Lucasarts releasing classic Star Wars games on Steam!

[Squark]

I know that this is old news (at least I think it is, I can't be sure), but I figured many people might not have heard yet. This may have been mentioned on the steam thread, but not all star wars buffs read that, so I thought I'd mention this here.

So, yeah. Lucasarts has already released KOTOR, Battlefront II, Starfighter, and Republic Commando, as well as 4 Original titles, 3 Indiana Jones titles, and a remake of the original Monkey Island game!


And they've announced that the Dark Forces saga is coming soon!


Am I the only one drooling over this?

[Fredthefighter]

Woohoo!

This would be brilliant for me.... if I didn't already have the following:

Empire at War
Knights of the Old Republic
Battlefront I
Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Republic Commando (Which I thought was frickin' brilliant)


But yes, this is something to look forward to.

[Crow]

Need some TIE Fighter up there baby!

[Matthew]

Yup. X-Wing, Tie Fighter, and Star Wars Supremacy. Glorious games of a bygone era... :smallfrown:

[Oregano]

They've also recently released the Super Star Wars game on the Nintendo Virtual Console.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Battlefront II

I thought you said classic?

The game isn't THAT old.


They've also recently released the Super Star Wars game on the Nintendo Virtual Console.

This, on the other hand, is more classic.

[/minor nitpick]

[Mewtarthio]

They've also recently released the Super Star Wars game on the Nintendo Virtual Console.

Refresh my memory: That's the game in which Luke is the one who slaughters all the Jawas, right?

[Rustic Dude]

Refresh my memory: That's the game in which Luke is the one who slaughters all the Jawas, right?


As it should have been. :smallbiggrin:

Here hopin' they do a remake of the X-Wing saga, like they have done with Monkey Island. And Star Wars Rebellion with updated graphics would be the greatest timesinker ever.

[Matthew]

As it should have been. :smallbiggrin:

Heh, heh. Gu-ti-nee!



And Star Wars Rebellion with updated graphics would be the greatest time sinker ever.

That is the US title for Star Wars Supremacy, right?

[Oregano]

Refresh my memory: That's the game in which Luke is the one who slaughters all the Jawas, right?

Yup, I stilll have my original copy as well.

I think they've also rereleased Super Empire Strikes Back and Super Return of the Jedi but I'm not sure.

[Rustic Dude]

Heh, heh. Gu-ti-nee!


That is the US title for Star Wars Supremacy, right?


Huh? I dunno if it's its title for US. It's how it's called here in Spain.


SULLUSTAN HORDES!!!!

[Matthew]

Huh? I dunno if it's its title for US. It's how it's called here in Spain.

SULLUSTAN HORDES!!!!

Google says... yes!

[Rustic Dude]

Google says... yes!

Yeah....Google is much better than that annoying C-3PO :smallmad:

[Drascin]

Refresh my memory: That's the game in which Luke is the one who slaughters all the Jawas, right?

And then the Sandcrawler murders you in revenge, yes.

[deuxhero]

Woohoo!

This would be brilliant for me.... if I didn't already have the following:

Empire at War
Knights of the Old Republic
Battlefront I
Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Republic Commando (Which I thought was frickin' brilliant)


But yes, this is something to look forward to.

Hmm, that list sounds familiar...

[mr_pathetic]

How about Star Wars Chess... all kinds of mad fun there. :smallwink:

[Myatar_Panwar]

For someone who has never really been that into Star Wars, would you guys recommend KotOR? I almost want to buy it just to understand why people are so crazy over it, though I probably won't enjoy it if alot of the appeal comes from gushing over crazy star wars related powers and whatnot.

If you know what I mean.

[warty goblin]

For someone who has never really been that into Star Wars, would you guys recommend KotOR? I almost want to buy it just to understand why people are so crazy over it, though I probably won't enjoy it if alot of the appeal comes from gushing over crazy star wars related powers and whatnot.

If you know what I mean.

As somebody who also isn't that into Star Wars, I wouldn't. It's very much the stock Bioware RPG sort of thing, with the world's most primative morality system*, and a lot of trading obviously turned based blows in painfully slow realtime. The character development is fairly well done because it's Bioware. But also because it's Bioware it's painfully slaved both to the morality system and some nonsensical plot triggers. It's also, in my opinion, crippled by adherence to a tabletop RPG rulesystem, which does little to harness the strength of a computer. In short it's a Bioware game with Star Wars. You can get a similar effect playing Mass Effect, except the combat is no longer the bastard offspring of two parents who took one look at each other the morning after, and realized what a huge mistake both of them had made, the setting is, at least to me, more interesting, and the mechanics aren't bound to a ruleset designed for a completely different medium.

