what's wrong with CW samuri?

[oxinabox]

I've seen the class, and it doesn't look much worse than a TWF fighter.
of course that in itself is a fun, but less than optimum build.

TWF's fun, make more attack rolls, even if they do all miss

Does the class have massive MAD?
I guess it might, it gets ki powers right?

[Kylarra]

If your primary descriptor is "not much worse than a TWF Fighter" you may have issues.

[Signmaker]

It's a fighter, but with what amounts to zero choice on your 'bonus' feats and a really bad set of abilities. And there aren't all that many of them. At least monks have it where they've got a set of random abilities that depending on your class setup may or may not synergize. Samurai have what's essentially...very very little.

[PId6]

Like a fighter, but with fixed (bad) weapons, fixed (bad) feats (and less of them), a crappy smite ability, a decent (but easily replaceable) Staredown ability, and a useless capstone.

[Draz74]

At least the TWF can choose to have the same kind of weapon in each hand, so his (lame) Weapon Focus/Specialization feats will at least work for both of them. :smallyuk:

[Frosty]

If your primary descriptor is "not much worse than a TWF Fighter" you may have issues.

This. Except, it's not "may have issues" rather it's "you have LOTS of issues."

[SparkMandriller]

What's right with CW samurai?

[FMArthur]

It's equivalent to a TWF fighter made by someone who doesn't even know how to play the game, or whose goal is to design their character around the 'incompetent peasant militia' archetype instead of an ordinary hero.

[Eldariel]

Have you checked the feat progression? You get TWF on level 2, ITWF ON LEVEL 10 AND GTWF ON LEVEL 15! That's 5 levels late. Then you gotta fight with Bastard Sword (we in the business call that a trap), and get only 1 decent feat over your levels in Improved Initiative (Fighters at least get 11 bonus feats you can choose for yourself instead of getting limited versions of EWP: Bastard Sword, Quick Draw, TWF et co.).

And remember that MAD? Yeah, they still need Str, Con, Cha and do want some Dex & probably Int. But yeah, it's about equivalent to the NPC Warrior.

[Deepblue706]

And remember that MAD? Yeah, they still need Str, Con, Cha and do want some Dex & probably Int. But yeah, it's about equivalent to the NPC Warrior.

The funny thing about the DEX bit is that Samurai get TWF for "free", which suggests to me that it's not entirely necessary to have a very good score. But, Samurai lack any of kind of shield proficiency, which IMO tends to be very necessary before you get decent defensive equipment (maybe level 4). So, I imagine there's a fair chance you'll die young, without a very-good CON.

And EWP isn't even necessary to use the Katana two-handed. Since you can't use shields, you're specifically getting this proficiency for Two-Weapon Fighting.

And, since your TWF requires both the Katana and Wakazashi, you can't ever use it with any Weapon Styles (there are no Bastard Sword + Shortsword combos) or even share the Weapon Focus bonuses.

I'd say Samurai is a class for those who get very, very good rolls and want something wacky to play.

[PId6]

Have you checked the feat progression? You get TWF on level 2, ITWF ON LEVEL 10 AND GTWF ON LEVEL 15!
Nope, it's worse than that. Make that 11 and 16. :smallyuk:

[Zeta Kai]

And the sad thing is even this sub-optimal garbage is better than the Truenamer. :smallsigh: Seriously, WotC could at least polish the turds that it sends out the door. :smallannoyed:

[nightwyrm]

And the sad thing is even this sub-optimal garbage is better than the Truenamer. :smallsigh: Seriously, WotC could at least polish the turds that it sends out the door. :smallannoyed:

Not true. With the right skill boosting items you can break Truenamer.

[Yuki Akuma]

With the right items and feats, a Truenamer can be at least tier 3 or maybe even 2.

CW Samurai is tier 6 and no matter what you do will stay there.

[elliott20]

A CW samurai "not much worse than a TWF fighter"? That's like saying "it's just a flesh wound".

[Myou]

Not true. With the right skill boosting items you can break Truenamer.

Thus is is even worse - you have to powergame just to make the truenamer work.

[Kobold-Bard]

Not true. With the right skill boosting items you can break Truenamer.


With the right items and feats, a Truenamer can be at least tier 3 or maybe even 2.

CW Samurai is tier 6 and no matter what you do will stay there.

