Overpowered BBEG CR? (My players gtfo ;P)

[rezplz]

EnnPeeCee, that means you. Go on, shoo. Get.



















...







Is he gone? ;P Anywho. So for the BBEG that my party's gonna be facing eventually, I decided to pump his ability scores through the roof. He's a cleric, level 20, human. I started off all of his ability scores at 18 each. Then I gave him +5 inherent bonuses in each stat, to get them all to 23 each. for levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 I put all the ability scores into WIS, to get it to 28. After that, I gave him +6 bonuses from items into each ability scores, putting WIS at 34, and everything else at 29. He is also gonna be using the nasty trick of divine metamagic + persist + divine power. I might just give him a spear as a weapon so I don't have to take the war domain (think I gave him travel and magic?) or a feat to be proficient with a better weapon.

What I'm wondering is, what should the average level of the party be to make this a challenging fight? You know, epic final boss before the characters die and/or retire. Because obviously he isn't just a level 20 cleric. Keep in mind that the party pretty un-optimized. The party is:

A dwarf cleric/conjurer(abrupt jaunt)/mystic theurge
A wild elf monk
A raptoran ranger/fighter
A human rogue/conjurer 1 (abrupt jaunt variant)/uncanny trickster (focusing more on skillmonkey/being clever than combat abilities)
A human fighter (tank-focused)

Average level is currently 13. As far as clever tricks and optimization goes, the only one I'm worried at all about is the rogue, being played by ennpeecee. But it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[Melamoto]

They should be able to handle it at level 18-20, as long as they are prepared for it, know what they're up against, and don't end up using too many of their daily resources before the fight.

[VKO]

If it's just one cleric, you should give him slightly lower CR creatures as an entourage. Simply because they'll eat him alive, level 20 or no.

If he's turned himself into clericzilla now... that's another matter altogether.

[RelentlessImp]

DMM: Persist Divine Power + Righteous Might and his STR shoots up to 43 - which is a ridiculous amount, especially if you include Power Attack with a two handed weapon. Your Fighter isn't going to last very long against this guy, unless he's a Shock Trooper Leap Attacking beast, at which point he's relying primarily on killing the guy (or grievously wounding him) in one round before getting obliterated.

If your arcane casters are smart, they'll hit him with 3-4 Maximized Rays of Enfeeblement, since his STR-based damage is the real problem, and they should be able to hit his touch AC. Unless he starts throwing out Destructions against your casters, who have low Fort saves by nature, at which point any hope of defeating this monstrosity goes out the window.

So... it really depends on feats that have been taken by the Fighter, Save-or-Dies/Save-or-Sucks possessed by the arcane casters, and how high the Rogue's BAB and Sneak Attack is. Having an Archmage along with Arcane Reach to cast Wraithstrike on the Fighter would be helpful as well, so he has a chance to hit this guy.

tl;dr version: Unless the players are optimized, this guy will rape them even at 20th level and with the action economy disadvantage.

[Myou]

DMM: Persist Divine Power + Righteous Might and his STR shoots up to 43 - which is a ridiculous amount, especially if you include Power Attack with a two handed weapon. Your Fighter isn't going to last very long against this guy, unless he's a Shock Trooper Leap Attacking beast, at which point he's relying primarily on killing the guy (or grievously wounding him) in one round before getting obliterated.

If your arcane casters are smart, they'll hit him with 3-4 Maximized Rays of Enfeeblement, since his STR-based damage is the real problem, and they should be able to hit his touch AC. Unless he starts throwing out Destructions against your casters, who have low Fort saves by nature, at which point any hope of defeating this monstrosity goes out the window.

So... it really depends on feats that have been taken by the Fighter, Save-or-Dies/Save-or-Sucks possessed by the arcane casters, and how high the Rogue's BAB and Sneak Attack is. Having an Archmage along with Arcane Reach to cast Wraithstrike on the Fighter would be helpful as well, so he has a chance to hit this guy.

tl;dr version: Unless the players are optimized, this guy will rape them even at 20th level and with the action economy disadvantage.

Wraithstrike is Personal - you can't use Arcane Reach on it.

[Lamech]

Depending on the spell/feat/item selection the party could one round him or the cleric could rape them. Also is the theurge going to go into another theurge class? Geomancer perhaps? (He really should.)

Also how much time will the respective groups have to buff up? Will there be prefight encounters? Does the cleric have a cloak of resistance +5 (He really should BTW.)

I mean if the cleric didn't have a great spell selection and I was choosing the selection of feats items and spells the cleric would go down hard.