Now if you're into Star Wars, I'm sure it's great. You get to be a Jedi and run around lightsabering people! I'm not all that much, and I found the experience to be quite apathetic.


*You burned down the orphanage! 20 Dark Side Points! You gave all your money to a legless begger! 10 Light Side Points! You delivered medicine to a hospital! 10 Light Side Points! Hey, you're an OK person! Oh no, you stepped on a kitten! 5 Dark Side Points!


On the rerelease: meh. I own most of those games that interest me. Want to get me excited, LucasArts? Two words and a number:

Republic Commando 2.

That is all.

[doliest]

For someone who has never really been that into Star Wars, would you guys recommend KotOR? I almost want to buy it just to understand why people are so crazy over it, though I probably won't enjoy it if alot of the appeal comes from gushing over crazy star wars related powers and whatnot.

If you know what I mean.

I had barely heard of star wars when I got Kotor and the game was amazing; the combat is fun and an excellent blend of turn-based and realtime, the rpg system makes the most of the system and the morality system and character development are interesting and fresh.

[Geno9999]

They got the Super Star Wars series on Wii's VC.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I actually really enjoyed Mass Effect, and if you are saying that it is similar to ME, if a little worse, than that is probably enough reason for me to buy it. I mean, its $10.

And black and white morality choices don't really bother me as they bother alot of people. Sure its no longer super exciting to be given the choice, though whatevs.

[Mando Knight]

I actually really enjoyed Mass Effect, and if you are saying that it is similar to ME, if a little worse, than that is probably enough reason for me to buy it. I mean, its $10.

And black and white morality choices don't really bother me as they bother alot of people. Sure its no longer super exciting to be given the choice, though whatevs.

No... ME is similar to KotOR. Plus, there's Jolee Bindo, HK-47, and Revan. Those three alone make up for just about everything that's less than desirable about the first game.

[Myatar_Panwar]

What... I don't understand your response at all.

Yes, I assumed that KotOR was similar to ME. There is no superiority given to either game with this statement.

No I was not talking about KotOR 2.

[warty goblin]

I actually really enjoyed Mass Effect, and if you are saying that it is similar to ME, if a little worse, than that is probably enough reason for me to buy it. I mean, its $10.

And black and white morality choices don't really bother me as they bother alot of people. Sure its no longer super exciting to be given the choice, though whatevs.

ME and KoTOR are similar yes. The combat isn't, at least to me, just a bit worse in KoTOR though, it's positively unbearable. You know how in ME there was a feeling of really being there, in the thick of it with Geth Colossi pounding your position? The pleasure of a well placed sniper round taking out an attack drone?

KoTOR doesn't feel like that. It feels like you have minimal control over a simulation of a game. Not a simulation, or emulation or even approximation of a reality, but a dedicated, hardcore simulation of a bunch of abstract rules. I have nothing a priori against sims, after all they are excellent ways to have a reasonable fascimile of an experience one otherwise would not. Playing a D20 system game is not an experience it is all that hard to have, the basic materials are readily available in a wide variety of shops.

I found it impossible to actually get involved in the fighting. In an actual RPG with friends, combat can be engaging. We egg each other on, see who can do the most damage, trade advice, make jokes about being raped by wookies*, things of that nature. When we miss a shot against a stationary target at three meters, there's a usually hilarious reason given, when we hit from 300, it's lauded as an appropriately awesome feat.

There's none of this in KoTOR, just the computer rolling dice to itself, and keeping you tabulated on the results. It's like somebody surgically removed all the fun from the proceedings, leaving you with the interactive equivilent of listening to the weather channel 24-7. Most of the occurances are 'partly cloudy, high 55 to 65," but on the occasion something cool does happen, you just hear a bored sounding voice telling you about it in the most dry, technical language possible.

Now there is some stuff to do in combat. You get to tell people not to be complete idiots, because without you, they will be. That means every shift of targeting, every grenade throw, every special power, that's you. Maybe this is fun for some people, I found it tedius to the extreme. It's like playing an RTS with crappy AI, but without the strategic goals that make the fighting meaningful.

