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Sliver
2009-09-12, 12:12 PM
One of my players is kinda new, she only played first level before and didn't create a char herself. She wants to play a dwarf wielding dwarven war hammers and charging, but has no idea where to take it so she asked me to help her out and in turn I come to you for advice..

The game is 32pb level 10 gestalt with 4LA free buyout.. Its from some advanced guide, don't really remember the name, which is for a higher power game where the players can take up to 4LA for free without level loss and if they take a cheaper LA race/template they can convert it, 1LA=3power points that can be used to get +4 to a stat, +2 to 2 stats, a feat, +8 to give to skills and other stuff..
The party has now a Rogue//DreadNecro (necropolitan (sp?) too, with most stats ranging from 20-30, Huge CHA and Undead Leadership.. More NPCs for her then me) , a Druid//Barb/warshaper (wood elf woodling, took the lion totem for pounce), a Crusader//FavSoul (Took TombTainted to get the DreadNecro healing).

So I was thinking about Cleric//Barb at first, lion totem for pounce too, but then I thought about Barb1/Warblade9..
So I ask you for build help, if she should take some template for the dwarf or just up her stats, what feats (can take up to 2 flaws) and if there are good PrCs or multiclassing here..
I was thinking about TombTainted here too, its an all evil party so no spont healing and preping heal spells just for one member of the party doesn't sound the best thing to me...

Adumbration
2009-09-12, 12:18 PM
You know, you might want to take a look at the Midgard Dwarf in Frostburn, page 124. It has 4 LA and 8 racial outsider hit dice, which would go very nicely on the other side of gestalt.

EDIT: For class on the other side I would propose Warblade, going into Deepstone Sentinel at the next level.

EDIT 2: My build would be something like this. Warblade 10//Outsider HD 8/Deepwarden 2. Deepwarden for Con to AC instead of Dex, which is nice.

Charlie Kemek
2009-09-12, 12:29 PM
I would suggest a pixie (LA 4) warlock//scout/ranger with swift hunter. maybe a warlock//rouge/ranger/scout with swift hunter and swift ambusher. these classes are very easy to play, and easy to learn. they make a very good combination.

Sliver
2009-09-12, 12:44 PM
I would suggest a pixie (LA 4) warlock//scout/ranger with swift hunter. maybe a warlock//rouge/ranger/scout with swift hunter and swift ambusher. these classes are very easy to play, and easy to learn. they make a very good combination.

While probably true, not really what she wants to play..
The charging dwarf dual-wielding dwarven waraxes is what she wants to focus on and the other things are pretty much secondary..

Vizzerdrix
2009-09-12, 12:51 PM
Spellwarped (+3, MM3) Draconic (+1 Races of the Dragon) Dwarf. There is your +4 LA.

Fighter + (pounce variant) Barb is fun melee goodness outside the Bo9S.

Tempest (Comp. Adv.) will cover your TWF, but then you have the nasty need to split your cash between two weapons. Shadowsmith (Tome of Magic) and battlesmith (Races of Stone) are easy to get into and will help ease the cost burden of using two weapons.

Also the feats item familiar (Unearthed Arcana) and Ancestral Relic (Book of Exalted Deeds) can also ease financial burdens.

Half-Minotaur is also a +1 Template.

Charlie Kemek
2009-09-12, 01:01 PM
While probably true, not really what she wants to play..
The charging dwarf dual-wielding dwarven waraxes is what she wants to focus on and the other things are pretty much secondary..

okay. make your race be a Duergar. then you might want to make a scout 4/ranger 6//barbarian 1 (for pounce, maybe with some variant for different rage)/fighter 2-4/something X/dervish X or frenzied berserker X with oversized two weapon fighting with dwarven urtugs (however you spell them, I can't ever remember) or the entire other side could be psychic warrior, maybe with a level of barbarian, which would look like this: scout 4/ranger 6//psychic warrior 9 or 10(/barbarian 1).
skirmish damage every charge, even to enemies immune to the p. damage as long as they are Favored Enemies, lots of cool spells and manifestations, and could (optional) take levels in the Slayer prc if there is lots of one type of enemy, and get bonuses to that type too, plus a bunch of other cool stuff.

