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View Full Version : The Summoner [3.5 Base Class, PEACH]



Admiral Squish
2009-09-12, 11:15 PM
The Summoner

Magic users are often familiar with summon spells, utilizing the power to call infernal or celestial creatures to aid them in battle. Druids are capable of summoning beasts to aid them, as well. To a true summoner, these are laughable attempts, and calling them a summon is like calling a child's awkward scrawlings art. A summoner does not call creatures or animals to his aid, instead, he calls down the very concepts of these things, giving them shape and form and will.

Hit Die: D8

Class Skills: The Summoner’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), speak language (Int), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Intelligence modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Intelligence Modifier


Summoner
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Summons, Spirits of Nature

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Spirit of the Beast

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Summoning Mastery

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Spirit of Venom, Summoning Mastery

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Strength of the Call, Wandering Spirit, Summoning Mastery

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|Spirit of the Brute

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Channel Might

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+2|
+6|Spirit of Mischeif, Lend Might, summoning mastery

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+6|

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+3|
+7|Spirit of Slime, Summoning Mastery

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+3|
+7|

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Spirit of the Warped, Lend Might, Summoning mastery

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+4|
+9|Spirit of Steel

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+9|Summoning Mastery

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|Spirit of Death, Lend Might, Summoning Mastery

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+11|Spirits of Good and Evil

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Spirits of the Ancients, Summoner's Epiphany, Summoning Mastery[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A summoner is proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, and shields.

Summons: A Summoner's powers revolve around his ability to call and command powerful spirits, giving them a form suitable to do so. A summoner's summons all last for one hour, except where otherwise noted. Summoning a spirit takes one round. Dismissing a summon is swift action. A Summoned creature always has a number of HD equal to your summoner level. If a summon and a summoner do not share a language or the summon is incapable of speech, a summoner can still communicate simple concepts such as 'go here', 'attack', and 'retreat' through an empathic link. A summon appears anywhere within a range of close to the summoner. If any summon is killed, it cannot be summoned again for 24 hours. All summons are supernatural abilities. Each time you Summon a Spirit, you call the same spirit.

Spirits of Nature: A summoner must be within thirty feet of an example of that element when summoning these spirits, and can only have one actice at any time. A summoner in the middle of an arid desert could not summon a water elemental, and one flying high above the ground could not summon an earth elemental. A summoned elemental is of appropriate size for it's HD or smaller, though they never decrease below small size.

Air:

Size/Type: Small Elemental (Air, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (+1d8/summoner level above first)
Initiative: +7
Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft
Special Attacks: Air mastery, whirlwind
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +3 Listen +3, Spot +4 Listen +5, Spot +6
Feats: Flyby Attack, Improved InitiativeB, Weapon Finesse B
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small) 4-7 HD (Medium) 8-15 HD (Large) 16-32 HD (Huge)

Air Mastery
Airborne creatures take a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls against an air elemental.

Whirlwind
The elemental can transform itself into a whirlwind once every 10 minutes and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has. In this form, the elemental can move through the air or along a surface at its fly speed.

The whirlwind is 5 feet wide at the base, up to 30 feet wide at the top, and up to 50 feet tall, depending on the elemental’s size. The elemental controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet.

The elemental’s movement while in whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the elemental enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the elemental moves into or through the creature’s space.

Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the elemental might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (see table for details) and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take the indicated damage. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful. The DC for saves against the whirlwind’s effects varies with the elemental’s size (see the table). The save DC is Strength based.

Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the elemental carries them or to escape the whirlwind.

Creatures caught in the whirlwind can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a -4 penalty to Dexterity and a -2 penalty on attack rolls. The elemental can have only as many creatures trapped inside the whirlwind at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume.

The elemental can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes, depositing them wherever the whirlwind happens to be. A summoned elemental always ejects trapped creatures before returning to its home plane.

If the whirlwind’s base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the elemental and has a diameter equal to half the whirlwind’s height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment.

Those caught in the cloud must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell.

An elemental in whirlwind form cannot make slam attacks and does not threaten the area around it.

Channel: Channeling an air elemental grants the summoner a fly speed equal to twice his base land speed feet with good maneuverability. In addition, he gain light fortification, as the armor special quality, and the ability to deflect arrows, as the feat, a number of times per round equal to 1+his dex modifier. All allies and summons within thirty feet gain a fly speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability.

Earth:

Size/Type: Small Elemental (Earth, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (+1d8+1/summoner level above first)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft.
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, -1 Dex, +7 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+0
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Earth mastery, push
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., earth glide, elemental traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref -1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 8, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +3, Spot +2
Feats: Power Attack
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small) 4-7 HD (Medium) 8-15 HD (Large) 16-32 HD (Huge)

Earth Mastery
An earth elemental gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its foe are touching the ground. If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. (These modifiers are not included in the statistics block.)

Push
An earth elemental can start a bull rush maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity. The combat modifiers given in Earth Mastery, above, also apply to the elemental’s opposed Strength checks.

Earth Glide
An earth elemental can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Channel: Channeling an earth elemental grants the summoner DR 5/adamantine, tremorsense 60 feet, and the ability to use the elemental's earth glide ability. All allies within thirty feet gain DR 3/adamantine

Fire:
Size/Type: Small Elemental (Fire, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (+1d8/summoner level above first)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 50 ft
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4 plus 1d4 fire)
Full Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4 plus 1d4 fire)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Burn
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits, immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Feats: Dodge, Improved InitiativeB, Weapon FinesseB
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small) 4-7 HD (Medium) 8-15 HD (Large) 16-32 HD (Huge)

Burn
A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental’s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see table). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Creatures hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save.

Channel: Channeling a fire elemental grant's you the elemental's burn ability. The damage and DC is equal to the elemental's. All allies within thirty feet deal fire damage on their attacks equal to the fire damage added on the elemental's slam attack.

Water:
Size/Type: Small Elemental (Water, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft., swim 90 ft.
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +6 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-1
Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 5 ft./5 ft. 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Water mastery, drench, vortex
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +0 Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Feats: Power Attack
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small) 4-7 HD (Medium) 8-15 HD (Large) 16-32 HD (Huge)

Water Mastery
A water elemental gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or the elemental is touching the ground, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. (These modifiers are not included in the statistics block.)

A water elemental can be a serious threat to a ship that crosses its path. An elemental can easily overturn small craft (5 feet of length per Hit Die of the elemental) and stop larger vessels (10 feet long per HD). Even large ships (20 feet long per HD) can be slowed to half speed.

Drench
The elemental’s touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of nonmagical origin if these are of Large size or smaller. The creature can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals elemental’s HD).

Vortex
The elemental can transform itself into a whirlpool once every 10 minutes, provided it is underwater, and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has. In vortex form, the elemental can move through the water or along the bottom at its swim speed. The vortex is 5 feet wide at the base, up to 30 feet wide at the top, and 10 feet or more tall, depending on the elemental’s size. The elemental controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet.

The elemental’s movement while in vortex form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the elemental enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in the vortex if it touches or enters the vortex, or if the elemental moves into or through the creature’s space.

Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the elemental might take damage when caught in the vortex (see table for details) and may be swept up by it. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save when it comes into contact with the vortex or take the indicated damage. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful currents, automatically taking damage each round. An affected creature is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the vortex. The creature still takes damage, but can leave if the save is successful. The DC for saves against the vortex’s effects varies with the elemental’s size. The save DC is Strength-based.

Creatures trapped in the vortex cannot move except to go where the elemental carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Creatures caught in the whirlwind can otherwise act normally, but must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a -4 penalty to Dexterity and a -2 penalty on attack rolls. The elemental can have only as many creatures trapped inside the vortex at one time as will fit inside the vortex’s volume.

The elemental can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes, depositing them wherever the vortex happens to be. A summoned elemental always ejects trapped creatures before returning to its home plane.

If the vortex’s base touches the bottom, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the elemental and has a diameter equal to half the vortex’s height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment.

Those caught in the cloud must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell.

An elemental in vortex form cannot make slam attacks and does not threaten the area around it.

Skills
A water elemental has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Channel: channeling a water elemental grants the summoner a swim speed of twice his base land speed and the ability to breathe water. He also gains the light fortification armor special quality, and the elemental's drench ability. All allies within thirty feet gain a swim speed equal to their base land speed and the ability to breathe water.


Spirit of the Beast: At second level, you can summon the spirits of animals to serve your cause. A summoned animal must be appropriate for it's environment. No matter what it looks like, they always share similar statistics. A Beast summoned in an aquatic environment replaces it's base land speed with a matching swim speed and gains the aquatic subtype.

Size/Type: Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (+1d8+2/summoner level above two)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 NA)
Base attack/Grapple: +1/+2 (Base Attack 3/4 progression)
Attack: Bite +4 Melee (1d6+4) or claw +4 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+4) and 2 claws -1 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 5/5
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5 Will +1 (Good Fort and Ref, poor Will, advance with HD)
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, and Cha 4.
Skills: Hide +2 Listen +3 Spot +3 Survival +1
Feats: Track
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 3 HD (Medium) 4-7 HD (Large) 8-20HD (Huge)

Trip: A beast that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+3 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the beast.

Channel: Channeling the spirit of the beast grants you a +2 bonus to natural armor, the scent ability, and natural claw and bite attacks that deal the same damage as the spirit of the beast. All allies within thirty feet gain the effects of the improved natural attack feat for any natural weapons they have.