*This happens in the game I play in. No, I don't want to talk about it. If you ever play under my GM, avoid the service corridors unless you want it to happen to you too.

This wouldn't be such a problem if, in classic RPG fashion, you could go more than three feet without getting into mortal combat. Tragically you cannot do this, because of course the only way to grow as a person is to absolutely kill the stuffing out of 80% of the life forms you meet. This means you are fighting all the bloody time.

I also found at least the starting planet, which is as far as I could tolerate the combat, to be really dull. Oh look, I'm in a city. Woo. There's a bunch of people I can't talk to wandering around vaguely. What's the point of being a space opera if I can't have some freaking awesome scenery? Where's my two suns falling below a crimson ocean? My forest of purple trees swaying in the green rain? My ruins of an elder race, left to mummify in the desert for a thousand million years, an epitaph of the greatness of those who went before? ME didn't do as much with this as it could have, but driving the Mako up impossibly steep terrain into a red sunset while green spores flittered through the air was legitimately awesome.

I don't know, but I'll bet good money that had I continued to play I would have gone to a few more boring cities, a desert planets (either Tatoine or Dantoine probably), a jungle planet, maybe a volcano planet and one other tiresome theme world.

On the upside, the characterization was fairly good. Very similar to Mass Effect, but still good.

[doliest]

I really don't get people's complaints about the combat. I found the feat and power buying mixed together with intelligent combat choices to be more enjoyable then ME's combat, and that's not getting into the fact that eventually you stop seeing ME's combat as something that has you ducking and covering in every fight and starting to see it as repetitive zerg swarms...but really the chief reasons to play KOTOR are story, characters, and to try to be creative with the system. Really KOTOR's chief victory over ME is the ability to actually TALK to your party and form connections...really the only real memorable conversation with the party I can remember from ME was making Garrith my Yes-Man...which admittedly was fun. :smallamused:

[Fayd]

So, I'm looking for a verdict on KotOR...I've never played it, played NWN2 with some heavy customization option mods (PRC packs FTW)...I spent more time in the character maker stuff than in the game itself.

Is it fun, and more importantly, is it worth $10?

[doliest]

So, I'm looking for a verdict on KotOR...I've never played it, played NWN2 with some heavy customization option mods (PRC packs FTW)...I spent more time in the character maker stuff than in the game itself.

Is it fun, and more importantly, is it worth $10?

Based on that background, very much so. The only problem I'd say you're going to have is that there is not a character maker beyond building your character when you start and then deciding what skills, feats, etc to invest in at lv ups.

[Driderman]

For someone who has never really been that into Star Wars, would you guys recommend KotOR? I almost want to buy it just to understand why people are so crazy over it, though I probably won't enjoy it if alot of the appeal comes from gushing over crazy star wars related powers and whatnot.

If you know what I mean.

I've always had a healthy amount of spite reserved for the star wars franchise, but the KOTOR games are pretty good and I'd recommend playing them. It's been some years though, they may not have aged well

[Rustic Dude]

I liked both Kotor much more than Mass Effect. A matteer of tastes, I suppose, but I found ME combat repetitive....at least in Kotor you have more...fancy things. And it operates with a modified version of the good ol' d20 D&D system, so it's easier to understand for me.

[Athaniar]

KotOR is one of the best games ever released. The sequel, on the other hand... *shakes fist at Obsidian*

I also have Galactic Battlegrounds and Battlefront I/II, all very good games. By the way, I can't seem to get that BF2 mega mod that's supposed to include the Old Republic and all that to work properly. Can't get the map editor to work either, but I've forgotten if it's related to the mod.

[deuxhero]

I say the opposite. The first game was meh, the second was interesting.

[Athaniar]

Sure, the second had better mechanics, but the plot was one of the worst I've ever seen.

[onasuma]

Im glad about this. Yesterday I pulled out my old JK2 disc for another run through only to find out it wont install (ikernel issue or something...). Ill just buy it from steam. Easy.

[deuxhero]

Sure, the second had better mechanics, but the plot was one of the worst I've ever seen.

Worse than the first game? Is that even possible? All the first game had going for it's plot is that one twist you know. The second game far more interesting villains than Malek's "Hahaha! I am going to take over the world". The player has no motivation for anything in the first game if they were not stupidly loyal to the republic (contrast revenge/personal survival/save the republic all being valid motives in the second game).

