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Skorj
2009-09-11, 04:51 PM
I'm putting together an adventure for a bunch of cheezy overpowered Wizards (see my sig - and if you're in that party, you should probably stay out of this thread).

I'd like to put together a "Linear Guild" style anti-party, made from terrible classes and builds, mostly for the humiliation value if the Wizard/Sorc party should be defeated in some way by these guys.

But I have a gimmik here: I want to put together a party of races/class/build combinations that, outside of the D&D rules, really seem like they should work, or work in other games. Stuff that's not obviously stupid, except by D&D rules, but is all poor tier classes with poor race and build choices.

I'm looking for suggestions and ideas. What I've thought of so far is:

A monk, of course, of some small race. Yoda-esque.
A dwarven paladin. Everyone knows they make good tanks, right? :smalleek:


Sadly I don't have the rules for CW Samurai. Inspired by today's comic - just how bad are Warlocks? Not monk bad, surely, but what's the worst sort of caster that still sounds cool?

Mando Knight
2009-09-11, 04:54 PM
Small monks can actually be good. Especially if they've got partially charged wands and ranks in UMD.

Myou
2009-09-11, 04:55 PM
Warlocks... are balanced.

The comic reaction seems to have just been some fluff-based thing.


The CW Samurai is a fighter that trades his bonus feats for a few Intimidate-based abilities and the ability to use his swords slightly more competantly than a commoner 1.

Skorj
2009-09-11, 05:00 PM
Small monks can actually be good. Especially if they've got partially charged wands and ranks in UMD.

Check: no wands for the monk - in your face melee combat only, focused on HP damage (hey, Yoda was really cool in that combat scene, right?). :smallbiggrin:

Actually, I will be searching for ways to make such (mechanically) broken character concepts effective, but first I need a set of character concepts that are actually so broken it's funny.

shadzar
2009-09-11, 05:01 PM
Gnome monks. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WTFComics)

Temet Nosce
2009-09-11, 05:02 PM
Warlocks... are balanced.

The comic reaction seems to have just been some fluff-based thing.

Yeah, pretty much. Warlocks can have some fairly good builds, but an average one is nothing special either way (neither incredibly bad nor good).

You might consider a Soulknife, or a Healer.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 05:02 PM
Small monks can actually be good. Especially if they've got partially charged wands and ranks in UMD.

Don't advocate something that can break even the NPC classes. It isn't the class that makes that option good, its the option itself that makes the option good.


Warlocks... are balanced.

The comic reaction seems to have just been some fluff-based thing.


The CW Samurai is a fighter that trades his bonus feats for a few Intimidate-based abilities and the ability to use his swords slightly more competantly than a commoner 1.


I'd say Warlocks are slightly underpowered, but can be an entertaining class to play and are not that far behind balanced classes. If anything, they could use a few more Invocations known, and maybe a small damage boost to EB (like Cha to damage with EB shots when not using a Blast Shape Invocation?).

And I agree with your assessment of the CW Samurai. How the devs convinced themselves to make that a PC base class is beyond me.

Guancyto
2009-09-11, 05:03 PM
A single-classed Soulknife could represent the psionics corner (he has a lightsaber made from the power of his MIND! That'll be awesome, right?).

If you absolutely needed an arcanist, a Green Star Adept would probably do the trick. Maybe starting out as a Bard...

Myou
2009-09-11, 05:05 PM
I'd say Warlocks are slightly underpowered, but can be an entertaining class to play and are not that far behind balanced classes. If anything, they could use a few more Invocations known, and maybe a small damage boost to EB (like Cha to damage with EB shots when not using a Blast Shape Invocation?).

Well, it depends what you compare them to. :smalltongue:


And I agree with your assessment of the CW Samurai. How the devs convinced themselves to make that a PC base class is beyond me.

Well it's better than the Truenamer. :smallamused:

Temet Nosce
2009-09-11, 05:07 PM
Well it's better than the Truenamer. :smallamused:

Pfft, you're supposed to get weaker as you level. Makes perfect sense.

