Why is warlock worse than sorceror?

[Ferrous]

I'm not that familiar with D&D rules, so someone kindly explain to me (or at least point me in the right direction) why being called a warlock would possibly be worse than a sorceror (I've understood from reading OOTS that sorcerors are considered morons because they don't have to learn their spells, whereas wizards do).

[RMS Oceanic]

Well, assuming the same sort of Warlock as seen in Complete Arcane:

1. Warlocks cast spell-like abilities which emulate other spells. At least Sorcerers cast spells as Wizards understand them.
2. The amount of abilities a Warlock gets is less even than the number of Sorcerer spells.
3. Warlocks are given their powers from an outside source, rather than coming from within or studying to achieve them.

[Bibliomancer]

Warlocks derive their power from infernal sources. It isn't even theirs, thus making them arcane-versions of evil clerics without any useful class features. This also hits uncomfortably close to home for V, since she recently made a similar bargain, and the main warlock ability is basically what an evoker does, except with a single target and no use-limit.

Edit: Ninjaed!

[Mando Knight]

This also hits uncomfortably close to home for V, since she recently made a similar bargain, and the main warlock ability is basically what an evoker does, except with a single target and no use-limit.

Well, actually, IIRC a warlock can shape his eldritch blast to hit multiple characters if he learns the correct invocations... and do it all day. The advantage an evoker has is the ability to deal more damage per attack, though he can do so fewer times per day.

[Bibliomancer]

Well, actually, IIRC a warlock can shape his eldritch blast to hit multiple characters if he learns the correct invocations... and do it all day. The advantage an evoker has is the ability to deal more damage per attack, though he can do so fewer times per day.

True, but it doesn't become an actual area burst until the high levels, so for wiping out mooks and consistent, flexible long-range bombardment, evokers have an advantage.

[Morty]

If wizards consider sorcerer to be upstarts because they have an innate gift for magic, then I suppose warlocks who are not only also born with power but don't use actual spells would be treated like dirt. Can't say they don't have a point, really.:smalltongue:

[Bibliomancer]

If wizards consider sorcerer to be upstarts because they have an innate gift for magic, then I suppose warlocks who are not only also born with power but don't use actual spells would be treated like dirt. Can't say they don't have a point, really.:smalltongue:

Actually, some warlocks aren't born with power, they bargain for it with infernal powers (hence the alignment restrictions). Their descendants receive this power as well, however.

[SPoD]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

[Blue Ghost]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

This. Wizardry is a lofty and noble profession, and we do not stand those infernal wannabes.

[Bibliomancer]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

Interesting simile, but how does one graduate with natural talent? I think the sorcerer half of that simile needs work. Also, I'm fairly certain that the term isn't 'graduate.' They are already graduate students, having graduated undergraduate school with a bachelor's degree. They simply need to succeed on their thesis defense and are then awarded a Doctorate of Philosophy.

[SPoD]

Interesting simile, but how does one graduate with natural talent? I think the sorcerer half of that simile needs work.

I went to art school, trust me: Some students cruise through with all A's without actually improving one bit, simply because they started out with a lot of natural talent. It all depends on the profession.


Also, I'm fairly certain that the term isn't 'graduate.' They are already graduate students, having graduated undergraduate school with a bachelor's degree. They simply need to succeed on their thesis defense and are then awarded a Doctorate of Philosophy.

A fascinating nitpick that in no way changes the substance of my comment.

[Starscream]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

Dude, I think you just won the thread. This made my day.

[Morty]

Actually, some warlocks aren't born with power, they bargain for it with infernal powers (hence the alignment restrictions). Their descendants receive this power as well, however.

Maybe, it's been a while since I've read Complete Arcane. Still, using invocations rather than spells easily puts warlocks at the bottom of the heap in wizards' eyes.

[Nota Biene]

It should also be noted that the warlock class is in 3.5 is much, much weaker than wizards, or even sorcerers. People have commented that V's specialty in evocation has made him/her a much less effective wizard than he/she could be, but a warlock can't even begin to match that level of competency, and is not a much better blaster either (in fact, they are often worse.)

