Balrog vs. Rancor [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

warty goblin

2009-09-12, 10:11 AM

Really?

A rancor is just a carnivorous alien beast. Fierce perhaps, but weak enough to be captured by the likes of Jabba.

A balor on the other hand....

Balrog.

And yes, the balrog wins this without a sweat. As stated, one is a large ugly alien capable of being killed by a gate. The other is a corrupted demigod as old as the universe, wreathed in shadow and flame, veteran of the greatest wars the earth has ever seen, battles that sunk continents, and also capable of surviving a fall from the Bridge of Khazad-dum unto the uttermost foundations of stone. Hell it's arguable the rancor couldn't even grab the Balrog without burning itself.

Tavar

2009-09-12, 10:11 AM

A balrog is a demi-god.
...
...
I think that pretty much answers and questions.

Yora

2009-09-12, 10:15 AM

Balrog and Balor is the same.

And using D&D measurements, I think a rancor would probably be CR 7 to 13. A CR 20 demon would completely tear it apart in seconds.

averagejoe

2009-09-12, 10:22 AM

Balrog and Balor is the same.

No; the balor is a DnD expy balrog, but it has very different powers and a somewhat different look.

Now: the rancor is a huge, powerful, carnivorous beast.

The balrog is a huge, powerful, carnivorous beast that's on fire.

Yeah.

warty goblin

2009-09-12, 10:24 AM

Balrog and Balor is the same.

Er no. I never recall reading anything in D&D about balors becoming beasts of slime if they were extinquished, besides being described as looking significantly different. One's a big old demon with muscles and everything, the other's form is described as shadow and flame.

Catch

2009-09-12, 10:25 AM

Balrog and Balor is the same.

I don't remember the Balrog throwing around Teleport, Quickened Telekinesis or Power Word Stun. Or, you know, having discernible wings.

Ravens_cry

2009-09-12, 10:33 AM

If one reads say, The Silmarillion, or even the appendices, the Balrog are basically a cross between a fallen angel and a demigod. The are corrupted Maiar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maia_(Middle-earth)), the same class of being as Gandalf and Sauron. The Rancor was a bipedal beast that had a human handler. Totally, and completely in a different league.

Prime32

2009-09-12, 10:45 AM

Avilan the Grey

2009-09-12, 11:02 AM

Balrog. Almost as tall, probably stronger, on fire, with deadly, flaming weapons. And those undefined magic powers that Tolkien loved. (Basically Gandalf's equal in the "spell" department)* A two-legged predator vs a fallen angel with an attitude...

Rancor 0, Balrog 10 (average result after 10 games :smalltongue:)

*Using "" because Tolkien doesn't really do spells.

kpenguin

2009-09-12, 11:03 AM

What could make you possibly think that this would be a good match up?

Hmmm... any way to make this at all fair?

Avilan the Grey

2009-09-12, 11:05 AM

What could make you possibly think that this would be a good match up?

Hmmm... any way to make this at all fair?

Well we could take away the Balrog's wings? :smallbiggrin:

...Well we COULD try to talk the Balrog into not using any of it's edges, and pretend to be asleep during the fight...

Dienekes

2009-09-12, 11:10 AM

What could make you possibly think that this would be a good match up?

Hmmm... any way to make this at all fair?

Balrog has just been extinguished through water?

No idea how much it weakens them, but I remember Durin's Bane fled from Gandalf when he was extinguished and only fought again when his flame was anew. And Gothmog was finally killed when he fell into a fountain, by an elf. A high ranking elf mind you, but an elf none the less.

averagejoe

2009-09-12, 11:15 AM

What could make you possibly think that this would be a good match up?

Hmmm... any way to make this at all fair?

Set the rancor on fire!

warty goblin

2009-09-12, 11:15 AM

Balrog has just been extinguished through water?

No idea how much it weakens them, but I remember Durin's Bane fled from Gandalf when he was extinguished and only fought again when his flame was anew. And Gothmog was finally killed when he fell into a fountain, by an elf. A high ranking elf mind you, but an elf none the less.

That was what's his face the Guard of the Fountain in Gondolin. This means that he was 'just an elf' in the same way the F-22 is 'just a plane,' or a 50 megaton bomb is 'just an explosive.' These are, remember, Noldor elves, who make the modern knockoffs we see in more recent fantasy look honestly pathetic. Hell, they do things that the gods can't do, and not just crappy psychobabble like feeling more intensely or something. Nope, they can just do some stuff better.

Ravens_cry

2009-09-12, 11:42 AM

I think you meant sarlacc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarlacc). EDIT: No, wait. I thought rancors were those things on Hoth the Rebels used as mounts. Never mind.

Also...Balor was a cyclops from Celtic mythology who could kill with a glance.
That's probably where they got the new name, but in the very,very, first edition, they were called Balrogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balor_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)). Until Tolkiens estate got P.O. and lawsuited (a spoooky lawsuit) them away, along with Hobbits and Ents, that is.

Mystic Muse

2009-09-12, 11:49 AM

This is a horrible matchup.

Balrog wins easy regardless of the arena and the Rancor runs away in fear of the gigantic flaming shadow demon that wants to eat its face and then proceeds to kill everybody in Jabba's palace. I don't think even Luke has much chance here. Solo, Chew, Lando and Leia are DEFINITELY screwed. I think a thermal detonator would just make it stronger.

the Rancor is a kitty cat compared to the balrog.

KnightDisciple

2009-09-12, 11:54 AM

That was what's his face the Guard of the Fountain in Gondolin. This means that he was 'just an elf' in the same way the F-22 is 'just a plane,' or a 50 megaton bomb is 'just an explosive.' These are, remember, Noldor elves, who make the modern knockoffs we see in more recent fantasy look honestly pathetic. Hell, they do things that the gods can't do, and not just crappy psychobabble like feeling more intensely or something. Nope, they can just do some stuff better.