Any links you could offer for advice with the Truenamer? I'd like to try one out sometime.

[nightwyrm]

Thus is is even worse - you have to powergame just to make the truenamer work.

Yes, but at least you could powergame with it. You can't even do that with the samurai. :smalltongue:

Don't get me wrong. The truenamer is broken (in the sense that the class mechanic doesn't work properly), but at least you can make a powerful character with it. You can't with the samurai.

[Yuki Akuma]

Take Skill Focus (Truespeak) and get a custom item that grants an insight bonus to Truespeak checks. Then get that amulet that grants an enhancement bonus to same.

And get a few more items that grant different bonuses while you're at it.

[nightwyrm]

Any links you could offer for advice with the Truenamer? I'd like to try one out sometime.

Well, it's not that complicated. Truenamers works off skill checks but their target DCs scales by 2x CR, so the math is off. But you can get items, feats etc. that boosts skills for a relatively low price.

[ZeroNumerous]

CW Samurai can be Tier 4 if you make an Orc ubercharger. But it'll take him 12 full levels to have the full Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper and Headless Charge combo. So by the time the CW Samurai can start charging, he's only able to replicate the exact same thing that Fighter was doing six levels ago.

If fighters scale linearly and wizards scale quadratically, then CW Samurai simply does not scale.

[Tengu_temp]

Yes, but at least you could powergame with it. You can't even do that with the samurai. :smalltongue:

Don't get me wrong. The truenamer is broken (in the sense that the class mechanic doesn't work properly), but at least you can make a powerful character with it. You can't with the samurai.

To be honest, samurai can be optimized - as a full BAB class he makes an okay ubercharger. There's just nothing he can do that other classes can't do better, and I mean low tier classes like fighter or ranger.

Damn, ninja-ed on the same topic. What are the odds?

[nightwyrm]

To be honest, samurai can be optimized - as a full BAB class he makes an okay ubercharger. There's just nothing he can do that other classes can't do better, and I mean low tier classes like fighter or ranger.


Well you can get full BAB with the warrior too, so yeah....I guess you can optimize anything, but the samurai is a terrible class to start your optimization on.

[Keld Denar]

Staredown + Imperious Command + that armor that allows you to intimidate as a move action + Never Outnumbered skill trick means a lot of people are gonna go running...unless they are undead, vermin, plants, constructs, mindless, paladins, or otherwise immune to [Fear] and/or [Mind Affecting].

Still, most of that is because Imperious Command is so good, not because Samurai is. Barbarian and Hexblade still do the scary thing better...or better yet, a Barbarian/Hexblade.

[Glimbur]

You could dual wield Sunblades. They count as both a bastard sword and a short sword for many purposes. It's still silly to try to make a CW samurai better, but that will help a little.

[Kylarra]

Any links you could offer for advice with the Truenamer? I'd like to try one out sometime.
Here's one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269).

[Shpadoinkle]

what's wrong with CW samuri?

"Everything" is a good place to start.

[Morty]

You could dual wield Sunblades. They count as both a bastard sword and a short sword for many purposes. It's still silly to try to make a CW samurai better, but that will help a little.

Except that samurai's TWF works only if he wields a katana and a wakizashi.
I suppose you could play a samurai, kill stuff and contribute to the team, though. It's just that a fighter will do it much better.

[Kobold-Bard]

"Everything" is a good place to start.

Not true. They could have have not given in Full BAB. Why on Earth they would not do this is beyond me, but it could be worse (sort of).

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Except that samurai's TWF works only if he wields a katana and a wakizashi.
I recall that katana and wakizashi are counted as bastard swords and short swords respectively.

[Doc Roc]

I recall that katana and wakizashi are counted as bastard swords and short swords respectively.

You are correct.

There exists a single good build with CW samurai, but it requires a thought bottle, a friendly succubus, and the Ronin PrC. Oh and sunblades.


Oddly, those go together pretty well. :)

[Morty]

I recall that katana and wakizashi are counted as bastard swords and short swords respectively.

Yeah, they are and I just misread Glimbur's post. *smacks self* Not that it'd help the samurai much, of course.

[kamikasei]

There exists a single good build with CW samurai, but it requires a thought bottle, a friendly succubus, and the Ronin PrC. Oh and sunblades.