[Edhelras]

Oh boy, warlocks just suck big-time....

That's pretty much the worst insult I ever heard in DnD.... :smallbiggrin:

[waterpenguin43]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

You're right, I agree with everyone else on that.

[Bibliomancer]

I went to art school, trust me: Some students cruise through with all A's without actually improving one bit, simply because they started out with a lot of natural talent. It all depends on the profession

I tend to think of magic as the sciences, which was why the natural talent thing didn't seem to work.



A fascinating nitpick that in no way changes the substance of my comment.

I was not implying that it did, and I apologize if that was the impression you received. I was simply attempting to clarify the terminology as I understood it.

[Prak]

If wizards consider sorcerer to be upstarts because they have an innate gift for magic, then I suppose warlocks who are not only also born with power but don't use actual spells would be treated like dirt. Can't say they don't have a point, really.:smalltongue:

eh, they're just jealous of a Warlock's staying power.

[SPoD]

I tend to think of magic as the sciences, which was why the natural talent thing didn't seem to work.

It was an analogy to our world, not a direct description of theirs. However, a science student could still have a photographic memory or natural talent for doing complex math in his or her head that could vastly improve their chances of doing well.

[Bibliomancer]

eh, they're just jealous of a Warlock's staying power.

Have you ever heard of reserve feats?


It was an analogy to our world, not a direct description of theirs. However, a science student could still have a photographic memory or natural talent for doing complex math in his or her head that could vastly improve their chances of doing well.

True, but in that case that would be like a wizard resenting another wizard for having a higher intelligence.

[Prak]

heh, forgot about those actually.

[Volkov]

Warlocks don't have to work at all for that power, they just need to convince a demon or slaadi to give them some power. If simply needing to have a dragon be in your family tree is bad to a wizard who had to work his arse for his power, then flattering a Balor would be downright awful.

[Nero24200]

I'd say it's due to how they learn spells.

Wizard's need to study for years to learn magic. Sorcerers are born with it, but still require some training to master it. Warlocks gain it via a pact of some kind, essentially gaining power without work.

In some instances, wizards look down on sorcerers as it's beleived that they don't really understand their power. I beleive Mialee is quoted in one book saying (though I don't have the book, so the quote won't be 100% accurate)

"Any idiot can pick up a brush, that doesn't make them an artist". Or somthing to that effect.

In any case, warlocks would be a more extreme example of this. Despite gaining power naturally, sorcerers still require training to master it. Being called a warlock would be insulting, because it's essentailly implying that V is the kind of person who gets everything for free and without any actual talent.

[Starbuck_II]

Warlocks derive their power from infernal sources. It isn't even theirs, thus making them arcane-versions of evil clerics without any useful class features. This also hits uncomfortably close to home for V, since she recently made a similar bargain, and the main warlock ability is basically what an evoker does, except with a single target and no use-limit.

Edit: Ninjaed!

Only if you wish to be evil.
There are celestial Warlocks: Choatic Good, remember chaos or evil alignment. Not both required.

But yeah, they can do their tricks forever. Can never be dispelled of their buffs (do to the overlapping rules allow you to cast 20 spells of same spell on self but they have no benefit except to not be dispelled).

Really, V is just jealous. There was a couple times she would have been better off being one (like when she ran outta spells).

[Volkov]

I don't remember how Wizards look upon psions and that other psionic class that had wild in it's name. I think they'd feel at least some common ground with Psions, who are much like wizards with a different power source.

Or did psions have natural talent?

[MReav]

In any case, warlocks would be a more extreme example of this. Despite gaining power naturally, sorcerers still require training to master it. Being called a warlock would be insulting, because it's essentailly implying that V is the kind of person who gets everything for free and without any actual talent.

I know it's been said before, but I find the irony amusing, since V did actually bargain with the netherworld like a Warlock.

That being said, don't forget, Warlocks could also get their powers from fey, allowing for a chaotic good Warlock if you patronize Nymphs and other good Fey.