Myou
2009-09-11, 05:08 PM
Pfft, you're supposed to get weaker as you level. Makes perfect sense.

Yeah, that whole thing with BAB, saves and spell levels going up as you level? That's a typo. :smalltongue:

Frosty
2009-09-11, 05:28 PM
I'd say that Yoda is a gestalt Swordsage//Soulknife

woodenbandman
2009-09-11, 05:33 PM
A party of commoners. Abuse Handle Animal and Diplomacy.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-11, 05:35 PM
Why not do something like Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Ranger 1/Scout 1/Spellthief 1/Warlock 1/Bard 1/Binder 1/Hexblade 1/Barbarian 1/Duskblade 1/Knight 1/Dragon Shaman 1/Marshal 1/Soulknife 1/Truenamer 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Fighter 1/Paladin of Tyranny 1/Totemist 1?

Keld Denar
2009-09-11, 05:38 PM
And chicken infested!!! If you are gonna be commoners and abuse skills, might as well abuse flaws too! That extra feat will allow you to nab Skill Focus in yet another skill, and really....can you ever have too much chicken lying around?

EDIT:

Why not do something like Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Ranger 1/Scout 1/Spellthief 1/Warlock 1/Bard 1/Binder 1/Hexblade 1/Barbarian 1/Duskblade 1/Knight 1/Dragon Shaman 1/Marshal 1/Soulknife 1/Truenamer 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Fighter 1/Paladin of Tyranny 1/Totemist 1?
If you are gonna do that, at least take them in alphabetical order!!!

Godskook
2009-09-11, 05:44 PM
Focused Specialist Evoker, barring Conjuration, Abjuration and Transmutation. Bonus points if you can find prestige classes that will allow you can bar Necromancy too.

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 05:47 PM
Focused Specialist Evoker, barring Conjuration, Abjuration and Transmutation. Bonus points if you can find prestige classes that will allow you can bar Necromancy too.

You can bar another 3 schools by taking a level in both incantrix and red wizard, but you must have abjuration available for incantrix.

Myou
2009-09-11, 05:49 PM
Focused Specialist Evoker, barring Conjuration, Abjuration and Transmutation. Bonus points if you can find prestige classes that will allow you can bar Necromancy too.

But enchantment and illusion are pretty good.... Can't we ban those too?

Grumman
2009-09-11, 05:54 PM
Make one of them a Blighter. Possibly one that thinks poorly of the other members' strategy of challenging the PCs in major cities.

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 05:55 PM
But enchantment and illusion are pretty good.... Can't we ban those too?

Enchantment is awful, by far the worst school. The entire school is stopped by a single spell that lasts all day.

Evocation at least gets contingency and forcecage.

Myou
2009-09-11, 05:58 PM
Enchantment is awful, by far the worst school. The entire school is stopped by a single spell that lasts all day.

Evocation at least gets contingency and forcecage.

Wow, what about just dispelling the foe first? D:

Godskook
2009-09-11, 06:07 PM
But enchantment and illusion are pretty good.... Can't we ban those too?

1)Yeah, if you can find a way of barring 6 schools, go ahead.

2)Enchantment good? Really? That was my other choice for the specialization school.

Skorj
2009-09-11, 06:08 PM
Focused Specialist Evoker, barring Conjuration, Abjuration and Transmutation. Bonus points if you can find prestige classes that will allow you can bar Necromancy too.

Oooh, I like it. Again the point is something that a player ftom other fantasy RPGs/MMOs would naturally build.

In 1E, BlasterCasters were great, and conjuration and transmutation weren't that great (the good stuff often got banned as too cheesy). Necromancy was often ignored by good characters.

I've made focus specialist evokers barring conjuration and necromancy in old-school games, where that rocked. Perfect.:smallbiggrin:


And where the heck is chicken-infested from? It's too darn funy to leave out.

Zaq
2009-09-11, 06:31 PM
Needs moar Soulborn.

