HP really worth all the water used? :p
If Mr Turban regularly insults other trigger-happy wizards, he needs every HP he can get.

[Dark Faun]

Although if whatever authorities in this town get wind of it, V better be able to run fast(er). Also I see this as a possible plot point. V gets in trouble, OoTS is run out of town, they blame V, bad tension is created that will effect the rest of the arc.
This is possible. Haley already trusts V much less than before (immediately thinking she lost it instead of having a little faith in him)... this might be just the beginning of an increasing distrust towards Vaarsuvius.

She really can't get a break.

[Tubal-Cain]

Huh. Before this strip, have we seen any familiars other than Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy?

[Blue Ghost]

Mr. Scruffy wasn't a familiar, was he? Unless Belkar multiclassed to Sorcerer without out knowledge?

[King of Nowhere]

It WAS morally justified :smallbiggrin:

[SPoD]

I'm curious about why V chose to use a Quickened Lightening Bolt, unless she expected her adversary to succeed on a Spellcraft check and be impressed that it was a 7th level spell slot. If she wasn't going to cast another spell that round, why bother with Quicken?

Because of all the arcane casters, only wizards can use Quicken. Sorcerers, bards, and warlocks can't. He/she was, exactly as he/she says, illustrating his/her area of expertise. It's like saying, "Can a sorcerer or warlock do THIS??"

[TooManySecrets]

V shot first.

[Nerocite]

No,Han (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1YbFnkZwZk) did.

[RdMarquis]

Would it be too mean to view that guy getting blasted as an example of physical comedy? I mean, look at his turban. It's still hanging in the air after the guy got knocked off his feet. That happened to Charlie Brown and Calvin all the time. Kid gets hit by base/snowball, and his socks fly off.

Also, are we sure that Blackwing is a raven, and not a magpie? He sure likes shiny things.

[Totally Guy]

Is Turban man bald? Turbans are for keeping long hair managable.

Whoever heard of a turban wearer that can't grow hair up there.:smallwink:

:smalltongue:

[Prowl]

The Three Stooges: clearly chaotic evil

[Assassin89]

The man with a turban really needs to think before he speaks. He also failed his knowledge skill checks.

[Manachu Boy]

You know, it just could just be a daft one-strip gag like the past few have been. Is it really that hard to just accept that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar?

*insert 'wtf i don't get the appeal of debating to the level some of you guys do' comment here*

Now, in all seriousness, are cheap gags morally justified or not? XD

[Malkar Grumbo]

This is possible. Haley already trusts V much less than before (immediately thinking she lost it instead of having a little faith in him)... this might be just the beginning of an increasing distrust towards Vaarsuvius.

She really can't get a break.

Much like the Trixs Rabbit, V was apparently born to suffer. I think this is a ploy by either the Liner Guild or the IFCC to reduce V's effectiveness on the team by distrust, and in the case of the IFCC, send V down the path of evil.

[Irbis]

Without going into this debate AGAIN the problem here is that you're trying to draw an equivalency between the combat system of DnD (and its HP mechanic) and the Real World.

In the Real World, ANY time you fire a gun or use a knife, you have a high likelihood of killing ANYONE. We're all commoners in the RL. :smallwink:

A bar where everyone packs Ak-47 or M-16, maybe.

You cut the most important figure from that post - the damage total. 40 damage in D&D is equal to lobbing grenade at someone in RL.

And you guys missed two most important points: LB is a straight line hundreds of feet long, which is going to end badly in so densely packed town.

Also, there is a huge sign: NO SPELLCASTING! in the first panel, so V also broke local enforcement rules, in addition to violent assault.

[OmegaDonut]

Because of all the arcane casters, only wizards can use Quicken. Sorcerers, bards, and warlocks can't. He/she was, exactly as he/she says, illustrating his/her area of expertise. It's like saying, "Can a sorcerer or warlock do THIS??"

What makes Quicken Spell different from other metamagics such that only wizards can use them? We've seen Xykon use Maximize Spell before.

EDIT: Never mind, saw the "no spontaneous casting" tag.

[Armitage]

Well, if he's not casting nondetection, which I think is an alright bet, considering he says his spell must be better than V's and nondetection was the lowest level diamond dust requiring
I think you're totally missing the point.

They're wizards. Whatever a wizard is doing at any point in time, is naturally more important than anything any other person, including other wizards, might be doing.

If turban guy needed the diamond dust for a spell to get his laundry clean, it would still be more important then V's quest to save the world.

[waterpenguin43]

Good to see V is still a bit evil.

And no, he was probably not morally justified in zapping the guy. Although I'd look the other way. :smalltongue:

V wasn't, but he/she lost his/her temper and blackwing was distracted.

[Tallahassee]

I had to register to comment, I just had to!

Vaarsuvius harsh response seems triggered by the fact that s\he was in fact a warlock. It hits a very soft spot.

[Murdim]

Also, there is a huge sign: NO SPELLCASTING! in the first panel, so V also broke local enforcement rules, in addition to violent assault.I stop you here ; while the rest of your message is an acceptable position, though an harsh and somewhat misplaced one in the context of a classical adventurer-centered med-fan D&D campaign world, this precise circumstance is a purely Chaotic one who doesn't increase the evilness of V's action by any means.

[David Argall]

You know, if the next strip is indeed about the moral consequences of zapping that guy, I think I'm going to wholly amorally smash something. Please let it just be a simple gag that is supposed to be laughed at...
Probably not. Now it may not be a long continuation. In fact it could be only a frame or two, but the spellcasting here needs consequences, even if it is only V mentioning his shopping was interrupted. But it is quite possible the consequences could be extensive.



lashing out in anger isn't nessasarily an evil act. People get into tavern brawls all the time, if he killed him thats another thing.
And people get arrested and thrown into jail for getting into tavern brawls all the time too. V is also in a location where this sort of behavior is not acceptable as well. We may be able to give V reduced charges, but clearly enough evil.



Look, V just went through an emotional wringer. To suggest that he should just bounce back and be a Perfectly Well Adjusted Elf That Will Shrug Off Anything That Happens To Him seem to be expecting too much.

Besides, dude might even be suffering from Post Tramatic Stress Disorder here.
We still expect him to hold his temper when some lout starts mouthing off. V is looking at moral and legal sin here.

Now we might note that Mr. Turban is not going to be able to plea self defense if he starts tossing spells around too. He provoked the fight and thus is merely one of the brawlers. But this does not clear V of brawling. He has penance to pay too.


you're trying to draw an equivalency between the combat system of DnD (and its HP mechanic) and the Real World.
Durn right. Any difference is game flaw. We have other purposes besides "realism" that to some extent excuse the flaw, but we do not reason from the imperfections in the rules back to the morals of the game. Lethal force is still deemed lethal force.


In the Real World, ANY time you fire a gun or use a knife, you have a high likelihood of killing ANYONE.
"High" is a relative term here. The miss rate in gun battles is quite embarrassing even among highly skilled experts. I recall the story of one Old West shootout where all three gunsters emptied their six-shooters at short range, and the result was one wound, which was done by a not-so-innocent bystander who snuck up behind one of the shooters. Cops are trained to empty their weapons if they start shooting because it is assumed they will miss a lot of their shots.


If you want equivalency, consider a bar fight with fists and blunt instruments (pool cue and the such). If you're not careful or if you are unlucky, you could indeed kill someone. But more often than not, you won't. And that's where you should be looking at if one wants Moral Equivalency.
Nope. We need to look at movies where the hero may fight on with a dozen bullets in him and/or beat to a pulp. The fact that it is script-impossible to kill one side without absurd amounts of effort does not sway our moral judgment of the situation. The fact it is going to take a dozen wounds to put somebody down in the story in no way limits our condemnation for his giving the guy one.

