[3.5] Tibur-Kosj, worshiper of The Unbended Knee (Need help from the melee fans)

[Pika...]

Hey again,

I've had the little known Demon Lord Eblis floating around in my head for a good while now, and like the Cat Lord Rexfelis and the Gem Dragon deity of psionics Sardior, I feel he will be here to stay. Although unfortunately he was one of those NPCs/characters which was never expanded un to this day (I guess they leave little easter eggs for future writters to hopefully pick up?), what very little about him draws my attention.

You can find him on wikipedia's Demon Lords page Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_lord_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29#Known_demon_ lords).

Anyway, I finally has one of my daydream "visions" for a character to serve him today.




Tibur-Kosj
("Born as small" in Draconic)


Background:
Tibur-Kosj was the third egg laid in the hatchery of his birth kobold tribe (Tribe "Vyth" ["Steel" in Draconic]) by a middle-aged kobold female. Due to the number of eggs, and the age of the female he was a smaller egg than normal, and the hatchery maids mostly dismissed him believing he would not hatch. The very fact he survived unattended and unrotated unttill hatching would later in his life serve as the first sign of what he must become, though he would not think that until much later.

Being frailer, smaller, and weaker than even his fellow kobolds while maturing he was sent to the clergy of Kurtulmak to serve as an assistant to see if he would have any value to the tribe. There he did the best he could, and managed to make himself useful until his juvenile age category.

While at the clergy he spent his non-working hours fascinated by the reading material around him, perhaps a product of him being constantly shunned by his community as a whole for being "a weak burden". There, while told to organize an old crate of parchments concerning the Lords of the Abyss, he came across a dusty old parchment titled Eblis: Of the Unbended Knee. Tibur-Kosj read the scroll, and learned of this Demon Lord who, while may posses no abyssal layer or even domain of his own, refuses to surrender or bend to any other and yet has continued to survive within the abyss.

Shortly after his task of organizing the clergy's data on the abyssal lords the clergy asked the tribe's All-Watcher for a "better" hand to improve productivity. Hence Tibur-Kosj was declared by the All-Watcher useless, and exiled at the threat of death if he ever returned.

However, before Tibur-Kosj left he managed to sneak out the parchment of Eblis, which he now declares a "holly text". He is now attempting to reflect the philosophy of The Unbended Knee upon himself, and considers the possibility that others should here it as well.

Though not evil at heart (he is CN), Tibur-Kosj feels one needs not be to take on the message given by Eblis' example. Hence he feels justified in the widespread worship of a Demon Lord, especially one of such little renown (although he wishes he could change that).



So, as usually some amateur fluff came out of my head, but I am not to sure how to go about making it reality.

I am very inexperienced with melee classes, and do not believe I have every actually played one, except for a few sessions when a rogue of mine took a single level of fighter before I left the campaign.

Any ideas for what classes, options, feats, etc would be appropriate for this little guy?


Many pikas! :smallsmile:

[Keld Denar]

Honestly, your backstory has almost nothing to do with any actual classes. I mean, initially, I was kind of thinking...hmmmm, maybe Cloistered Cleric with Trickery and maybe Kobald domains. Cloistered cleric is a little less robust than vanillia cleric, but gets more skill points. Trickery adds most of your stealth and deception skills, along with a few really really really nice wizard spells like Invisibility. Drop a couple points in Knowledge: Planes and Knowledge: Religion to indicate his religious training and maybe pick up Knowledge Devotion, which is both powerful and flavorful. Don't worship Kurtulmak, worship either an ideal, or see if your DM will allow this domainless demon prince to grant spells.

But the more I got to thinking, you could pretty much do any build with this. Really, anything that doesn't have a huge Str focus. Swordsage would be awesome with a bit of Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, maybe a spattering of Desert Wind. You can attack with weapons, or just use your claws (assuming web enhancement kobald), it wouldn't matter hugely unless you are using Shadow Blade.

Really, what direction do you want to take this? Cause you could go just about anywhere with this...

[Pika...]

My apology.

I forgot to mention that I was thinking a melee class to represent him refusing to ever "bend" or surrender, since the concerns of this demon lord is "Refusal to surrender".

Basically, I envisioned a small kobold getting the snob beat out of him, but never falling back or yielding to another' authority. Someone who could really soak up the pain, but who hopefully was a bit more than a straight stupid barbarian. Hence I was hoping the melee experts here could have suggested a build.