Edit: tempest sucks. the capstone ability isn't worth anything if you have pounce, and it requires a bunch of useless feats.

Keld Denar
2009-09-12, 01:02 PM
Hammers? Or Axes?

Cause warhammers...that has potential. Axes, not so much. The reason is primarily Greater Mighty Wallop (3rd level spell from RotDragon), one of the key elements of the build.

Gold Dwarf (dex penality instead of cha)
Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8//Warblade20.

Feats
1st Combat Casting (Prereq)
3rd TWF
5th Improved Init
6th Oversized TWF
9th Greater TWF

Stats
Cha > Con > Str > Int > Wis > Dex

Now, cast Greater Mighy Wallop on both of your warhammers, increasing their damage dice by 2 sizes (at this level, 3 sizes at level 12). Warblade keeps your BAB full, which, at level 12 when your 5th level of AbjChamp kicks in, will give you a CL=BAB.

Warblade should probably stick with mostly Tiger Claw and Iron Heart maneuvers, with a touch of Diamond Mind in for good measure.

Defensively, you get Cha to saves, your Shield spell is a swift action that gives +7 AC (+9 at level 12) and a decent dwarven Con score, not to mention sorcerous casting which can net you gems like Wings of Cover and Greater Mirror Image.

Maybe a little complicated, but not completely terrible. Damage might be a little lowish, but not terribly bad, especially if you get some decent magic weapons and other damage increases like Gauntlets of War (CChamp) and similar gear.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-12, 01:28 PM
Oh come on, a pouncer can pour out damage without relying on cheese.

Raging however just combines too poorly with casting to make it worth it for a small stat boost ... if you rage you have to make it worth it, which comes down to Frenzied Berserker :)

Soo ... Psywar 10//Barbarian 2/fighter 4/FB 6?

Psywar is easier to play than a cleric and with Schism you don't lose your entire casting ability ... full psion also works, but obviously with less feats. A TWF pouncer is a rather feat intensive build, pulling it off at level 10 without either Psywar or fighter will be hard. With Psywar you could exchange fighter 4 for Warblade 4 for Iron Heart Surge and Moment of Perfect mind.

As a template Half-Fiend perhaps? It gives you mundane flight, always a good thing to have ... whatever template it is, SR is always nice.

Sliver
2009-09-12, 10:49 PM
A TWF pouncer is a rather feat intensive build, pulling it off at level 10 without either Psywar or fighter will be hard.

Well I donno, it is possible to use one of the LA points to get bonus feats or attributes or skills..
A player that takes a human, no template and has flaws can have up to 17 feats.. And I don't care if the LA points are used to take feats at level 1 or 10, and if a flaw can be taken at a higher level, it can give a higher level feat..

Also, I did houserule the TWF before... You get same amount of attacks with your off-hand weapon as you get with your main each turn, so standard attack will give you one attack with both, while at level 10 a full attack is 4 attacks total, 2 with each, and it only costs the basic TWF feat..

So.. Yeah, can you tell me how you would build such a char if you were playing my game? basic guidelines would be fine but if you can tell specific feats and should templates be used or LA points just converted to bonuses and feats..

Also, 90k gp starting gold (don't ask..) so equipment advice also appreciated. I was thinking about dual wielding large dwarven waraxes using the strongarm braces and oversized weapon fighting...

dspeyer
2009-09-13, 12:16 AM
the players can take up to 4LA for free without level loss and if they take a cheaper LA race/template they can convert it, 1LA=3power points that can be used to get +4 to a stat, +2 to 2 stats, a feat, +8 to give to skills and other stuff.