Summoning Mastery: At third level, a summoner can call any spirit he is able to as a standard action.
At fourth level, and every four levels thereafter, a summoner gains the ability to control one additional summon at any given time.
At fifth level, a summoner can call any spirit he is able to as a swift action 1/day. The summoner gains another usage of this ability per day every five levels thereafter.

Spirit of Venom: At fourth level, you can summon the spirit of vermin to weaken your enemies. This appears as a monstrous spider, usually.

Size/Type: Large Vermin
Hit Dice: 4d8+4 (+1d8+1/summoner level above fourth)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft., climb 20 ft
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+9
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d8+3 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d8+3 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, web
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Climb +11, Hide +3*, Jump +2*, Spot +4*
Alignment: -

Poison
A monstrous spider has a poisonous bite. The details vary by the spider’s size, as shown on the table below. The save DCs are Constitution-based. The indicated damage is initial and secondary damage.

Web
Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

Web-spinners often create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 60 feet square, depending on the size of the spider. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has the hit points given on the table, and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—.

A monstrous spider can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.

Tremorsense
A monstrous spider can detect and pinpoint any creature or object within 60 feet in contact with the ground, or within any range in contact with the spider’s webs.

Skills
Monstrous spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A monstrous spider can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Monstrous spiders use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher.

*Hunting spiders have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks. Web-spinning spiders have a +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks when using their webs.

Channel: Channeling the spirit of venom Grants you a climb speed equal to your base land speed, immunity to webs, a bite attack, and poison, which uses the same DC and damage as the spirit of venom. All allies within thirty feet gain a climb speed equal to half their base land speed and any ally with a bite attack gains poison, with DC and damage equal to the spirit of venom's.


Strength of the Call: At fifth level, a Summoner's summons gain a bonus to natural armor, strength, and constitution equal to the summoner's charisma modifier.
At fifth level, and every three levels thereafter, all summons gain a +1 enhancement bonus to armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses, attack, and damage rolls.

Wandering Spirit: At fifth level, a summoner calls a restless, wandering spirit to take him from place to place. Treat this summon as a phantom steed, cast by a wizard of your class level, except it lasts a number of hours equal to your summoner level plus your charisma modifier, and can only be ridden by the summoner.

Spirit of the Brute: At sixth level, you can call the spirit of a giant to battle for you. This creature resembles a massive ogre, clad in patchy hide armor and carrying a greatclub that looks more like a tree.

Size/Type: Large Giant
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (+1d8+3/summoner level over six)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +6 natural, +3 hide armor)
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/ +13
Attack: Greatclub +9 melee (2d8+7)
Full Attack: Greatclub +9 melee (2d8+7)
Space/Reach: 10/10
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: str 20, dex 10, con 16, int 6, wis 10, and cha 6
Skills: Listen +3 Spot +3
Feats: Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Advancement:-
Language: Giant

Channel: Channeling the Brute grants you a +6 bonus to your strength score, and increases your size category by one, as though under the effects of enlarge person. This secondary effect can be surpressed or resumed as a move action. All allies within thirty feet gain a +4 bonus to their strength scores.


Channel Might: At seventh level, a summoner may, instead of summoning a spirit, channel it through himself, gaining some aspects of the channeled spirit and granting some to others nearby. Each spirit has a 'channel' entry in their statistics block that describes these granted powers. A channeled summon still counts against the maximum number of active spirits at a time.
At fifteenth level, a summoner may choose to channel a summon through another summon. Sometimes, channeling one summon through another grants extra bonuses over channeling it through oneself.

Lend might: At eighth level, a summoner can grant a single creature touched a +4 enchancement bonus to any single ability score. A creature can only have one such ehancement bonus at any time, though it can be replaced with a different ability. This bonus lasts one minute per class level. At twelfth level, a summoner can add this to two ability scores, and at sixteenth, this bonus becomes untyped.

Spirit of Mischeif: At eighth level, you can summon a mischevious sprite to cripple your foes. This creature resembles a miniscule pixie, with eternally-twitching fingers and a smile that advertises the sprite is more pleased with itself than it has any right to be.

Size/Type: Tiny Fey
Hit Dice: 8d6-16 (+1d6-2/summoner level above eight)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 15 ft. Fly 60 (perfect)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 size, +4 chain shirt, +2 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/-4 (Base Attack 1/2 progression)
Attack: Longbow +8 Ranged (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Longbow +8 Ranged (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5/0
Special Attacks: Touch of Mischeif, Sleep arrows
Special Qualities: Invisibility
Saves: Fort +0 Ref +10 Will +11
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 18, Con 6, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 18
Skills:Bluff +16, Disable Device +14, Escape Artist +16, Hide +16, Listen +17, Move Silently +16, Open lock +16, Spot +17
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, ability focus (touch of mischeif)
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Advancement:-
Language: Sylvan, Common, Elven

Touch of Mischeif: A Spirit of mischief can cast Greater Dispel magic, Rusting Grasp, or Shatter at will as a spell-like ability with a range of Touch. The DC is equal to 12+your cha modifier

Sleep Arrows: A spirit of Mischeif comes into existance with fourty arrows and ten sleep arrows. any creature struck by a sleep arrow must make a will save (DC 10+summoner's Charisma modifier) or fall asleep, as the sleep spell, regardless of HD.

Invisibility: A Spirit of Mischeif is invisible, as with the greater invisibility spell always active. A Spirit of Mischeif can surpress or resume this ability at will with a free action.

Channel: Channeling a spirit of mischeif, you gain a +10 bonus to hide checks, a fly speed equal to your base land speed, and use of the touch of mischeif special attack. All allies within thirty feet gain +5 on hide checks.


Spirit of Slime: At tenth level, a summoner can call a ooze to do battle with him. This massive slime appears as a black pudding, usually.

Size/Type: Huge Ooze
Hit Dice: 10d10+60 (+1d10+6/summoner level above ten
Initiative: -5
Speed: 20 ft, climb 20 ft
Armor Class: 3 (-2 size, -5 Dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+18
Attack: Slam +8 melee (2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid)
Full Attack: Slam +8 melee (2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Acid, constrict 2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid, improved grab
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60 ft., split, ooze traits
Saves: Fort +9, Ref -2, Will -2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 1, Con 22, Int Ø, Wis 1, Cha 1
Skills: Climb +11 Climb +16
Feats: —
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 11-19 HD (Huge) 20 HD (Gargantuan)

Acid
The creature secretes a digestive acid that dissolves organic material and metal quickly, but does not affect stone. Any melee hit or constrict attack deals acid damage, and the opponent’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless they succeed on DC 21 Reflex saves. A metal or wooden weapon that strikes a black pudding also dissolves immediately unless it succeeds on a DC 21 Reflex save. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

The pudding’s acidic touch deals 21 points of damage per round to wooden or metal objects, but the ooze must remain in contact with the object for 1 full round to deal this damage.

Constrict
A black pudding deals automatic slam and acid damage with a successful grapple check. The opponent’s clothing and armor take a -4 penalty on Reflex saves against the acid.

Improved Grab
To use this ability, a black pudding must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Split
Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.

Skills
A black pudding has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

Channel:Channeling the Spirit of Slime grants you DR 10/bludgeoning, moderate fortification as the armor special ability, and allows you to deal acid damage equal to Slime's extra damage on a slam attack on any natural attack you make. All allies within thirty feet gain DR 5/bludgeoning and deal an extra 1d6 acid damage on any natural attack.

Spirit of the Warped: At twelfth level, you can summon a twisted abberation from the depths of the underdark. This creature generally resembles a hook horror or an umber hulk.

Size/Type: Large Abberation
Hit Dice: 12d8+48 (+1d8+4/Summoner level above twelve)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. Burrow 20 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +3 dex, +8 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/ +20
Attack: Bite +16 melee (2d6+10)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (3d6+10) and two claws +16 melee (2d6+7)
Space/Reach: 10/10
Special Attacks: Improved Grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60, Tremorsense 60
Saves: fort +4 Ref +4 Will +8
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Climb +23 Listen +16
Feats: Multiattack, Improved multiattack, Improved Natural attack (Bite) Improved natural attack (claw), Power Attack
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement:-
Language: Terran

Improved Grab:
To use this ability, a Spirit of the Warped must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Channel:Channeling the spirit of the Warped grants the summoner a burrow speed equal to his base land speed, and he can leave a usable tunnel behind if he wishes. He also gains +4 natural armor and darkvision 60. All allies within thirty feet gain +2 natural armor and darkvision 60.