[Nero24200]

[QUOTE=MReav;6910515]I know it's been said before, but I find the irony amusing, since V did actually bargain with the netherworld like a Warlock.
[QUOTE]That could be partly why V has such a reaction to the taunt, because as insulting as it was, it was partly true, as V did gain power via a quick method requiring little work or effort.

[ednarimal]

I don't remember how Wizards look upon psions and that other psionic class that had wild in it's name. I think they'd feel at least some common ground with Psions, who are much like wizards with a different power source.

Or did psions have natural talent?

Psions study themselves and their minds to call upon their psionic power.

Although they would seem to get along with wizards(studious, logical, thinking types), they tend to feel that magic is a crutch, and those who use it weak(of mind).

Wilders would be seen as equal to sorcerers, since they act exact like OotS sorcerers are seen.

[whitelaughter]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.
since sorcery is inherited, more that you only graduated because daddy had the money to pay.

[1dominator]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

Quoted for truth.

Speaking of talent this also applies to mathematics, Ive met people who just have a natural aptitude for the stuff. These people are just naturally good at the type of thinking required by mathematics, while the rest of us have to achieve success by hard work, to them it comes naturally.

[Kish]

since sorcery is inherited,
...theoretically, in a theory that has never come up in OotS...

[Orzel]

Think of it like superheroes.

A wizard is a guy who make their own weapons, gadgets, and rides. They went to martial arts schools to learn to fight. They hire and train their own help and sidekicks. Batman

A sorceror is the mutant who shoots bullets/fire/lasers out his hands. They train to control their powers but lack knowledge of how it works.

Warlocks are guys who wear someone else's super suit, uses someone else's gadgets, and buys weaons. They are lucky if they have limited knowledge on how it works. Rhino. or the stupid TV/Movie version of Bane. And henchmen.

Warlocks are the henchmen of the arcane world. Wizards are the stonger supers. Sorceror are the wildcards.

[AlexanderRM]

since sorcery is inherited, more that you only graduated because daddy had the money to pay.

More like because you inherited natural talent from your parents.

And it never says that sorcery is inherited (at least in the core rules), that's one claim some powerful sorcerers make. In essence the comparison to natural talent is quite apt.

[Volkov]

Psions study themselves and their minds to call upon their psionic power.

Although they would seem to get along with wizards(studious, logical, thinking types), they tend to feel that magic is a crutch, and those who use it weak(of mind).

Wilders would be seen as equal to sorcerers, since they act exact like OotS sorcerers are seen.
I wonder how cerebremancers are looked upon.

[Bibliomancer]

I wonder how cerebremancers are looked upon.

The same as mystic theurges, namely with confusion/respect for overwhelming versatility.

What I find frustrating about psionics is this:

Wizards use their intellect to harness magic to reshape reality.

Psions use their intellect to reshape reality.

By definition, wizards are more powerful because they are melding their mind with another force. This is borne out by the huge advantages inherent to being able to change one's spell selection day-to-day and having advanced divination spells, not to mention to ability to train anyone with an Int of 11+ to be in a wizard army in a magocracy. However, I find the distinction between psionics and magic ill-defined. At times it seems like psionics needs a completely different casting stat, or needs to be redefined as a sub-branch of magic. Is anyone else annoyed by the fuzziness here?

Also, shouldn't warlocks be divine casters, since they gain their power from an outside source?

[Orzel]

More like because you inherited natural talent from your parents.

And it never says that sorcery is inherited (at least in the core rules), that's one claim some powerful sorcerers make. In essence the comparison to natural talent is quite apt.

Yeah. The real difference between wizards and sorcerors is that instead of learning how magic works, sorcerors link themselves to magic itself (through birth or ritual) and scream "Work!"

[Bibliomancer]

Yeah. The real difference between wizards and sorcerors is that instead of learning how magic works, sorcerors link themselves to magic itself (through birth or ritual) and scream "Work!"

And when they inevitably come across in a situation where their spell selection is hopelessly inadequate, magic looks down on them and whispers "No."