I'm intrigued. I can only think you're building to a point and then using level drain shenanigans to rebuild, but how do you keep whatever you got before the drain?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Thought Bottle.

[Kobold-Bard]

@Pharaoh's Fist: What was the outcome of the plan in your sig. I'm intrigued.

[Doc Roc]

This (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNDlkdndtY3JmaA&hl=en) Is the research I did a while ago. Maybe you will find it interesting?

[Gorgondantess]

If fighters scale linearly and wizards scale quadratically, then CW Samurai simply does not scale.

No, they do scale. They scale logarithmically. This is the opposite of a quadratic scale- decent boost the first few levels, then the bonuses keep getting more and more minor 'till it pretty much flatlines...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If so many opponents weren't immune to fear effects, it might be a better class.

I can see some cheese involving Staredown + Never Outnumbered so you can get out of the class by level 6. With some Barbarian and Intimidating Rage and some other ways to improve Intimidate, it might be worthwhile to a battlefield control build.

Of course, you could get it easier with just straight Barbarian, but hey...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

@Pharaoh's Fist: What was the outcome of the plan in your sig. I'm intrigued.

The person requesting clever ideas never put it into practice, so we shall never know.

[DragoonWraith]

No, they do scale. They scale logarithmically. This is the opposite of a quadratic scale- decent boost the first few levels, then the bonuses keep getting more and more minor 'till it pretty much flatlines...
Logarithmically... with a significant negative shift to begin with.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Now I'm tempted to create a CW Samurai + some way to produce a psionic effect similar to Crushing Dispair... and name him Shinji Ikari. Win by making the opponent more Emo than he is!

Edit: Empathic Transfer, Hostile!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Mindcrush?

[Draz74]

Death Urge, duh. :smallamused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mindcrush?

If Empathic Feedback didn't cap at 5 damage, I'd use that. Seeing as how it completely blows, however, I think Empathic Transfer, Hostile works well.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Death Urge, duh. :smallamused:

MIND CRUSH!

[Doc Roc]

I suggest that it grows according to the inverse Ackermann function, actually, as it's clearly sub-logarithmic.

[Keld Denar]

This thread needs more Fourier Transforms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform), its clearly not nearly depressing enough.

[Roderick_BR]

Not true. They could have have not given in Full BAB. Why on Earth they would not do this is beyond me, but it could be worse (sort of).
Like the Marshal from Handbook miniatures, that is a militar trained sergeant... with 3/4 BAB?

Really, the samurai is like a heavy armored ranger, with a little better HD, and without spells/animal companion. WotC overestimates their crappy TWF too much.

[kamikasei]

This (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNDlkdndtY3JmaA&hl=en) Is the research I did a while ago. Maybe you will find it interesting?

Yeahnope, I have no idea what the thinking behind that is.

[oxinabox]

Like the Marshal from Handbook miniatures, that is a militar trained sergeant... with 3/4 BAB?

Really, the samurai is like a heavy armored ranger, with a little better HD, and without spells/animal companion. WotC overestimates their crappy TWF too much.

Marshal is awesome cool, either for an npc, or maybe for a 2 lvl dip.

[Oslecamo]

Now I'm tempted to create a CW Samurai + some way to produce a psionic effect similar to Crushing Dispair... and name him Shinji Ikari. Win by making the opponent more Emo than he is!

Edit: Empathic Transfer, Hostile!

Hmm, isn't that pretty much every arcane caster out there? They are pathetic fragile creatures that know nothing but magic, so they use that magic to make everybody else suffer as much as they do.

[Doc Roc]

Hmm, isn't that pretty much every arcane caster out there? They are pathetic fragile creatures that know nothing but magic, so they use that magic to make everybody else suffer as much as they do.

So in your world, there are no gish builds, no battle sorcerers, no bards, no duskblades, no hexblades, and definitely no jade phoenix mage?

[Lycanthromancer]

I can turn a psion's psicrystal into the nastiest brute-beast you've ever lain eyes on.

That's right, not even a d4 for HD: HALF a d4, yo!

[Starbuck_II]

I got it.
Cancer Mage.
CW Samurai is so weak that Cancer Mage is not considered broken when they use it. :smallbiggrin:

[Zeta Kai]

So, what do you think of the OA Samurai? How do you think it compares to the CW version? I think it's dramatically superior, but it's still not a great class. Something like a Tier 5. Thoughts?