Spirit of Steel: At fourteenth level, you can call a construct through a medium of metal. You must target some metallic item within thirty feet when summoning Steel.
Summoned through a shield or armor:

Size/Type: Medium Living Construct
Hit Dice: 14d8+70 (+1d8+4/summoner level above fourteen)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft.
Armor Class: 22 (+8 adamantine plating, +4 tower shield.)
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+18
Attack: Longsword +18 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Longsword +18/+13/+8 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 5/5
Special Attacks:
Special Qualities: Living Construct Traits DR 4/adamantine
Saves: Fort +9 Ref +4 Will +4
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 8, and Cha 8
Skills: Climb +15 Jump +15
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Expertise, Powerful Charge, Improved Damage Reduction
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: -
Language: Common

Summoned through a weapon:

Size/Type: Medium Living Construct
Hit Dice: 14d8+70 (+1d8+4/summoner level above fourteen)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+4 mithral plating, +1 buckler)
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+18
Attack: Adamantine Greathammer +18 melee (2d6+10)
Full Attack: Adamantine Greathammer +18/+13/+8 melee (2d6+10)
Space/Reach: 5/5
Special Attacks:
Special Qualities: Living Construct Traits
Saves: Fort +9 Ref +4 Will +4
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 8, and Cha 8
Skills: Climb +15 Jump +15
Feats: Power Attack, Powerful Charge, Improved Sunder, Cleave, Shock Trooper
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: -
Language: Common

Summoned through something else:

Size/Type: Medium Living Construct
Hit Dice: 14d8+70 (+1d8+4/summoner level above fourteen)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (+2 composite plating)
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+18
Attack: +2 Battlefist +19 (2d6+8)
Full Attack: battlefist +16/+16 (2d6+8), Bite +16 (1d6+6), Spikes +18 (1d6+6)
Space/Reach: 5/5
Special Attacks:
Special Qualities: Living Construct Traits
Saves: Fort +9 Ref +4 Will +4
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 8, and Cha 8
Skills: Climb +15 Jump +15
Feats: Second Slam, Improved natural Attack (slam) Spiked body, Jaws of death, Multiattack
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: -
Language: Common


Channel: Channeling the Spirit of Steel makes the summoner not neet to eat, breathe, or sleep for the duration of the channeling. Any metallic armor or shield they are wearing or carrying has it's armor or shield bonus increase by +4, and any weapon gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls. All allies within thirty feet wearing metal armor or shields increase their armor or shield bonus by +2, and those wielding metal weapons gain +1 attack and damage rolls with that weapon.


Spirit of death: At sixteenth level, you call a powerful undead to slay your foes. The spirit of death cannot be summoned during the daytime, or within the area of a daylight spell. This creature appears as a powerful armored vampire, though their special abilities are limited. Treat is as a vampire warrior of your level. They have a base speed of 30 feet, and an AC of 27 (+2 dex, +7 +2 breastplate, +6 natural), DR 10/Silver and magic, and fast healing 5. Treat it as having the improved grapple feat. It has a 1d6 slam, and the blood drain and energy drain special abilities of a vampire, though he does not create spawn. It also has the spider climb, turn resistance, and cold and elecric resistance 10 of a vampire. It's ability scores are as follows: str 24, dex 18, con-, int 12, wis 12, and cha 14. The Spirit of Death has all the special vulnerabilities of a vampire, and summoning him is considered an evil act. He speaks common and undercommon.

Spirits of Good and Evil: At level eighteen, a summoner chooses to summon either a powerful spirit of good and righteousness, or a terrifying demon of destruction and evil. Oddly enough, the two spirits are closely tied in power.

Spirit of Good

Size/Type: Medium Outsider
Hit Dice: 18d8+90 (+1d8+5/summoner level above 18)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft, Fly 60 (good)
Armor Class: 28 (+2 Dex, +6 natural, +10 holy bonus)
Base Attack/Grapple:+18/+21
Attack: Holy greatsword +24 melee (2d6+11+2d6)
Full Attack: Holy greatsword +24/19/+14/+9 melee (2d6+14+2d6)
Space/Reach: 5/5
Special Attacks: Touch of Light
Special Qualities: DR 10/evil
Saves: Fort +16 Ref +13 Will +16
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20
Skills: Bluff +26, Concentration +26, Diplomacy +26, Handle Animal +26, Heal +26, Intimidate +26, Knowledge (Religion) +26, Knowledge (The Planes) +26, Knowledge (Arcana) +26, Listen +26, Sense Motive +26, Spellcraft +26, Spot +26.
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Whirlwind Attack, Power attack
Alignment:Neutral good
Advancement:-
Language:Celestial

Touch of Light: A Spirit of Good can cast Heal and Aura of good as a spell-like ability 3/day with a range of touch, with a caster level equal to it's HD.

Channel:Channeling the spirit of Good gives the summoner a +5 holy bonus to AC, a +2 holy bonus to all skill checks, saves, and a +1 holy bonus to attack and damage rolls. It also lets him use cure critical wounds as a cleric of his summoner level 3/day. All allies within thirty feet gain a +1 holy bonus to AC, skill checks, saves, attack and damage rolls.


Spirit of Evil:

Size/Type: Medium Outsider
Hit Dice: 18d8+90 (+1d8+5/summoner level above 18)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft, Fly 60 (good)
Armor Class: 30 (+2 Dex, +8 natural, +10 profane bonus)
Base Attack/Grapple:+18/+21
Attack: +5 unholy greatsword +20 melee (2d6+11+2d6)
Full Attack: +5 unholy greatsword +23/18/+13/+8 melee (2d6+14+2d6)
Space/Reach: 5/5
Special Attacks: Touch of Darkness
Special Qualities: DR 10/good
Saves: Fort +16 Ref +13 Will +16
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20
Skills: Bluff +26, Concentration +26, Diplomacy +26, Handle Animal +26, Heal +26, Intimidate +26, Knowledge (Religion) +26, Knowledge (The Planes) +26, Knowledge (Arcana) +26, Listen +26, Sense Motive +26, Spellcraft +26, Spot +26.
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Whirlwind Attack, Power attack
Alignment:Neutral Evil
Advancement:-
Language:Abyssal and infernal

Touch of Darkeness: A Spirit of Evil can cast Harm and Aura of Evil as a spell-like ability at will with a range of touch, with a caster level equal to it's HD.

Channel:Channeling the spirit of Evil gives the summoner a +5 Profane bonus to AC, a +2 profane bonus to all skill checks and saves, and a +1 profane bonus to attack and damage rolls. It also lets him use inflict critical wounds as a cleric of his summoner level 3/day. All allies within thirty feet gain a +1 profane bonus to AC, skill checks, saves, attack and damage rolls.




Spirit of ancients: You summon a true dragon, of a type and color chosen by you at the time of casting. It has HD equal to your summoner level, and is always of an appropriate size and age category for it's HD.

Summoner's Epiphany: At twentieth level, a summoner's summons no longer have a duration.
------------------------------------------------------------

Trodon
2009-09-12, 11:46 PM
This is awesome. I would love to play this in a game sometime, and you should put Spirit of ancients on the table.

Godskook
2009-09-13, 12:06 AM
This is awesome-sauce, but a lot of things need expounding on.

1)Exactly how many spirits do you get?

2)How much 'element' is needed to summon an elemental?

3)Spirit of death either needs a non-evil counterpart or needs to be re-flavored for a non-alignment specific. The class isn't flavored as evil, and shouldn't be blatantly better for an evil character.

Kuma Kode
2009-09-13, 12:47 AM
3)Spirit of death either needs a non-evil counterpart or needs to be re-flavored for a non-alignment specific. The class isn't flavored as evil, and shouldn't be blatantly better for an evil character.

Maybe make Deathless, from Book of Exalted Deeds, an option?

Eagle
2009-09-13, 04:39 AM
This class is just ridiculous. The entire thing is based on DM-fiat. In addition to typos and vague language ("twice their class level plus their charisma modifier") it can suddenly do nothing whenever the DM feels like it, such as if the DM feels that the summon has been 'misused' or if they decide the player's not in an appropriate environment. I mean seriously:


You may suggest to your summons what to do with their feats and abilities as they level up and grow in power, but there's no guarantee they will listen to your advice.

Is this a PC class or a plot device?

Other things missing: Hit Dice, proficiencies, skill points, and class skills. And any kind of justification on why it should have 3/4 BAB.

The language is vague throughout, which lends itself to several abuses. At 1st level, apparently, a summoner at the bottom of the ocean with a candle burning in a bottle can summon a fire elemental. Although it's not exactly clear what you summon, either. An elemental of what size? I know how many Hit Dice it has, but does it advance normally, or are these like animal companion or special mount Hit Dice that don't actually advance the creature?

How do you communicate these 'simple concepts', especially if you're in an environment where they can't hear you? Magic? Telepathy? If the latter, why only simple concepts? Also, what's up with no water elementals in the desert for no discernable reason? What if you're, say, next to an oasis?

Other mechanics missing: what action is it to summon, does it provoke attack of opportunity, what kind of ability is it, what happens if it leaves the radius, etc. Also, why does it have such a weird range? Why not just use short range or something?

Interesting idea, but even if the mechanics were nailed down it's still a one-trick pony. This might work better as the Conjuration-esque spontaneous arcanist, a la dread necromancer or warmage. That would mean these neat summonses are on top of full arcane spellcasting, which would be a bit more reasonable.

Kuma Kode
2009-09-13, 04:56 AM
The entire thing is based on DM-fiat... it can suddenly do nothing whenever the DM feels like it, such as if the DM feels that the summon has been 'misused' or if they decide the player's not in an appropriate environment.

Paladins. They lose nearly all class features if the DM decides any particular action they've taken is evil. So do clerics, actually, but DMs screwing paladins is much more common.

But yeah, the class is missing some necessary stats.

I'm assuming that because they lack normal casting, they'll have either a d6 or a d8, but maybe not.

Are the summons dismissable? If you summon one in battle, dismiss it (or the summon ends), and summon it again soon after, is it fully healed or does the damage carry over? I would suggest the damage carry over to prevent a dismiss/resummon full-heal trick. Since it seems there's no use limit to the summoning, it needs to be kept in check by damage so the summoner runs out of resources like all the other players do.