[Volkov]

Unless they are dragons, when magic tells a sufficiently old dragon no, the dragon tells magic to get bent and does what it wanted to any way.

[dragongirl13]

Actually, some warlocks aren't born with power, they bargain for it with infernal powers (hence the alignment restrictions). Their descendants receive this power as well, however.

They could also get it from the Fair Folk (I mean the fey). My best friend plays fey warlocks all the time.

[The Extinguisher]

The same as mystic theurges, namely with confusion/respect for overwhelming versatility.

What I find frustrating about psionics is this:

Wizards use their intellect to harness magic to reshape reality.

Psions use their intellect to reshape reality.

By definition, wizards are more powerful because they are melding their mind with another force. This is borne out by the huge advantages inherent to being able to change one's spell selection day-to-day and having advanced divination spells, not to mention to ability to train anyone with an Int of 11+ to be in a wizard army in a magocracy. However, I find the distinction between psionics and magic ill-defined. At times it seems like psionics needs a completely different casting stat, or needs to be redefined as a sub-branch of magic. Is anyone else annoyed by the fuzziness here?

Also, shouldn't warlocks be divine casters, since they gain their power from an outside source?

I've always thought Psionics were just another form of magic, like Oath or Truenaming. It's not all just Arcane and Divine.

[RoninAngel]

Obviously it's an insult becuase it implies that V is a weak charlatan that has powers not from hard work and study, but from deals with dark powers.

That and warlocks are like the inbred mutants of the spellcasting world, their class features are from a crappy expansion sourcebook and they don't really cast actuall spells.
...

And for the record, magic is not a science, it's magic.
If Wizards happen to experiance it in a science-like paradigm, where they get their power and their knowedge from study and experimentation, that experiance is unique to them, and every other class just gets their magic differently. In the case of sorcerors and bards, it's internal. In the case of most everyone else, it's devinely external. They are simply rewarded for their faith with devine magic. An athiest could study cleric spells till his hair turns grey, and he would no sooner become a cleric as the sun would turn black.

This is all 3.5. stuff. Warlocks are basically demon flavored sorcerors in 4th Edition.

[Lissou]

Obviously it's an insult becuase it implies that V is a weak charlatan that has powers not from hard work and study, but from deals with dark powers.

And that is so unlike V..

[RoninAngel]

And that is so unlike V..

Perhaps V's recent misadventure with fiends is why the elf is so sore about it.

[Kalbron]

Given all that was achieved through hard work and study in regards to divination magic, it's a wonder that V cares at all.

For all the screw ups and the price to be eventuall paid, at least the faustian pact achieved something compared with the hard work.

[spargel]

since sorcery is inherited, more that you only graduated because daddy had the money to pay.

It's more like you graduated because you were born to be good at academics, while everyone else has to study and work much harder.

[Katana_Geldar]

I still remember Fryon's assessment of sorcerer's in SoD. :smallwink:

[SandroTheMaster]

Actually, I found it symbolic of V's deal in another way.

The bargain V's done hurt him emotionally, but at the end Xykon taught him that true power is something you earn. V's bargain wasn't real power, and he learned it the hard way. Implying he was still getting power from such bargain made him mad. That means that he's mad mostly because when he made his bargain he actually considered a Warlock's power to be real power.

Also, of course it was just a joke about how "professional" wizard players look down on other arcane spellcasters. In-universe comparisons were already made, so let me introduce an in-game session comparison.

A Wizard player is a hard-working person who feels they need to be versatile to help their group, so they extensively study their spell selection to be sure of always having the right spell prepared for the occasion.

A Sorcerer player is a lazy wizard who doesn't want to have to always consider the situation and deciding which spell to cast. So he only has to make considerations at spell selection, and when into action they hope the spell they do have are at least useful for the situation.

A Warlock player is a lazy sorcerer who only wants the firepower. He is content enough as long as he can cast bastardized versions of magic missiles and fireball to cause damage.