I imagine he could still be useful to the party, but then again having a snappy little kobold around who will never retreat or hold back his tongue should be amusing. :smallbiggrin:

[quick_comment]

Make sure you get masochism then. Its a spell in BoVD that gives you bonuses for taking damage.

[Keld Denar]

Crusader's are mechanically very adept at soaking damage with Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike. You can shrug off the damage by picking up DR with various Stone Dragon powers or using the feat Stone Power to gain temp HP. There is even a Devoted Spirit stance called Immortal Fortitude that allows you to not die from HP damage as long as you can keep making fort saves. PHBII's feat Steadfast Determination keeps you from autofailing those fort saves on a nat 1 and boosts your Will save that keeps you from getting dominated/magically coersed into bending. Your character would essentially be "championing" this demon lord and essentially emulating his unyielding nature.

Does that sound appropriate?

[Pika...]

Crusader's are mechanically very adept at soaking damage with Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike. You can shrug off the damage by picking up DR with various Stone Dragon powers or using the feat Stone Power to gain temp HP. There is even a Devoted Spirit stance called Immortal Fortitude that allows you to not die from HP damage as long as you can keep making fort saves. PHBII's feat Steadfast Determination keeps you from autofailing those fort saves on a nat 1 and boosts your Will save that keeps you from getting dominated/magically coersed into bending. Your character would essentially be "championing" this demon lord and essentially emulating his unyielding nature.

Does that sound appropriate?

Where is crusader from?

And are the stances you refer to from the Tome of Battle alternate system book? If so I don't have it, and probably could not use it either way.

I am truly appreciating the help!

[Pika...]

Make sure you get masochism then. Its a spell in BoVD that gives you bonuses for taking damage.

Is it a clerical power?

Hmm. Seems very fitting if I go the cleric route.

[woodenbandman]

Kobold Crusader lol.

What about Kobold Crusader + Stoneblessed + Dwarf Paragon + Deepwarden + Fist of the Forest? The anti-fistbeard, yet still faithful to the fistbeard ideal.

Your damage would be kinda terrible, but you would withstand by using your manly chest muscles. Take Shake It Off like 5 times as well for DR 10/-.

Probably not a very strong build but 100% hilarious.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Crusader is in Tome of Battle. Most of what I mentioned is. Unfortunately, its pretty tough to actualize what you are interested in using existing mechanical rules OTHER than ToB.

I do like the Kobald + Stoneblessed + Deepwarden idea though, especially if you use Desert Kobalds due to the lack of Con penality.

You could probably do something with a PsyWar with a Psicrystal who manifests Share Pain with it and then uses Vampiric Weapon and a Bodyfeeder weapon to heal it and himself.

[The Glyphstone]

Deepwarden's in ToB unfortunately. Of course, we are rabid ToB fanbois and must insist that he go rob a bookstore and steal a copy of ToB to use in all his games.:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


Kobold+Stoneblessed+Dwarven Defender maybe? Dwarven Disasters get DR at level 6, which could be increased via the Greater Damage Reduction feat from CWarrior, or Roll With It from Savage Species.

[Pika...]

OK, checked out deepwarden and stoneblessed in Races of Stone.

Stoneblessed seemed interesting, since I imagine him joining a goliath tribe and attempting to convert them might be fitting (rediculiously funny/strange if he gets in a position of power, but still). However, I am not sure what the advantage is. It seems like the only thing it would give is Toughness as a bonus feat? Or am I missing how it would help?

As for deepwarden, it seems to be for dwarves only.
I have seen someone play a dwarven defender once, and that was "ouch". There was no moving that PC once he got ready. However, again I believe that is dwarves only. :/


p.s. Is a barbarian/cleric build good? Or is it not very "optimal"? (Plus the masochism spell mentioned above?)

[Keld Denar]

The point of Stoneblessed is that the 3rd level allows you to count as a Dwarf (or Gnome or Goliath) for the purposes of....everything. That means you can take levels in Deepwarden or Dwarven Disaster, because effectively, you effectively ARE a Dwarf (and a Kobold, an interesting dicotomy).

[Pika...]

Kobold+Stoneblessed+Dwarven Defender maybe? Dwarven Disasters get DR at level 6, which could be increased via the Greater Damage Reduction feat from CWarrior, or Roll With It from Savage Species.

Ohh.

Sorry, missed your edit.

So by level two (is it at level two, or after level two due to needing two ranks?) I'd enter stoneblessed, then three levels of that before I can get into dwarven defender, and then six levels of that for a total of level 11? That is pretty awesome.

And perhaps the first two levels could be cleric, or should they be straighht fighter?