Didn't he fall into a fountain, after taking grievous wounds, from way up high? Like hundreds, or even thousands, of feet off a cliff? That's a bad day for most anyone.

Also, Gothmog was basically equal to Sauron (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gothmog).

Having read that, it was more of a "big,long fight with Ecthelion, followed by getting a horned helmet rammed in his chest, and pushed into a river off a cliff".

Edit: Let's put it another way.

This is putting a Lieutenant of Hell up against an overgrown Komodo Dragon. It's in no way fair.:smalltongue:

Mystic Muse

2009-09-12, 11:57 AM

\
This is putting a Lieutenant of Hell up against an overgrown Komodo Dragon. It's in no way fair.:smalltongue:

no. An overgrown Komodo dragon would be cool.:smalltongue: the Rancor is just stupid.

warty goblin

2009-09-12, 12:06 PM

Didn't he fall into a fountain, after taking grievous wounds, from way up high? Like hundreds, or even thousands, of feet off a cliff? That's a bad day for most anyone.

Also, Gothmog was basically equal to Sauron (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gothmog).

Having read that, it was more of a "big,long fight with Ecthelion, followed by getting a horned helmet rammed in his chest, and pushed into a river off a cliff".

Edit: Let's put it another way.

This is putting a Lieutenant of Hell up against an overgrown Komodo Dragon. It's in no way fair.:smalltongue:

Something like that. I'd only read the Sillmarillion version which simply says that Ecthalion and Gothmog killed each other in single combat. Given that this is the Balrog who offed Feanor, that says good things about Fountainboy.

Mystic Muse

2009-09-12, 12:10 PM

Something like that. I'd only read the Sillmarillion version which simply says that Ecthalion and Gothmog killed each other in single combat. Given that this is the Balrog who offed Feanor, that says good things about Fountainboy.

wouldn't matter about the book just look at the movie version of it. there's no way the rancor could beat that thing.

all you need to know is A. it's a fallen DEMIGOD and B. It has a flame sword.. a flame whip and a flame body.

here's what happened. They found the dead body of a demigod. Then they put it on fire. then they put the fire on fire. Then it turned into LIVING fire and now it kills other Demigods for fun. the rancor is it's breakfast.

Ravens_cry

2009-09-12, 12:12 PM

...Well we COULD try to talk the Balrog into not using any of it's edges, and pretend to be asleep during the fight...
. . .And we could make the Rancor out of antimatter. . .:smallamused:

Mystic Muse

2009-09-12, 12:14 PM

we could make the Rancor Sauroncombined with saruman combined with Morgoth combined with Gandalf the white combined with the witch king combined with Gothmog in disguise. I don't think the Balrog would have any chance then.well, the OTHER Balrog.:smallamused:

Vizzerdrix

2009-09-12, 12:15 PM

Rancor supposedly are intelligent. Not build a spaceship intelligent, but at least tool using (not that they need tools for much). I do believe this opens them up to force use.

:smallsigh:

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go do horrible things to my brain to make sure I remove all the star Wars crap my room mate put in it. Seems the first scrubbing wasn't through enough the first time.

warty goblin

2009-09-12, 12:21 PM

wouldn't matter about the book just look at the movie version of it. there's no way the rancor could beat that thing.

To be fair, the movie version is far more fiery than the books ever describe the Balrog as being.

all you need to know is A. it's a fallen DEMIGOD and B. It has a flame sword.. a flame whip and a flame body.
A flame whip whose lashes are so agonizing they cause one of the two most powerful and evil beings in the cosmos to flee no less.

here's what happened. They found the dead body of a demigod. Then they put it on fire. then they put the fire on fire. Then it turned into LIVING fire and now it kills other Demigods for fun. the rancor is it's breakfast.
Not really. The Balrogs were fire Maiar (IIRC) who sided with Melkor in his first war against the Valar. Unlike their master however they never seem to have put their power into anything but being intensely dangerous, and thus, unlike Melkor/Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman, all of which became progressively weaker as they extended their power into the creation of more potent minions, they simply remained very, very powerful

Mystic Muse

2009-09-12, 12:22 PM

Not really. The Balrogs were fire Maiar (IIRC) who sided with Melkor in his first war against the Valar. Unlike their master however they never seem to have put their power into anything but being intensely dangerous, and thus, unlike Melkor/Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman, all of which became progressively weaker as they extended their power into the creation of more potent minions, they simply remained very, very powerful

I'm mostly aware of this. I was just kidding about the fire thing.

Dervag

2009-09-12, 12:51 PM

What could make you possibly think that this would be a good match up?

Hmmm... any way to make this at all fair?Firstly, they look like they'd be a plausible matchup if you go with the movie appearance of the Balrog. They're both huge, fierce, and approximately the same size.

Secondly, rancors in Star Wars are among the toughest animals in fiction, to the point where the only way they can be hunted is with futuristic energy weapons and demolition charges. If you don't realize just how much power the Balrog has that isn't immediately visible (a common problem when dealing with Tolkein) it's natural to assume that they are roughly comparable in power.

warty goblin

2009-09-12, 12:55 PM

Secondly, rancors in Star Wars are among the toughest animals in fiction, to the point where the only way they can be hunted is with futuristic energy weapons and demolition charges. If you don't realize just how much power the Balrog has that isn't immediately visible (a common problem when dealing with Tolkein) it's natural to assume that they are roughly comparable in power.

Or doors, that seems to work as well.

Of course that was a fast moving point with a lot of mass behind it. But if that can penetrate a rancor's skull, a lot of other things probably could as well. I'm eyeing the 20mm dummy cannon shells on my desk as I write this...