[Ridureyu]

Fry Him Fry Him Fry Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Volkov]

Only a lightning bolt? Why not a greater illusion? Or summon world class debator who favors your side VII? Or summon godzilla/other giant monster.

[Pyron]

And you guys missed two most important points: LB is a straight line hundreds of feet long, which is going to end badly in so densely packed town.

Also, there is a huge sign: NO SPELLCASTING! in the first panel, so V also broke local enforcement rules, in addition to violent assault.

I wonder if the local authorities are going to be called in...
By local authorities, I mean Lord T.'s men

[Gamerlord]

Shiny!!!! Me Like Shiny!!!! Me Like Comic!! You No Take Diamond Dust!!!!

[Pokemaster]

I wonder if Turban Guy's spell was worth 10d6 damage with an obviously failed Reflex save and possibly a dead familiar.

[Kobold-Bard]

Yay speedy updates.

Good comic, looks like V is returning to his Evoker roots. Keep up the good work.

[Selene]

Meh, I don't think what V did was all that evil. They're cartoons. They have different physics regarding injury. Bugs Bunny totally would have done the same thing.

[yanmaodao]

I am a bit disappointed that she didn't pick something less offensive, like forcecage. That would be especially embarrassing because if the other wizard didn't have any teleportation spells prepared he would be stuck there for quite a while.

I'm curious about why V chose to use a Quickened Lightening Bolt, unless she expected her adversary to succeed on a Spellcraft check and be impressed that it was a 7th level spell slot. If she wasn't going to cast another spell that round, why bother with Quicken?

Good question, but I think that calling out the name of the spell is a real verbal component of spellcasting in the OOTSverse, not just a clarification for the readers. Off the top of my head are when Haley recognized the Dancing Lights spell cast by that hobgoblin wizard, and the "Fire Storm!" gag back in Cliffport. There was also Xykon recognizing that V cast Quickened Chain Lightning and not just regular Chain Lightning from his comment about 10th level spell slots, but you could say Xykon's Spellcraft would be more than good enough. Regardless, there have been more examples than the ones listed here. So if V wanted to impress, he probably succeeded.

Also, it's an RP matter as well. We don't know that V has Forcecage, and she's an instinctive blaster.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Bugs Bunny totally would have done the same thing.

Bugs Bunny is a mean-spirited little *******. Kind of like Turban Guy.

[Berserk Monk]

Woah! Huge slam against sorcerers eh Rich.

[GreatWyrmGold]

A few thoughts:

1. Oh, no!
2. Still suffering from having three epic evil souls bound to yours, I see?
3. Blackwing, Blackwing, Blackwing...
4. What was my other thought?
Edit: 5. Oh, yeah. What's wrong with warlocks?

[Ridureyu]

We want blood.

[Eric O'Really]

So, what wizard spells require diamond dust to cast? I know it sounds familiar. A pinch of diamond dust...

i am shure somebody already answered this, but stoneskin. i know it, because i played a wizard in 3.5, who used that spell a lot. im glad spell components have been dumped these days. it was just getting silly.

you have been spending most of your gold, you got on your adventures to cast your damn spells. wizards needed spell components worth up to thousands of gold to tie their shoes, it was hilarious.

[Tobrian]

Dealing 30-40 damage (around 6-8 times a commoner is supposed to have) to living, sentient being is non-evil?

Yes. That's exactly what adventurers do all the time when they kill opponents that are "living, sentient beings". Hey, you can even slaughter a dragon, eat its flesh and then wear it's skin as armor! Now imagine the outcry if a lizardman walked around wearing a human-skin suit... *cough*

D&D rules do not give you a black mark on your alignment for the act of killing per se, even if the person you kill is of good alignment, despite all that talk about good and evil being objective forces in the D&D cosmology and universe. (Your intentions, however, are another matter.) Otherwise paladins and archons would be unable to smite anything except for the occasional undead or demon.

Now, killing someone merely for pissing you off is a bit of a tricky one...


If so, blasting a few holes in someone with AK-47 or slashing the guy's throat a few times is non-evil as well.

Again, I'm amazed what things OotS boards will try to pass as non-evil. Just ask Shojo or Kubota :smallsigh:

This has nothing to do with "the boards". It's the inate hypocrisy of the D&D system. Hobgoblin who kills a human = evil, and an act that marks him for deserved slaughtering [!sarcasm!]. Human who kills a hobgoblin = not evil.

Not to mention, if you compare the list of spells that are labelled "evil" for rule purposes with those not labelled evil, you'll clearly see that D&D authors have an odd prejudice against anything to do with undead - which can't have to do with negative energy being considered inherently evil since there are several spells that are necromancy or use negative energy that seem to be perfectly fine to use, such as Chill Touch or the paladin spell Mark of Justice. *sigh* Not to mention Arrows of Slaying.
Don't get me started, or this rant will get very long and rapidly off-topic.

Furthermore, spells that set someone on fire (fireball), melt someone's face with acid (acid arrow), make his limbs rot off (wither limb), curse him (bestow curse) or mind-rape him (dominate person) are totally fine to use! [!sarcasm!]

Just as -by the rules as written- if a rogue wants to use poison, that is considered an for-NPCs-use-only evil act (even if it's drow poison that only induces unconsciousness). But a cleric or druid casting the spell Poison or a druid transforming himself into a poisonous snake isn't. :smallannoyed:

Forgive me my little rant, but I have a gamemaster who strictly forbids my rogue to use poison to take down opponents without having to kill them, but stabbing them dead is totally ok. Huh? He claims poison use is evil because poison left lying around could kill innocent bystanders, for example a contact poison on a door handle. How that applies to a poisoned arrow fired at a specific target is beyond my comprehension. It's not as if there's a rule anymore for accidentally hitting someone else when firing into melee.

Again, these are not my personal convictions about wha constitutes moral and immoral acts, merely the bizarro-world rules D&D characters live by.

[Janmorel]

Much like the Trixs Rabbit, V was apparently born to suffer. I think this is a ploy by either the Liner Guild or the IFCC to reduce V's effectiveness on the team by distrust, and in the case of the IFCC, send V down the path of evil.

V just needs to figure out which Skywalker he's going to channel. Will his brush with the Dark Side leave him sadder, but wiser? Or will the dark path forever dominate V's destiny?

(Alternately, we may be taking this development a little too seriously. V has always had (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html) an (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html) unnecessarily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html) violent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0317.html) streak.)

[Justyn]

I see your provoked and raise you a Disproportionate Retribution (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisproportionateRetribution). :smallwink:

One can say many things about this situation, but loosing you cool over a taunt isn't exactly something on the approved list of doing things for Exalted characters. :smalltongue:

I dunno, I could totally see a high-Valor Solar Exalt doing just that.

...

Oh, wait, you meant "exalted" as in the gooder-than-good alignment from Book of Exalted Deeds, didn't you?

[dragongirl13]

Wow... V really got mad.

Hahaha, Blackwing likes shiny stuff. :smallbiggrin:

Warlocks are pretty awesome... but being a wizard and getting called one must be infuriating.

What V should have said, though, is "Your logic is extremely flawed - Warlocks do not require spell components in the use of their invocations."

Ah, nevermind, it's funnier this way.

[Dark Faun]

V has always had (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html) an (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html) unnecessarily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html) violent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0317.html) streak.)
And that's why we love her so much.

[Tobrian]

V just needs to figure out which Skywalker he's going to channel.