[Cracklord]

Because Vaarsuvius is a warlock, or at least she was for a while something very close to it, and doesn't like being thought of that way. Vaarsuvius would never sell its soul to representative of planes from a lower place for power, would it?
No, that would put it on the same level of all those lazy bastards who got their arcane power in a deal with demons for no work and instant benefit.
Perish the thought.

[spargel]

Actually, I found it symbolic of V's deal in another way.

The bargain V's done hurt him emotionally, but at the end Xykon taught him that true power is something you earn. V's bargain wasn't real power, and he learned it the hard way. Implying he was still getting power from such bargain made him mad. That means that he's mad mostly because when he made his bargain he actually considered a Warlock's power to be real power.

Also, of course it was just a joke about how "professional" wizard players look down on other arcane spellcasters. In-universe comparisons were already made, so let me introduce an in-game session comparison.

A Wizard player is a hard-working person who feels they need to be versatile to help their group, so they extensively study their spell selection to be sure of always having the right spell prepared for the occasion.

A Sorcerer player is a lazy wizard who doesn't want to have to always consider the situation and deciding which spell to cast. So he only has to make considerations at spell selection, and when into action they hope the spell they do have are at least useful for the situation.

A Warlock player is a lazy sorcerer who only wants the firepower. He is content enough as long as he can cast bastardized versions of magic missiles and fireball to cause damage.

Aesops don't work well when they're forced.

[Gri]

Yeah, because it's SOOOOO easy to convince A ****ING BALOR to give you some power! Also If warlocks dont work for their powers, how can they gain exp and gain levels?

[Prak]

I don't remember how Wizards look upon psions and that other psionic class that had wild in it's name. I think they'd feel at least some common ground with Psions, who are much like wizards with a different power source.

Or did psions have natural talent?

part of it has to do with spellcasting ability. Wizards use Intelligence, and so feel they are more intelligent than Sorcerers, who use Charisma, and so often do have a lower Intelligence than Wizards because it's not as important for them. Warlocks also use Charisma, but it's perfectly viable for them to not care about Charisma because they can pick invocations that don't allow saves.

Hell, one of the best Warlock Invocation pick routines is "the Dead Walk," "Eldritch Doom," "Utterdark Blast," and, providing a liberal interpretation of Eldritch Blasts being "the equivalent of a spell," the Feat "Fell Animate." But I digress.

[Hatchet]

Actually, I found it symbolic of V's deal in another way.

The bargain V's done hurt him emotionally, but at the end Xykon taught him that true power is something you earn. V's bargain wasn't real power, and he learned it the hard way. Implying he was still getting power from such bargain made him mad. That means that he's mad mostly because when he made his bargain he actually considered a Warlock's power to be real power.

Also, of course it was just a joke about how "professional" wizard players look down on other arcane spellcasters. In-universe comparisons were already made, so let me introduce an in-game session comparison.

A Wizard player is a hard-working person who feels they need to be versatile to help their group, so they extensively study their spell selection to be sure of always having the right spell prepared for the occasion.

A Sorcerer player is a lazy wizard who doesn't want to have to always consider the situation and deciding which spell to cast. So he only has to make considerations at spell selection, and when into action they hope the spell they do have are at least useful for the situation.

A Warlock player is a lazy sorcerer who only wants the firepower. He is content enough as long as he can cast bastardized versions of magic missiles and fireball to cause damage.

As someone who is currently playing a wizard, all I can say is that you are 100% correct. Playing a wizard is much harder than playing a sorcerer, but it feels much more rewarding.

And you really do start thinking of spontaneous casters as lazy.

[SandroTheMaster]

Yeah, because it's SOOOOO easy to convince A ****ING BALOR to give you some power! Also If warlocks dont work for their powers, how can they gain exp and gain levels?

It may not be that easy. But it sure as hell it is not real power either. All it takes (if taken his interpretation of power) for him to become useless is for the entity giving him power to take it back. As, say, the warlock acting against his interests... or maybe just because it felt it'd be funny (likely if it is a Balor).