[Athaniar]

My main problem with KotOR2 is

Kreia. She is most likely the worst villain ever. She lacked any real villainousness whatsoever and made the whole thing completely uninteresting. Also, the main part of the game consists of finding the Jedi Masters. And then what happens? She kills them. Yeah.

Call me old-fashioned, but I like the traditional "good vs evil" story, such as the original's. Malak is a traditional, bad-to-the-bone evil villain. And the Revan reveal was pretty well done, I think.

But in the end, this is all my personal opinion. No matter how wrong you are much you disagree with me, your opinion is still as valid as mine.

[deuxhero]

My main problem with KotOR2 is

Kreia. She is most likely the worst villain ever. She lacked any real villainousness whatsoever and made the whole thing completely uninteresting. Also, the main part of the game consists of finding the Jedi Masters. And then what happens? She kills them. Yeah.

Call me old-fashioned, but I like the traditional "good vs evil" story, such as the original's. Malak is a traditional, bad-to-the-bone evil villain. And the Revan reveal was pretty well done, I think.

But in the end, this is all my personal opinion. No matter how wrong you are much you disagree with me, your opinion is still as valid as mine.

The bit you hate makes a lot more sense when you have seen the darkside version where the jedi masters are already dead.


She intended for the exile's actions to prove them and the Jedi Code completly wrong, to defeat them "without striking a blow". She is very annoyed that you prevented that by killing them.
She only decides to kill them after they ignore what she made clear and start being idiots and decide to cut the exile off from the force again, despite how bad an idea it is when the exile is the only way to stop Nihilus.

What is wrong with Kreia's goals? Think about the implications of killing the force for a bit...

[doliest]

To sum it up I like KOTOR's plot more, but two's ending was excellent in my opinion because

It takes a parody style, you arrive to face Kreia and she tells you something like, "What were you expecting some grand truth, some momentous revelation? No, there is nothing but you, and the force." You've got to like an ending like that.

[Squark]

The problem with KOTOR II was it was released half-finished. A LOT of content got cut near the end.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The second game far more interesting villains than Malek's "Hahaha! I am going to take over the world".

The second game has villains with far better dress sense than Malek. I honestly prefer Malek to both Sion and Nihilus in actual characterisation since he actually does stuff. Nihilus only appears twice in the whole game and his powers and death, while theoretically cool, are rendered incredibly lamely. Sion spends all his time moping about how he hates the Exile because he fancies her and how he can't be a big bad Sith Lord because his mommy I mean Kreia won't let him. Malek's old school cackling and lightning throwing evil just blows them out of the water. Forget his dopey looking jaw, he's as tall as a wookiee, has a giant lightsaber he wields one-handed, considers other people to be nothing but tools and doesn't take **** from anyone. That's what a Sith Lord should be like. Depth is better than simplicity, but failed depth is weaker than succesful simplicity and simplicity is a lot easier to pull off.




What is wrong with Kreia's goals? Think about the implications of killing the force for a bit...


You think about the implications. The force is an energy field created by life. You can't destroy it without killing life. It's a symbiotic existance (what do you think midichlorians are about? They make sense if you actually think about them rather than just complain). Cutting yourself off from the force doesn't mean that you're destroying it, it just means that you're seperating yourself from the galactic hivemind. Cutting everyone off from the force might "kill" it, but it would also doom everyone to a lonely existance.

At her heart Kreia is a spoilt brat. Her entire motivation is that she wants everyone to agree with her, value her as a teacher and become a copy of her student. The only reason she seems clever is because the plot has made her the only way to kill Nihilus and made the Jedi Masters look like idiots.

[Athaniar]

Finally, someone who agrees with me.

[Impnemo]

Ignoring the incomplete state and the potential for more meaningful interaction with the characters, the rails the story rode were rough. Kotor 2 reads more like a failed attempt to apply a homebrew D&D campaign to an incompatible setting. Replace "The Force" with "The Weave" and the plot starts to make more sense. It may have made for a decent story on its own merits, but it did not build on or complement the universe it was supposed to.


I also found at least the starting planet, which is as far as I could tolerate the combat, to be really dull.

So you played D&D 3.5e from level 1-6 and decided the combat system was rotten? I don't think anyone is going to argue that, but don't blame Kotor. At least finish the game.