This joke just made my day. :smallbiggrin:


Only a lightning bolt? Why not a greater illusion? Or summon world class debator who favors your side VII? Or summon godzilla/other giant monster.

V is an evoker specialist, so lighning bolts are right up his alley. I have never seen V cast an Illusion spell other than invisibility, not that I remember. And we know for a fact that one of V's two forbidden schools is Conjuration... because he complained that he cannot learn to cast teleport because during the switch from 3.0 rules to 3.5 the teleport spell was moved from Transmutation to Conjuration school. So, no summoning monsters for V.

The other school's probably necromancy, since V has cast scrying (Divination), Protection from Arrows (Abjuration), Enlarge Person (Transmutation) and Crushing Despair (Enchantment) in the course of the comic.

Of course, since for some bizarre reason Mage Armor is now part of Conjuration school V is screwed because he lacks the basic protective spell every other 1st level wizard knows. (Seriously, wtf, it's a protective, force-based spell... forcecage is Evocation, and shield is Abjuration...I just don't understand the reasoning of D&D 3.5 authors, even though I play 3.5.)

[Needle]

V :smallredface:

And I would say nothing more, but people would accuse me of spam :smalltongue: Nothing to discuss here, just celebrate V is V.

[Crafty Cultist]

All I can say is if the store erupts into a massive arcane free-for-all I will be a happy man:smallbiggrin:

[Draquenoire]

First two bubbles were classic OOTS humor!

[Tobrian]

The comic made me laugh - but the funniest thing is that the wizard who insulted V's intelligence lives in a desert but has an amphibious familiar. Are 3 HP really worth all the water used? :p

There are desert toads, you know. Look up the Sonoran Desert Toad (Bufo alvarius) or the Australian Cyclorana platycephala. Some toads in arid regions are restricted to oases, but other can go into heat-hibernation (called estivation) during the dry season. Cyclorana can store water in its bladder and can survive droughts for months (or up to 5 years) in a burrow below the ground, where the air is colder and more humid than on the surface, wrapped up in a cocoon of secreted slime.


It's not disproportionate, it's exactly what that guy was asking for. He questioned V's magical prowess, so he was clearly trying to provoke a powerful spell as a response. When someone calls you incapable of powerful magic, you don't exactly shoot a magic missile at him to prove him wrong.

Exactly. I feel I have to come to V's defense here: Had V been a knight or samurai or similar class, heck if he had been a barbarian or swashbuckler, and some arrogant, obnoxious loudmouth had persistently harrassed, provoked and insulted him in public DESPITE having been warned repeatedly to stop it, I dare say no-one would have talked about alignment had V wipped out his blade and challenged the loudmouth to a duel and cut the moron down where he stood!

If V was a knight, in fact he would be honor-bound to react to these insults, and if Mr. Loudmouth cannot defend himself that would be his problem. It's a bit of a double standard if you ask me.

Of course, flying off the handle like that in choleric rage does not award V major coolness points. :smallfrown:

[Blaznak]

Its great to see the other wizard had a toad on his shoulder. He kind of reminds me of an old Fineous Fingers character - a rich merchant that impaled Fineous on his sword. Go figure!

[Phexar]

Very clever, V's anger was triggered because being a Warlock is quite similar to what he went through with his Soul Splices. Sensitive point for him there.

[Lerky]

I can't help but feel that blackwing's talking is just V's conscience or something portraying itself through the bird into the crazed Vaarsuvius' mind.

[StClair]

So I guess the other guy is going to find out if that diamond dust is really worth 10d6 lightning damage, on top of the gp.

[Somniloquist]

This isn't a good sign for V's alignment/mental health. V may be trying to improve since the splice, but they clearly have a long way to go.

The strip's so early in the book that this won't cause major trouble, but how? That was assault inside a shop with several witnesses (and that's ignoring all the epileptic trees of Turban Guy working for the Linear Guild or whoever).

I like the idea of Blackwing being the one to keep Vaarsuvius in check, if that's going to be his new role.

[Trobby]

Upon review of this thread, I can see how getting incited to rage by being called "Warlock" might get V on edge, what with it being uncomfortably close to his most recent unpleasant experience.

I guess I kinda expected better from V though...ah well...there's always another strip.

[Aerysil]

That's the funniest first cell I've read in a long time :)

[lothos]

Great Comic, I especially loved the first panel joke about the 500gp worth of Rubies. I know lots of people have already mentioned that, but I wanted to mention it too. It was "priceless".


I have chosen to find all the spells that use diamonds as a material component. Stone skin, Restoration, Greater warding, Raise dead spells, magic jar, Protection from spells, Symbol of X spells, Undead to Death, and the one that i just found out that will be most likely be use by V. Nondetection. Short description all spell that try to find or detect information about that target don't work. Like what alignment V is.

You don't think Undeath to Death might be useful against Xykon ? Or at least worth a try ?

Also as Saph said, Restoration... now they know that Xkyon loves to spam Energy Drain, Restoration seems a really good plan, a backup in case the mass protection from negative energy doesn't work out or gets dispelled. However they know Xykon likes to scry on people too so maybe Nondetection is worthwhile.


(snip)
In the Real World, ANY time you fire a gun or use a knife, you have a high likelihood of killing ANYONE. We're all commoners in the RL. :smallwink:
(snip)

Who are you calling common :-)

But seriously, I totally agree with you, what a pointless debate if we have threads like "Was V's attack morally justified ?", "This proves V is Evil...". I mean if people want to start those threads, I would never dream of trying to stop them. But not a thread I want to post to or read.


This comic is important: It shows that despite the massive ego bashing he's taken, V is still V. (S)he's not gonna instantly turn humble overnight. I'd hope (s)he'd work on it though.

Yes, Nice scope for character development without it feeling forced. I hope (s)he works on it too. I have enough emotionally invested in the character of V that I want to care about him/her and respect him/her.


Because of all the arcane casters, only wizards can use Quicken. Sorcerers, bards, and warlocks can't. He/she was, exactly as he/she says, illustrating his/her area of expertise. It's like saying, "Can a sorcerer or warlock do THIS??"

Good point, unless it were:
A Metamagic Specialist Sorcerer from PH2 (3.5 edition)... but then they don't get a familiar... but I guess he could have multi classed to take 1 level of Wizard... Very unlikely...
An epic level sorcerer who has "wasted" a feat on Quicken, then taken the "Automatic Quicken" epic feat at least once (to auto quicken up to 3rd level spells). Again, unlikely.

But I think you are right, that's the subtext of why V chose a quickened spell.



(snip)
Durn right. Any difference is game flaw. We have other purposes besides "realism" that to some extent excuse the flaw, but we do not reason from the imperfections in the rules back to the morals of the game. Lethal force is still deemed lethal force. (snip)

I really don't think anyone should have the expectation that any game should ever perfectly emulate the moral complexities of real life. I mean assuming you believe the universe we live in is real and not some kind of Matrix-like construct or a simulation run for the benefit of future historians, no game that we can devise can approach the complexity and nuances of real life.

I mean look at the game chess. It's a fine game with a long history and countless human-years devoted to studying it strategy. Yet no one would argue that it in any way is an accurate emulation of real life. In chess pawns get killed. I am happy to accept that. It doesn't mean I think footsoldiers should charge off and sacrifice themselves so a general can sit safely in HQ sipping port. That difference is not a flaw in chess.

D&D is just a game to me, one I used to play a lot and enjoyed. Sure, it is very different to chess in that we play a single character each and identify that character as "I" a lot of the time. But it doesn't mean that you should have the expectation that the game is an accurate reflection of real life.