Muz

2009-09-12, 12:57 PM

The question is not "Who would win in a battle between a balrog and a rancor?" The question is "Who would win in a battle between a balrog and an iron gate."

The gate beat the rancor, so if you can beat the gate... :smallwink:

...Unless you meant this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balrog_(Street_Fighter)), in which case...iron gate.

chiasaur11

2009-09-12, 01:05 PM

Well we could take away the Balrog's wings? :smallbiggrin:

...Well we COULD try to talk the Balrog into not using any of it's edges, and pretend to be asleep during the fight...

Force the Balrog to wear his fuzzy slippers?

warty goblin

2009-09-12, 01:20 PM

Force the Balrog to wear his fuzzy slippers?

Fuzzy slippers of Burning. With pink rabbits on them. And the Hello Kitty bathrobe.

Berserk Monk

2009-09-12, 01:27 PM

A balrog is a magical entity created by the dark lord Morgoth while a rancor is just a large beast. Gotta go with the balrog.

Renegade Paladin

2009-09-12, 01:56 PM

Why is this even a question? :smallconfused:

I don't remember the Balrog throwing around Teleport, Quickened Telekinesis or Power Word Stun. Or, you know, having discernible wings.
In the Silmarillion they are described as flying on wings of fire.

Muz

2009-09-12, 02:36 PM

Why is this even a question? :smallconfused:

In the Silmarillion they are described as flying on wings of fire.

It begins... :smallbiggrin: *dives for cover*

Athaniar

2009-09-12, 03:01 PM

["OldEnglish"]Thou knowesth nay what thou hast unleashed...[/"OldEnglish"]

Renegade Paladin

2009-09-12, 03:02 PM

It begins... :smallbiggrin:
What begins? It says it black and white; if you're expecting a long, drawn-out discussion over whether Tolkien decided to randomly lie I'm going to have to disappoint, because that would be ludicrous.

JonestheSpy

2009-09-12, 03:26 PM

Firstly, they look like they'd be a plausible matchup if you go with the movie appearance of the Balrog. They're both huge, fierce, and approximately the same size.

I think there needs to be a new internet law - anyone who discusses Tolkien having only seen the Peter Jackson movies gets an instant boot to the head.

KnightDisciple

2009-09-12, 03:51 PM

I think there needs to be a new internet law - anyone who discusses Tolkien having only seen the Peter Jackson movies gets an instant boot to the head.

I approve of this motion. Any objections?

averagejoe

2009-09-12, 03:52 PM

In the Silmarillion they are described as flying on wings of fire.

I'm actually curious about this; I've looked, but don't remember finding anything. Can you cite this?

Erts

2009-09-12, 04:47 PM

I approve of this motion. Any objections?

I don't think so.

On the Balrog with wings thing...

It is one of the most potent and inflamatory discusions on the internet. The mere mension on it on a Tolkien forum can drive perfectly normal people into a angry mob.

Kris Strife

2009-09-12, 05:33 PM

It is one of the most potent and inflamatory discusions on the internet. The mere mension on it on a Tolkien forum can drive perfectly normal people into a angry mob.

Hm... I believe I can use this for my own amusement and/or benefit somehow... :smallamused:

tribble

2009-09-12, 06:10 PM

It begins... :smallbiggrin: *dives for cover*

Me too.:smalleek::smallbiggrin:

WalkingTarget

2009-09-12, 06:19 PM

I'm actually curious about this; I've looked, but don't remember finding anything. Can you cite this?

I'm unaware of any specific mention of them flying as well.

Here's a portion of another post I made in a thread the other day on the subject.

Here's the deal. There are two lines from the book that cause all of the controversy.

Page 348 of my single-volume hardback, just before Gandalf's "You cannot pass" speech in The Bridge of Khazad-dûm chapter:

"[The Balrog] halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."

Note the "like" in there, it's the source of much contention. Then, a few paragraphs later (page 349 in my copy)

"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."

That's all you get that refer to wings. Good luck convincing people with firm opinions on the matter that they're wrong, though. Now here's the first section where the Balrog appears which I find much more interesting, farther up page 348:

"What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater: and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs."

What my imagination supplies is a large, dark humanoid. It has long hair that can ignite without harming it and it has wings of shadow (and I mean that literally, it can wrap them around itself and can dim nearby light; in my mind the wings are not physical in the least, but they are there). I have yet to see any artist's depiction of a balrog that matches the picture in my head and I'm not enough of an artist to capture the idea myself.

Another point on this topic that I think is significant is that if Balrogs could fly it would have been a great gaping hole in the defense of Gondolin which depended on remaining hidden and a flying enemy could have spotted them eventually. The flying dragons didn't show up until the War of Wrath, well after the city fell (Silmarillion, page 252 of my hardback: "...out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen...")

I agree that the premise of this thread is no contest. Rancor vs troll might be an interesting fight, Rancor vs. Balrog would be a curb stomping.

Dienekes

2009-09-12, 06:23 PM

The only mention of them flying that I can remember off the top of my head is them riding on dragons.

Which, probably wouldn't be necessary if they had functioning wings.

Berserk Monk

2009-09-12, 06:29 PM

Why is this even a question? :smallconfused:

In the Silmarillion they are described as flying on wings of fire.

Technically, that was written by Christopher Tolkien using notes from his father.

Muz

2009-09-12, 06:36 PM

At the risk of dumping napalm on a campfire, here's a link that might be relevant (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/b/balrogs.html).

Elfin

2009-09-12, 06:41 PM

The only mention of them flying that I can remember off the top of my head is them riding on dragons.

Which, probably wouldn't be necessary if they had functioning wings.

Source? I don't recall balrogs riding atop dragons...
EDIT: Ah, the early drafts. Gotta finish the History and Unfinished Tales sometime.