Yes I know the party is pretty unoptimized, but it only takes one person to post online: How do I defeat this uber cleric, and one me to point out five broken spell tricks.

[RelentlessImp]

Wraithstrike is Personal - you can't use Arcane Reach on it.

Hm. I missed that. It's just a permanent spectral hand/no cast level adjustment Reach Spell, then? Coulda swore that there was a trick involving one of those that turns Personal into Touch and then into Ranged Touch spells...

[woodenbandman]

DMM: Persist Divine Power + Righteous Might and his STR shoots up to 43 - which is a ridiculous amount, especially if you include Power Attack with a two handed weapon. Your Fighter isn't going to last very long against this guy, unless he's a Shock Trooper Leap Attacking beast, at which point he's relying primarily on killing the guy (or grievously wounding him) in one round before getting obliterated.

If your arcane casters are smart, they'll hit him with 3-4 Maximized Rays of Enfeeblement, since his STR-based damage is the real problem, and they should be able to hit his touch AC. Unless he starts throwing out Destructions against your casters, who have low Fort saves by nature, at which point any hope of defeating this monstrosity goes out the window.

So... it really depends on feats that have been taken by the Fighter, Save-or-Dies/Save-or-Sucks possessed by the arcane casters, and how high the Rogue's BAB and Sneak Attack is. Having an Archmage along with Arcane Reach to cast Wraithstrike on the Fighter would be helpful as well, so he has a chance to hit this guy.

tl;dr version: Unless the players are optimized, this guy will rape them even at 20th level and with the action economy disadvantage.

EDIT: That trick involves Spellguard of the Silverymoon.

43 strength is not the most of their problems. In fact, if this guy uses that trick exclusively, they will destroy him. An adult dragon has 33 strength and its CR is 5 lower than this guy. Without magic items or buffs, which it's expected to have. No. THIS guy's going to be dangerous because he can cast Miracle, and because he can cast Holy Word. If you play him just as a glorified fighter he dies in round 1. If you play him as a caster, he might actually win.

If this guy is smart he won't use his DMM on persisted buffs. He'll pull out quickened Miracle on a full attack. He is at a 5vs.1 disadvantage, I highly suggest you pull out all the stops to make it an interesting fight. Even if their characters aren't min/maxed, the players will band together and take this guy out, even if they have to just DPS the crap out of him.

This guy needs contingencies, Fortunate Fate, Contingent Revenance, probably even a Planar ally to help with the slack. How about a Pit Fiend? He should also be throwing debuffs rather than just buffing himself.

[Myou]

Hm. I missed that. It's just a permanent spectral hand/no cast level adjustment Reach Spell, then? Coulda swore that there was a trick involving one of those that turns Personal into Touch and then into Ranged Touch spells...

The Spellguard of Silverymoon's Spellguard as woodenbandman says, can make Personal spells into touch spells.

But not Wraithstrike. Spellguard can only be used on spells that grant additional AC, a bonus to saves or bonus HP/healing.

[sofawall]

Hmm... I seem to recall a feat that makes buff spells heal, thus qualifying for Spellguard.

[Myou]

Hmm... I seem to recall a feat that makes buff spells heal, thus qualifying for Spellguard.

Interesting. Any idea what feat that was?

[Fishy]

That would be the Magic Of The Land feat, but then we're getting into something else entirely.

Aside from the obvious Miracle and Holy Word, what're the spells you really don't want to get hit with by an angry cleric with DMM?

[ericgrau]

Treat it as a template that boosts the BBEG stats and figure out an appropriate LA. But compare his stats to typical PC stats, not to the elite array. And don't count stats from magic items, as long as these items are within his wealth allotment.

[jiriku]

Rezplz, your cleric is probably about +1 CR because he has four or five times the wealth of an NPC of his level. CR 21 is an appropriate climactic encounter for a group of players of about 16th-19th level, depending on their effectiveness.

Can I offer a suggestion? Reduce the cleric to level 18 and use tomes and librams of +2 instead of +5. Then add four well-geared CR 16 support creatures to assist the cleric.

Why would you do this? The current disparity in action economy is going to make this encounter too brief for the drama it deserves. Your cleric gets one standard action and one swift action against the five standard actions and five swift actions of the party (assuming the two conjurers in your party don't summon help). They are going to rip him a new one unless he gets some friends.

Consider also summoning some help. The Augment Summoning, Rapid Summoning and Metamagic School Focus (conjuration) feats, in conjunction with a greater rod of maximize and a ring of mighty summons will get you a maximized rapid summon monster IX, which produces three huge augmented fiendish tyrannosaurs with maximum hitpoints (well over 250 each) and the ability to swallow players whole. I guarantee this will get their attention for at least a round or two.