I fully accept that some people want to run campaigns where the tone of the campaign is that where every action is examined in a spotlight of compliance to certain moral standards. Other campaigns do not, it's up to the players and DM to set the tone of the campaign.

So far as I'm aware, the game doesn't say "if you use lethal force you are evil" or "if you use lethal force it's morally questionable, no matter what the circumstances". Yes.... it DOES say that using lethal force in some situations isn't acceptable as part of a good alignment, like against innocents.

If you believe (as I assume you do from the rest of your post) that V was morally unjustified in using Lethal force on this occasion... well I actually agree with you :-)

My opinion is that V clearly lost it and overreacted. I'm not interested in debating if this means he is evil (feel free to do so yourself of course) because I don't really care very much about that. I think it's all relative anyway. I do think he overreacted though, whatever that means for his alignment.


(snip)
We still expect him to hold his temper when some lout starts mouthing off. V is looking at moral and legal sin here.

Holding one's temper is an entirely reasonable expectation for a civilised humanoid. V really should be able to hold his tempter and not be provoked. Of course it was very funny that he couldn't and made a great comic strip.

However I feel that your comment about Sin would depend on which god or gods have jurisdiction over the Western continent and how they define sin. Again, this is a different set of rules to the real world. It doesn't matter what your real world beliefs are here (and lets not get in to that) but I believe the gods of the western continent are different from what anyone believes in the real world.... so their rules about sin will presumably be different too.

I mean if you worship a demon or some evil god then they probably don't have 10 commandments that include "Thou shalt not kill". It's probably got something more like "Thou shalt not show mercy or charity to anyone you can sacrifice to me in an evil ritual, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH"........

Again, I don't think of either of those differences as a flaws. It's part of the game for me and it makes the game interesting. I do understand that you are not suggesting D&D should perfectly emulate everything in the real world. As I understand it, your position is that deviations from what you believe are real world morals are a flaw in the game. If I'm misrepresenting your opinion, I do apologise, I've read your post carefully to try and make sure I do understand what you are saying. Please do let me know if that's the case. However if that is your opinion, I disagree with you.


Meh, I don't think what V did was all that evil. They're cartoons. They have different physics regarding injury. Bugs Bunny totally would have done the same thing.

Great (and concise) example of why not everything has to emulate the real world. I loved Bugs Bunny.... but my favourite was Tom and Jerry... real world physics (and chemistry and biology) be dammed ! :-)


We want blood.

Why, are you a vampire ?


This joke just made my day. :smallbiggrin:

V is an evoker specialist, so lighning bolts are right up his alley. I have never seen V cast an Illusion spell other than invisibility, not that I remember. And we know for a fact that one of V's two forbidden schools is Conjuration... because he complained that he cannot learn to cast teleport because during the switch from 3.0 rules to 3.5 the teleport spell was moved from Transmutation to Conjuration school. So, no summoning monsters for V.
(snip)

He/she cast (or more precisely dismissed) Veil in Strip 584 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).

[Klose_the_Sith]

That was awesome :smallbiggrin:

The Giant is making one badass comeback for OOTS

Also? Even the Gods have tempers in OOTS >.>

[Wanderer]

I don't think any of my characters would have put up with this guy being an ass to them like this. Who does he think he is? He's not even a PC. I probably would have gone for a maximized fireball myself (set it off far enough behind him to hit him and not me) and damn the bystanders. Or the one spell that I would really love to have brought in from Neverwinter Nights: Isaac's Greater Missile Storm. (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_greater_missile_storm) Chew on 40d6 worth of force damage, jerk!

[geekwraith]

Can't really blame you, Blackwing. Who couldn't use a shiny new bauble or 83465274389085723?

[Tobrian]

We still expect him to hold his temper when some lout starts mouthing off.

Why, exactly? :smallconfused:

Why should V confirm to emotional impuls control standards suitable to Star Trek The Next Generation? It's not exactly an enlightened society V lives in.


V is looking at moral and legal sin here.

The words "legal" and "sin" really don't go together. One is secular, the other a purely religious concept.


But this does not clear V of brawling. He has penance to pay too.

Again with the religious terms. V is not a cleric or paladin.


(snip) We have other purposes besides "realism" that to some extent excuse the flaw, but we do not reason from the imperfections in the rules back to the morals of the game. Lethal force is still deemed lethal force.

*sigh* This discussion proves that the comic has been "dark and deadly serious" for so long that it is impossible for most of the audience to accept the sudden reverting back to a "light and comic-y" tone at the start of what is going to be Book 5, despite the last few pages being intentionally light and humorous. Especially as online this page follows right on the heels of a "V gets corrupted by infernal power" story arc. Maybe it will feel different when the books are in print. :smallsigh:


Nope. We need to look at movies where the hero may fight on with a dozen bullets in him and/or beat to a pulp. The fact that it is script-impossible to kill one side without absurd amounts of effort does not sway our moral judgment of the situation. The fact it is going to take a dozen wounds to put somebody down in the story in no way limits our condemnation for his giving the guy one.

Hold that thought about action movies for a moment, because these characters live in an action movie/fantasy film reality, not in an episode of Law & Order. When Indiana Jones pulled a gun and shot the guy shoving off with the knives (I'm sure you know which scene I'm referring to), I bet no-one including you booed and hissed and yelled "murderer!" at the screen. Same goes for numerous Jedi cutting arms off nameless extras. Give it a rest, please.

[Draz74]

You know, it just could just be a daft one-strip gag like the past few have been. Is it really that hard to just accept that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar?

This. This with every strip at the beginning of a book.

[markwisski]

A few thoughts:

1. Oh, no!
2. Still suffering from having three epic evil souls bound to yours, I see?
3. Blackwing, Blackwing, Blackwing...
4. What was my other thought?
Edit: 5. Oh, yeah. What's wrong with warlocks?

To 5: I thought the same thing, since I've being playing a Warforged Warlock in my 4e game for the past year. So I looked up the 3.5 version of the warlock, and I totally get it.

3.5 Warlocks are really different. They're from the Complete Arcane supplement, and they do the whole "inherent magic" shtick of the sorcerer, but even more so. Technically, they don't even cast spells. Their magic only gives them "spell-like-abilities." Overall, their magic is effective, but cruder and more limited than the regular spellcasting classes. V really would consider that an insult, given hir approach to magic.

Also, unlike 4e, 3.5 warlocks don't gain their magic from forming pacts, so the folks who say that V was reacting to the jab because it reminded hir of the Soul Splice are mistaken, I think.

[EleventhHour]

While you all argue about V's alignment and what she should/shouldn't have done, I ponder something else ; What does V need those diamonds for, anyway?

[Ronfar]

Just as -by the rules as written- if a rogue wants to use poison, that is considered an for-NPCs-use-only evil act (even if it's drow poison that only induces unconsciousness). But a cleric or druid casting the spell Poison or a druid transforming himself into a poisonous snake isn't. :smallannoyed:

Forgive me my little rant, but I have a gamemaster who strictly forbids my rogue to use poison to take down opponents without having to kill them, but stabbing them dead is totally ok. Huh? He claims poison use is evil because poison left lying around could kill innocent bystanders, for example a contact poison on a door handle. How that applies to a poisoned arrow fired at a specific target is beyond my comprehension. It's not as if there's a rule anymore for accidentally hitting someone else when firing into melee.

One of the relevant sourcebooks (I think it may have been Book of Exalted Deeds) claims that using poison that does ability score damage is evil because it is "cruel". But, yeah, that's a bit of a stupid rule.

[Malek2991]

You don't think Undeath to Death might be useful against Xykon ? Or at least worth a try ?