[PId6]

It's a fighter with two enchantable magic weapons and less bonus feats. You can just take the Ancestral Relic feat and be better off, though the samurai has the advantage of not having to open BoED to do it. Yeah, tier 5 seems right.

[oxinabox]

So, what do you think of the OA Samurai? How do you think it compares to the CW version? I think it's dramatically superior, but it's still not a great class. Something like a Tier 5. Thoughts?

just from reading it, OA samurai is a fighter, with the kensai ability to upgrade his weapons through gold (rather than XP)

[Woodsman]

just from reading it, OA samurai is a fighter, with the kensai ability to upgrade his weapons through gold (rather than XP)

And less bonus feats.

[Geddoe]

And two strong saves, 4+int per level skill points(with Iaijutsu as a class skill). People are always saying that fighter feats suck anyway, what harm is trading in a few for a bit of versatility outside combat(diplomancy, intimidate, sense motive, and even bluff if a scorpion) can double up as melee+party face.

Though even with all that and the Rokugan Technique feats as bonus feats, they are unlikely to get much above tier 5.

[ZeroNumerous]

Stuff about Oriental Adventure's Samurai rather than Complete Warrior Samurai

You sir, are simply barking up the wrong tree.

[Xenogears]

You sir, are simply barking up the wrong tree.

Except that someone specifically asked how OA samurai stacked up to CW samurai so his post was in fact perfectly on topic and useful as it expanded upon previous answers.

Also If you are only going to be playing for the first two or so levels OA samurai are great since they start with two masterwork weapons and nothing says they can't just get power attack and use the Katana two handed (actually the book encourages it).

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Hmm, isn't that pretty much every arcane caster out there? They are pathetic fragile creatures that know nothing but magic, so they use that magic to make everybody else suffer as much as they do.

I have made casters with more hit points than certain monks. (Granted, it was Giacomo's Joker monk, with a Con of 14 at level 20... magic items included)

[FMArthur]

People have been recommending OA samurai for years over the CW one, and it's better on account of simply having Psychic Warrior bonus feat progression, but it still doesn't look any good to me. The weapon enhancement part is particularly baffling to me, since it is just the normal cost of buying weapons that everyone uses.

[Yora]

OA Samurai is fighter with less feats, but he has the "ability" to get his weapons enchanted through praying, for the same price and the same amount of time, it would take to hire a spellcaster to do it for him.
Plus he has to spend weeks and later months meditating to get it done, while he can just hire a spellcaster and come back when the work is finished. So it's actually more expensive, because he can't work during the time.

[PId6]

The nice thing about that ability is that you can sacrifice items worth the same as the enhancement, meaning you don't have to suffer the 50% gp loss from selling loot and buying the weapon you want. But you get the same thing from the Ancestral Relic feat, so meh.

[F.H. Zebedee]

One might argue that anything involving the CW Samurai is the wrong tree in the first place. ;)

Yeah, it's pretty bad when your two best class attributes are... Well, some minor intimidate stuff (when intimidate is already substantially worse than most other social skills), and Full BAB, which is pretty much useless unless you have the means to power attack like a madman.

OA Samurai is a lot more interesting, really, since he's more "Fighter Alternative" than "Fighter Glued to One Horrible Feat Tree".

[Zeta Kai]

Yeah, it's pretty bad when your two best class attributes are... Well, some minor intimidate stuff (when intimidate is already substantially worse than most other social skills), and Full BAB, which is pretty much useless unless you have the means to power attack like a madman.

There's nothing preventing a CW Samurai from taking Power Attack with their regular feats. They could even take it at level 1, which isn't a bad idea. Mind you, I'm not defending the Samurai's poor design, but I think a lot of it's problems can be easily fixed with a decent selection of normal feats. A human Samurai should be able to optimize sufficiently to contribute meaningfully in your average campaign, even without taking flaws. I think that some people on this thread are forgetting that a Samurai gets feats like any other character.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Too bad Demoralize only lasts one round. If a way to make the fear effects duration longer, it could be a very viable class...