And you're confusing some things here. By "warlocks don't work for their power" we're saying they just get it. Wizards need to study for several years at some magic school or under the tutelage of another wizard until they get to the point where they can consistently cast their spells (and thus becoming a first level wizard).

Sorcerers have to harness and focus their mind from the moment they discover their power in order for it to become reliable eventually.

Even a cleric has to learn quite a lot about his religion and deity, and undergo some form of special training unique to the deity, before they're given the right to perform their miracles.

A warlock, just need to get into contact with some otherwordly being that can grant power and promise to work for him in some way, then PRESTO! He can zap with eldrich bolts.

SOMETIMES these beings require some form of proof or task. (Still, usually evil entities are just happy with the amount of mayhen one more Warlock will cause in the material plane). This is still easier than years of dedication to become what they want.

[Trixie]

In the case of most everyone else, it's devinely external. They are simply rewarded for their faith with devine magic. An athiest could study cleric spells till his hair turns grey, and he would no sooner become a cleric as the sun would turn black.

You've never seen atheist Archivist class, did you? :smallamused:

[SandroTheMaster]

As someone who is currently playing a wizard, all I can say is that you are 100% correct. Playing a wizard is much harder than playing a sorcerer, but it feels much more rewarding.

And you really do start thinking of spontaneous casters as lazy.

Yeah. Some sorcerers players say the sorcerer is more versatile because they can choose their spells on the fly. Well, a wizard can dedicate EACH slot he has to a different spell, covering different scenarios.

In a group which was used to fireball sorcerers always thought I ran out of spells early. I replied I just ran out of relevant spells to the encounter. Until at one point where we faced a few truly nasty undead during rest and NO-ONE was in condition to fight properly. I hadn't cast a spell that day I prepared in the case we faced undeads. Suddenly, 3 of the small group of undeads were out of the fight until they were reacquired.

I shouldn't need to mention how they suddenly reevaluated what a wizard's role is.

[Trixie]

In a group which was used to fireball sorcerers always thought I ran out of spells early. I replied I just ran out of relevant spells to the encounter. Until at one point where we faced a few truly nasty undead during rest and NO-ONE was in condition to fight properly. I hadn't cast a spell that day I prepared in the case we faced undeads. Suddenly, 3 of the small group of undeads were out of the fight until they were reacquired.

Let's face it - having no spells for encounter = having no spells at all.

And since you had less spells even without that limit, yes, you were far less versatile. Having every spell in the book won't help you if you have only three slots, when there are (usually) four encounters per day and you can only respond to one or two due to picking wrong spells.

[Totally Guy]

Sorcerers in the story tend to be evil.

We've had...
Xykon,
Samantha,
Nale,
and Jephton.

If Sorcerers tend to be evil then what about warlocks? They're either Chaotic or Evil. Or Chaotic Evil.

[Katana_Geldar]

Well, the whole thing about being quicker and easier...

[Conuly]

For all the screw ups and the price to be eventually paid, at least the faustian pact achieved something compared with the hard work.

Which no doubt makes it even more galling. Bad enough the insult had a ring of truth, but if being a warlock or warlock-esque accomplishes more of your goals than being a wizard, well, then, what does that say about V's wisdom in choosing "wizard" as a class? And sticking with it, too!

[Volkov]

Yeah, because it's SOOOOO easy to convince A ****ING BALOR to give you some power! Also If warlocks dont work for their powers, how can they gain exp and gain levels?

Flattering them always works, they like their egos to be inflated. As do the more powerful slaads. Convincing a black slaad however, is even easier, or harder, completely depends on the mood of the slaad. But do not anger them, a black slaad is more powerful than any demon lord.

[Abstruse]

Being called a warlock would be insulting, because it's essentailly implying that V is the kind of person who gets everything for free and without any actual talent.

So rather like V's reaction to Elan wanting to take wizard levels, then. "Oh no, it's just ASSUMED that I've been studying up on magic off-panel. Look, it's not hard! Shazam!" "GYAAAAAAAAAAH!!!" :smallbiggrin:

[SandroTheMaster]

Let's face it - having no spells for encounter = having no spells at all.