Restoration seems a really good plan, a backup in case the mass protection from negative energy doesn't work out or gets dispelled. However they know Xykon likes to scry on people too so maybe Nondetection is worthwhile.


Undeath to Death a Necromancy spell, which V can't cast without the Soul Splice, so Undeath to Death is not an option

Restoration is not on the SOR/WIZ spell list, so V can't cast it. Durkon can however. (It's only available to Clerics/Paladins).

[Draken]

Did anyone already comment that the guy in green robes in front of Vaarsuvius is missing his boots in the third to last pannel?

[RoninAngel]

That was F--ing gangster. I am totally going to sig that line about archmages and self inselt fan fiction. :smallbiggrin:
I also really like the haggle joke. It was awsome!

[TehSheen]

Extremely an epic strip. Good one Rich!

[David Argall]

You know, it just could just be a daft one-strip gag like the past few have been. Is it really that hard to just accept that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar?

It could be, but both NCPB and W&XP mix several foreshadowing strips with one-shot deals at their start. [Exactly how many varies with definition.] Our just finished book just jumped into the story instead & didn't start with a quiet urban chapter.
It thus seems very likely that one, if not more, of the 5 strips we have seen recently will have a followup. [My own guess is 3, kids, invisible bird, and the current fight.]
A lot of our cigars are more than just cigars.



Why should V confirm to emotional impuls control standards suitable to Star Trek The Next Generation? It's not exactly an enlightened society V lives in.

Because emotional impulse control is necessary in any society, all the way down to ants, wolves, etc, etc. To some extent, a small society can get by without it because the members can memorize who they need to cower from and who they can bully, but even then, there are apt to be too many marginal cases that result in expensive fights. In a big society the number of possible fights increases at a fantastic rate. Either people avoid fights or the society falls apart.



The words "legal" and "sin" really don't go together. One is secular, the other a purely religious concept.
The distinction is trivial. "Sin" here is translated as "a bad thing". "Legal" just defines who defines what is and is not a bad thing.



Again with the religious terms. V is not a cleric or paladin.
And again with a quibble, which can be counter-quibbled in that any believer can do penance without being either cleric or paladin. And the believer does not need to believe in a religion, or really even believe in anything [except that the penance will show contrition on the wrong-doer's part.]



Hold that thought about action movies for a moment, because these characters live in an action movie/fantasy film reality, not in an episode of Law & Order. When Indiana Jones pulled a gun and shot the guy shoving off with the knives (I'm sure you know which scene I'm referring to), I bet no-one including you booed and hissed and yelled "murderer!" at the screen.

Why should they? The victim was attempting to block the path with lethal violence. The hero is under no obligation to fight fair any more than the cops are when they get a dozen cops to arrest one man. Since there was no obvious reasonable alternative to violence, there was no problem with using effective violence.


Had V been a knight or samurai or similar class, heck if he had been a barbarian or swashbuckler, and some arrogant, obnoxious loudmouth had persistently harrassed, provoked and insulted him in public DESPITE having been warned repeatedly to stop it, I dare say no-one would have talked about alignment had V wipped out his blade and challenged the loudmouth to a duel and cut the moron down where he stood!
Now note you say "challenged". Our fighter type must give the opponent fair warning that he is about to attack, and so must V.



I really don't think anyone should have the expectation that any game should ever perfectly emulate the moral complexities of real life.
Which is not claimed here. The question here is what to do when there is a difference between game and "reality", to follow the mores of "reality" or try to create some based on the faulty game mechanics.



Sin would depend on which god or gods have jurisdiction over the Western continent and how they define sin.
D&D rules make it clear that the gods do not define sin. Something is good because it is good, not because some god says so. The Western gods must play by the rules, not change them.

[oxinabox]

I know hows V feels.
Done the same thing

[BriarHobbit]

That was awesome!

[Liwen]

A wizard with 12 CON would need at least 10 levels to not be toast immediately thanks to V, by the way.

If he's a smart wizard (something tells me he not much of a big brain, it's not particularly smart to provoke a wizard of unknown level into blasting a spell in your face just to get some diamond dust.) then he should have acquired constitution boosting magic items over his adventures. That's what I always do with my spellcasters, because you can never go wrong with more hit points. Especially when your group doesn't understand the need to protect the casters!

But then again, I don't think this fella is that smart, so yeah I give him 80% chance of still being alive. I would have gone 50/50 if random murdering wasn't such a significant plot device this story doesn't really need right now.

[RoninAngel]

That was awesome!

Yes, I agree. :smallsmile:

If I was V, I would be hard pressed to not blast that fellow a few rounds earlier... :smallwink:

[Raenir Salazar]

Now note you say "challenged". Our fighter type must give the opponent fair warning that he is about to attack, and so must V.



He did. Talking is a free action remember.

[Crod]

I wonder if Turban Guy's spell was worth 10d6 damage with an obviously failed Reflex save and possibly a dead familiar.

Or why not a successful reflex save? Although dodging backwards is a bit uncommon. I think he must have some ace up his sleeve - you don't provoke a fight like that unless you can take the heat.

[hendrake]

I like Blackwing but he sure gets distracted a lot.

"Here Blackwing, throw this bauble in the squishy thing"
- "Ooooooh, pretty."

"No V, don't let him get your...Ooooooh, pretty."

Oh, and...


Cops are trained to empty their weapons if they start shooting because it is assumed they will miss a lot of their shots.

The liability implications of such training would be heart-stopping ("Yeah, he was down but I kept shooting because that's how I was trained"). People (cops, bad guys, armed citizens, whatever) tend to shoot a lot because it's so easy to empty a magazine thanks to semi-autos. One can fire a dozen rounds in seconds - but yes, absolutely, most of them will miss (the national average for cops ["trained professionals"] in a shootout is about one in seven hits - at a range of somewhere between three and seven yards, for the most part).

[Selene]

Bugs Bunny is a mean-spirited little *******. Kind of like Turban Guy.

He is indeed.

http://www.iconarchive.com/icons/sykonist/looney-tunes/Bugs-Bunny-Carrot-48x48.png : Ain't I a stinker?

But I don't think anyone would call him evil.


*Yeah, I know. Someone is going to call him evil any minute now.*

[Protecar]

This is one of the best comics in a while! I laughed so hard on so much of it! Simply glorious. I love that V blasted the guy. :smallbiggrin:

[spargel]

D&D rules make it clear that the gods do not define sin. Something is good because it is good, not because some god says so. The Western gods must play by the rules, not change them.

That's probably because there's multiple gods.

Something in D&D is good because the universe says it is good.

[Joerg]

BTW, what spell requires rubies worth 500 gp?

[Hands_Of_Blue]

Nice comic.

Is this the first time lightning has been yellow instead of white? I can't recall.

[eilandesq]

A couple of thoughts:

--V's shot at a University of Oregon football scholarship just took a hit;

--if Turban Guy dies, V has a good defense against murder one--if V had intended to kill Turban Guy, the sequence would have been "Disintegrate! Quickened Gust of Wind!" Clearly not premeditated murder. ]:-)

[Trixie]

Exactly. I feel I have to come to V's defense here: Had V been a knight or samurai or similar class, heck if he had been a barbarian or swashbuckler, and some arrogant, obnoxious loudmouth had persistently harrassed, provoked and insulted him in public DESPITE having been warned repeatedly to stop it, I dare say no-one would have talked about alignment had V wipped out his blade and challenged the loudmouth to a duel and cut the moron down where he stood!