[Yora]

There's nothing preventing a CW Samurai from taking Power Attack with their regular feats. They could even take it at level 1, which isn't a bad idea. Mind you, I'm not defending the Samurai's poor design, but I think a lot of it's problems can be easily fixed with a decent selection of normal feats. A human Samurai should be able to optimize sufficiently to contribute meaningfully in your average campaign, even without taking flaws. I think that some people on this thread are forgetting that a Samurai gets feats like any other character.
But is there any reason not to take Fighter instead?

[Kobold-Bard]

But is there any reason not to take Fighter instead?

If you want to play a Samurai who uses a katana and a wakizashi (are they the right names?) and is uber-lawful.

When it comes to certain classes fluff trumps power.

Mechanically I wouldn't know. Never played one.

[Spiryt]

If you want to play a Samurai who uses a katana and a wakizashi (are they the right names?) and is uber-lawful.

When it comes to certain classes fluff trumps power.

Mechanically I wouldn't know. Never played one.

I don't normally support "just play something else" camp, but this time I will.

Beacuse you can just play Fighter, call D&D longsword/scimitar - katana and kukri/shortsword - wakizashi, invest heavilly in Intimidate, and play lawful guy.

And you have it. With really much more options, beacuse of bonus feats.

[quick_comment]

If you want to play a Samurai who uses a katana and a wakizashi (are they the right names?) and is uber-lawful.

When it comes to certain classes fluff trumps power.

Mechanically I wouldn't know. Never played one.

You can play an uber-lawful warrior who fights with a katana and wakizashi (which btw, would not be a typical samurai), but have all your class levels in fighter or warblade. Warblade works especially well - just rename all your moves to techniques out of the book of 5 rings.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You can play an uber-lawful warrior who fights with a katana and wakizashi (which btw, would not be a typical samurai), but have all your class levels in fighter or warblade. Warblade works especially well - just rename all your moves to techniques out of the book of 5 rings.

Plus the Anime/Wuxai flavor of 'calling out ridiculous names for maneuvers' which is so prevelant...

[quick_comment]

Im actually sort of surprised that the maneuvers ARENT named after a book of 5 rings.


"To Move the Shade
"To move the shade" is used when you cannot see the enemy's spirit.

In large-scale strategy, when you cannot see the enemy's position, indicate that you are about to attack strongly, to discover his resources. It is easy then to defeat hin with a different method once you see his resources.

In single combat, if the enemy takes up a rear or side attitude of the long sword so that you cannot see his intention, make a feint attack, and the enemy will show his long sword, thinking he sees your spirit. Benefiting from what you are shown, you can win with certainty. If you are negligent you will miss the timing. Research this well. "

Is that not exactly what shadow blade technique is?


"To Tread Down the Sword
"To tread down the sword" is a principle often used in strategy. First, in large-scale strategy, when the enemy first discharges bows and guns and then attacks, it is difficult for us to attack if we are busy loading powder into our guns or notching our arrows. The spirit is to attack quickly while the enemy is still shooting with bows or guns. The spirit is to win by "treading down" as we receive the enemy's attack.

In single combat, we cannot get a decisive victory by cutting, with a "tee-dum tee-dum" feeling, in the wake of the enemy's attacking long sword. We must defeat him at the start of his attack, in the spirit of treading him down with the feet, so that he cannot rise again to the attack.

"Treading" does not simply mean treading with the feet. Tread with the body, tread with the spirit, and, of course, tread and cut with the long sword. You must achieve the spirit of not allowing the enemy to attack a second time. This is the spirit of forestalling in every sense. Once at the enemy, you should not aspire just to strike him, but to cling after the attack. You must study this deeply. "

Exorcism of Steel


"The Body of a Rock
When you have mastered the Way of strategy you can suddenly make your body like a rock, and ten thousand things cannot touch you. This is the body of a rock.

You will not be moved. Oral tradition. "
Basically any of the stone dragon stances.



"The Flowing Water Cut
The "Flowing Water Cut" is used when you are struggling blade to blade with the enemy. When he breaks and quickly withdraws trying to spring with his long sword, expand your body and spirit and cut him as slowly as possible with your long sword, following your body like stagnant water. You can cut with certainty if you learn this. You must discern the enemy's grade. "

The setting sun stance that lets you take a 5ft step when your enemy does

And so on

[Lycanthromancer]

Plus the Anime/Wuxai flavor of 'calling out ridiculous names for maneuvers' which is so prevelant...