[Athaniar]

Soo, KotOR 2's plot in NWN 2 and NWN 2's plot in KotOR 2: better or worse?

[warty goblin]

So you played D&D 3.5e from level 1-6 and decided the combat system was rotten? I don't think anyone is going to argue that, but don't blame Kotor. At least finish the game.

I found the starter planet dull for a number of reasons:

1) The combat. I feel I've already laid out my arguments for why this sucks. Maybe it gets better later, but I doubt it. I suffered through NWN 2 until level 14 or so, and the combat still sucked. Since both games are based off of more or less the same rules, I think it likely that the same complaints would persist throughout.

2) The absolutely dead boring scenery/setting. Maybe it's because I'm from a rural area, but I almost always find those spaces more interesting than a city. This goes double in science fiction, where cities end up feeling like, well, cities, but the wilder areas can be much more creative in ways that interest me. Put another way, look at the opening scene in a game like Oblivion- after the starter dungeon you get this huge, beautiful landscape. Even if you couldn't explore it all, it would still be visually interesting. Even Halo had more interesting level design, despite using a grand total of maybe six textures for interiors. There was still some striking topography there. The starter planet in KoTOR felt like two grey platforms and a bunch of grey corridors. It elevated visual monotony to an art form. A really boring art form.

[Impnemo]

Well, 3.5e combat changes drastically past those levels and Kotor changes past that point too. Whether or not its for the better really depends on perspective. A lot of people enjoy the Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter style of D&D adaptations, and Kotor is Neverwinter Nights modified. If the problem is one with turn based combat that's probably not going to change, but at least wait until you've experienced the combat the developers built the game around before condemning it. And if it is an issue with turn based combat at least make note that its personal taste, not a flaw of the game.

As for scenery, that again depends. Is it the big open world that draws appeal? Baldur's Gate had that, its not really something new to games like Oblivion, but yes the KotoR world does feel confined. Not small mind you just... tunnel like. Graphically, though, the game is astonishing for its time. Is it just the world that gets presented? In that case, play it through. As soon as you get off Taris (starter) you go to an open grassland setting. Major cities are so under represented in SW games you would think the entire galaxy was either an under developed frontier or a post apocalyptic ruin. Tatooine (makes an appearence), Endor, Hoth, Nar Shaddaa are all over done. The settings chosen for KotoR are pretty diverse considering and wholly appropriate given the circumstances of the story.


The starter planet in KoTOR felt like two grey platforms and a bunch of grey corridors.

So they intended to build a world that felt like New York City covered the entire surface, succeeded, and its bad? I'd count that as a success myself.

[warty goblin]

Well, 3.5e combat changes drastically past those levels and Kotor changes past that point too. Whether or not its for the better really depends on perspective. A lot of people enjoy the Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter style of D&D adaptations, and Kotor is Neverwinter Nights modified. If the problem is one with turn based combat that's probably not going to change, but at least wait until you've experienced the combat the developers built the game around before condemning it. And once you do at least make note that its personal taste, not a flaw of the game.

I don't object to turn based combat per say. In fact, in some places I positively enjoy it. I played Age of Wonders until I could dance armies on the heads of pins because the combat was enjoyable. I even find the combat in Drakensang: The Dark Eye fairly tolerable. Inidental to my real goals in the game, which tend to focus on acquiring as much funky headgear for my character as possible, but tolerable. Partly I think this is because the Dark Eye system is simply more interesting from a mechanical point of view, and partly because that title appears to place much less emphasis on stabbing things than my recollection of KoTOR.


As for scenery, that again depends. Is it the big open world that draws appeal?
Baldur's Gate had that, its not really something new to games like Oblivion, but yes the KotoR world does feel confinedNot necessarily. My point is that the opening vista in Oblivion is impressive and interesting. It would still be interesting if you couldn't explore all that. Hell, the Witcher, which is very much not open world, has more interesting atmosphere for its settings. Some of this is due to the simply more powerful hardware it is designed to run on, but a lot of it is simply due to better art design.

. Not small mind you just... tunnel like.
It always felt small to me. Probably due to the constant loading screens.