Or, perhaps three levels of cleric so I can get Invisibility, then take the feat to be able to take a domain spell as a standard spell?

Or maybe barbarian fior the first two levels?

(I have no idea what I am doing here...)

[Pika...]

The point of Stoneblessed is that the 3rd level allows you to count as a Dwarf (or Gnome or Goliath) for the purposes of....everything. That means you can take levels in Deepwarden or Dwarven Disaster, because effectively, you effectively ARE a Dwarf (and a Kobold, an interesting dicotomy).

I see.

Thanks for clearing that up. I had not realized the significance of that part. Pretty newb I know. :smallredface:

And Dwarven Defends have the nickname Dwarven Disasters? Are they that good, or even "broken"?


(Now I need to read deepwarden).

[Keld Denar]

Not that good, that bad. The whole class is devoted to giving up mobility...mobility is one of the most important aspects of combat. Unless you do everything in a 5' corridor underground, its...bad.

Deepwarden, however, is pretty good. Most people cite the 2nd level ability, Stonewarden, as the reason to take it. It gives you Con to AC, instead of Dex. Really good for Dwarves, who have high Con, not as good for most little kobolds with Con penalties and Dex bonuses. Still, it makes you more SAD, reducing your needs for all 3 physical ability scores. Just don't try to make ranged attacks, or think you can act first in combat with any regularity.

The other abilities it grants are also decent. Uncanny Dodge and Slippery Mind are both very "unyielding", and the d12 HD is also nice. Even the prereqs aren't bad, since you can double dip Endurance as a prereq for Steadfast Determination (PHBII, Con to Will saves AND you never autofail Fort saves on a nat 1).

Again, not gonna be amazing, but could still be fun. Plus, all the flavor of Deepwarden fits perfectly with the stereotypical cave dwelling kobold persona.

[The Glyphstone]

Right, i got Deepwarden and Deepstone Sentinel (the ToB class that's basically Dwarven Defender minus the fail) confused. Deepwarden is quite good. The Dwarven Defender....well, everyone knows what our old buddy Ackbar has to say.

[kme]

There are also racial substitution levels for kobold fighter that you may want (Races of Dragon). It replaces your bonus feats on levels 1-4 and gives you weapon focus with spears, dodge and +2 to CON and STR. But it may not be the most optimal choice.

[Pika...]

Holly crud.

It seems his fluff is fated to be true. I just did my sixth cribdeath in a row attempting to start this character. :smalleek:


By the way, I am thinking I will try to keep this one as "core" classwise to have such a character in my backup folder.

I am thinking perhaps cleric (with the psell mentioned above from BoVD), or perhaps a barbarian/ceric mix? Or maybe just straight fighter? Any ideas?


p.s.I like the deepwarden idea, but for roleplaying and fluff it just seems a stretch to throw in the getting accepted into dwarven community and such, especially since they are unlikely to want to worship this little known demon lord.

[Pika...]

OK, finally got the scores to have a total modifier of at least +3...

14
5
13
11
10
7
16

[The Glyphstone]

Barbarian, Fighter, Barb/Fighter, or Cleric then I guess. Multiclassing Cleric with a main martial class is usually a bad idea, since Clerics are fairly passable melee combatants even without CoDZilla shenanigans, and it'll both hurt the main attraction of Cleric (the spells) and make it harder to be effective at fighting because of the increased MAD.

[Pika...]

Barbarian, Fighter, Barb/Fighter, or Cleric then I guess. Multiclassing Cleric with a main martial class is usually a bad idea, since Clerics are fairly passable melee combatants even without CoDZilla shenanigans, and it'll both hurt the main attraction of Cleric (the spells) and make it harder to be effective at fighting because of the increased MAD.

Thanks.

I have spent the last few hours reading my books and looking for any information online to figure out how to do this. I was about to decide on Cleric/Fighter, but I now I know better.

Could you please give me some suggestions on doing this with a cleric? I am not too sure what CoDZilla is, but I read a site which suggested the feat three Extended Spell, Persistent Spell, then Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). I looked them all up, but am not 100% sure of the idea. Basically burn all your turn/rebuke attempts to simply get bulls strength or the Con version for 24 hours? Is that "Cleric Zilla", and if so is that really so powerful vs. simply buffing your self normally? Youd probably burn up less spell slots.

Anyway, still looking for a way to make this guy happen. Pretty much a little fellow who kight not hit for much, but who will simply not fall down.


p.s. I am guessing the cheesy spell vigor might be good for this?