I hope that was tongue-in-cheek, really. ALL martial arts styles (including European and African ones) give names to their fighting moves.

You have to call them SOMETHING if you're trying to teach and/or learn them, after all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I hope that was tongue-in-cheek, really. ALL martial arts styles (including European and African ones) give names to their fighting moves.

You have to call them SOMETHING if you're trying to teach and/or learn them, after all.

You can call them something, but some of the moves in the anime sound so... wierd. And they absolutely insist on shouting the name of the technique as they execute it...

[Lycanthromancer]

You can call them something, but some of the moves in the anime sound so... wierd. And they absolutely insist on shouting the name of the technique as they execute it...

But where in ToB does it say that maneuvers have a verbal component?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But where in ToB does it say that maneuvers have a verbal component?

Most players do tend to around the gaming table...

[sofawall]

If you want to play a Samurai who uses a katana and a wakizashi (are they the right names?) and is uber-lawful.

When it comes to certain classes fluff trumps power.

Mechanically I wouldn't know. Never played one.

Funny thing. Fluff is never a goodshould never be the defining reason to pick a class, as fluff is mutable, changeable and transferable. If you like the fluff, but hate the mechanics, pick another class with more proper mechanics and refluff it.

Seems like it's getting a little close to the Stormwind Fallacy.

[Lycanthromancer]

Most players do tend to around the gaming table...

"I use White Raven Tactics to let Fighter have his turn. It's your turn, Fighter."

"I Power Attack the hill giant. Cleric is up next."

"Turn undead! Black Mage!"

"I cast Magic Missile at the darkness!"

You kind of have to say the name of whatever action you're performing, else how will anyone actually know what you're doing? Saying the name of the move you're doing seems kinda...I dunno...necessary?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

"I use White Raven Tactics to let Fighter have his turn. It's your turn, Fighter."

"I Power Attack the hill giant. Cleric is up next."

"Turn undead! Black Mage!"

"I cast Magic Missile at the darkness!"

You kind of have to say the name of whatever action you're performing, else how will anyone actually know what you're doing? Saying the name of the move you're doing seems kinda...I dunno...necessary?

Perhaps I should rephrase:

Most of the players around my gaming table seem to think that the verbal component of any ToB maneuver is for the character to loudly declare the name of said maneuver being initiated. Like that bad guy on Jackie Chan's Adventures, the cartoon

[Yukitsu]

If you want to play a Samurai who uses a katana and a wakizashi (are they the right names?) and is uber-lawful.

When it comes to certain classes fluff trumps power.

Mechanically I wouldn't know. Never played one.

Knight works much better for that though.

[Sinfire Titan]

Perhaps I should rephrase:

Most of the players around my gaming table seem to think that the verbal component of any ToB maneuver is for the character to loudly declare the name of said maneuver being initiated. Like that bad guy on Jackie Chan's Adventures, the cartoon

Hak-Fu? He's an idiot.

Your players are giving the book their own flavor. There is nothing in Tome of Battle that requires you to say the name of the maneuver you are using. People do it either as a misconception or to mock TV shows that do it too much.

[Tavar]

Plus, historically, the Samurai were Mounted Horse Archers/Lancers, not foot soldiers using swords. So a knight, paladin, hell even a ranger makes a better samurai than the samurai class.

[Starbuck_II]

Perhaps I should rephrase:

Most of the players around my gaming table seem to think that the verbal component of any ToB maneuver is for the character to loudly declare the name of said maneuver being initiated. Like that bad guy on Jackie Chan's Adventures, the cartoon

Hak-Fu was awesome! He was like unstoppable. I'd love as mini-Hak-Fu. Does he say the reflavored name or the real name?

Hak-Fu at least changed the name and used a phrase, "Dragon breaks back ", for Bone Crusher.

[Akal Saris]

In our gaming table, it goes something like this:

Warblade PC: "OK, my character does *mumble mumble embarrassedly*.
DM (Me): What?
Warblade: He does sapphire nightmare blade on the enemy for 6 damage.
Other PCs: Woo look out! Gabe's doing his Jade Stallion Prance Attack again!

Oh, and CW samurai: talk about bad class design. At least the hexblade and swashbuckler were salvageable, and both had feats and items in other books designed for them (particularly in Complete Scoundrel and the MIC). Samurai? Never mentioned again.