Dienekes

2009-09-12, 06:43 PM

Source? I don't recall balrogs riding atop dragons.

Sil, off top of my head. I don't have it in front of me so I'm probably wrong.

WalkingTarget

2009-09-12, 06:46 PM

Source? I don't recall balrogs riding atop dragons.

Early version of the Fall of Gondolin. An army of Balrogs rode in on dragons (this is before flying dragons anyway). This is also in the point of the story's evolution where mighty heroes could take out several of them at a time (I think Tuor takes out 3 or 5 himself). Later versions have fewer total Balrogs but they're considerably tougher.

Fan

2009-09-12, 07:28 PM

Early version of the Fall of Gondolin. An army of Balrogs rode in on dragons (this is before flying dragons anyway). This is also in the point of the story's evolution where mighty heroes could take out several of them at a time (I think Tuor takes out 3 or 5 himself). Later versions have fewer total Balrogs but they're considerably tougher.

That, or they are in fact the same, and First Age heroes are just that much better.

Hard to say.:smalltongue:

Avilan the Grey

2009-09-12, 07:40 PM

I'm unaware of any specific mention of them flying as well.

They were never mentioned flying in LOTR, but in the more important works about Middle Earth.

...Anyway; this is one thing I think the movies got exactly right. The wings are litterary made of shadow and smoke, although the bones supporting them are solid.
You can see the difference in the flashback from the mountain top when the Balrog is weakened, and you can see the shadow that is the wings falter and swirl, making it clear they would not support actual flight, but they are there.

WalkingTarget

2009-09-12, 07:42 PM

That, or they are in fact the same, and First Age heroes are just that much better.

Hard to say.:smalltongue:

The wikipedia page for them is fairly well sourced and is easier to quote than for me to write something up myself.

Tolkien's conception of Balrogs changed over time. In all his early writing, they are very numerous. There is a host of them stated to number a thousand in Quenta Silmarillion while at the storming of Gondolin, Balrogs in the hundreds ride on the backs of the Dragons. They are roughly of twice human size, and are occasionally killed in battle by Elves and, at the Fall of Gondolin, five are slain by Tuor. They were always fierce demons, associated with fire, armed with fiery whips of many thongs and claws like steel, and Morgoth delighted to use them to torture his captives. They were very loyal to Morgoth, and once came out of hiding to save him from capture.

But in the published version of the The Lord of the Rings, Balrogs have become altogether more sinister, powerful and larger. Christopher Tolkien notes the difference, saying that in earlier versions they were "less terrible and certainly more destructible". He quotes a very late margin note that was not incorporated into the text saying "at most seven" ever existed; though in the Annals of Aman, written as late as 1958, after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, Melkor still commands "a host of Balrogs". In later writings they have ceased to be creatures, but are instead Maiar, lesser Ainur like Gandalf or Sauron, spirits of fire whom Melkor had corrupted before the creation of the World. It requires power on the order of Gandalf's to destroy them; and as Maiar, only their physical forms could be destroyed.

The "less terrible and certainly more destructible" and "at most seven" quotes in particular are of note.

That's not to say that you're not right in that the First Age heroes were wicked awesome. They were. :smallsmile:

They were never mentioned flying in LOTR, but in the more important works about Middle Earth.

Yeah, and I'm saying that you're going to need to find a passage that actually says so since I'm not aware of the Silmarillion saying they did either, nor did it come up in Tolkien's published letters. I've only read through the Unfinshed Tales once and don't own the book but I don't remember it being in there either. I haven't read the History books, so there might be something in there, but I'd think that if any of the published material talked about them flying then there'd be fewer arguments about their wings and it'd probably be information available on the internet by now.

Zevox

2009-09-12, 08:08 PM

Yeah, as others have said, not even a contest here. You're pitting what is essentially just a large, powerful carnivorous animal against a lesser deity whose body is literally composed of flame and shadow and who was given some extra power beyond what it originally had by the most powerful deity short of the Overgod of its setting. You'd have to handicap the Balrog horribly to even give the Rancor a ghost of a chance.

A better comparison out of Tolkien would be a Rancor vs an Ent or Troll. Or maybe a young, wingless Dragon. But definitely not a Balrog.

Yeah, and I'm saying that you're going to need to find a passage that actually says so since I'm not aware of the Silmarillion saying they did either, nor did it come up in Tolkien's published letters. I've only read through the Unfinshed Tales once and don't own the book but I don't remember it being in there either. I haven't read the History books, so there might be something in there, but I'd think that if any of the published material talked about them flying then there'd be fewer arguments about their wings and it'd probably be information available on the internet by now.
I've read the History books, and do not recall any mention of Balrogs flying in them, either. And even if there were, those are mostly composed of old drafts which are not canon for the final version of Tolkien's mythos.

Zevox

Makensha

2009-09-12, 08:25 PM

Avilan the Grey

2009-09-12, 08:33 PM

I've read the History books, and do not recall any mention of Balrogs flying in them, either. And even if there were, those are mostly composed of old drafts which are not canon for the final version of Tolkien's mythos.

Zevox

There is a passage where Gothmog (the first) flies. Anyone better than me on Google-fu?

warty goblin

2009-09-12, 09:15 PM

I'm gonna say after reading what the various Tolkien nerds here have to say, that 50-100 Rancors "Popped" at point blank range would give a good fight, assuming that Balrog's wings either do not exist, or are not working at the moment for some bizzare reason.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Remember Balrogs were essentially* a match for the greatest heroes in the history of Middle Earth. These were very powerful people. The account that springs most readily to mind is Hurin** killing trolls without significant difficulty until their blood melted the ax out of his hand. It bears note that his hand was essentially fine. Unless I'm missing something, a Balrog wouldn't suffer from this problem against rancors since, last I checked, rancors don't have steel disolving plasma

*Actually pretty much exactly a match, since I can't find any account, particularly of the later, more powerful and generally terrifying balrogs, whose killers themselves did not die in the deed.