You may also want to organize the base monster stats into stat blocks, with rules for gaining power as the summoner levels like the druid's animal companion table. If that was done, you may actually just have "New Summons" and allow the summoner to pick which spirits they want to be able to summon as they level.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 12:57 PM
This class is just ridiculous. The entire thing is based on DM-fiat. In addition to typos and vague language ("twice their class level plus their charisma modifier") it can suddenly do nothing whenever the DM feels like it, such as if the DM feels that the summon has been 'misused' or if they decide the player's not in an appropriate environment. I mean seriously:



Is this a PC class or a plot device?

...Or I could actually expect DMs to keep their players from abusing their powers? You know, for a change?

I don't see how twice your class level plus you charisma modifier is vague.

The clause was put there to prevent players from using their summons as 'disposable'. If you use the spirit of the beast to check for traps by throwing him down a hallway and seeing if he dies, then he's not going top be particularly willing to comeback. Also, the 'if attacked' clause is so players don't use the summoner as an XP farm.


Other things missing: Hit Dice, proficiencies, skill points, and class skills. And any kind of justification on why it should have 3/4 BAB.

As already said, this is the BAREST of bare bones. I had to post it to keep my work, and I fully intend to finish giving it it's necessities today.


The language is vague throughout, which lends itself to several abuses. At 1st level, apparently, a summoner at the bottom of the ocean with a candle burning in a bottle can summon a fire elemental. Although it's not exactly clear what you summon, either. An elemental of what size? I know how many Hit Dice it has, but does it advance normally, or are these like animal companion or special mount Hit Dice that don't actually advance the creature?

Except you can't, because a fire elemental can't enter any non-flammable liquid.

I put that in as a flavor thing, so you could you know, have a raw embodyment of stone pull itself out of the stone floor and strike at your foes. I mentioned it advances normally. I also said, specifically. It's small, and grows when it's HD would normally make it do so.


How do you communicate these 'simple concepts', especially if you're in an environment where they can't hear you? Magic? Telepathy? If the latter, why only simple concepts? Also, what's up with no water elementals in the desert for no discernable reason? What if you're, say, next to an oasis?

It's more like an empahic link. I guess I should mention that.

If they're next to an oasis, then yes, that would work, but an oasis isn't the middle of the desert, is it?


Other mechanics missing: what action is it to summon, does it provoke attack of opportunity, what kind of ability is it, what happens if it leaves the radius, etc. Also, why does it have such a weird range? Why not just use short range or something?

It's all there, in the 'summons' entry. Full round action, I forgot to put if it provokes, it's supernatural, the radius is only for the summoning, it's free to go wherever after that. Should I put a cap on that? I don't think any other summons have distance caps, but I'm not sure.


Interesting idea, but even if the mechanics were nailed down it's still a one-trick pony. This might work better as the Conjuration-esque spontaneous arcanist, a la dread necromancer or warmage. That would mean these neat summonses are on top of full arcane spellcasting, which would be a bit more reasonable.

The entire idea was to get away from core summoning, because you can just abuse those poor beasties over and over with no ramafications.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 01:25 PM
This is awesome-sauce, but a lot of things need expounding on.

1)Exactly how many spirits do you get?

2)How much 'element' is needed to summon an elemental?

3)Spirit of death either needs a non-evil counterpart or needs to be re-flavored for a non-alignment specific. The class isn't flavored as evil, and shouldn't be blatantly better for an evil character.

1) At 20th level, you can summon ten different spirits. Eleven if you count the horse.

2) Any sizable amount. Say, you could summon a fire elemental out of a campfire, but a candle would probably be too small.

3) Good point. I'm not sure what to counter it with, though. Deathless are a decent suggestion, but they share too much flavor to be real opposites. I'd probably make it a 'spirit of life' and have it be a treant or something of the like.

Eagle
2009-09-13, 01:33 PM
(2 x class level) + Cha vs 2 x (class level + Cha)

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 01:33 PM
Paladins. They lose nearly all class features if the DM decides any particular action they've taken is evil. So do clerics, actually, but DMs screwing paladins is much more common.

And this is even less drastic, as a summoner only loses acess to one summon and only if they really abuse it.


But yeah, the class is missing some necessary stats.

I'm working on it, I promise.


I'm assuming that because they lack normal casting, they'll have either a d6 or a d8, but maybe not. I was going to go with D8, actually.


Are the summons dismissable? If you summon one in battle, dismiss it (or the summon ends), and summon it again soon after, is it fully healed or does the damage carry over? I would suggest the damage carry over to prevent a dismiss/resummon full-heal trick. Since it seems there's no use limit to the summoning, it needs to be kept in check by damage so the summoner runs out of resources like all the other players do.

I do need to include a rule about that. I'm thinking they heal every morning, and maybe I should give the summoner some sort of LoH ability, just for his summons?


You may also want to organize the base monster stats into stat blocks, with rules for gaining power as the summoner levels like the druid's animal companion table. If that was done, you may actually just have "New Summons" and allow the summoner to pick which spirits they want to be able to summon as they level.

True. As said, this is bare bones. Please bear with me as I try to make this into something reasonable. I try to put this as they just gain HD of their creature type every time the summoner levels. Critters that advance in size do so when their HD reaches the right numbers.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 01:35 PM
(2 x class level) + Cha vs 2 x (class level + Cha)

Well, if you follow the fundamental order of math, you get the first one. I'll clarfiy, however. I just realized not everyone knows the rules on that one.

Eagle
2009-09-13, 02:14 PM
And this is even less drastic, as a summoner only loses acess to one summon and only if they really abuse it.

But it's entirely up to the DM when the summoner has "abused" it! Why would you possibly want to make a class that's MORE like the paladin instead of LESS like it?! There's a reason that the paladin is an incredible headache in-game for DMs and players alike, and that's the code of conduct! Just try to imagine, in a real everyday game, the arguments that would INEVITABLY break out if the DM decided to try to remove a summon! The player would argue about how he didn't abuse it, and if the DM did win the argument he'd look like an enormous jerk to the other players for removing the summoner's class features! If there's one lesson to learn from the paladin, it's to never ever EVER leave class mechanics and level-appropriate ability distribution up to the DM!

Godskook
2009-09-13, 02:31 PM
1) At 20th level, you can summon ten different spirits. Eleven if you count the horse.

I assume you mean 11, 12 if you count the horse. So, if I summon a fire elemental one day, and air elemental the next, it is the same spirit being summoned?


2) Any sizable amount. Say, you could summon a fire elemental out of a campfire, but a candle would probably be too small.

So approximately, 1 gallon by volume? Would spells like fireball work if a readied action is used?


3) Good point. I'm not sure what to counter it with, though. Deathless are a decent suggestion, but they share too much flavor to be real opposites. I'd probably make it a 'spirit of life' and have it be a treant or something of the like.

You could switch it out with something else entirely. Like 'spirit of the swarm'.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 02:41 PM
But it's entirely up to the DM when the summoner has "abused" it! Why would you possibly want to make a class that's MORE like the paladin instead of LESS like it?! There's a reason that the paladin is an incredible headache in-game for DMs and players alike, and that's the code of conduct! Just try to imagine, in a real everyday game, the arguments that would INEVITABLY break out if the DM decided to try to remove a summon! The player would argue about how he didn't abuse it, and if the DM did win the argument he'd look like an enormous jerk to the other players for removing the summoner's class features! If there's one lesson to learn from the paladin, it's to never ever EVER leave class mechanics and level-appropriate ability distribution up to the DM!

So, you're saying that an ancient spirit, who has the option of coming or not, is going to decide to show up when called for by a summoner that, last time it served him faithfully, threw him into a pit full of orcs and ran off? Even unintelligent spirits are going to learn 'Hey, this guy isn't really someone I wanna keep risking my life for'.

The point is not that the DM needs to pull off a couple of these before the player learns, it's that the player needs to know these are not automatically his, and if he doesn't respect the spirits, next time you need an ogre in that hallway, you might just be screwed.

WITHOUT this measure, the summons are little more than tools, and the summoner could even start up an infinite XP farm, summoning beasties, having the party kill it, and repeat.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 02:47 PM
I assume you mean 11, 12 if you count the horse. So, if I summon a fire elemental one day, and air elemental the next, it is the same spirit being summoned?

Oops. Each elemental is a different spirit. But you summon the same spirit of each type. So, you summon an earth elemental, and it gets hit with a rod of wonder to turn it permanently green, it's coming back green next time.


So approximately, 1 gallon by volume? Would spells like fireball work if a readied action is used?

Most campfire's I've had aren't THAT big. But that's a good qualifier to use.

And I think that would work. Or you could just light something on fire WITH a fireball and use that.


You could switch it out with something else entirely. Like 'spirit of the swarm'.

I alwready got a vermin summon. Maybe I should just scrap the undead and make it a tendrilicious.

Boci
2009-09-13, 02:55 PM
So, you're saying that an ancient spirit, who has the option of coming or not, is going to decide to show up when called for by a summoner that, last time it served him faithfully, threw him into a pit full of orcs and ran off? Even unintelligent spirits are going to learn 'Hey, this guy isn't really someone I wanna keep risking my life for'.

The point is not that the DM needs to pull off a couple of these before the player learns, it's that the player needs to know these are not automatically his, and if he doesn't respect the spirits, next time you need an ogre in that hallway, you might just be screwed.

WITHOUT this measure, the summons are little more than tools, and the summoner could even start up an infinite XP farm, summoning beasties, having the party kill it, and repeat.

I can understand your point, but I also understand Eagle's. Think about it: the DM can take a way any PCs powers. The fighter can be hit by a spell and forget his feats, the wizard can enter a dead zone, but we only hear about it happening to paladins. That because a method of removing the class's abilities was mentioned in its description.