Seriously, the class is a disgrace. They get five whole melds at level twenty! Woo boy! And they've got such awesome melds to choose from! Yeah, Soulborns are made of terrible and fail, and you need to include them. At least the Paladin gets Battle Blessing.

Also, Divine Mind. WTF is up with the Divine Mind, anyway? Why does it exist? I got bored with the one I played as an NPC. They're ridiculously lame.

industrious
2009-09-11, 07:01 PM
1)Yeah, if you can find a way of barring 6 schools, go ahead.


Black Mage. It's a homebrew class on the WoTC boards. You only get Evocation and Conjuration spells, with an option for one additional school at 5th level. Seems a good way to start. It also has the Wild Mage's variable caster level, and a 10% chance that every time it casts a spell, it won't be able to the next round. I played one once; it was fun, if annoying. At least the guy playing the fighter was happy.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527870/%5B35%5D_Black_Mage_Base_Class_Peach?post_id=33190 0474#331900474

Godskook
2009-09-11, 07:05 PM
Black Mage. It's a homebrew class on the WoTC boards. You only get Evocation and Conjuration spells, with an option for one additional school at 5th level. Seems a good way to start. It also has the Wild Mage's variable caster level, and a 10% chance that every time it casts a spell, it won't be able to the next round. I played one once; it was fun, if annoying. At least the guy playing the fighter was happy.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527870/%5B35%5D_Black_Mage_Base_Class_Peach?post_id=33190 0474#331900474

I wasn't counting homebrew because at that point, it becomes extremely easy.

TengYt
2009-09-11, 07:07 PM
Human Fighter using Core stuff only :smallwink:

Oslecamo
2009-09-11, 07:10 PM
I have the leader of the party, Eladriel the mighty!

Sun elf wizard with 6 con, frail flaw and quick trait.

Eladriel starts with 0 hp! At every level up he gains 0hp!

If he tries to take a standard action of any kind, he instantly falls uncoscious and starts bleeding to death.

Most fail character evar or most fail character EVAR?

Doc Roc
2009-09-11, 07:13 PM
I have the leader of the party, Eladriel the mighty!

Sun elf wizard with 6 con, frail flaw and quick trait.

Eladriel starts with 0 hp! At every level up he gains 0hp!

If he tries to take a standard action of any kind, he instantly falls uncoscious and starts bleeding to death.

Most fail character evar or most fail character EVAR?


http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/members/vertigo+paris/albums/misc+pics-36/thread-derail-1953.jpg
Thanks again for that.

industrious
2009-09-11, 07:14 PM
I wasn't counting homebrew because at that point, it becomes extremely easy.

Then how about a warmage/favored soul/mystic thurge?

jindra34
2009-09-11, 07:18 PM
Needs moar Soulborn.

Seriously, the class is a disgrace. They get five whole melds at level twenty! Woo boy! And they've got such awesome melds to choose from! Yeah, Soulborns are made of terrible and fail, and you need to include them. At least the Paladin gets Battle Blessing.

Also, Divine Mind. WTF is up with the Divine Mind, anyway? Why does it exist? I got bored with the one I played as an NPC. They're ridiculously lame.

Hey don't yell so much at the Soulborn, when played decently they can make paladins go cry in a corner. Of course playing them decently tends to involve ignoring the melds and using essentia for other stuff.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-11, 07:26 PM
Stuff that's not obviously stupid, except by D&D rules,

Sure. How about a not-very-strong but agile fighter? Or a rogue using a club as a weapon? Or a wise and charismatic wizard (Gandalf surely is wise and charismatic, no?)

woodenbandman
2009-09-11, 10:16 PM
Half Orc Favored Soul, Mongrelfolk Sorceror, Dragonborn Dwarf Rogue, Gnome Paladin.

Godskook
2009-09-11, 10:47 PM
Focused Specialist Evoker, barring Conjuration, Abjuration and Transmutation. Bonus points if you can find prestige classes that will allow you can bar Necromancy too.

Upgrade: Make this a male Drow FS Evoker.