And since you had less spells even without that limit, yes, you were far less versatile. Having every spell in the book won't help you if you have only three slots, when there are (usually) four encounters per day and you can only respond to one or two due to picking wrong spells.

Except that the spells that were of no use for THAT encounter can come up to be useful for the NEXT encounter. And usually a wizard will restrain himself from using more spells when he feels they're not needed anymore in an encounter. Why use web in a group of half-dead ogres now when you know you'll find their leader next? And there you can disable his retinue for a few turns.

While a sorcerer can be completely exchanged for a single wand.

For instance. If you know you're going to find lots of undeads in the following encounters, a wizard will make sure to slot some good spells against undeads. There are some that put them out of combat and some that'll help against their touch draining attacks. A sorcerer is stuck with what he has. Need a sorcerer's firepower? 1 Wand of Fireballs and 1 wand of Magic missiles almost effortlessly do the same job if needed.

[Scarlet Knight]

Yeah, because it's SOOOOO easy to convince A ****ING BALOR to give you some power! Also If warlocks dont work for their powers, how can they gain exp and gain levels?

Oh, it's not so bad... http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php

Was there once a class called Diabolist?

[Volkov]

When a Warlock gains a level, they gain greater skill with the chaotic power they have been granted.

[Kobold-Bard]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

I imagine this has already been quoted dozens of times, but I just have to say I love this analogy (is that the right word? Meh, either way). I may come back and sig this later.

[RoninAngel]

A Warlock player is a lazy sorcerer who only wants the firepower. He is content enough as long as he can cast bastardized versions of magic missiles and fireball to cause damage.

Just like a 4th ed wizard? :smallwink:

[Volkov]

I imagine this has already been quoted dozens of times, but I just have to say I love this analogy (is that the right word? Meh, either way). I may come back and sig this later.

It's also one of the more disturbing analogies if you know what a quickie is.

[Starbuck_II]

Of course, unlike a Wizard, Warlocks are 100% in control of a summon swarm (since they can stop and recast with no drawback) and use it as a standard action.

So that is a point in Warlocks favor. Heck, they can do that by level 1.

Wizards can never do that.

[Kish]

Sorcerers in the story tend to be evil.

We've had...
Xykon,
Samantha,
Nale,
and Jephton.
And the silver dragon in Xykon's tower.

[Enlong]

It should also be noted that the warlock class is in 3.5 is much, much weaker than wizards, or even sorcerers. People have commented that V's specialty in evocation has made him/her a much less effective wizard than he/she could be, but a warlock can't even begin to match that level of competency, and is not a much better blaster either (in fact, they are often worse.)

Yes, because having permanent invisibility, permanent flight, and the ability to zap a guy with a level-drain beam from 250 feet away is really sucky. Almost as bad as that same beam instead using SR-piercing conjured acid.

[Optimystik]

And the silver dragon in Xykon's tower.

And Celia. But he did qualify "in the comic" rather than "in general," so so far he's right.


Yes, because having permanent invisibility, permanent flight, and the ability to zap a guy with a level-drain beam from 250 feet away is really sucky. Almost as bad as that same beam instead using SR-piercing conjured acid.

Not to mention being able to detect magic at will, take 10 on UMD checks even under pressure, being unable to be tracked by sent or trail, and shadow walk with the entire party at will. Yep.

[Deatheater]

Warlock does seem to be the bottom of the arcane barrel. It's not a lot of power and its not even your power!

Aside: I suspect sorcerers get slammed in the comic more due to the fact that the Big Bad is a sorcerer than because of their supposed great defects. Face it, if most of us had "powers" we wouldn't not cry if we had them all the time, even if they were limited in scope. Nothing wrong with being a mutant if you can't be Iron Man.

[Optimystik]

Not to mention, wizards aren't very powerful without having a way to scribe and research spells. But a Warlock and Sorcerer will always be able to keep gaining new magic just by focusing on their blood. The first arcanists (i.e. dragons and fiends) were sorcerers and warlocks; it's very easy for haughty wizards to forget that they are the johnny-come-lately of the arcane game.