I understand you want a summoner to actually respect the spirits, but I think eagle is saying that you should leave that to the DM to short out if such a problem arises. Same way he'd deal with unnessisary muder of peasants. This has role play potential since the summoner now has two paths: those who exploit the spirits, and those who win their trust and loyalty. The latter could be awarded certain advantages by the DM.
As for the XP loop, just mention that you do not get XP for killing spirits you summoned yourself, or for ones summoned by your allies.

Godskook
2009-09-13, 03:32 PM
Oops. Each elemental is a different spirit. But you summon the same spirit of each type. So, you summon an earth elemental, and it gets hit with a rod of wonder to turn it permanently green, it's coming back green next time.

Ok, so expanding on this, if I summon a dire bear one day, and a dire lion the next, are they the same 'spirit', or different 'spirits' that I only have access to one of at a time, as the elementals.

Honestly, it'd make sense if the 'spirits' could take the multiple forms, and it would be far more practical, as you've already got 11 different 'spirits', and it'd be even harder to roleplay even 2 different personalities per spirit.

Also, I'd like to see some ability to allow some of these spirits to remain out for non-combat amounts of time. Maybe something like 'at level 5, and at every 5 levels thereafter(max of 4), you may retain one spirit out indefinitely'. This guy's a one-trick pony(i.e., highly predictable) and thus, it isn't hard to figure out what he's going to do in combat. Honestly, he probably needs this for times when his group is outnumbered or ambushed. Otherwise:

Summoner: "I summon a spirit."
DM: "You provoke 5 AoO, and your summon fails."
Summoner: "I take a 5' step and attempt another summon."
DM: "Yeah, you're dead."

Also, I just noticed that you're only allowed one summon out at a time, and that's....kinda pokemon-ish. Look up the malconvoker as to how many/powerful monsters a summoner can get. For a class that's got no another class features outside of his summons, he'll need more than 1 out at a time to be competitive. SM IX becomes available at L17, and allows you to summon a 24 HD elemental, among other things. That's a CR of 11 by itself. You're guy can't do that till L24, and unlike the wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid, you can only maintain one per encounter, and it is your entire schtick. The longevity of the class is nice, but the potency needs something. I think adding additional 'temp slots' and a couple 'semi-permenant' slots would go a ways towards improving things.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 03:56 PM
Ok, so expanding on this, if I summon a dire bear one day, and a dire lion the next, are they the same 'spirit', or different 'spirits' that I only have access to one of at a time, as the elementals.

Honestly, it'd make sense if the 'spirits' could take the multiple forms, and it would be far more practical, as you've already got 11 different 'spirits', and it'd be even harder to roleplay even 2 different personalities per spirit.

Also, I'd like to see some ability to allow some of these spirits to remain out for non-combat amounts of time. Maybe something like 'at level 5, and at every 5 levels thereafter(max of 4), you may retain one spirit out indefinitely'. This guy's a one-trick pony(i.e., highly predictable) and thus, it isn't hard to figure out what he's going to do in combat. Honestly, he probably needs this for times when his group is outnumbered or ambushed. Otherwise:

Summoner: "I summon a spirit."
DM: "You provoke 5 AoO, and your summon fails."
Summoner: "I take a 5' step and attempt another summon."
DM: "Yeah, you're dead."

Also, I just noticed that you're only allowed one summon out at a time, and that's....kinda pokemon-ish. Look up the malconvoker as to how many/powerful monsters a summoner can get. For a class that's got no another class features outside of his summons, he'll need more than 1 out at a time to be competitive. SM IX becomes available at L17, and allows you to summon a 24 HD elemental, among other things. That's a CR of 11 by itself. You're guy can't do that till L24, and unlike the wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid, you can only maintain one per encounter, and it is your entire schtick. The longevity of the class is nice, but the potency needs something. I think adding additional 'temp slots' and a couple 'semi-permenant' slots would go a ways towards improving things.

The spirits do take multiple forms. You're only summoning one Beast spirit, but it's taking on different forms depending one where you are. The only exception to this is that you're summonign four speperate elemental spirits.

One out at a time was a design feature. A big problem with summoning lots of monsters is that your turn takes FOREVER, and you run the risk of not only overshadowing the fighter, but EVERY OTHER PLAYER at the table.

If it's not fixable any other way, how about every three-five levels, you get the ability to have another summon out at a time, with a capstone of summons no longer having durations. Any other Ideas?

Eagle
2009-09-13, 04:18 PM
I also think it's worth pointing out that at the higher levels (heck, at the LOWER levels, even) this guy is not going to be contributing to combat in any meaningful way. I mean, his capstone for slugging it out through 20 levels of the class is to summon a 20 HD true dragon. Of course, he can only have one at a time. Now, you can choose whichever kind you want, so let's go with the first one I see flippling through the Monster Manual, which happens to be a Black Dragon. A 20 HD Black Dragon is of adult age, and has a challenge rating of approximately 11-12.

Now how is a CR 12 dragon possibly going to contribute to combat in ANY capacity at 20th level?! When wizards are flinging around 8th and 9th level spells like they're candy and druids are summoning elder elementals with summon nature's ally IX without the strange cap on summons that the SUMMONER has.

Hit Dice do not scale proportionately with Challenge Rating, which means that if you use Hit Dice as the cap, the summons are pretty much always spectacularly underpowered.

And let's not forget that this is the ONLY THING that the summoner can do! If his most powerful summon dies, or if the DM waves his hand and takes it away, the summoner is literally doing NOTHING. I cannot imagine a single player that would actually take this class over, say, malconvoker or druid for the same character concept. Because there's nothing here. There's a very limited, curiously specific class feature which is honestly not that good, and vague to boot. And that's it. The entire class is built around the one mechanic, which pretty much sucks.

Not to mention the lack of variety. Every single character you run through this class is going to turn out pretty much exactly the same at the end. They can all summon a black pudding, a vampire death knight, and so on. Every single base class I can think of has more flexibility than this. A base class needs to be able to accomodate many different kinds of characters. This class supports exactly one progression, and it doesn't even work inside of the summoning rules that already exist, which means that the massive support system for magic items, spells, prestige classes that are made for summoners do absolutely zip for this class.

Godskook
2009-09-13, 04:19 PM
The spirits do take multiple forms. You're only summoning one Beast spirit, but it's taking on different forms depending one where you are. The only exception to this is that you're summonign four speperate elemental spirits.

Ah, I see. So, we're tracking 15 total different personalities, right? 4 elementals, 1 wandering spirit, and 10 other spirits. Has the potential for awesome.


One out at a time was a design feature. A big problem with summoning lots of monsters is that your turn takes FOREVER, and you run the risk of not only overshadowing the fighter, but
EVERY OTHER PLAYER at the table.

You won't overshadow the full casters, since you never get access to spells outside of summons and a rare few others(like heal, I believe). You can't buff, debuff, have limited battlefield control and limited healing.

You won't overshadow the skillmonkey as long as skill acquisition is kept reasonable, and that's not a balance issue with 'how many' since you only need the relevantly trained one out.

The fighter, on the other hand, is more an issue with the fighter sucking than anything else.

I'll admit, there is the 'takes too much of the game time for his own turn' issue, but that's inherent with the concept of a summoner in pretty much all games(even Guild Wars necromancer minion-masters took additional time and effort to run).


If it's not fixable any other way, how about every three-five levels, you get the ability to have another summon out at a time, with a capstone of summons no longer having durations. Any other Ideas?

Another idea is to add in wild-shape-like abilities to the class. A 'possession' if you will, or better, 'channeling'. If you 'channel' an elemental, you gain a movement type based on the elemental. If you 'channel' the dragon, you gain a breath weapon. If you 'channel' the beast, you get moderate bonuses(+2 to stats, enhanced senses, something like that). That'd give you something else to do with your spirits other than summoning them. Kind of a Binder-esque feel to it, minus the weird arguing.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 04:30 PM
I also think it's worth pointing out that at the higher levels (heck, at the LOWER levels, even) this guy is not going to be contributing to combat in any meaningful way. I mean, his capstone for slugging it out through 20 levels of the class is to summon a 20 HD true dragon. Of course, he can only have one at a time. Now, you can choose whichever kind you want, so let's go with the first one I see flippling through the Monster Manual, which happens to be a Black Dragon. A 20 HD Black Dragon is of adult age, and has a challenge rating of approximately 11-12.

Now how is a CR 12 dragon possibly going to contribute to combat in ANY capacity at 20th level?! When wizards are flinging around 8th and 9th level spells like they're candy and druids are summoning elder elementals with summon nature's ally IX without the strange cap on summons that the SUMMONER has.

Hit Dice do not scale proportionately with Challenge Rating, which means that if you use Hit Dice as the cap, the summons are pretty much always spectacularly underpowered.

And let's not forget that this is the ONLY THING that the summoner can do! If his most powerful summon dies, or if the DM waves his hand and takes it away, the summoner is literally doing NOTHING. I cannot imagine a single player that would actually take this class over, say, malconvoker or druid for the same character concept. Because there's nothing here. There's a very limited, curiously specific class feature which is honestly not that good, and vague to boot. And that's it. The entire class is built around the one mechanic, which pretty much sucks.

Not to mention the lack of variety. Every single character you run through this class is going to turn out pretty much exactly the same at the end. They can all summon a black pudding, a vampire death knight, and so on. Every single base class I can think of has more flexibility than this. A base class needs to be able to accomodate many different kinds of characters. This class supports exactly one progression, and it doesn't even work inside of the summoning rules that already exist, which means that the massive support system for magic items, spells, prestige classes that are made for summoners do absolutely zip for this class.