If V was a knight, in fact he would be honor-bound to react to these insults, and if Mr. Loudmouth cannot defend himself that would be his problem. It's a bit of a double standard if you ask me.

No, it would be equal to this knight stabbing someone in the back because he was insulted :smallannoyed:

And since when knight is honor bound to duel and kill someone unable to defend himself? That would be a parody of everything the class stands for, I don't think even most evil alignments (with the exception of CE) would sunk that low.

[Killer Angel]

Oh, V. you will never change. Even your familiar has more wisdom than you... :smallsigh:
(at least, 'til the point when shiny bubbles are not involved)

[Trixie]

It could be, but both NCPB and W&XP mix several foreshadowing strips with one-shot deals at their start. [Exactly how many varies with definition.] Our just finished book just jumped into the story instead & didn't start with a quiet urban chapter.
It thus seems very likely that one, if not more, of the 5 strips we have seen recently will have a followup. [My own guess is 3, kids, invisible bird, and the current fight.]

I bet gophers will also be mentioned at some point :smallwink:

Because emotional impulse control is necessary in any society, all the way down to ants, wolves, etc, etc. To some extent, a small society can get by without it because the members can memorize who they need to cower from and who they can bully, but even then, there are apt to be too many marginal cases that result in expensive fights. In a big society the number of possible fights increases at a fantastic rate. Either people avoid fights or the society falls apart.

Yup. Either there is control, or there is simple anarchy. Also, elves are supposed to be more civilized than norm.

The distinction is trivial. "Sin" here is translated as "a bad thing". "Legal" just defines who defines what is and is not a bad thing.

Nope. Sin is purely a religious concept. Yes, it can mean bad things, but that is no requirement, only religious dogma matters. Example - eating meat in certain days is sin, but you'd be hard pressed to find it 'evil'.

Why should they? The victim was attempting to block the path with lethal violence. The hero is under no obligation to fight fair any more than the cops are when they get a dozen cops to arrest one man. Since there was no obvious reasonable alternative to violence, there was no problem with using effective violence.

Indeed. That doesn't mean what Indiana did is good, but at least he was justified by the circumstances. V wasn't, and for three different reasons, too.

Now note you say "challenged". Our fighter type must give the opponent fair warning that he is about to attack, and so must V.

With what OotS boards sometimes see as evil, I bet you'll find some people who will claim that if that fighter type killed his mother first, then forced the offender to [insert appropriately bad thing that can be done to her body] for the slight, someone would be arguing that this is standard adventurer/comical behavior - and therefore not evil :smallsigh:

[Neopolis]

I don't care if it's morally justified or not, that guy had it coming...

[Prak]

The title is hilarious. XD After I did a google search, of course. Jiminy Cricket is the little cricket in Disney's Pinnoccio, who, not to put too fine a point on it, acts as his conscience, if I recall correctly. :smallbiggrin: The joke being that V's conscience is easily disabled by shiny bits of glass.

My conscious is easily disabled by cheap shots and the thought that they'd burn people like me at the stake a few centuries ago...

[Omergideon]

V lost his temper and what he did was wrong. However this being a gag strip (IMO) I am willing to assume he was not killing the guy. I would put it as equivalent to punching a guy in the face when he has insulted you. This is assuming of cours that neither one of them expected the man to die. Losing your temper isn't cool, but it is not the same as murder.

Anyway, a very funny strip. The last one was less so, but this was all out hilarious. Plus on top of the humour we got to see an insight into what will evidently be the major relationship dynamic between V and Blackwing. Blackwing is there to help keep V humble and under control, even if he sucks at the Job.

So great strip.

[Ehra]

Retaliating against the guy was not an evil act, it was chaotic. The guy obviously wasn't a commoner. If V had cast Disintegrate or something then there'd be a point, but a Quickened Lightning bolt?

Like someone else pointed out, saying V was evil is like saying the Three Stooges are evil.

[HandofShadows]

V still has many anger mangement issues to work out it seems. But at least V is trying. On the other hand, the guy was asking for it and I hope that he got a lot more than he expected.

[Sijo]

Well, I'm still not laughing, but at least this strip was actually amusing.

And believe it or not, I'm actually *glad* that V still has temper problems. It reminds me of happier times before infernal deals and familicides and such.

On the other hand, having Blackwing be *smarter* than V is annoying. V used to be the one who talked down to the others, now he has a *bird* telling him what to do? I liked it better when it didn't speak.

And no, I don't think V killed the guy. He would have to be stupid to provoke another mage without having the means to protect himself. That and this is a gag strip; he'll be OK. V still lost, though; he'll probably be kicked out without the diamond dust now (What is that for, anyway? Anybody know?)

[silvadel]

Blackwing and Celia have a similar problem with shiny objects.

[Tyris]

Heh, heh, heh... could V have said "Elminster" any louder?

[Conuly]

On the other hand, having Blackwing be *smarter* than V is annoying. V used to be the one who talked down to the others, now he has a *bird* telling him what to do? I liked it better when it didn't speak.

Blackwing isn't smarter than V in the way V values, he just has more common sense. V knows a lot, and doesn't mind showing it, but has never been known for having good judgment.

[Expeditious]

I almost dropped after reading the line "self-insertation fan-fiction". Priceless! :smallbiggrin:

Was a lightning bolt justified? Perfectly. I don't see it as an evil deed as opposed to a chaotic reaction. The Turban Guy wasn't simply asking for it; he was pleading for it. (Not very long ago I found myself in a similar real-life situation, and even though I managed to keep my cool, boy, raining arcane destruction would have been much more satisfying.)

I bet you a cart of gophers that the Turban Guy is quite high-level and a single lightning bolt is not going to kill him, regardless of him failing his reflex save.

My only concern is that V is most likely thrown out of the magic store and thus is left without the ingredients he was supposed to buy. Is it too much to ask that there is another ingredient shop in the desert? :smalltongue:

[Barlen]

I do love that V is still the arrogant wizard.

That being said, lightning bolt is technically an area of affet spell (120 ft line) that can break through barriers (a tent wall perhaps). I hope no one was standing behind the guy in the turban for a long ways.

If not, well Invisibility to a safe spot and disguise self out of town. :smallbiggrin:

[Moogleking]

I predict a comic of the order about to leave, then someone asks "Hey, wheres V?", leading to a cutaway of him in jail.

[Moff Chumley]

:smallbiggrin:

:vaarsuvius:'s alignment doesn't ultimately matter. It's about being a badass.

[Eran of Arcadia]

I wonder if the magic store not only forbid spellcasting but had some sort of barrier or whatever in place to limit its effects.

[Dark Faun]

I predict a comic of the order about to leave, then someone asks "Hey, wheres V?", leading to a cutaway of him in jail.
That would be funny. :smallbiggrin:

[Aimbot]

Please, it's clear from the comic that the man was egging V into losing her temper because he expected to be much more powerful then her. He wanted her to cast Magic missile, get kicked out, then have to go and explain to her boss that she didn't manage to get the diamond dust he asked for. He's a simple bully. The fact that he picked the wrong mark isn't V's fault, and she both warned him and tried to resist his barbs.

Dude deserved it.


Particularly because he's obviously a replacement for the Linear Guild.

[Watcher]

Wow. A new comic, and 5 discussion threads pop up. We have no lives.

[David Argall]

He did. Talking is a free action remember.
But his words do not amount to the needed warning. Granted, Turban has much the manner of the bully saying "Hit me with your best shot", but V still needs to play by the rules and that means not casting spells indoors and not casting without giving full and complete warning.



you don't provoke a fight like that unless you can take the heat.
Or unless you think you can. A whole lot of people think that just because they are above the average, they are above everybody. So they start pushing everybody around, which works until they try to push somebody way above average... Then they get knocked back out of shoes and/or turban.