** Tragically there was never a throwdown between Hurin and a Balrog, but he was certainly in the upper echelon of Elder Days Badasses. Behind his son certainly (who can kill literally anything it appears) and Fingolfin, but still up there.

Cracklord

2009-09-12, 09:33 PM

I think there needs to be a new internet law - anyone who discusses Tolkien having only seen the Peter Jackson movies gets an instant boot to the head.

As long as I get to kick them.
I have just the boot for the job.'

I have read most of Tolkiens conceptual notes. I own copies of Morgoth's Ring, The Return of Shadow, the lot. And I have never found a concrete mention of Balrogs flying. They may be able to fly, but Tolkien never showed them doing so.

And if a Rancor ever did confront a Balrog, it would do the honorable thing and stick it's head beneath the gate.

Zevox

2009-09-12, 09:56 PM

*Actually pretty much exactly a match, since I can't find any account, particularly of the later, more powerful and generally terrifying balrogs, whose killers themselves did not die in the deed.
That's because there aren't any. After the transition to them being the more powerful version, we have exactly 3 stories of a specific Balrog being killed. First, Gothmog's death at the hands of Ecthelion during the Fall of Gondolin (ironic that the Lord of the Balrogs, the strongest of them all, should be the first to go, now that I think of it). Second, the Balrog that attacked a group of Elven refugees trying to escape from Gondolin, and was killed in battle with Glorfindel when they both fell off the side of the mountain they were fighting on (which would pretty strongly imply that Balrogs couldn't fly, at least in the final version, now that I think of it). And finally, Durin's Bane, the one slain by Gandalf after a lengthy off-screen battle in LotR. In all three cases, the Balrog-slayer died in the process.

All other Balrog deaths happened during the War of Wrath, and were never written down as specific battles, so we don't know who killed them or if the killer survived.

Zevox

averagejoe

2009-09-13, 12:15 AM

Balrogs riding dragons...

That is bad ass.

shadowxknight

2009-09-13, 04:03 AM

Ya, I think this battle would go to the Balrog easily.

I mean heck, the Balrog is on fire; the rancor would just hurt itself if it tries to bite or claw.

Matar

2009-09-13, 04:14 AM

Balrog would win this easy >_>.

/Whateveryoneelsewassaying

I think there is one breed that may be able to take one. Bred by some Sith lord IIRC. Hell if I remember though.

Myrmex

2009-09-13, 04:42 AM

Or doors, that seems to work as well.

Of course that was a fast moving point with a lot of mass behind it. But if that can penetrate a rancor's skull, a lot of other things probably could as well. I'm eyeing the 20mm dummy cannon shells on my desk as I write this...

Presumably the gate has enough force to keep a rancor from opening it, so it's not as lolpwn as it looks.

Ossian

2009-09-13, 04:59 AM

Next to all that has been said, one can guess that Balrogs are strong enough to the authority of Sauron. Just a second guess, but in his quest for power, I am pretty sure that Sauron was aware of a Balrog (maybe a particularly strong one, who knows) in Moria. A definite asset, which he did or could not use.

Maybe he was happy with the beast guarding the passage through Moria, but my feeling is that th Balrog took the place as his personal fief and could not care less of what Sauron (the terror of Middle Earth) wanted.

The rancor, on the on the hand, was befriended and tamed by that guy with the leather hoodie ;)

M.

Prime32

2009-09-13, 06:27 AM

There is a passage where Gothmog (the first) flies. Anyone better than me on Google-fu?
Gandalf, after knocking Balrog into pit: "Fly, you fools!"

I don't recall any of the Fellowship having wings.

Jahkaivah

2009-09-13, 07:38 AM

Gandalf, after knocking Balrog into pit: "Fly, you fools!"

I don't recall any of the Fellowship having wings.

Though they did have giant birds, which probably would have made things easier for them. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU&fmt=18)

Dervag

2009-09-13, 10:30 AM

I approve of this motion. Any objections?Yes.

I think there needs to be a new internet law - anyone who discusses Tolkien having only seen the Peter Jackson movies gets an instant boot to the head.There's a problem with that. If you read the books but, for some incomprehensible reason [rolls eyes] only read them once, or even twice, you might easily not come away with a clear mental picture of the balrog. It's dangerous, yes, and shadow and flame are definitely involved, but what does it look like? Is it big? Human-sized? Does it have wings, horns, or other features we would consider demonic? Who knows? I'm not sure those details are even in the scene, and I know I've read that scene at least three times.

In which case the image in the Peter Jackson movie is likely to dominate your picture of the balrog, because it's vivid and, let us all be honest, scary-looking. Balrogs are tough enough that only heroes and gods can kill them; in a sense they should look like that.

So you would not just have to ban people who'd only seen the movies. You'd have to ban fans who were insufficiently dedicated, who had only read the books once or twice. You'd probably end up having to ban everyone who hasn't bothered to read the Silmarillion and the other associated material. And I think that's extreme.
______

Early version of the Fall of Gondolin. An army of Balrogs rode in on dragons (this is before flying dragons anyway). This is also in the point of the story's evolution where mighty heroes could take out several of them at a time (I think Tuor takes out 3 or 5 himself). Later versions have fewer total Balrogs but they're considerably tougher.Probably because those First Age badasses killed all the weak ones.

Jahkaivah

2009-09-13, 11:03 AM

There's a problem with that. If you read the books but, for some incomprehensible reason [rolls eyes] only read them once, or even twice, you might easily not come away with a clear mental picture of the balrog. It's dangerous, yes, and shadow and flame are definitely involved, but what does it look like? Is it big? Human-sized? Does it have wings, horns, or other features we would consider demonic? Who knows? I'm not sure those details are even in the scene, and I know I've read that scene at least three times..

Good point, for example the animated version had the most laughable Balrog ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spk7MpSpkJ0&fmt=18)

warty goblin

2009-09-13, 11:25 AM

Good point, for example the animated version had the most laughable Balrog ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spk7MpSpkJ0&fmt=18)

Although it was definitely unambigious on the wing question.

Ravens_cry

2009-09-13, 12:35 PM

laughable Balrog ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spk7MpSpkJ0&fmt=18)
Someone should do an anime lord of the rings. Yes, I know anime strictly just means animation. But Japanese animation seems to understand knows that animation can do anything, but it doesn't have to be silly while doing so. That seems to be Ralph Bakshi biggest problem in his Lord of the Rings. Not the silly part, the can-do-anything part.
His Lord of the Rings is mostly traced actors, rotoscoped, so when there is a great opportunity to integrate the fantastic and the realistic, it falls flatter then a pancake on a neutron star, because his fantastic just doesn't measure up. I loved Strider, though that's as much a credit to the voice actor as anyone.

Prime32

2009-09-13, 12:40 PM

Ravens_cry

2009-09-13, 12:45 PM

Someone wrote a parody where Frodo defeated the Balrog with "Light of Galadriel, combine with One Ring! FRODO HYPER HOLY LIGHT PUNCH!"

It was awesome. :smallbiggrin:
Yes, but that's anime as genre, with all it's clichés, not anime as medium.

warty goblin

2009-09-13, 12:49 PM

Someone should do an anime lord of the rings. Yes, I know anime strictly just means animation. But Japanese animation seems to understand knows that animation can do anything, but it doesn't have to be silly while doing so. That seems to be Don Bluths biggest problem in his Lord of the Rings. Not the silly part, the can-do-anything part.
His Lord of the Rings is mostly traced actors, rotoscoped, so when there is a great opportunity to integrate the fantastic and the realistic, it falls flatter then a pancake on a neutron star, because his fantastic just doesn't measure up. I loved Strider, though that's as much a credit to the voice actor as anyone.

That completely misses the point of LOTR though. The story isn't fantasy=superpowered awesome. The point of the story, at least to me, is that that stuff doesn't work. The only way to really save the world is to pay for it, the long, hard way you never really come back from.

Would it have been cool if Gandalf had hulked out and destroyed the Balrog in a pillar of emerald flames? Possibly. It also would have destroyed the entire point of the encounter- that evil can only be destroyed through sacrifice, that there's always a cost to doing good.

The beauty of LOTR, to me, is that it doesn't wimp out on the sacrifice thing either. Gandalf does come back, but he's not the same, and he still suffered and (more or less) died. Frodo never really comes back from Mordor. His sacrifice is redeemed by the passage to the Undying Lands, but it isn't negated or diminished by doing so.

Going for awesome fantasy would totally ruin that for me.

kpenguin

2009-09-13, 12:50 PM

Yes, but that's anime as genre, with all it's clichés, not anime as medium.

I'd think that would be shōnen as a genre, or do such things happen often in anime beyond stereotypical shōnen?

Ravens_cry

2009-09-13, 01:22 PM

That completely misses the point of LOTR though. The story isn't fantasy=superpowered awesome. The point of the story, at least to me, is that that stuff doesn't work. The only way to really save the world is to pay for it, the long, hard way you never really come back from.

Would it have been cool if Gandalf had hulked out and destroyed the Balrog in a pillar of emerald flames? Possibly. It also would have destroyed the entire point of the encounter- that evil can only be destroyed through sacrifice, that there's always a cost to doing good.

The beauty of LOTR, to me, is that it doesn't wimp out on the sacrifice thing either. Gandalf does come back, but he's not the same, and he still suffered and (more or less) died. Frodo never really comes back from Mordor. His sacrifice is redeemed by the passage to the Undying Lands, but it isn't negated or diminished by doing so.

Going for awesome fantasy would totally ruin that for me.
Again, I don't mean cliche, super special awesome anime, I mean as an integration, where the Balrog looks just as much a part of the world as Gandalf and Frodo are. Anime can do drama, compelling personal drama, just as well as a book or feature film, while allowing an integration of the fantastic without it feeling jarring, either when you watch it, or a few years later when the CGI improves.
Look at Spirited Away, many strange and down right weird creatures, yet they all felt in the universe, rather then a piece of greenscreen some actors were trying to emote to, and often failing. Or Porco Rosso. Imagine trying to make a live action movie with a man with pigs head as the lead using latex.
Books can do this integration, because it is all in your imagination and animation can do this because it is all fake. But much western animation is either stuck in the kiddie closet, or 'mature' humour,. Because of a variety of factors, Japan knows that animation can tell a story that can reach any audience and any specific audience. Anime isn't just giant sword's giant robots and magic girls. It's animation.
But it can tell stories, create worlds, and that's why I want to see a Lord of the Rings done that way.

Mx.Silver

2009-09-13, 02:38 PM

Ravens_cry

2009-09-13, 02:53 PM

I think you mean Ralph Bakshi. To my knowledge, Bluth never did anything relating to LOTR.
In the immortal words of Homer, Doh!:smalleek:

warty goblin

2009-09-13, 02:55 PM

Again, I don't mean cliche, super special awesome anime, I mean as an integration, where the Balrog looks just as much a part of the world as Gandalf and Frodo are. Anime can do drama, compelling personal drama, just as well as a book or feature film, while allowing an integration of the fantastic without it feeling jarring, either when you watch it, or a few years later when the CGI improves.
Look at Spirited Away, many strange and down right weird creatures, yet they all felt in the universe, rather then a piece of greenscreen some actors were trying to emote to, and often failing. Or Porco Rosso. Imagine trying to make a live action movie with a man with pigs head as the lead using latex.
Books can do this integration, because it is all in your imagination and animation can do this because it is all fake. But much western animation is either stuck in the kiddie closet, or 'mature' humour,. Because of a variety of factors, Japan knows that animation can tell a story that can reach any audience and any specific audience. Anime isn't just giant sword's giant robots and magic girls. It's animation.
But it can tell stories, create worlds, and that's why I want to see a Lord of the Rings done that way.

That is a fair point. I misunderstood your meaning based on your emphasis on anime doing the fantastic well. There isn't that much fantastic in LOTR, and to me, the more that is emphasized, the worse the end result is likely to be. Keeping it minimized keeps the magic, well, magical, and gives it this wonderful sense of history and depth.

Squidmaster

2009-09-13, 03:04 PM

Good point, for example the animated version had the most laughable Balrog ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spk7MpSpkJ0&fmt=18)

is that... a lion with moth wings?

Ravens_cry

2009-09-13, 03:12 PM

That is a fair point. I misunderstood your meaning based on your emphasis on anime doing the fantastic well. There isn't that much fantastic in LOTR, and to me, the more that is emphasized, the worse the end result is likely to be. Keeping it minimized keeps the magic, well, magical, and gives it this wonderful sense of history and depth.
Oh yes, I agree with that. It's not a magic sword in every sheath, and a world destroying artefact in every pocket, it's a world where magic is magical. In that sense, I am reminded of Princess Mononoke.
Heh, a discussion on the internet that didn't devolve into insults and name calling, cookies all round!

warty goblin

2009-09-13, 03:20 PM

Oh yes, I agree with that. It's not a magic sword in every sheath, and a world destroying artefact in every pocket, it's a world where magic is magical. In that sense, I am reminded of Princess Mononoke.
Heh, a discussion on the internet that didn't devolve into insults and name calling, cookies all round!

It has been known to happen every now and again. And just so long as Frodo in no way has spiky hair. It's supposed to be curly, and that is all.

Prime32

2009-09-13, 03:30 PM

It has been known to happen every now and again. And just so long as Frodo in no way has spiky hair. It's supposed to be curly, and that is all.Spiky hair is for impulsive guys. The meek get flat hair. He will have the biggest eyes of any male character though.

warty goblin

2009-09-13, 03:45 PM

Spiky hair is for impulsive guys. The meek get flat hair. He will have the biggest eyes of any male character though.

But Frodo isn't meek. Curls, I tell you, curls.

As for eyes, Frodo's gotta have smallish ones, because he's freaking hardcore. Remember, this is the guy who threatens to make Gollum throw himself into a volcano. That ain't cute and adorable there, that's doing what it takes to get the hard job done.

sethdarkwater

2009-09-13, 04:14 PM

AH heck just to run with the little guy... The rancor would would win. Why..... good question? Hey look its elvis!

sethdarkwater

2009-09-13, 04:20 PM

Again, I don't mean cliche, super special awesome anime, I mean as an integration, where the Balrog looks just as much a part of the world as Gandalf and Frodo are. Anime can do drama, compelling personal drama, just as well as a book or feature film, while allowing an integration of the fantastic without it feeling jarring, either when you watch it, or a few years later when the CGI improves.
Look at Spirited Away, many strange and down right weird creatures, yet they all felt in the universe, rather then a piece of greenscreen some actors were trying to emote to, and often failing. Or Porco Rosso. Imagine trying to make a live action movie with a man with pigs head as the lead using latex.
Books can do this integration, because it is all in your imagination and animation can do this because it is all fake. But much western animation is either stuck in the kiddie closet, or 'mature' humour,. Because of a variety of factors, Japan knows that animation can tell a story that can reach any audience and any specific audience. Anime isn't just giant sword's giant robots and magic girls. It's animation.
But it can tell stories, create worlds, and that's why I want to see a Lord of the Rings done that way.

I'd have to say at first I wouldn't think that I would agree that anime could be just as compellingly dramatic as live action, but then I remembered Grave of Fireflies. Its one of Roger Eberts top ten war movies. And is a pinnacle in film for the drama and historical richness. I think it would be cool to one day see a MODERN anime style Lord of the Rings.

Prime32

2009-09-13, 04:24 PM

But Frodo isn't meek. Curls, I tell you, curls.

As for eyes, Frodo's gotta have smallish ones, because he's freaking hardcore. Remember, this is the guy who threatens to make Gollum throw himself into a volcano. That ain't cute and adorable there, that's doing what it takes to get the hard job done.His eyes get narrower as the story goes on. That's what they did in Death Note.

Elfin

2009-09-13, 04:48 PM

Good point, for example the animated version had the most laughable Balrog ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spk7MpSpkJ0&fmt=18)

Gah! :smalleek:
*Cringes*

What in the name of Manwe was Bakshi thinking?
I mean, making Durin's Bane a lion with hooves and butterfly wings who glides through the air? Boromir as a Viking? A crabby Gandalf? Aragorn the Native American? A menacing horde of half-a-dozen rotoscoped orcs? Hobbits with puffy hair?

:smallsigh:

warty goblin

2009-09-13, 05:02 PM

Gah! :smalleek:
*Cringes*

What in the name of Manwe was Bakshi thinking?
A crabby Gandalf?

:smallsigh:

That one at least he got fairly right. Gandalf's a nice guy, but a bit of a pain in the rear on occasion. As I recall, when Bilbo didn't open the door fast enough, he threatened to blow it clean out the other side of the Hill.

Ravens_cry

2009-09-13, 05:47 PM

Gah! :smalleek:
*Cringes*

What in the name of Manwe was Bakshi thinking?
Aragorn the Native American?:
*raises hand* I rather liked Aragorn. His voice was rough, but regal. And he spent his life as a ranger, you're going to get quite a tan that way. Just put on some pants, man.

Elfin

2009-09-13, 07:13 PM

That one at least he got fairly right. Gandalf's a nice guy, but a bit of a pain in the rear on occasion. As I recall, when Bilbo didn't open the door fast enough, he threatened to blow it clean out the other side of the Hill.

Gandalf definitely had some crabbiness in him, but no matter what he always seemed so kind at heart. I find that Bakshi's Gandalf has the outer grouchiness without the underlay of kindness.

As for Aragorn- I agree, his voice acting was without a doubt the best in the movie.

Renegade Paladin

2009-09-13, 10:06 PM

(ironic that the Lord of the Balrogs, the strongest of them all, should be the first to go, now that I think of it)
Yeah, but that's a running theme in Tolkien's work; the Witch King was the first of the Nazgul to die as well.

Ravens_cry

2009-09-13, 10:09 PM

Yeah, but that's a running theme in Tolkien's work; the Witch King was the first of the Nazgul to die as well.
The same could be said of Gandalf, who was definitely the strongest of the Fellowship, being a visiting angel and all.

Renegade Paladin

2009-09-13, 10:15 PM

Good point, for example the animated version had the most laughable Balrog ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spk7MpSpkJ0&fmt=18)
Why is Aragorn not wearing any pants? :smallconfused:

Zevox

2009-09-13, 10:41 PM

Yeah, but that's a running theme in Tolkien's work; the Witch King was the first of the Nazgul to die as well.
Technically, he was the only one of the Nazgul to die. Or at least, to be killed. The others would have just faded away after the One Ring was destroyed, since their rings lost their power.

The same could be said of Gandalf, who was definitely the strongest of the Fellowship, being a visiting angel and all.
Yeah, but there was only one other member who died of anything but old age anyway (and some of them may not even have done that - definitely so with Legolas, and possibly with the others who went to Aman).

With the Balrogs, though, they came close to being totally wiped out. The first two died in the Fall of Gondolin, most perished in the War of Wrath, and we know at least one of the "some few" that The Silmarillion says fled that War was killed by Gandalf. Most likely there were only one or two left after that, if any.

Zevox

averagejoe

2009-09-13, 11:59 PM

Why is Aragorn not wearing any pants? :smallconfused:

He moonlights as a superhero?

GoC

2009-09-15, 10:09 AM

A balrog is a demi-god.

I intend to give a name to this fallacy. Any suggestions?

Renegade Paladin

2009-09-15, 10:13 AM

I intend to give a name to this fallacy. Any suggestions?
I believe you're skipping a step. You need to show how it's a fallacy. :smalltongue:

(Note: Being incorrect and being a fallacy are two entirely different things.)

kamikasei

2009-09-15, 10:24 AM

Someone should do an anime lord of the rings.

I'm holding out for the anime Silmarillion. Different art styles for different stories would be a nice touch.

Spiky hair is for impulsive guys.

Now I want to see Pippin on the battlements of Minas Tirith giving a "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE?" speech to the host on Pelennor Field.

His eyes get narrower as the story goes on. That's what they did in Death Note.

Gah, stop it! Too many awesome ideas crowding about my head!

GoC

2009-09-15, 11:50 AM

I believe you're skipping a step. You need to show how it's a fallacy. :smalltongue:
The statement:
"A is demigod is a good argument in the context of extra-universal comparisons." is false by counter-example.
1. Create E6 campaign. Use rules in Deities and Demigods to create deities for this world. Optimize them as well as the ones in that book are.
2. Create super-epic D&D 3.5 campaign. Create a spellcaster with almost no-holds barred cheese but removing Sarrucks and infinite loops.
Take the mortal spellcaster from 2 and pit him against the pantheon leader from 1.

Hence the person saying "A is a demigod." needs to demonstrate that this is a valid argument in this instance. He didn't.

(Note: Being incorrect and being a fallacy are two entirely different things.)
:rollseyes:
I've spent quite a while (many hours wasted trying to create a versatile proof-checker:smallsigh:) looking at what logic is thank you.

EDIT: Die typos!:smallfurious:

KnightDisciple

2009-09-15, 06:10 PM

WalkingTarget

2009-09-15, 06:49 PM

Demigod:1. Mythology
a. A male being, often the offspring of a god and a mortal, who has some but not all of the powers of a god.
b. An inferior deity; a minor god.
c. A deified man.
2. A person who is highly honored or revered.

If the Valar are very nearly deities, Maiar (which is what a Balrog is) could arguably be considered demigods, at least in the general literary and mythological sense of the word.

Really, I don't see the problem with referring to the Balrog as such. It's imprecise, for sure, but neither truly incorrect, or a fallacy. :smallconfused:

If I'm reading things right, GoC's argument isn't that Balrog's aren't "demigods" or whatever, it's that a being's status as one has to be taken into context with what that entails in it's home setting if making comparisons to things from other, possibly higher-power-scale settings.

He's saying that "demigod > non-deities" isn't automatically true and he's tired of it being used as if it trumped anything.

GoC

2009-09-15, 07:46 PM

If I'm reading things right, GoC's argument isn't that Balrog's aren't "demigods" or whatever, it's that a being's status as one has to be taken into context with what that entails in it's home setting if making comparisons to things from other, possibly higher-power-scale settings.

He's saying that "demigod > non-deities" isn't automatically true and he's tired of it being used as if it trumped anything.

Why is it I seem to be incapable of communicating properly?:smallconfused:

My sleep debt isn't that much...