You realize that in all the time you spent telling me I just wasted my last two days, You could have, you know, said something actually suggests how to fix this? Look. I KNOW this class is not the best out there. That's why I'm HERE, not just trotting off to my DM with this. I'm here to fix this, make it better, make it more fun. So please, if you want to help, contribute. Tell me what to do to fix the problems you pointed out, instead of just pointing them out.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 04:39 PM
Ah, I see. So, we're tracking 15 total different personalities, right? 4 elementals, 1 wandering spirit, and 10 other spirits. Has the potential for awesome.

You won't overshadow the full casters, since you never get access to spells outside of summons and a rare few others(like heal, I believe). You can't buff, debuff, have limited battlefield control and limited healing.

You won't overshadow the skillmonkey as long as skill acquisition is kept reasonable, and that's not a balance issue with 'how many' since you only need the relevantly trained one out.

The fighter, on the other hand, is more an issue with the fighter sucking than anything else.

I'll admit, there is the 'takes too much of the game time for his own turn' issue, but that's inherent with the concept of a summoner in pretty much all games(even Guild Wars necromancer minion-masters took additional time and effort to run).

*Sigh* I suppose there's no avoiding it. Do think it would be better if I had one every three levels, or one every four?


Another idea is to add in wild-shape-like abilities to the class. A 'possession' if you will, or better, 'channeling'. If you 'channel' an elemental, you gain a movement type based on the elemental. If you 'channel' the dragon, you gain a breath weapon. If you 'channel' the beast, you get moderate bonuses(+2 to stats, enhanced senses, something like that). That'd give you something else to do with your spirits other than summoning them. Kind of a Binder-esque feel to it, minus the weird arguing.

An intriguing mechanic. I'm not sure exactly how to work it, though. Would you gain it's abilites? Would you simply transform into it? How many abilities should this grant? How much should the summon influence you?

Eagle
2009-09-13, 04:59 PM
You realize that in all the time you spent telling me I just wasted my last two days, You could have, you know, said something actually suggests how to fix this? Look. I KNOW this class is not the best out there. That's why I'm HERE, not just trotting off to my DM with this. I'm here to fix this, make it better, make it more fun. So please, if you want to help, contribute. Tell me what to do to fix the problems you pointed out, instead of just pointing them out.

Good. Let's recap:

Your problems with summoning as it exists right now:

• You don't want people to eat up too much real time at the table with their summons' actions.
• You don't want to overshadow other characters with your summons.
• You don't want people to abuse their summons or use them for trivial things.

And one that you didn't think of but that needs to be in there because it screws up every conjuration build ever

• You don't want people to waste time at the table advancing monsters

This is how you're going to fix it. To start with, you give it full spellcasting with an absurdly limited spell list, presumably the summon monster spells, the summon nature's ally spells, the planar binding spells, and the planar ally spells. And maybe give it some transmutations to buff his summons or something. Not too many spells per day of each level certainly, because this class is obviously focused around the class features. Spontaneous spellcasting with new spell levels at the same time as a cleric or druid or wizard so that he can keep up with the big boys.

Then he gets the Summon class feature. Since we want to work inside of the rules instead of creating new rules, you give him the monster special ability Summon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#summon). Come up with a list of creatures that's always a CR or two ahead of what summon monster can provide. Whatever you want, elementals, oozes, etc. If you really want, for each monster you put a limitation on it.

For example:

{table=head]Esper|Challenge Rating|Available Level|Special Requirement|Prerequisite
Earth Elemental, Small|1|1|Must be standing on the ground|None
Giant Eagle|3|4|Must be in an open air area|None
Earth Elemental, Medium|3|4|Must be standing on the ground|Earth Elemental, Small
Black Pudding|7|9|Must be in a filthy environment, such as a sewer|None[/table]

With a big enough list, every level you can let the summoner pick two or three of them which he qualifies for. Then he can try to summon them as much as he wants, just like a devil or demon or something, with a percentile chance. It's a mechanic that already exists, which makes it a lot more palatable. Don't worry about advancing these things, because he's always getting up to date monsters. You can put in a clause about if a particular esper dies, how he needs to wait a while before summoning it again.

Now let's take a look. For trivial stuff you have summoning just like a druid or wizard to check for traps, make planar binds, that kind of thing. It also lets him go into classes like malconvoker, alienist, and so on. In addition, things like Augment Summoning apply to his Summon class feature as well, since it works exactly like a summon monster spell. Which means he can actually make use of the ton of sourcebooks out there.

Now for the tricky part, the DM fiat. If you absolutely have to have this, just have the summoner make opposed Charisma checks or Diplomacy checks or some crap to get the summon to perform an action against its nature. So if you want your pet astral deva to go beat up demons, no problem. If you want your pet astral deva to fetch you a corn dog, you'd better start negotiating. None of that removing summons for "abusing" them stuff, they just won't do it period. If you want disposable minions, you have your actual spells. The summons are your big guns, and as long as you always have some available that are about at your own Challenge Rating -2 to call in, you'll always be able to contribute in battle. You still won't be overshadowing anybody except the fighter, but that's obviously a problem with the fighter, not with the summoner.

You won't be wasting time at the table, because the stats come straight out of the book instead of advancing the Hit Dice. You won't have a legion or anything, because you need to actually roll to summon them in there. Put in a clause that if you fail to summon a given esper you have to wait a minute before trying again. As for the percentile, make lower level espers easier to summon that higher level, obviously. And as long as you have a big enough library to pick from, every summoner is going to wind up looking different because they'll have different espers to pick from in every battle.

Godskook
2009-09-13, 05:09 PM
*Sigh* I suppose there's no avoiding it. Do think it would be better if I had one every three levels, or one every four?

If it were me, I'd go:
-1 permanent slot for every 5 levels.
-1 additional temp slot at second level, and an additional temp slot at 7 and 13.

That's a grand total of 7 summons that he can have out at once, and it'd mean that a summoner spends his first 3 rounds of combat summoning. The goal now is to give him additional class features such that he has an option worth not summoning for. Not phenomenal, but powerful enough to be worth a turn doing(and hitting things should not be it).


An intriguing mechanic. I'm not sure exactly how to work it, though. Would you gain it's abilites? Would you simply transform into it? How many abilities should this grant? How much should the summon influence you?

1.It'd prevent you from summoning that creature normally, since you've 'channeled' its power into your own character. This is a voluntary function of the spirits, and in some ways, they prefer it(you can't send a 'channeled' spirit to its death the same way you can a summoned one).
2.You could make it a Bleach-like effect, like the hollow/zanpakutou are both a 'part' of Ichigo, but less so the hollow and moreso the zanpakutou. The 'spirits' aren't so much other creatures as they are segments of the summoner's psyche made manifest.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 05:30 PM
Good. Let's recap:

Your problems with summoning as it exists right now:

• You don't want people to eat up too much real time at the table with their summons' actions.
• You don't want to overshadow other characters with your summons.
• You don't want people to abuse their summons or use them for trivial things.

And one that you didn't think of but that needs to be in there because it screws up every conjuration build ever

• You don't want people to waste time at the table advancing monsters

This is how you're going to fix it. To start with, you give it full spellcasting with an absurdly limited spell list, presumably the summon monster spells, the summon nature's ally spells, the planar binding spells, and the planar ally spells. And maybe give it some transmutations to buff his summons or something. Not too many spells per day of each level certainly, because this class is obviously focused around the class features. Spontaneous spellcasting with new spell levels at the same time as a cleric or druid or wizard so that he can keep up with the big boys.

Then he gets the Summon class feature. Since we want to work inside of the rules instead of creating new rules, you give him the monster special ability Summon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#summon). Come up with a list of creatures that's always a CR or two ahead of what summon monster can provide. Whatever you want, elementals, oozes, etc. If you really want, for each monster you put a limitation on it.

For example:

{table=head]Esper|Challenge Rating|Available Level|Special Requirement|Prerequisite
Earth Elemental, Small|1|1|Must be standing on the ground|None
Giant Eagle|3|4|Must be in an open air area|None
Earth Elemental, Medium|3|4|Must be standing on the ground|Earth Elemental, Small
Black Pudding|7|9|Must be in a filthy environment, such as a sewer|None[/table]

With a big enough list, every level you can let the summoner pick two or three of them which he qualifies for. Then he can try to summon them as much as he wants, just like a devil or demon or something, with a percentile chance. It's a mechanic that already exists, which makes it a lot more palatable. Don't worry about advancing these things, because he's always getting up to date monsters. You can put in a clause about if a particular esper dies, how he needs to wait a while before summoning it again.

Now let's take a look. For trivial stuff you have summoning just like a druid or wizard to check for traps, make planar binds, that kind of thing. It also lets him go into classes like malconvoker, alienist, and so on. In addition, things like Augment Summoning apply to his Summon class feature as well, since it works exactly like a summon monster spell. Which means he can actually make use of the ton of sourcebooks out there.

Now for the tricky part, the DM fiat. If you absolutely have to have this, just have the summoner make opposed Charisma checks or Diplomacy checks or some crap to get the summon to perform an action against its nature. So if you want your pet astral deva to go beat up demons, no problem. If you want your pet astral deva to fetch you a corn dog, you'd better start negotiating. None of that removing summons for "abusing" them stuff, they just won't do it period. If you want disposable minions, you have your actual spells. The summons are your big guns, and as long as you always have some available that are about at your own Challenge Rating -2 to call in, you'll always be able to contribute in battle. You still won't be overshadowing anybody except the fighter, but that's obviously a problem with the fighter, not with the summoner.