--if Turban Guy dies, V has a good defense against murder one--if V had intended to kill Turban Guy, the sequence would have been "Disintegrate! Quickened Gust of Wind!" Clearly not premeditated murder.
If you use a potentially lethal weapon, the law presumes intent. With a good lawyer, you might be able to get off if the chance of death was trivially low, but here the spell would obviously kill the vast majority of the population. While V can assume this loudmouth is above average, he can't assume he is above 50 hp.
V has a much better chance of reducing the charge to Murder 2 on the grounds he was just angry at the moment and temporarily lost control.



Sin is purely a religious concept. Yes, it can mean bad things, but that is no requirement, only religious dogma matters. Example - eating meat in certain days is sin, but you'd be hard pressed to find it 'evil'.
Any word gathers additional meanings, starting approximately with the 2nd usage of the word. Sin can be said to be centered on religion, but the dictionary gives as valid meanings "breaking of...moral principle...any offense, misdemeanor, or fault...do wrong..." [Webster's New World Dictionary]

Oh yes, it would be better to put quotes in quote boxes rather than use a different color. It is no more work than to use a different color and makes clearer that you are quoting. If you have not been told, you quote by [ quote=name] text [ /quote] without the spaces.



I don't care if it's morally justified or not, that guy had it coming...
The cops, among others, often have a different idea, and so you are advised to put up with the louts.



Retaliating against the guy was not an evil act, it was chaotic. The guy obviously wasn't a commoner. If V had cast Disintegrate or something then there'd be a point, but a Quickened Lightning bolt?
That the sin could be greater does not mean it is not a sin. V hurt the guy, and intended to. The difference between a broken nose, a broken arm, and a broken neck is pretty large, but they can all earn you jail time.
And the act was evil. V hurt Turban and intended to. Any benefit V got was pretty much the joy of knowing Turban got hurt. The act is also chaotic since he did it himself instead of trying to act thru the law, but CE is a very popular alignment.


Like someone else pointed out, saying V was evil is like saying the Three Stooges are evil.
And they are, obviously. But incompetent evil that doesn't threaten you is often funny.

[Optimystik]

A bar where everyone packs Ak-47 or M-16, maybe.

You cut the most important figure from that post - the damage total. 40 damage in D&D is equal to lobbing grenade at someone in RL.

And you guys missed two most important points: LB is a straight line hundreds of feet long, which is going to end badly in so densely packed town.

Also, there is a huge sign: NO SPELLCASTING! in the first panel, so V also broke local enforcement rules, in addition to violent assault.

All of this.

[Freelance Henchman]

I hope the cute little frog is OK.

[Dark Faun]

It's ironic how Haley berated Belkar for breeding so much trouble with his impulses and it turns out V is the one creating issues whereas Belkar plays the perfect employee.

[Zanaril]

It's ironic how Haley berated Belkar for breeding so much trouble with his impulses and it turns out V is the one creating issues whereas Belkar plays the perfect employee.

If the OTS find out about this, what the betting that Belkar will:
A) approve
or B) pretend to be horrified then applaud V when the others' backs are turned?

[Silverraptor]

If the OTS find out about this, what the betting that Belkar will:
A) approve
or B) pretend to be horrified then applaud V when the other's backs are turned?

Maybe both.

[Zanaril]

Maybe both.

B is both. :smallamused:

[Optimystik]

B is both. :smallamused:

I find it amusing that both alternatives involve Belkar praising V, the only difference being the timing. :smalltongue:

[Krenn]

Dealing 30-40 damage (around 6-8 times a commoner is supposed to have) to living, sentient being is non-evil?

If so, blasting a few holes in someone with AK-47 or slashing the guy's throat a few times is non-evil as well.

Again, I'm amazed what things OotS boards will try to pass as non-evil. Just ask Shojo or Kubota :smallsigh:

A wizard with 12 CON would need at least 10 levels to not be toast immediately thanks to V, by the way.

Nah. it's neutral.

The wizard KNEW that V was a credible threat, and he DELIBERATLY encouraged V to attack him ANYWAY. Obliging him is neutral. If V had cast domination or something on innocent bystanders to get them to fight FOR him, that would have been evil. if the wizard had shot V in the back without warning, to steal the diamond dust, that would have been evil.

The GOOD response would have been casting silence or something to make it easier to ignore him. but remember, D&D isn't good versus evil: it's good versus neutral versus evil. The middle ground is clearly defined and accessible.

[Zanaril]

I find it amusing that both alternatives involve Belkar praising V, the only difference being the timing. :smalltongue:

Random violence? Why wouldn't he approve?

[Krenn]

...Unsettling.

Loved the crack about spell component value in the first panel, though.

which also brought up the question i asked on the boards a very long time ago:

if the important part of the spell is the GP COST of the diamonds, can I pay someone 10,000 GP for a 1 GP diamond, and declare that diamond to be worth "10,000 GP" ?

[Optimystik]

The wizard KNEW that V was a credible threat, and he DELIBERATLY encouraged V to attack him ANYWAY. Obliging him is neutral.

Not when obliging him involves several thousand volts of response. There is no way to make a lightning bolt nonlethal.

[Silverraptor]

which also brought up the question i asked on the boards a very long time ago:

if the important part of the spell is the GP COST of the diamonds, can I pay someone 10,000 GP for a 1 GP diamond, and declare that diamond to be worth "10,000 GP" ?

Apparantly, yes.


Not when obliging him involves several thousand volts of response. There is no way to make a lightning bolt nonlethal.

If they invented a spell that would do that. Imagine how many people would scribe it into their books.:smalltongue:

[Zanaril]

Apparantly, yes.

But the big question is: if you lived in a universe with rules as such, would you risk the possibility of those rules being set against you if you tried to beat the system?

[Silverraptor]

But the big question is: if you lived in a universe with rules as such, would you risk the possibility of those rules being set against you if you tried to beat the system?

If you knew the person who was enforcing the rules well enough. Of course.:smallamused:

[ocdscale]

Nah. it's neutral.

The wizard KNEW that V was a credible threat, and he DELIBERATLY encouraged V to attack him ANYWAY. Obliging him is neutral.

I really can't tell if you are serious or not.

You go up to V and say "You're a Warlock and a bed wetter."
You know him to be arrogant and trigger happy.
If V kills you, the fact that you idiotically provoked him, does not affect the gross evilness of his act.

If he had smacked you on the head. Neutral, not Good, not Evil.
Killing you in response to a verbal insult is not Neutral, and it is certainly not Good.

[silvadel]

It amounts to a glove-slap. And V shut turban guys big yap.

[Silverraptor]

It amounts to a glove-slap. And V shut turban guys big yap.

Actaully, a glove slap is more of a challenge to a duel.

[Aldrakan]

It amounts to a glove-slap. And V shut turban guys big yap.

The thing about a glove slap, the important difference here, is that being hit with a glove doesn't hurt. If you were to be very generous to V you could say it's the variant that shows up in fiction occasionally, when people make that challenge by using a metal gauntlet at full force instead.

If you weren't being generous, you can equate it to shooting someone in the foot. That is, you have some reason to think it won't kill them, although it actually might.

To be extremely ungenerous you can equate it to wildly spraying machine-gun fire to hit someone wearing heavy body armor in a room full of people who aren't. Given that lightning bolt isn't a single-target spell.

[Zanaril]

To be extremely ungenerous you can equate it to wildly spraying machine-gun fire to hit someone wearing heavy body armor in a room full of people who aren't. Given that lightning bolt isn't a single-target spell.