A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.


A fascinating nitpick that in no way changes the substance of my comment.

See, quotes like this are why I enjoy reading SPoD's posts.

[RoninAngel]

You've never seen atheist Archivist class, did you? :smallamused:


I fermly believe that random classes from obscure explansion books don't really count. That's why I didn't mention the Ur-Priest from the Book of Vile Darkness either.
:smallsigh:

[MReav]

Aside: I suspect sorcerers get slammed in the comic more due to the fact that the Big Bad is a sorcerer than because of their supposed great defects.

No, one of Xykon's pet peeves was that he had a lifetime of Wizards looking down on him for being a Sorcerer.

[Silverraptor]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

This is GREAT!!!:smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

Aside: I suspect sorcerers get slammed in the comic more due to the fact that the Big Bad is a sorcerer than because of their supposed great defects. Face it, if most of us had "powers" we wouldn't not cry if we had them all the time, even if they were limited in scope. Nothing wrong with being a mutant if you can't be Iron Man.

Not at all. Even if we assume that every wizard everywhere is somehow aware of Xykon's existence, this prejudice has been going on since before he became the Big Bad; both Fyron and Dorukan's comments predate his most notorious incident, i.e. sacking Azure City.

[chaoticjosh]

Excuse me for my supreme ignorance on all things DnD, but I'd like to know.

The way I understand it, a Warlock works like this:

1. Warlock beseeches a demon or something for power
2. The demon gives power
3. The warlock then unconditionally has whatever portion of power the demon gave him/her

My question is, can he keep doing this, with however many demons he can convince to give him power, effectively meaning he has no upper limit on how powerful he can get?

[Irbis]

Except that the spells that were of no use for THAT encounter can come up to be useful for the NEXT encounter. And usually a wizard will restrain himself from using more spells when he feels they're not needed anymore in an encounter. Why use web in a group of half-dead ogres now when you know you'll find their leader next? And there you can disable his retinue for a few turns.

1) "Restrain" - ergo, you're not contributing to the party. Sorcerer can cast on both.
2) They will be only useful if the enemy is dumb like a bag of bricks. Let's suppose you scry a cave full of skeletons and prepare anti-undead spells - oops, these are not undead, they're golems. Or kobolds with illusions casted on them. Or constructs. Suddenly, you're as useful as commoner, unlike sorcerer.


While a sorcerer can be completely exchanged for a single wand.

Pffft, non sequitur. If so, you can be exchanged for a pile of scrolls.


For instance. If you know you're going to find lots of undeads in the following encounters, a wizard will make sure to slot some good spells against undeads. There are some that put them out of combat and some that'll help against their touch draining attacks. A sorcerer is stuck with what he has. Need a sorcerer's firepower? 1 Wand of Fireballs and 1 wand of Magic missiles almost effortlessly do the same job if needed.

Only if you spend 100% of your treasure on scrolls. No magic items? Too bad, sorcerer is free to spend 90% of his cash on them. You're less useful as you're not contributing, and one wrong choice in morning makes you a commoner. Sorcerer will alway have something to cast, and if you need many teleport casting there is no one better than sorceror.

Your wizard sucks even in blasting comparison, as he has fewer and weaker spells (Wings of Flurry come to mind).

[teratorn]

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

Regular PhDs need to be defended in front of a jury, so the Dean would have a tough time to grant it like that. Nonetheless, there is something equivalent in the world of PhDs (ok, generally no quickies involved): the honoris causa thingies.

[PonceAlyosha]

Which no doubt makes it even more galling. Bad enough the insult had a ring of truth, but if being a warlock or warlock-esque accomplishes more of your goals than being a wizard, well, then, what does that say about V's wisdom in choosing "wizard" as a class? And sticking with it, too!

I think you hit the nail on the head. If nothing else, maybe this experience will teach Vaarsuvius that multi-classing and or prestiging is okay. Take Incantrix levels!