You won't be wasting time at the table, because the stats come straight out of the book instead of advancing the Hit Dice. You won't have a legion or anything, because you need to actually roll to summon them in there. Put in a clause that if you fail to summon a given esper you have to wait a minute before trying again. As for the percentile, make lower level espers easier to summon that higher level, obviously. And as long as you have a big enough library to pick from, every summoner is going to wind up looking different because they'll have different espers to pick from in every battle.

I'd like to clarify something here. I'm not trying to make another caster. That's been done already (Check out this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95336), for example). But what I want isn't a character that feels like a druid or a wizard, or even a malconvoker. I want to make a class that feels completely different. What you're suggesting is logical, and legal, but the way it would play just makes me feel like I would be playing a druid, just having an off chance of not being able to have my animal companion, and with fewer other abilities available. I appreciate that you're being constructive, but I'd like to make this class more viable, not making a completely new one. If you have any suggestions for that, I'd love to hear them.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 05:55 PM
If it were me, I'd go:
-1 permanent slot for every 5 levels.
-1 additional temp slot at second level, and an additional temp slot at 7 and 13.

That's a grand total of 7 summons that he can have out at once, and it'd mean that a summoner spends his first 3 rounds of combat summoning. The goal now is to give him additional class features such that he has an option worth not summoning for. Not phenomenal, but powerful enough to be worth a turn doing(and hitting things should not be it).

Now that you mention it, the summoner does very little but stand there and summon. I think I should probably reduce the summoning time and give some other things he can do.

Another idea, inspiried by eagle's summon class feature, is just have every summon last an hour. Would that work instead of permanent/temp slots? It seems less confusing.


1.It'd prevent you from summoning that creature normally, since you've 'channeled' its power into your own character. This is a voluntary function of the spirits, and in some ways, they prefer it(you can't send a 'channeled' spirit to its death the same way you can a summoned one).
2.You could make it a Bleach-like effect, like the hollow/zanpakutou are both a 'part' of Ichigo, but less so the hollow and moreso the zanpakutou. The 'spirits' aren't so much other creatures as they are segments of the summoner's psyche made manifest.
That could work. But how MUCH of the summon is involved? Just a single ability? Do you completely become the summon, as in wild shape?

As for 2. The idea was they're no so much spirits as the ideas of the things themselves. The Beast is not a dead animal, it's the concept of a predator itself, given form by the summoner.

If there is more summoning going to be happening, I think there needs to be more spirits available that can serve different functions. The spirit of mischeif serves as a skillmonkey, and the spirit of steel serves as several varieties of fighter. What other sorts of roles are left unfilled?

Godskook
2009-09-13, 06:57 PM
Do you have access to the book Magic of Incarnum? Soulmelds would be a good balancing point for that, and in fact, the Totemist already has similar class features.

Zaydos
2009-09-13, 07:11 PM
How about a summon who provides buffs? Something similar to Dragon Totem Shaman or Marshal?

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 07:29 PM
Do you have access to the book Magic of Incarnum? Soulmelds would be a good balancing point for that, and in fact, the Totemist already has similar class features.

I do have access to the book, but my knowledge is extremely limited. I just got my hands on it. Should I just look up totem binds for each of these beasties?

A buff-summon sounds like a good idea. Not sure what to use for it, though. I don't know any monsters with buffing abilities off the top of my head. And if I'm making a buffing summon, I should probably give it some healing, too.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 10:12 PM
Okay, I changed some of the text in the summoning block, add 'summoning mastery' which grants you at 20th level, the ability summon as a standard action, and summon as a swift action 4/day, and the control of up to five summons at a time. I also added 'Summoner's Epiphany', which eliminates time limits on summons altogether, and made the basic measurement for summon's duration one hour.

Progress!

Godskook
2009-09-13, 10:20 PM
Okay, I changed some of the text in the summoning block, add 'summoning mastery' which grants you at 20th level, the ability summon as a standard action, and summon as a swift action 4/day, and the control of up to five summons at a time. I also added 'Summoner's Epiphany', which eliminates time limits on summons altogether, and made the basic measurement for summon's duration one hour.

Progress!

Can you condense that to a single section of text for the 'summoning mastery' ability? It is very hard to read what its doing when it is changing every other level, but the text is in completely different areas of the post.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-13, 10:49 PM
Can you condense that to a single section of text for the 'summoning mastery' ability? It is very hard to read what its doing when it is changing every other level, but the text is in completely different areas of the post.

Done. I'm aslo working on condensing the post down to a more... Manageble size.

dentrag2
2009-09-14, 07:19 AM
Right now i'm not really noticing anything the Summoner would spend feats on (But that's probably because I'm only looking at the core books.) besides Augment Summoning, and I'm not sure if that applies here. Perhaps a series of feats so that they don't have to pick up something like Toughness?

I know i like Goad from the Adventurers handbook, but that would be more of something a summon could do.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-14, 03:55 PM
Another interesting idea. I'll look into that.

But momentarily, we have a more pressing issue: How to keep the summons relevant. As Eagle pointed out, a 20 HD dragon, while impressive, has nothing on 9th level spellcasting, and even 'mundane' summoners gain more rapid advancement of HD than ours. What can be done to remedy this, without resorting to making this yet another casting class, and still maintaining a reasonable limit on character power?

dentrag2
2009-09-14, 04:00 PM
Hmm... Perhaps a summon with limited magical capabilities? Up to say, 6th level magic?

No, you don't want a caster class. Or a melee class or a skill monkey. Perhaps a series of "Auras" that grant severe bonuses at later levels for allies/summons to a range of 30 feet?

For example:
Aura of Stoneskin
Casting time: One standard action.
Duration: Instantaneous.
All creatures that the caster considers "Friendly" within the area, and any that come within the area as long as this effect is active, gain damage reduction 5/-, in addition to any damage reduction currently active. This effect does not overlap with another Aura of Stoneskin, or the spells Stoneskin or Improved Stoneskin.

Only one aura may be active at a time.

EDIT: By the way, i never understood what PEACH stands for. Care to tell me?

Admiral Squish
2009-09-14, 04:58 PM
Hmmm... Perhaps, if we were to combine this with godskook's idea about 'channeling' the summons. As in, a summoner channels a majority of the spirit, but what remains overflows, creating an aura effect related to the creature in question.

This could work...

Admiral Squish
2009-09-15, 08:38 PM
Crap. Even with a channeling option, I still need a realistic and reasonable way to advance the summons, without breaking the power curve, that keeps a summoner in the game for higher levels. Even being able to summon three or four CR 12 dragons isn't going to affect epic combat all that much.

dentrag2
2009-09-15, 09:40 PM
Crap. Even with a channeling option, I still need a realistic and reasonable way to advance the summons, without breaking the power curve, that keeps a summoner in the game for higher levels. Even being able to summon three or four CR 12 dragons isn't going to affect epic combat all that much.

Perhaps an epic monster summon as a feat?

Godskook
2009-09-15, 10:30 PM
Don't concern yourself with >L20 levels in this class just yet. If you can make it work for the first 20, there'll be a way to make it work in epic play.

Also, another idea I had for this:

Gestalt summons [spirit summon]

With this feat, you may combine two of your spirits to make a more powerful gestalt summon. Details that GK will leave to the Admiral should go here.

Augment Gestalt [spirit summon]

With this feat, you may add an additional spirit to a summons.

----------

Those, with the proper prerequisites and bonuses, would make for great upper level play.

Another spirits:

Spirit of the lycan

Admiral Squish
2009-09-15, 10:56 PM
I don't know about Lycan, that's kind of a lot of stats to transcribe. But I could see some sort of shapeshifter as the 'spirit of change'.

I didn't mean 20+, I meant like 15-20th. The mechanic lags behind at ten-ish, but it's just completely falling apart in high levels.

Gestalt summons seems like an odd/interesting idea. But, also, a lot more work than I'd like, and it would probably make the class unneccesarily complicated. I mean, I'd need a stat block for every summon, a channeling/aura effect, and a gestalt stat block for every possible combination. I mean, if you mix a huge spirit of the beast with spirit of mischeif, what happens? It'd need a whole new stat block. Maybe I could just increase the channeling/aura power level, and make it so that a 'gestalt' summon allows you to apply the channeling benefits to another summon? Maybe some special effects depending on what it is applied to? Like, spirit of mischeif on the spirit of anchients makes it's breath weapon create the effects of touch of mischeif on everything in it's area?

Godskook
2009-09-15, 11:03 PM
Gestalt wouldn't be too bad, logistically. Give each summons an 'augment' power(or powers) that originally, only you could access through 'channelling'. A gestalt summons would use the stat-block of the original and a template from each 'augment' he had on him from other spirits attached. Keeping track of the combinations would be the player's responsibilities.

Going to bed now, I'll see if I can find time to be on tommorrow for some more of my thoughts.

Godskook
2009-09-16, 10:56 AM
Ok, I've been thinking about it. Question:

Do your summons progress exactly as normal creatures do? I.e., does the dragon casts spells?

Also, taking the progression out of the hands of the player, while understandable considering the cheese that can happen(I've seen the cohort abuses), is bad for balance. Perhaps give it to them as "Spirits generally follow the desires of their master in terms of build, but will protest suggestions that gimp their ability to contribute meaningfully(read: if it means that he's functionally equivalent to a duracell, he won't do it)".