[sofawall]

Sapphire Nightmare Blade for 6 damage? You doing something wrong there?

Also, at my table it's treated the same as Fireball, or Copywrite's Extraneous Hut. Just a name.

[Sinfire Titan]

In our gaming table, it goes something like this:

Warblade PC: "OK, my character does *mumble mumble embarrassedly*.
DM (Me): What?
Warblade: He does sapphire nightmare blade on the enemy for 6 damage.
Other PCs: Woo look out! Gabe's doing his Jade Stallion Prance Attack again!

Oh, and CW samurai: talk about bad class design. At least the hexblade and swashbuckler were salvageable, and both had feats and items in other books designed for them (particularly in Complete Scoundrel and the MIC). Samurai? Never mentioned again.

Then the PC's are being sarcastic jerks. If it is to the point that a Player is becoming embarrassed/annoyed to even play his own character, then it needs to stop. Tell them to put a sock in it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In our gaming table, it goes something like this:

Warblade PC: "OK, my character does *mumble mumble embarrassedly*.
DM (Me): What?
Warblade: He does sapphire nightmare blade on the enemy for 6 damage.
Other PCs: Woo look out! Gabe's doing his Jade Stallion Prance Attack again!

Oh, and CW samurai: talk about bad class design. At least the hexblade and swashbuckler were salvageable, and both had feats and items in other books designed for them (particularly in Complete Scoundrel and the MIC). Samurai? Never mentioned again.

Perhaps the fact that most of us are Anime junkies with a flair for the dramatic? More than one sheet has been destroyed by sloshing drinks while making grandiose gestures at our table.

[Crow]

Then the PC's are being sarcastic jerks. If it is to the point that a Player is becoming embarrassed/annoyed to even play his own character, then it needs to stop. Tell them to put a sock in it.

I don't think the players are making fun of the other player at all. I think they're making fun of the retarded names that WotC gave to some of the ToB powers.

[Yukitsu]

In our gaming table, it goes something like this:

Warblade PC: "OK, my character does *mumble mumble embarrassedly*.
DM (Me): What?
Warblade: He does sapphire nightmare blade on the enemy for 6 damage.
Other PCs: Woo look out! Gabe's doing his Jade Stallion Prance Attack again!


I had one of those moments, until I renamed my moves to real world ones.

Me: I use my "point of wrath" stance, and use my "iron door" strike.
Players: Lolol anime!1!
Me: Those are actual fourteen hundreds German moves, you moron. I have a black belt in karate, and most of my moves are just called "Kicking your panzy ass."

Pretty much stopped there.

[Zaq]

In our gaming table, it goes something like this:

Warblade PC: "OK, my character does *mumble mumble embarrassedly*.
DM (Me): What?
Warblade: He does sapphire nightmare blade on the enemy for 6 damage.
Other PCs: Woo look out! Gabe's doing his Jade Stallion Prance Attack again!


May I direct you to the PHB, page 110?


You can call your skills,
feats, and class features whatever your character
would call them. Lidda, the halfling rogue, talks
about “footpaddin’ ” rather than about “moving
silently,” so her player writes “Footpaddin’ ”
down on her character sheet to stand for the
Move Silently skill. Ember, the monk, calls her
Move Silently skill “Rice Paper Walk.”

(Emphasis added.)

Maneuvers are most certainly a class feature. If you're not happy using the printed names of the maneuvers, then DON'T. Make up your own. Make them as flashy or as simple as you like. Just make sure to give your GM a heads-up (and maybe a cheat sheet) first.

[Sinfire Titan]

I don't think the players are making fun of the other player at all. I think they're making fun of the retarded names that WotC gave to some of the ToB powers.

Five-Fold Ice Enervating Strike? Sure. Sapphire Nightmare Blade? Not so much. Steel Wind? No.

Some of them are, but others are decent. And the names are subjective anyway, seeing as it is fluff.

[Flickerdart]

I dunno, a "Pink Pony Rainbow Attack" isn't too embarrassing when it does more d6es in damage than you own.

[Keld Denar]

:haley: SNEAK ATTACK RAPID SHOT, BEECHES! :haley:

[Sinfire Titan]

I dunno, a "Pink Pony Rainbow Attack" isn't too embarrassing when it does more d6es in damage than you own.