[Pika...]

Oh, and perhaps use the Draconic Rite of Passage to get Enlarge Person as a Spell-Like -Ability?

And perhaps afterwayd the feat which makes it 3/day instead of 1/day?

[Keld Denar]

Not Bull Str...look up Divine Power. Thats to broken one to persist. Its normally rounds/level, which limits the HUGE jump in power it gives with action economy. Persisting it makes it last all day. Full BAB, +6 Str, and a handful of temp HP. Yea, its that good. Also, Righteous Might. Both of these are in the PHB. Vigor is also good, as is Righteous Wrath of the Faithful in the SpC.

Yea...thats where the powah is.

And yea, you won't need Enlarge Person much anymore once you have Righteous Might, especailly if you are persisting it.

I wouldn't go that way thouh...something wicked lies that way.

[Pika...]

Not Bull Str...look up Divine Power. Thats to broken one to persist. Its normally rounds/level, which limits the HUGE jump in power it gives with action economy. Persisting it makes it last all day. Full BAB, +6 Str, and a handful of temp HP. Yea, its that good. Also, Righteous Might. Both of these are in the PHB. Vigor is also good, as is Righteous Wrath of the Faithful in the SpC.

Yea...thats where the powah is.

And yea, you won't need Enlarge Person much anymore once you have Righteous Might, especailly if you are persisting it.

I wouldn't go that way thouh...something wicked lies that way.

Thanks for the advice. I rather not do something so cheesy. Not to mention an experienced DM can probably see it coming a mile away.

So, left at step one again. :smallconfused:

[Admiral Squish]

Kobold is really much just a bad idea for this concept. I mean, yeah, it's really cool, but what you want to do is just not plausible with this race. they have a strenght and con penalty, with a bonus to dex of all things, and you want to be a damage sponge. If you want another small, similarly bullied reptilian race, you could check out MMIII for poison dusk lizardfolk. If memory serves, they get a bonus to con, and a bunch of other nifty bonuses for just +1 LA. Not quite what you're looking for but... kinda close? Sorry we can't be of more help, there's just only so much we can do without resorting to pun-pun.

[Pika...]

Kobold is really much just a bad idea for this concept. I mean, yeah, it's really cool, but what you want to do is just not plausible with this race. they have a strenght and con penalty, with a bonus to dex of all things, and you want to be a damage sponge. If you want another small, similarly bullied reptilian race, you could check out MMIII for poison dusk lizardfolk. If memory serves, they get a bonus to con, and a bunch of other nifty bonuses for just +1 LA. Not quite what you're looking for but... kinda close? Sorry we can't be of more help, there's just only so much we can do without resorting to pun-pun.

Thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate the help, and now I see you're right.

However, you've helped me realize that there is more than one way to look at a character/person who "refuses to bend". :smallsmile:

Basically, I am thinking perhaps doing a complete 360. Instead of focusing on him not yielding physically, I think I will focus on him "not breaking" on an emotional and prideful level. And it seems I'd be taking this from a semi-joke character to a very serious roleplaying one in the process?

So I am thinking, can the following be achieved?

1. A cleric character with an insane Will save.
2. Somehow making him immune to fear, or outright fearless?
3. Figure out how to make him more than a simple healer/buffer for others in combat, since it does not match his theme, but still make him useful.
4. Put ranks in Perform: (Public Speech) to recruit worship to his "divine master"?

[Admiral Squish]

And now that it's occured to me, I have ANOTHER homebrew project to work on. Some sort of unstoppable force/unbreakable wall kind of thing. Great. Throw it onto the other three or four...

[The Glyphstone]

The Courage Domain from SpC gives you a 10ft. radius aura that grants +4 bonus to saves vs. fear effects to yourself and all allies.

[jiriku]

This is not core, but a factotum might go well with your concept.

Hear me out. Eblis inspired Tibur-Kosj with his unwillingness ever to admit defeat. Further, Tibur-Kosj has little formal training in much of anything. He's working off some time spent as assistant helper's lackey and a few scraps of an old text.

The factotum could represent both his resourceful, never-say-die attitude, always finding just the right trick or ability to solve the problem at hand, even when it seems hopeless. Further, the factotum's shallow, broad knowledge is consistent with his training to date.

You could take knowledge devotion, pump some knowledge skills, and he'll solve all of his problems through intellect, lateral thinking, and bringing surprising solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems. This remains consistent with the character of a kobold runt, one who's not going to impress anyone with his physical brawn and needs to think his way out of trouble.