Admiral Squish
2009-09-16, 02:18 PM
Ok, I've been thinking about it. Question:

Do your summons progress exactly as normal creatures do? I.e., does the dragon casts spells?

Also, taking the progression out of the hands of the player, while understandable considering the cheese that can happen(I've seen the cohort abuses), is bad for balance. Perhaps give it to them as "Spirits generally follow the desires of their master in terms of build, but will protest suggestions that gimp their ability to contribute meaningfully(read: if it means that he's functionally equivalent to a duracell, he won't do it)".

Yes, dragons cast. Considering you get a dragon at 20th, I think that's reasonable. However, none of the creatures can take class levels, except for NPC classes, and only if they already have them. I.E, spirit of steel can keep taking warrior levels, but Mischeif can't start going into adept.

I need a way to say that in game-terms. 'The spirit will usually follow the summoner's advice, however, a spirit will refuse anything that would make it less capable of performing it's role'?

Godskook
2009-09-16, 03:07 PM
Are you taking into account that, with the extended durations, you can now start equipping gear to your creatures? I mean, WBL would suck you dry, but if you had an artificer buddy, you'd be golden.

Another idea is to add a way for your 'spirits' to gain their own xp(precedence: cohorts gain XP). Something like:


Spirits earn XP as follows:

Spirits do not count as party members when determining the party’s XP.

The spirits are awarded a pool of XP equal to their master's XP gained. This is divided evenly among them.

For every two levels of effective XP a spirit has, he may progress by one HD of his type beyond that of his master's normal limit.

This would produce +10 HD if you focused exclusively on one of the elementals, but that'd not only pigeon-hole you, but also only give you a CR ~13 threat.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-16, 03:43 PM
Are you taking into account that, with the extended durations, you can now start equipping gear to your creatures? I mean, WBL would suck you dry, but if you had an artificer buddy, you'd be golden.

Another idea is to add a way for your 'spirits' to gain their own xp(precedence: cohorts gain XP). Something like:



This would produce +10 HD if you focused exclusively on one of the elementals, but that'd not only pigeon-hole you, but also only give you a CR ~13 threat.

I don't see how this would work. If we make a 'summon' pool equal to the summoner's XP, then divide it evenly among all the summons (fourteen at 20th level), each summon would be getting next to nothing. They'd NEVER level up, and every time you got acess to asnother summon, the rate would go down even FURTHER. At first level, you kill a big boss and get 500 XP. You have four summons, so each would get 125 out of the deal. At level twelve, you kill something and get 500 XP. By then you have ten summons, and so each would get only 50.

Maybe if we had the normal levelling, and THEN put the XP pool on top of that? It would be admittably slow improvement, but it would create more powerful summons over time, maybe even enough to bring them up to speed.

And while you could start equipping them, they don't take the items with them. Nothing not mentioned in their entry, and unless you can enchant a greatclub in an hour, it'd dissapear before you could finish. If you wanted to give them items, you'd have to give it to them every time you summoned them, which is a waste of actions if you have to summon in combat. Maybe I should give them all mundane items, and the class an ability that makes all attacks made by summons have a +1 enhancement to attack and damage rolls/ four class levels.

Godskook
2009-09-16, 04:44 PM
Maybe if we had the normal levelling, and THEN put the XP pool on top of that? It would be admittably slow improvement, but it would create more powerful summons over time, maybe even enough to bring them up to speed.

1.I forgot to mention that XP was only shared by the summoned creatures, not the channeled ones or ones that simply weren't there.

2.I did specify:

"For every two levels of effective XP a spirit has, he may progress by one HD of his type beyond that of his master's normal limit."

but perhaps that wasn't clear enough.


And while you could start equipping them, they don't take the items with them. Nothing not mentioned in their entry, and unless you can enchant a greatclub in an hour, it'd dissapear before you could finish. If you wanted to give them items, you'd have to give it to them every time you summoned them, which is a waste of actions if you have to summon in combat. Maybe I should give them all mundane items, and the class an ability that makes all attacks made by summons have a +1 enhancement to attack and damage rolls/ four class levels.

You're allowed to have several out at a time, and for hours without resummoning. That alone takes care of all the logistic issues you mention, except being ambushed without a summons out, which shouldn't be often.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-16, 05:20 PM
1.I forgot to mention that XP was only shared by the summoned creatures, not the channeled ones or ones that simply weren't there.

2.I did specify:

"For every two levels of effective XP a spirit has, he may progress by one HD of his type beyond that of his master's normal limit."

but perhaps that wasn't clear enough.



You're allowed to have several out at a time, and for hours without resummoning. That alone takes care of all the logistic issues you mention, except being ambushed without a summons out, which shouldn't be often.

1)Ahh, I didn't get that part. Still, putting that as the only mothod of levelling would still be rather on the slow side. I think it should divide out evenly among all summons, and generally raise the bar of the entire class, though your way would allow for a summoner to pick a favorite or two and just work like that.

2)I got that, but again, I thought you were using the Xp as the only way to level. I think that needs rewording, though, because it COULD be interepereted that you gain two levels of XP, then spend one, then you only have to gain one more and some change to level again. Perhaps it should just say the levelling threshold for summons is twice normal?

And while it does HELP with those issues, it's still one hour at a time, and there is no may to just 'refresh' a summon without dimissing it. So, you still couldn't enchant them, and while it WOULD take less total time to pass out items, it'd still be facing a couple issues. I.E size of weapons/armor, design of items (Dragon can't fit a boot on, can he?), and several other factors. I think the enhancement bonus idea would help with that, though not alleviate it, and if the player really wants to spend all that money for an item for a summon, then I say it's a cost he's willing to pay, let him pay it.

Now, I've added a channel ability at level seven, and a 'gestalt' ability as you suggested to level fifteen. I also added a section on channeling bonuses/aura effects to each summon. Please tell me if they're not balanced, too weak, too strong, varying too widely, whatever. I've gotta go take care of something now, but I'll be back to include some gestalting bonuses.

dentrag2
2009-09-16, 08:17 PM
Me likey the new bonuses for channeling, but this brings up a question. Can one channel more than one spirit at once?

Godskook
2009-09-16, 08:45 PM
And while it does HELP with those issues, it's still one hour at a time, and there is no may to just 'refresh' a summon without dimissing it. So, you still couldn't enchant them, and while it WOULD take less total time to pass out items, it'd still be facing a couple issues. I.E size of weapons/armor, design of items (Dragon can't fit a boot on, can he?), and several other factors. I think the enhancement bonus idea would help with that, though not alleviate it, and if the player really wants to spend all that money for an item for a summon, then I say it's a cost he's willing to pay, let him pay it.

Non-humanoids can still wear certain normal equipment, and iirc, can also have stuff made explicitly for them.


Now, I've added a channel ability at level seven, and a 'gestalt' ability as you suggested to level fifteen. I also added a section on channeling bonuses/aura effects to each summon. Please tell me if they're not balanced, too weak, too strong, varying too widely, whatever. I've gotta go take care of something now, but I'll be back to include some gestalting bonuses.

Its very interesting, the balance will be very hard to determine.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-16, 08:49 PM
Me likey the new bonuses for channeling, but this brings up a question. Can one channel more than one spirit at once?
Hey, this is a perfect opportunity to make feats! One that lets you channel one additional spirit at once, but can be taken multiple times. Another that lets you channel an additional spirit through a summon, takeable multiple times. BUT you still have the same spirits active maximum.

dentrag2
2009-09-16, 09:43 PM
Excellent feats!

EDIT: I'll get working on some prototypes soon.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-17, 02:50 PM
How's these look:

Multi-channel:
prerequisite: Channel Might class ability
You may channel one additional spirit at a time. This does not change your limit of active spirits.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times.

Spiritual Hybrid
Prerequisite: Channel might (Summon) Class feature
You may channel one additional spirit through a summon at a time. This does not change your limit of active spirits.
special: This feat may be taken multiple times

I added edited a little bit of the 'strength of the call' to include the enhancement bonus to AC, attack, and damage rolls.

dentrag2
2009-09-17, 03:05 PM
Looks good, i'll try them out in a bit.

Godskook
2009-09-17, 04:33 PM
How's these look:

So wait, channeled spirits count against your total spirits 'out'? Interesting...

Admiral Squish
2009-09-17, 05:27 PM
I mean, you're still summoning the spirit, you're just binding it to your own body instead of granting it a physical form.

I'm trying to make it so the summoner has access to all the neccessary powers. I.E flight.

Any other ideas for spirits I could/should include?

dentrag2
2009-09-17, 05:40 PM
Perhaps something that grants Haste?

Spirit of Speed?

Spirit of Rage?

Spirit of Travel?

Admiral Squish
2009-09-17, 05:44 PM
Hmm... I could simply make the Wandering Spirit channel-able.

Godskook
2009-09-17, 11:32 PM
Actually, with the ability to fly, the wandering spirit now sticks out like a sore thumb whereas before, he was just kinda a sidekick to the whole thing.

Also, I know its being bossy-sounding, but could you start keeping a version history? For me, having read it through a couple times, its sometimes hard to see the smaller changes without a handy red flag to help me out.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-18, 08:30 AM
He's still the longest-lasting ability there, and by far the fastest. But then, I dunno.

I always mention the things I change in a new post. I'm not sure what you mean 'version history'. Just stick 'NEW' tags in there for the stuff I changed?