That's not ungenerous, that's accurate.

I really wonder if there are going to be consequences for this. I'm starting to suspect that Roy's "preferably sometime before the end of the book" comment indicates that things aren't going to go smoothly.

[Tobimaro]

A Warlock, totally justified response. Though I would have gone with a slightly different and more appropriate spell. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)

That might have shifted V's alignment towards the evil side. But totally worth it. :smallamused:


Damn you, shiny thing!

Ah well. Who needs Stone Skin when Durkon can provide?

Shiny things are going to be the bane to V's life for awhile.

Do we even know what Durkon's domains are? Does one of them allow him to cast Stoneskin? (Earth and Strength domains allow it.) Even then, he'd still need the material component for the spell. The only way that I would allow it is if he had an item that could cast the spell.

In a recent 3.5 campaign, I had a cleric cohort who had obtained a special sword/holy symbol of a war/travel deity that could be used to cast Stoneskin for the cost of three turn checks. The cohort did not use that function often, as she used her turn checks for other purposes.

[Sijo]

Blackwing isn't smarter than V in the way V values, he just has more common sense. V knows a lot, and doesn't mind showing it, but has never been known for having good judgment.
That was what I meant (though Blackwing is (now) suspiciously well-spoken for a BIRD, even a familiar.) Is Blackwing going to *constantly* correct V? 'Cuz that's going to grow old very fast. (Of course, if V got so sick of that he punishes Blackwing by, I dunno, polymorphing him into a frog, it WOULD be very funny... :smallwink:)

[Dark Faun]

Do we even know what Durkon's domains are?
Beer and Dullness.

[Silverraptor]

Beer and Dullness.

Nicely put.:smallbiggrin:

[Malkar Grumbo]

Beer and Dullness.

Except when he is using Thor's Might, then they are awesome and kick ass.

[David Argall]

Not when obliging him involves several thousand volts of response. There is no way to make a lightning bolt nonlethal.
There is not much interest in making a lightning bolt nonlethal, but I recall a feat to make a spell cause nonlethal damage. I'm too lazy to look it up tho.



The wizard KNEW that V was a credible threat, and he DELIBERATLY encouraged V to attack him ANYWAY. Obliging him is neutral.
You are hurting the other guy with no reason besides your own ego. Evil. the fact you could hurt [or kill] him worse merely tells us the grade of evil, not the fact.

Neutral here is simply ignoring him. Good is trying to find a solution where both can have the needed diamonds, or where the one that needs the diamonds more gets them. [While V may well feel that is her, that can not be automtically assumed. So some means must be used to show which need is actually the greater. An auction could do this, and the joke at the start suggests that both can end up with the diamonds this way.]

[Optimystik]

There is not much interest in making a lightning bolt nonlethal, but I recall a feat to make a spell cause nonlethal damage. I'm too lazy to look it up tho.

That only applies to spells with attack rolls (like rays and orbs), which lightning bolt is not.


Beer and Dullness.

Given his love of lightning and enlarging himself, my bets are Air and War. Definitely fits Thor.

[spargel]

There is not much interest in making a lightning bolt nonlethal, but I recall a feat to make a spell cause nonlethal damage. I'm too lazy to look it up tho.

You are hurting the other guy with no reason besides your own ego. Evil. the fact you could hurt [or kill] him worse merely tells us the grade of evil, not the fact.

Neutral here is simply ignoring him. Good is trying to find a solution where both can have the needed diamonds, or where the one that needs the diamonds more gets them. [While V may well feel that is her, that can not be automtically assumed. So some means must be used to show which need is actually the greater. An auction could do this, and the joke at the start suggests that both can end up with the diamonds this way.]

This argument really depends on whether you consider the Lightning Bolt the real life equivalent to punching someone in the face, or shooting them.

[Parlity]

This argument really depends on whether you consider the Lightning Bolt the real life equivalent to punching someone in the face, or shooting them.

A punch wouldn't kill low-hp characters in the area effect of lightning bolt. Whatever turban man did, they had nothing to do with it.

Random question: Has V had an angry face before the desert comics? V used to be more calm and collected.

[Dark Faun]

Random question: Has V had an angry face before the desert comics? V used to be more calm and collected.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html).

[Leraje]

Okay, I have one thing to say to all of this. V is a wizard. By their nature, wizards are mostly lawful, so it would follow that everything V does has a purpose. Take this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) for example. Though in this case the purpose was to get the wizard to shut up, the principle is the same.

[Raenir Salazar]

until Rich gives some kind of incomic word of god to end the argument can someone copy and paste the relevent passage from the Book of Vile Darkness please?

[David Argall]

This argument really depends on whether you consider the Lightning Bolt the real life equivalent to punching someone in the face, or shooting them.
This argument says there is no qualitative difference. Both are evil. One earns you a night in the pokey and a stiff lecture. The other gives you a few years in the slammer. But you are doing what you should not in either case.

[spargel]

This argument says there is no qualitative difference. Both are evil. One earns you a night in the pokey and a stiff lecture. The other gives you a few years in the slammer. But you are doing what you should not in either case.

It's called "heat of passion", which is probably closer to neutral than evil.

[Leraje]

It's called "heat of passion", which is probably closer to neutral than evil.

This is true, but you have to consider the fact that V is probably Lawful Good or Neutral Good, while blasting the guy was at best a chaotic neutral act.

[Silverraptor]

This is true, but you have to consider the fact that V is probably Lawful Good or Neutral Good, while blasting the guy was at best a chaotic neutral act.

Where'd you come up with V being good aligned?:smallconfused:

[Leraje]

Yeah, the splice really messed with V. All the same, he/she needs to get used to the fact that he/she isn't an ultra-powerful splice of 3 archmages anymore.

[Silverraptor]

Yeah, the splice really messed with V. All the same, he/she needs to get used to the fact that he/she isn't an ultra-powerful splice of 3 archmages anymore.

This still doesn't answer my question.

[Kallisti]

It's called "heat of passion", which is probably closer to neutral than evil.

This. Lashing out in anger at someone who is provoking you is not an evil act. It's not good, it's not lawful, but it's not evil.

Lightning Bolting the guy just to get him out of the way and reach the counter faster would have been evil. Lightning bolting him after he spent the whoole comic purposefully provoking V? More power to you, Vaarsuvius.

[Leraje]

Where'd you come up with V being good aligned?:smallconfused:

I used a stereotypical elf as his/her template. Oh, yeah, Isn't trying to destroy a lich half-mad with his own power a "good" act?

[spargel]

This is true, but you have to consider the fact that V is probably Lawful Good or Neutral Good, while blasting the guy was at best a chaotic neutral act.

Your definition of "fact" is very different from mine.

[Leraje]

Your definition of "fact" is very different from mine.

fine. possibility instead of fact.

[Silverraptor]

I used a stereotypical elf as his/her template. Oh, yeah, Isn't trying to destroy a lich half-mad with his own power a "good" act?

Of course it is, but that doesn't show a permanent shift into the "Good" alignment. Xykon is just a target that the team is after and thus by taking out the target to help the team was probably V's intended goal. As I recall, V said something along the lines of,

:vaarsuvius:: "I will stop the evil Lich because I have the power to do it."

Not along the lines of.

:vaarsuvius:: "I will stop the evil Lich to prevent him from harming anyone and bring this madness to an end!"

That's the key difference right there. If someone is at war with your enemy purely because they're enemies and not because they're trying to help you, doesn't qualify them as "Good".

Also, Wizards tend to be more neutral since they care more about studying then what happens in the world.