That's a (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerRabbit)few different (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordSaladTitle) tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NonindicativeName) entirely (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HighOctaneNightmareFuel). (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchmuckBait)

[olentu]

I think it is five-shadow creeping ice enervation strike.

[Teron]

I think it is five-shadow creeping ice enervation strike.
Yep. It's like they felt the need to go completely, utterly overboard on one name, and that's the result.

[Diamondeye]

Perhaps the fact that most of us are Anime junkies with a flair for the dramatic? More than one sheet has been destroyed by sloshing drinks while making grandiose gestures at our table.

That's why you don't allow drinks on the firing char... err.. gaming table. :smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

As for the maneuvers, some of the like the 5 shadow blah blah are pretty ridiculous. Some, like Disarming Strike, not so much. REally if the player is embarassed to use his own abilities its time for some talk about acting like adults.

[Flickerdart]

That's a (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerRabbit)few different (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordSaladTitle) tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NonindicativeName) entirely (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HighOctaneNightmareFuel). (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchmuckBait)
Yeah, you know where I ended up from there? High Octane Nightmare Fuel page, real life examples. Thanks a ton. :smalleek:

[Sinfire Titan]

Yeah, you know where I ended up from there? High Octane Nightmare Fuel page, real life examples. Thanks a ton. :smalleek:

I put that there on purpose. There's a reason the period is linked to Schmuck Bait.

[FMArthur]

I just watched a terrifying Smoky the Bear advertisement because of you. Now I will never sleep again. :smallannoyed:

[ZeroNumerous]

Except that someone specifically asked how OA samurai stacked up to CW samurai so his post was in fact perfectly on topic and useful as it expanded upon previous answers.

Except you've seen to forgotten that every post -prior- to his addresses the weakness of CW samurai. Every prior post uniformly agrees that CW Samurai is weak to a ridiculous level. OA samurai cannot be worse, even if it is 'merely' Tier 5.

Further: The OP is wondering what's wrong CW Samurai, not OA Samurai. Without a relevant quote to which he's addressing, one must assume he is responding to the OP.

So yes, he is indeed barking up the wrong tree.


I put that there on purpose. There's a reason the period is linked to Schmuck Bait.

I enjoyed the link. Stupid people are hilarious.

[Kylarra]

I put that there on purpose. There's a reason the period is linked to Schmuck Bait.
That's why I read links before clicking!

[Akal Saris]

May I direct you to the PHB, page 110?

Maneuvers are most certainly a class feature. If you're not happy using the printed names of the maneuvers, then DON'T. Make up your own. Make them as flashy or as simple as you like. Just make sure to give your GM a heads-up (and maybe a cheat sheet) first.

Just to point out, I'm the DM in the group, not the PC or the ones teasing him. And I've made the same offer to him, but he just grinned and said that he didn't really mind it that much.

And I don't think it's mean-hearted - most of the other PCs just think that every maneuver in the ToB is a ridiculous kung fu move :P They really liked the maneuver cards that he used for his crusader though, so I think maybe the flashy new toys involved with the class might bring some of them around.

Personally, the only time I re-wrote the names for my characters' maneuvers was for a 4E vestige warlock, since the vestiges in 4E were so bland compared to 3.5's - so I made my own vestiges instead with the same mechanical benefits. I considered re-flavoring some of the maneuvers for my swordsage in a PBP game, but ultimately I went with the Shadow Hand fluff and had a great time with it - the Shadow Hand became a kind of oriental KGB or MI6 organization within the game world.

[Geddoe]

Except you've seen to forgotten that every post -prior- to his addresses the weakness of CW samurai. Every prior post uniformly agrees that CW Samurai is weak to a ridiculous level. OA samurai cannot be worse, even if it is 'merely' Tier 5.

Further: The OP is wondering what's wrong CW Samurai, not OA Samurai. Without a relevant quote to which he's addressing, one must assume he is responding to the OP.

So yes, he is indeed barking up the wrong tree.

Apparently, you can barely understand the written word. The 4 posts before mine were all a discussion about the OA samurai, one after the other. In fact my post could be seen as a direct response to the post right before mine(which I shouldn't need to quote, you just read it after all), but apparently you need to stroke your ... ego and jump on somebody on the internet overlooks facts like that.

I am not in fact barking up the wrong tree, you were barking at the wrong dog.