Graphically, though, the game is astonishing for its time.
Compare to Halo, which was released first on the same hardware, has at least as many characters on screen in battle (and certainly has better AI for those characters), lots of fully voiced incidental dialog, much larger levels, fairly advanced physics, and still looks better.


but. Is it just the world that gets presented? In that case, play it through. As soon as you get off Taris (starter) you go to an open grassland setting. Major cities are so under represented in SW games you would think the entire galaxy was either an under developed frontier or a post apocalyptic ruin. Tatooine (makes an appearence), Endor, Hoth, Nar Shaddaa are all over done. The settings chosen for KotoR are pretty diverse considering and wholly appropriate given the circumstances of the story.
It gets better later is an argument I'll buy to a degree. Three or four hours goes well past that, when at the same time I've got a game that starts good, continues good, and ends good. It doesn't even have to be the same good throughout, but there's no reason for the first substantial investature of time to suck. That is simply bad design.

I suspect part of this is simply a limitation of the top down perspective, wherein I spend most of my time looking at the ground. There are only so many interesting things to be done with the ground. I'm aware of the over the shoulder camera, but find it unmanagable since it fails to slave my mouse to the center of the screen.



So they intended to build a world that felt like New York City covered the entire surface, succeeded, and its bad? I'd count that as a success myself.
It's a completely made up setting, they could have made it look like just about anything. Instead they made it look boring. Not mundane, that'd be trash in the streets, things being broken and repaired, swatches of color and bright light from signs, things like that. I can be interested in mundane- most of the Witcher is fairly prosaic like this. But KoTOR isn't mundane or fantastic looking, as far as I can tell. Just boring.

[deuxhero]

You think about the implications. The force is an energy field created by life. You can't destroy it without killing life. It's a symbiotic existance (what do you think midichlorians are about? They make sense if you actually think about them rather than just complain). Cutting yourself off from the force doesn't mean that you're destroying it, it just means that you're seperating yourself from the galactic hivemind. Cutting everyone off from the force might "kill" it, but it would also doom everyone to a lonely existance.

At her heart Kreia is a spoilt brat. Her entire motivation is that she wants everyone to agree with her, value her as a teacher and become a copy of her student. The only reason she seems clever is because the plot has made her the only way to kill Nihilus and made the Jedi Masters look like idiots.


No I meant it basically amounts to killing the writers (Note how various EU writers mention it to explain really unlikely things) to give people true free will (something Bastila notes in the first game does not exist because of The Force). Given her grasp on how XP works, this seems very intentional.


@warty goblin
The reason you hated KotOR's combat wasn't because it was turn based, but because it was a horrible system known as "Real Time with Pause" that never worked.

[Impnemo]

Soo, KotOR 2's plot in NWN 2 and NWN 2's plot in KotOR 2: better or worse?

Well, I just had the whole rip The Force The Weave apart bit in mind. It seemed like a homebrew Faerûn campaign that got adapted. Never mind that atrocities on that scale have happened before in the universe with no such affects. It just didn't mesh. And that unraveled, if you'll forgive the expression, the teacher/student dynamic with Kreia and the stupid-good Jedi.

Honest opinion though, better. Creating forces that rival gods with the power of the Weave(s) has precedence for damaging the Weave(s) in Faerûn, and the good guy paying any price to do right yet going bad is archetypical SW stuff. Its even hinted at as Revan's motivation in KotoR. 2 tries to tap that as the explanation for Revan's fall from the get go without ever actually explaining anything.

2 could have focused on that grey area and done well, I think. The best part I recall was if you did a "Good" thing for a beggar on Nar Shaddaa. You toss him some money and Kreia scolds you for not considering the repercussions. Of course, she scolds you regardless of how you handle it, but hey, its a no win situation. A series of classic RPG good/evil choices and Kreia chimes in and brings a dose of reality to the typical two dimensional ethics. I liked how it explored things like that, wanted more. But that aspect of the game got consumed by Nihilus, I guess.


horrible system known as "Real Time with Pause" that never worked.

Because Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, and Kotor were such unsuccessful titles? This is what I meant by taste. Some people don't have it :smalltongue:


It gets better later is an argument I'll buy to a degree.

I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying it gets different later. Frankly I enjoyed Taris. SW games typically stay on the beaten path. The well beaten path. If it was a horse you'd have buried the path long ago but, no, you stay on the path. Even past the point of it making any sense to be on the path you stay on the path. KotoR opened on a major planet and did a good job of creating an atmosphere for it. If you want a different atmosphere there are other worlds with different themes and environments.