For your cleric, the spells stalwart pact, renewal pact, and fortunate fate (all from Spell Compendium) will give him considerable resiliance against hit point damage. Lion's Roar (SC) is effective for healing allies and hurting PCs in the same action. Mass Inflict Critical Wounds is good that way too if the allies are undead.


Also, if your BBEG knows the players' tactics, I can tell you from experience that casting anticipate teleportation (SC) on a party that loves tactical teleportation is endlessly amusing for those villain types, especially if you have a caster to fill the squares the player plans to teleport into with something hazardous (I recommend you avoid the greater version of the spell, because being forced to sit out three rounds of the coolest battle in the campaign is no fun for the player).

[rezplz]

He has allies and support creatures and such (I was toying with the idea of him having the tarrasque at his beck and call, but with only one multiclass caster I'm not sure if they could handle it. Depending on how well the adventurers handle themselves in the, um, adventures beforehand, some of his allies may be killed.
A lvl 15 bard (the most annoying, pursuades paladins and such the party is evil. Got the BBEG most of his armies)
A high level shadowdancer vampire
A high level wizard

I'm not sure exactly how he'll be introduced for the big, final fight, since it won't be for a while but this is a general plan of action for him:

Beforehand, he would cast blindness into his spellstoring spear (total enchantments of +10).

Round 1: He would know the players at his point, so he would know which one is their primary caster. Target him with maximized energy drain, then quickened (also maximized? Dunno) energy drain.

Round 2: Start power attacking with his spear. Maybe a quickened spell as well.

Round 3: Cast harm on someone who is next to him. If they fail, then either quickened inflict light wounds, mass, or quickened inflict moderate.

Not sure what he'd do in rounds 4+ if the players are still around. Possibly start summoning things. But if he has warning of the players chances are he'll summon beforehand.



Here's his equipment: 6 tomes of X +5
Items of +6 to all ability scores except STR (that's what divine power is for)
Cloak of resistance +5
+5 spear of ghost touch, unholy, spell storing and viscious
Bracers of armor +8 with greater fire resistance
+5 Animated shield with medium fortification
Monk's belt
Eyes of petrification
Helmet of teleport (quick getaways)



I may consider lowering his level to 18. I do want to make him awe-inspiringly powerful (he's supposed to be chosen by the gods themselves), but I'd rather the fight last a long time... dunno.


Another note: The theurge, their only good caster, prefers blasty damaging spells over battlefield control or save-or-dies. He doesn't plan on going into any other prestige classes, but he may find something he likes and go with it.

Edit: Before battle he would have persisted divine favor and spell resistance cast on himself.

[jiriku]

OK, cool! You're going to have a rocking good encounter.

With the support characters you mentionted, this encounter is probably CR 22-23, assuming the vamp and wizard are CR 15-19. Your players sound like the traditional non-powergaming sort, so I'd recommend they be level 19-20.

Spellstoring with blindness is rude. I like it.:smallbiggrin: If you'd be willing to change up some of the other enchantments, nothing says falling damage like using stormrage to fly and putting greater dispelling (+2 equivalent bonus, MiC) on your spear. Bonus: stormrage provides immunity to ranged attacks and a handy 10d6 lightning attack with no save for the duration of the encounter.

For extra hilarity, hover above a patch of Evard's black tentacles summoned by the wizard so that anyone the cleric hits with the spear is dispelled, blinded, takes falling damage, and is then grappled by the tentacles. That elevates cruelty to an art form.

Bonus points if it's a longspear so the players have to draw an AoO in order to close to melee range.

Edit: reviewing the gear, the shield is a REALLY good choice. You may wish to consider changing the eyes of petrification into a custom item like eyes of slow or eyes of hold person or eyes of bestow curse. Reason being, again, this is the coolest battle of the whole campaign, and it's so big that rounds are going to go SLOW. If you petrify a character on round 1, that player may have to sit out for two hours of real time before someone can unpetrify him. That's no fun. If you use a debuff that allows him to continue acting, or at least make a save every round, then the player remains engaged in the game.

More editing: Making melee attacks is a poor tactic for a 20th level full caster. Why hit one when you can hit them all? Fly using stormrage and let them come to you. In the meantime, rain down death from on high with AoE attacks. Clerics have access to some very good spells in this department, including the mass inflict series (hurts players and heals the vampire both at once!), lion's roar, radiant assault, slime wave, and cometfall (all from spell compendium).