Also, use a truenamer, but give him an item familiar.

Draz74
2009-09-11, 11:04 PM
I was also going to recommend Truenamer for your caster (though, IMHO, the Truenamer is quite a bit stronger than the CW Samurai).

Feel free to make the party skillmonkey a CAdv Ninja, too. Who fights unarmed.

Amiel
2009-09-11, 11:06 PM
An orc adept/ur-priest; he doesn't know that he constantly steals spells from himself.

A wild elf barbarian/wizard/eldritch knight; poor Int, poor Con, poor Wis, hilarity ensues.

A halfling diviner.

A halfling samurai. A gnome samurai.

An any binder; negligible skills invested in needed skill, but enough that it is still usable, poor ability scores.

Skorj
2009-09-11, 11:09 PM
So, rogues? The rogues I've seen were fairly balanced - how would someone wanting to play The Gray Mouser end up doing it wrong? (You know, it's amazing how much that character has influenced RPGs over the past 30 years - I'll never understand that.) Maybe it's easier to do Bard wrong?

And clerics? All I can think of is multi-classing. Mystic Theurge is an interesting approach, but surely a ranger-10/cleric-10 is weaker?

Godskook
2009-09-11, 11:18 PM
And clerics? All I can think of is multi-classing. Mystic Theurge is an interesting approach, but surely a ranger-10/cleric-10 is weaker?

Wait, you're going for weak? I thought you were going for "should be weak", and then subverting it by making them rather strong despite it(or at least decent).

Zeta Kai
2009-09-11, 11:42 PM
Or a wise and charismatic wizard (Gandalf surely is wise and charismatic, no?)

We've been over this. Gandalf wasn't a wizard. He was an angel prancing around like a wizard. Tolkien's Wizards Were Different.

Skorj
2009-09-12, 12:27 AM
Wait, you're going for weak? I thought you were going for "should be weak", and then subverting it by making them rather strong despite it(or at least decent).

Different sort of subversion. :smallamused:

I'm looking for character ideas that seem quite strong to someone who doesn't know the rules (but is experienced in other games and fantasy lore) - ideas that "should" work, but in fact fail hard mechanically. I want the party to be a meta-game joke, but not an in-game joke.

Then I'll turn around and use this group as a foil for a group of hyper-optimized wizards. Of course my "linear guild" has no real chance of victory, and will be more comical than threatening. Unless of course the PC party manages to play very poorly, and actually lose to the losers, in which case the story will be told for decades. :smallbiggrin:

daggaz
2009-09-12, 12:39 AM
We've been over this. Gandalf wasn't a wizard. He was an angel prancing around like a wizard. Tolkien's Wizards Were Different.

Which is precisely why aasimar get +2 to both wisdom and charisma and no other penalties.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-12, 12:46 AM
Vow of Poverty. Characters that abstain from using items to prop themselves up are all over the place.

Also, this is off topic but every time I see your thread title this runs through my head for some reason...


I can see what you see not
Vision milky, then eyes rot.
When you turn, they will be gone,
Whispering their hidden song.

Then you see what cannot be
Shadows move where light should be.
Out of darkness, out of mind,
Cast down into the Halls of the Blind.

dspeyer
2009-09-12, 12:52 AM
Wait, you're going for weak? I thought you were going for "should be weak", and then subverting it by making them rather strong despite it(or at least decent).

If that's it, I see two ideas:

Troll Paladin 2 / Pious Templar 1 / Apostle of Peace 3 / Divine Oracle 2
Born unusually wise to a monstrous race, he rejected evil and strove to bring goodness to his people. Eventually, he joined the church of Pelor, and there learned that using violence to end violence is futile. Ever after, he dedicated himself to peace.
Why it's crazy: monstrous race, penalties to mental stats, up to ECL 14 completely focused on violence, and then he rejects it.
Why it works: how do you kill him?