Do I understand correctly that a straight dwarf gets to add 48 points to stats pretty much spread as wanted? That sounds significantly more powerful than any la 4 template I know. It also sounds closer to the "badass dwarf" flavor, so lets go with it.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-13, 12:31 AM
Oh I missed the bonus feat for LA ... in that case I'd go Spellwarped Dwarf Psion 10//barbarian 1/Warblade 5/Frenzied Berserker 5/warblade 1.

Feats necessary : cleave, power attack, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, TWF, OTWF, leap attack. So with two flaws and 1 point of LA unused you're there, with 2 feats free (and bonus feats from psion and warblade). Make it an egoist and get Schism&Expansion from expanded knowledge, get the Linked Power Feat (also practiced manifester if you allow it to boost ML with schism).

As for items, besides the strongarm bracers a couple of belts of battle of course. Maybe make one of her weapons Shadow Striking to overcome DR. Perhaps a proof against transmutation armor to protect against disintegrates once below 0 hitpoints, together with a Deathward (from PGtF) Animated Shield and deathless frenzy should keep her alive most of the time.

Sliver
2009-09-13, 12:36 AM
Do I understand correctly that a straight dwarf gets to add 48 points to stats pretty much spread as wanted? That sounds significantly more powerful than any la 4 template I know. It also sounds closer to the "badass dwarf" flavor, so lets go with it.

Yes, that is exactly what goes.. That was a problem I had mainly when one of the players wanted to be a wizard.. High INT.. really high... but he wants a druid now, so nothing breaks here..

Edit: Thanks Pinky, will check it out!

PinkysBrain
2009-09-13, 12:41 AM
I'd reconsider letting them pump their abilities that high ... they will just SoD _everything_

Sliver
2009-09-13, 01:27 AM
I'd reconsider letting them pump their abilities that high ... they will just SoD _everything_

Yeah but... "They have high saves.. Its in their BLOOD.. You know what? there is a party of wizards and druids and clerics.. 100 in every stat. screw you"

dspeyer
2009-09-13, 03:43 AM
Here's a build:

Fighter 2 / Warblade 8 // Rogue 10
Feats:
1 TWF, Power Attack (ftr)
2 OTWF (ftr)
3 Adaptive Style
6 Concussion Attack
7 White Raven Defense
9 Clarion Commander
10 Impeding Attack (rge)

Stats: Str 38, Dex 18, Con 28, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 14 (unless you change the in-lieu-of-template rules to be something saner)

At the beginning of combat, use clarion commander to get perpetual flanking on your target. Then start wailing away for sneak attacks -- 5d6 each which can be traded for mental or physical stat damage.

Make sure to take sudden leap and pouncing charge (to get those full attacks in), white raven tactics (because it's just awesome) and all the counters.

Off the battlefield, you're as skillful as any rogue. You need intimidate, concentration and jump, but the rest can be picked to taste.

oxinabox
2009-09-13, 03:59 AM
ouch, buildign TOB at higher lvls isn't easy.
worth it, but not easy to do.
What about the mineral warriort template.
It's somewhere on the WoTC website.
But give a burrow speed, nice thing for a dwarf to have

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-09-13, 04:49 AM
I'd avoid throwing ten levels of ToB at a newer player. It may work out if she has a lot of gaming experience in general, but better to keep it simple rather than overwhelming her with several pages of special abilities.

Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is a strong choice. There aren't many templates that can match the other bonuses that you'd get in place of LA, though.

Consider going with a DFI Bard//Barbarian/Fighter with Requiem from LM. That would get enough spells to have some versatility outside of combat, but would be better off using Inspire Courage to add several dice of fire/sonic/whatever damage to everyone's attacks, including all the Dread Necro's undead minions. Go with a Fireblood Dwarf from Dragon Magic, get Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Song of the Heart, and Requiem, with a Badge of Valor from MIC and the spell Inspirational Boost. Starting out his Inspire Courage will grant +5d6 fire damage to all weapon attacks, and he can even cast more spells without interrupting it. Get the standard (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery, along with (Improved, Greater) TWF and Extra Rage. I'd go with the Whirling Frenzy variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) for more attacks/round. Pick up some Gloves of Endless Javelins from MIC along with Brutal Throw and he'll be a capable ranged combatant as well, since Inspire Courage will still apply. Also consider taking Rapid Metamagic in Complete Mage and getting a Lesser Rod of Quicken to avoid wasting a round to cast Haste. Get as many of those feats as you can at 1st level with those extra points, and spend everything else boosting Strength, Con, and make sure his Dex is high enough to get Greater TWF.