[warty goblin]

[SPOILER]
@warty goblin
The reason you hated KotOR's combat wasn't because it was turn based, but because it was a horrible system known as "Real Time with Pause" that never worked.

Mostly yes. The thing is, there are cases of that system that I do like. It works in the Witcher, because I'm actually directly involved in the attacks, it isn't just sit back and watch people plonk away until I decide to do something else. I'm an active participant, something I like in my games. Pausing is only neccessary to go to the inventory or queue up a potion. I don't mind it in Drakensang so much, because there the rounds are simultanious. This means that the time between actions in a round is much easier to use, allowing me to better issue orders without having to pause the game. But in general yes, I don't like pausing realtime games in order to issue orders. To me it sort of defeats the point of being in real time- namely the pressure of having to make decisions without liesure to mull things over, and the round structure feels like it builds a six second latency into most of my input, since I appear to be issuing orders in real time, even though I'm not.

[Vic_Sage]

I gotta agree with the people saying KotR combat was ****. Good story but the gameplay is such crap that I can't play through it to get into the story.

And god dammit stop releasing old stuff and get onto Republic Commando 2, I need to find out what happened to Sev dammit.

[warty goblin]

I gotta agree with the people saying KotR combat was ****. Good story but the gameplay is such crap that I can't play through it to get into the story.

And god dammit stop releasing old stuff and get onto Republic Commando 2, I need to find out what happened to Sev dammit.

Marry me. Please?

[Vic_Sage]

Sorrry, I walk through this god forsaken Universe alone *Dons leather jacket and makes exit*

[deuxhero]

Because Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, and Kotor were such unsuccessful titles? This is what I meant by taste. Some people don't have it :smalltongue:



Just because a game is comerically successful does not mean it is good (see Big Rigs, good canidate for worst game ever, made money), and I am saying the COMBAT sucks. (There is also a very strong argument for the fact that NWN's OC IS poor, and I am of the few that think KotOR was poor, but is for another time.)

[warty goblin]

I think we can at least agree that it's a matter of taste.

[Linkavitch]

Yup, I stilll have my original copy as well.

I think they've also rereleased Super Empire Strikes Back and Super Return of the Jedi but I'm not sure.

Yeah, they did. if I had any points on my WiiShop accout, I would so get one of those.

[Closet_Skeleton]

No I meant it basically amounts to killing the writers (Note how various EU writers mention it to explain really unlikely things) to give people true free will (something Bastila notes in the first game does not exist because of The Force). Given her grasp on how XP works, this seems very intentional.


So what? According to our current understanding of physics, free will doesn't exist in our world.

The force actually increases free will, because it adds in a god-style existance. Not as much as the Judo-Christian God does but more than quantum physics does.

It's true that you can replace every instance of "the force" in the Star Wars films with "the plot" and understand things perfectly, but Kreia's ideas are too metafictional for Star Wars. I'd rather see a story that takes something and does interesting things with it rather than point out the holes in it.

Her grasp of how XP works makes no sense in light of the first game and from what I've heard is re-cycled from Planescape: Torment.


Because Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, and Kotor were such unsuccessful titles? This is what I meant by taste. Some people don't have it :smalltongue:

Baldur's Gate (and other infinity engine games like Icewind Dale) is the only one of those that really worked and that's because it was a tactical stratergy game. NWN and KotOR are both rather unsuccesful attempts to replicate the Infinity Engine's style in a way that misses the point. NWN 2 on the other hand tried to replicate the Infinity Engine in a way that completely missed anything playable.

NWN and KotOR's combat worked in that it wasn't "broken", but it was hardly "good" either.

[Mando Knight]

Not as much as the Judo-Christian God does but more than quantum physics does.

Judo-Christian?
...
...Jesus puts you into a choke hold (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KungFuJesus), then throws you onto your back before you can slip your hand into his exposed side...

[Fayd]

So, I got KotOR, and would be enjoying it were it not looking like this and flickering...

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt328/TheAngrySun/KotORgraphicsbug.png

Any idea what's going on? My graphics card is MORE than sufficient to run this game, even on a laptop...

[Philistine]

You're running it on a laptop? The graphics card (assuming it is a card, and it's not just on the mobo) may not be supported, whether or not it's "powerful enough." Particularly if it's one of Intel's integrated "Graphics Media Accelerators."

[chiasaur11]

So, if'n one could only get one:

Republic Commando, or KotOR?

[deuxhero]

See if you can find the best of PC collection, it contains both (and Jedi Outcast, better than both IMO, Empire at War and Battlefront, are also in it)

edit:checked, Amazon still has it.

[warty goblin]

So, if'n one could only get one:

Republic Commando, or KotOR?

That's easy. Republic Commando is probably the finest linear shooter outside of Half-Life 2 this decade. It doesn't last long, but damn is it a good time. The squad command bit isn't terribly deep, but it's got enough substance to make you feel deeply badass when orchastrating the carefully controlled yet beautifully chaotic takedown of hordes of battle droids. The characters are remarkably well done, with a lot of both spontaneous battlefield banter and scripted dialog. All of it's consistant to the personalities though, and they'll mock you mercilessly for blowing yourself up with a grenade.

I've read complaints that the guns seem underpowered, but it really feel like that when you're blowing the arms off of battle droids or cutting them in half with your wrist blade.

Plus, the ending fills me with a desire to violently shank Yoda right in his stupid face. That alone, you have to admit, is a sign of some effective storytelling going on.

[Vic_Sage]

So, if'n one could only get one:

Republic Commando, or KotOR?
Republic Commando man. And be a man, whenever you run into a SBD or Magna Guard use nothing but your Knife.

[warty goblin]

Republic Commando man. And be a man, whenever you run into a SBD or Magna Guard use nothing but your Knife.

If you can get through the end of the Venator level with just the knife, I think the greatest warriors in history turn up and present you with the balls which they are no longer worthy to bear.

Although you can do pretty well using just the melee strike of the Concussion Rifle.

[Vic_Sage]

I remember I tried to melee a Trando elite once. Really really really bad idea.

And one of the best things about RC? Your Squadmates AI, its was really really ****ing good.

[deuxhero]

I prefer "really ****ing scripted" (preferable to bad AI though)

[warty goblin]

I prefer "really ****ing scripted" (preferable to bad AI though)

Some serious scripting is certainly occuring, but even compared to other games with highly scripted encounters it still looks very good. They'll show initiative, position themselves intelligently, and generally do a dependable job of accomplishing their objectives. You seldom have to worry about them getting caught on the scenery, or failing to activate a script trigger or anything like that. As I said before, they really are dependable, which is just about perfect for a game like this, and on the levels where you don't have them, you certainly miss them.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Some serious scripting is certainly occuring, but even compared to other games with highly scripted encounters it still looks very good. They'll show initiative, position themselves intelligently, and generally do a dependable job of accomplishing their objectives. You seldom have to worry about them getting caught on the scenery, or failing to activate a script trigger or anything like that. As I said before, they really are dependable, which is just about perfect for a game like this, and on the levels where you don't have them, you certainly miss them.

It is very rare you can say that about AI allies in a game. This game has now just made my "I will get when I get around to it" list.

[chiasaur11]

It is very rare you can say that about AI allies in a game. This game has now just made my "I will get when I get around to it" list.

Same.

Only other AI buddy I can think of that that quote applies to is Alyx.
(And Durandal, but I stretch a definition.)

[warty goblin]

Same.

Only other AI buddy I can think of that that quote applies to is Alyx.
(And Durandal, but I stretch a definition.)


Alyx is actually a very good comparison, and is probably about as smart in a 'kill the baddies' sense- doesn't get in the way, doesn't get shot unnecessarily, and can be counted on to put some smacktards on the ground. The Republic Commando AI is a bit more useful, but simply because there's a bit more available for it to do. It'll revive you, or other squad members, complete objectives when ordered or even concentrate fire on a target*.

*It's often worthwhile to do this. Besides getting the SPD dead a bit faster, it highlights the target so you can see it through walls, provides a health bar and is generally awesome. Actually, the quality of the HUD effects in that game is fairly spectacular- I mean punching droids so hard they spray oil all over your face, then watching your little magnetic windshield wiper clean it off just never gets old. Nor does the skeletal outline of targets you get when using the sniper rifle.

[Vic_Sage]

But seriously though SBD's are a ****ing terror.

[warty goblin]

But seriously though SBD's are a ****ing terror.

It's when you get multiple dispensers at once that you know you're in for a hard time of it. Seriously, they make the Destroyer droids look positively easy. I don't know about the rest of you, but I always have to sort of cackle when a standard battle droid dispenser shows up, because blowing the little guys up is so much fun...