I see that the party includes a gnome illusionist. This will be less effective against a permanently blind swordsage/mo9 who maintains Hearing the Air at all times. Houserule that since the illusionist has never listened carefully to the sounds of footsteps reflected from a wall, he doesn't know what they sound like and can't ghost-sound them.

FMArthur
2009-09-12, 02:14 AM
Basically, just look at some races and find a class that is hindered by the racial adjustments. A wide variety of such combinations will suck and not really provide a decent reason fluff-wise for it.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-12, 04:36 AM
We've been over this. Gandalf wasn't a wizard. He was an angel prancing around like a wizard. Tolkien's Wizards Were Different.
Miss the point much?

Since the OP wants an ineffective party, using and I quote "Stuff that's not obviously stupid, except by D&D rules," one example of such is a character utilizing the Wizard class, focusing on attributes commonly displayed by certain characters in fiction designated as "Wizard", said attributes being wisdom and charisma.

For a wizard, prioritizing wisdom and charisma over intelligence is "not obviously stupid, except by D&D rules", see?

Yeah yeah (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke)

Kulture
2009-09-12, 01:00 PM
No on the soulknife, it needs to be a soulknife/metamind.
After all, metamind is the whipping boy of psionic prestige classes.

My personal thoughts would be that after the anti-group of failed optimisation, just drop a group of TOB martial adepts on them, all geared toward anti magical combat, and optimised to the abyss and back.

Bonus points if there's a Goliath warblade wielding a fullblade and wearing a gigantic tetrahedral helmet (but little other armor) that functions as a mask of dread.
He should move extremely slowly and have a massive intimidation modifier, along with bizarre and sexually violent tendencies...bonus points if he has an undead/extraplanar template...with a greatspear for an alternate weapon...
also he should be names Rayad Pe'ramayed.
Drop this guy on the party in a labyrinthe like corridor and watch the party spaz out.

Dragonmuncher
2009-09-12, 01:20 PM
I like the idea of the truenamer. Have him be extremely self-important, what with knowing the actual language of Creation... but then he's totally ineffective. Whoops.

Umael
2009-09-12, 02:00 PM
Eladriel starts with 0 hp! At every level up he gains 0hp!

The minimum starting hit points are 1. The minimum hit points a character gains every level is 1.

PHB 3.5 pg 23

Eldariel
2009-09-12, 02:10 PM
The minimum starting hit points are 1. The minimum hit points a character gains every level is 1.

PHB 3.5 pg 23

Specifically overwritten by Frail.

Oslecamo
2009-09-12, 03:18 PM
We've been over this. Gandalf wasn't a wizard. He was an angel prancing around like a wizard. Tolkien's Wizards Were Different.

However, what we haven't been over is that by RAW teleport doesn't work to or in places of great physical or magic power(yes it says that on the spell, go read it again, most people miss it), so it totally explains why Gandalf is a wizard and why he couldn't just teleport to Mordor (since if a giant badass volcano of doom isn't a place of great physical or magic power I don't know what it is).

He did cast fireball after all:smalltongue:

Milskidasith
2009-09-12, 03:22 PM
It says "may" not work. And there is no such line for G. Teleport.

Oslecamo
2009-09-12, 03:27 PM
It says "may" not work.

Wich is up for the DM to decide, not the player. And I bet the BBEG's lair would be that kind of place.





And there is no such line for G. Teleport.

There's also no line in G.teleport that says that it takes you to anywhere, since it is, you know, based on teleport and all. It only removes the chance of arriving off target for lack of information.

lord_khaine
2009-09-12, 04:45 PM
For your gnome monk, if you give him the giant killing stance from ToC, so he suddenly gets +2 to hit, and +4 to damage against those larger than himself, then he might be a bit closer to Yoda.

Milskidasith
2009-09-12, 04:47 PM
Another idea: (Regular) elf wizard. Elves are totally great wizards, right?

Pie Guy
2009-09-12, 06:35 PM
Sword and Board fighter.

industrious
2009-09-12, 07:03 PM
Half-dragons

Unarmed monk/drunken master.

ninja/dread pirates