Sliver
2009-09-13, 04:55 AM
I'd avoid throwing ten levels of ToB at a newer player. It may work out if she has a lot of gaming experience in general, but better to keep it simple rather than overwhelming her with several pages of special abilities.

Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is a strong choice. There aren't many templates that can match the other bonuses that you'd get in place of LA, though.

Consider going with a DFI Bard//Barbarian/Fighter with Requiem from LM. That would get enough spells to have some versatility outside of combat, but would be better off using Inspire Courage to add several dice of fire/sonic/whatever damage to everyone's attacks, including all the Dread Necro's undead minions. Go with a Fireblood Dwarf from Dragon Magic, get Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Song of the Heart, and Requiem, with a Badge of Valor from MIC and the spell Inspirational Boost. Starting out his Inspire Courage will grant +5d6 fire damage to all weapon attacks, and he can even cast more spells without interrupting it. Get the standard (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery, along with (Improved, Greater) TWF and Extra Rage. I'd go with the Whirling Frenzy variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) for more attacks/round. Pick up some Gloves of Endless Javelins from MIC along with Brutal Throw and he'll be a capable ranged combatant as well, since Inspire Courage will still apply. Also consider taking Rapid Metamagic in Complete Mage and getting a Lesser Rod of Quicken to avoid wasting a round to cast Haste. Get as many of those feats as you can at 1st level with those extra points, and spend everything else boosting Strength, Con, and make sure his Dex is high enough to get Greater TWF.

Interesting.. I might go in that direction as she was kinda interested in bard on the other side..

oxinabox
2009-09-13, 05:09 AM
I'd avoid throwing ten levels of ToB at a newer player. It may work out if she has a lot of gaming experience in general, but better to keep it simple rather than overwhelming her with several pages of special abilities.

Mineral Warrior is a strong choice. There aren't many templates that can match the other bonuses that you'd get in place of LA, though.
you said what i was thinking but didn't want to type.

For a new player, how about a simpler build?
Maybe Warlock10//what ever charging you wanted
Warlock gives casting, but not an overwelming number of options.
it's probably the simplest caster there is. gives nice defenses two
Give it BattleCaster, and it works in medium armour, like barbarian.

Casting is something you want in a build normally.

dspeyer
2009-09-13, 11:16 AM
I'd been thinking a new player should avoid magic and psionics to keep things simple, but ToB was ok. Most of the maneuvers do simple things, the total number known is manageable and the mechanic is straightforward. The bookkeeping isn't bad either.

Warlock would be viable (if completely disconnected from the requested concept), so long as meta-slas and saving throws stay out of it.

jiriku
2009-09-13, 02:53 PM
+1 for avoiding spellcasting classes. She's played ONE CHARACTER at 1ST LEVEL and she didn't even make her own character? And now she's joining a party of level 10 GESTALT characters with another character that she didn't build? She's in way over her head here.

First of all, sit that girl down with the PHB and tell her to read chapters 1 through 8. If she still doesn't want to build her own character, I'd suggest a Fighter/Bar (pounce) gestalted with warlock. No, it won't be very powerful. But it'll be relatively simple and will give her a taste of casting, and she'll only need to refer to two books during play. Write her a custom feat so she can apply her eldritch blast to every attack on a full attack with her hammers. Yes, that's pretty broken, but she's going to need the help.

Plus, a new player ought to love the idea of dual-wielding two hammers that are blazing with eldritch energy. I know I do. :smallbiggrin: