Kyrie's grounds for divorce

[Katana_Geldar]

I wonder what these will be, any suggestions?

[daggaz]

Her spouse made a pact with the devil, perhaps?? :smallconfused:

[Belkster11]

> Made a pact with devils.
> Reanimated a dragon's head with a banned class of magic (Necromancy).
> Casted "Famlicide", which killed 3/4 of the dragon's bloodline.

[Turkish Delight]

Her spouse made a pact with the Devil and endangered their children through reckless behavior. He is responsible for borderline genocide and abandoned the family in the aftermath of their home being burned down and the children having their legs broken. There's also the scandalous incident with Belkar on New Year's Eve.

There's a case here. And we don't know the Elven view on no-fault divorce, either.

[Lililla]

What if s/he doesent really mean it? Maybe it's the only way to get V home and explain everything in another 6 years. Also it could serve as a test to find out what the family means to V, what's going on and if there is any point waiting for hir. And of course to alarm V that the family is not granted and that s/he might loose it if s/he doesen't care about it.

But given what happened, I think there are serious reasons (already said) for Kyrie to divorce V.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Irreconcilable Alignment Differences? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

[Katana_Geldar]

I wonder how V is going to react to this, we've only seen the initial ones. Will we see the elven lands for a court case?

[The Dark Fiddler]

There's also the scandalous incident with Belkar on New Year's Eve.

But Inky doesn't know that.

In fact, he doesn't even know Belkar, does she?


Will we see the elven lands for a court case?

More crayons! :smallbiggrin:

[Weimann]

Well, the way V has acted, it's really not so strange that Kyrie doesn't want the children to have contact with V any more. I mean, most people in D&D lives the quiet life. All those people in the villages you pass through? Yeah, they actually live there, all the time. I have a feeling that Kyrie, in choosing Profession (Bakery), didn't really plan on life getting much more adventurous than that.

How Kyrie hooked up with V, we'll never know (or maybe we will?), but for me, they seem like a rather bad match.

I must say I understand Kyrie's reaction. While I'm sure Kyrie is grateful to V for saving the day, it's also understandable that Kyrie felt the subsequent happenings disqualified V from parenthood.

I must say I agree.

[Bago!!!]

I believe it will something along these lines:

Committing an irrevocable act of evil.
Family abandonment.

Everything else, trivial.

And no, it wasn't 3/4s of the dragon's bloodline. It was 100% of the dragon's bloodline. 1/4 of the black dragon population.

[sam79]

Irreconcilable Alignment Differences? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

This. It is something we know is grounds for divorce in OotS world, and would be pretty easy to establish in this case, based on what Kyrie has seen.

[Katana_Geldar]

That is interesting, as we'd finally have some answers on V's alignment!

[Turkish Delight]

But Inky doesn't know that.

In fact, he doesn't even know Belkar, does she?

Yeah, I know, I was kidding. I'm pretty sure you can't be divorced on the grounds of a drunken halfling kissing you against your wishes on New Year's Eve.

[Lamech]

Defense of V mode: Not a lot of very good ones. He decided to tell V to go ditch her powers when they could have been used to help her kids. (Teleport them to the dwarf for example.) And V also of course, had to attempt to defeat Xykon as if Xykon got the power of the snarl? Bad all around. So V then risked being soul bound and ran up his time of torture, to protect her childern from Xykon. And then her husband turns around and asks her for a divorce. As you can see Kyrie is being crazy.

[Steven the Lich]

I can't exactly fault Vaasuvius' husband/wife, given that he/she witnessed V give a heart attack to 1/4 of all the black dragons in the world.
The fact that V confessed to making pacts with outsiders "in the ventral position" doesn't smooth it over either.

But it doesn't seem fair at all, since he did all that to defend his family. And following this occurence, he did do good and attempted good... Granted, not with the best interests in mind, but still.

I find Kyrie's grounds of divorce not very substantial, because all V ever done here was defend his family, with shady means but hey, would she rather be trailing around the universe as a bodiless soul bound to a dragon?
Also, I don't think its quite a good idea to divorce and sue the guy that (from what he/she saw) instantly annihilated a good chunk of dragons. :smalleek:

[Zordrath]

Another important point is probably that V didn't come back even after he had lost the power. He made no attempt to reconcile with Kyrie. Of course, he couldn't because he can no longer teleprt, but Kyrie doesn't know that, having witnessed V casting teleport two times in a row. She's probably not experienced enough with magic to tell which spells came from the splices and which didn't.

Also, note that V did only defend his family from something he himself got them into by killing someone else's family. Granted, Kyrie doesn't know that, but a court might well dig up some evidence, like those witnesses in the Azure City Trial :smalltongue:

[Steven the Lich]

Another important point is probably that V didn't come back even after he had lost the power. He made no attempt to reconcile with Kyrie. Of course, he couldn't because he can no longer teleprt, but Kyrie doesn't know that, having witnessed V casting teleport two times in a row. She's probably not experienced enough with magic to tell which spells came from the splices and which didn't.

Also, note that V did only defend his family from something he himself got them into by killing someone else's family. Granted, Kyrie doesn't know that, but a court might well dig up some evidence, like those witnesses in the Azure City Trial :smalltongue:
The funny thing about that last bit... How? The only witnesses were the OotS for that crime, and the dragon itself (but he doesn't... you know... count :smallwink:).

[Azukar]

Irreconcilable Alignment Differences? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Q T F.

This is precisely what I thought when I read the title of this thread. Whatever V was before, and whatever he's trying to become now, he was definitely evil at that time, and that's what Kyrie saw.

[Turkish Delight]

The funny thing about that last bit... How? The only witnesses were the OotS for that crime, and the dragon itself (but he doesn't... you know... count :smallwink:).

The Oracle knows about it second-hand, at least.

[Zordrath]

The funny thing about that last bit... How? The only witnesses were the OotS for that crime, and the dragon itself (but he doesn't... you know... count :smallwink:).
Not knowing squat about the actual case didn't stop that doctor from diagnosing the OOTS with an acute case of... something :smalltongue: Also, they summoned a Goblin spirit for the last trial... for this one, they could summon one of the dragons themselves, or perhaps Miko, to whom the OOTS confessed the deed.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Her spouse made a pact with the Devil and endangered their children through reckless behavior.
It wasn't reckless behavior that endangered her children, but killing the first Black Dragon (which is SoP for adventurers, you marry a PC then you take that risk). The pact with the devil was the only thing that saved her family from being stuffed in the fridge in one of the most cliched ways possible.

Anyway, I don't really like Inky. "I thought I had some say in the fate of your immortal soul." You've got a spouse not a dog, you controlling jerk.

[DaggerPen]

What if s/he doesent really mean it? Maybe it's the only way to get V home and explain everything in another 6 years. Also it could serve as a test to find out what the family means to V, what's going on and if there is any point waiting for hir. And of course to alarm V that the family is not granted and that s/he might loose it if s/he doesen't care about it.

I hope that's it.

[Turkish Delight]

It wasn't reckless behavior that endangered her children, but killing the first Black Dragon (which is SoP for adventurers, you marry a PC then you take that risk).

Well, yeah, but isn't V only a very recent PC? Before that just a common mage's apprentice? It's likely the marriage occurred before V was regularly placing him/herself in perpetual danger and angering various powerful, long lived, evil-aligned creatures who might find elven children to be tasty snacks.

[Spiky]

Complete and utter abandonment of the family. Everybody is focussing on what you've seen in the comic. V has been gone for years. What, maybe sending home a few gp occasionally? He can continue to do that after papers are signed.

And yes, all the points above consist of the proverbial last straw. But I'd say the scenes we've witnessed are merely the flashpoint.

[Turkish Delight]

Complete and utter abandonment of the family.

Yeah, but we're working on an Elven timescale here. Six years may well be the equivalent of a business trip in their eyes.

[Nerdanel]

Speculation:

- ...and on top of that all, he didn't teleport to see his family in ages even though he had promised to!
- But I couldn't, b...
- You chose to abandon us!
- I couldn't come to visit! I was on another continent and Teleport is in one of my banned schools.
- You teleported back regularly in the beginning.
- That was before the transition to 3.5 changed everything.
- You teleported in and out just fine a few days ago. Remember the dragon incident?
- And I had to make a deal with fiends to be able to do it, something you denounced just five minutes ago in no uncertain terms!


Well, put something like that in more appropriate speech patterns.

[Steven the Lich]

Not knowing squat about the actual case didn't stop that doctor from diagnosing the OOTS with an acute case of... something :smalltongue: Also, they summoned a Goblin spirit for the last trial... for this one, they could summon one of the dragons themselves, or perhaps Miko, to whom the OOTS confessed the deed.
True, but lets be serious... What court would convict V guilty of slaying an evil dragon?
Even Miko didn't reprimand them that much over it when she discovered it wasn't shiny. :smalltongue:

In any case, that "crime" isn't relevant, except in the fact that it is what placed V's family in danger in the first place.

[Shale]

An evil dragon? Nobody. A quarter of all the black dragons in the world, many of which weren't doing anything to anybody and had no certain alignment at all? Different story.

[reignofevil]

Anyway, I don't really like Inky. "I thought I had some say in the fate of your immortal soul." You've got a spouse not a dog, you controlling jerk.

Yes, how DARE someone who agreed to spend the rest of hir life with V want to have some say in V's immortal soul.
Especially in a world with a concrete, non questionable, afterlife.

[Conuly]

Let's see...

1. Disappeared for six years (with what appears to be minimal contact), aka "abandonment"
2. Returned only after driving a black dragon to their gates
3. Made a pact with the fiends
4. Murdered 1/4 of another sentient species - an act that even the devas condemn and the fiends applaud as "evil".
5. Threatened V's spouse and children when the previous "running off for six years" was mentioned.
6. Disappeared again and didn't get in contact again - and in two days, V had the chance to do so.

And we don't even know what went down BEFORE V left the first time. If my relationship was already a bit rocky, and then my spouse left me raising the kids for a long time (six years, one year in elven terms - the point is it's a super long time to be gone) only to come back in an incredibly violent and evil way - gee, I think that'd be the last straw for me.

[Lamech]

She joined up with a military outfit, they tend to take up large amounts of time. Elf to human years is about 5:1 so she has been gone a pretty reasonable amount of time.

[Aldrakan]

Abandoned them for years.
Made them a powerful enemy.
Made a pact with demons.
Acted with extreme coldness to his children: Are their injuries immediately life threatening?
Annihilated a large chunk of a sentient race with clearly evil magic.
Acted threateningly to Ink in front of the children
When given an ultimatum that amounts to "if you care about us more than you do having ultimate arcane power, stop this" kept the pact and left.
As far as we know, has given no thought to contacting them in the admittedly short interim period.

Some of these things have a pretty good justification, though Ink doesn't know all of them. Others do not.

[rewinn]

I wonder what these will be, any suggestions?
An old and experienced divorce lawyer once told me:

"The thing to remember in family law cases is that both parents are going to act completely insane."

People just don't ask rationally when feelings are involved. And even less so when it comes to protecting children.

If Inky had full and complete knowledge of what V had done and why, it might have been actually kind of romantic, "You sold your soul for me and our kids? Come here you big lunk...."

And maybe this is what will happen when all the facts come out at the hearing (It's a safe assumption that Elven courts have some sort of lengthy process; they are immortal, so who knows how long these things can drag out? Argh!)

But in the meantime, Inky has plenty of grounds for divorce: abandonment to begin with, stemming from Inky's direct and specific request to stay with the family after the rescue. This was not an unreasonable request, considering that Inky and the kids had just been tortured.

If Elf family law proceeds on a "Best Interests of the Child" standard, obviously Inky gets custody. V simply can NOT take care of the kids while saving the world. It's a classic heroic tragedy.

I would HOPE V and Inky can patch up their relationship but if it can't be fixed the divorce is a reasonable option ... depending of course of the laws of that Elf Kingdom. For some reason, the panel didn't include the full text of the scroll so we don't know which statutes, if any, are being referenced.

I congratulate The Giant for introducing yet another dimension into the Stickverse: Lawomancy!

[Janmorel]

Yeah, I know, I was kidding. I'm pretty sure you can't be divorced on the grounds of a drunken halfling kissing you against your wishes on New Year's Eve.

Although willingly spending time with the Belkster is possibly grounds for divorce in several countries....

[Starbuck_II]

Let's see...

1. Disappeared for six years (with what appears to be minimal contact), aka "abandonment"
2. Returned only after driving a black dragon to their gates
3. Made a pact with the fiends
4. Murdered 1/4 of another sentient species - an act that even the devas condemn and the fiends applaud as "evil".
5. Threatened V's spouse and children when the previous "running off for six years" was mentioned.
6. Disappeared again and didn't get in contact again - and in two days, V had the chance to do so.

(I'll use her pronoun for V)
1. She told her why, the spouse was okay with that.
2. Returned after trying to stop a dragon from killing her family.
3. Heresay.
4. Not proven: no witnesses; no one had spellcraft there.
5. Threatened? She just implied. After she finished her sentence, Inky totally understood.
6. Said Spouse has no proof she had the ability to contact him.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Yes, how DARE someone who agreed to spend the rest of hir life with V want to have some say in V's immortal soul.
Especially in a world with a concrete, non questionable, afterlife.
I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but, yes, exactly. V's soul is V's business and no one else's. Inky's whole performance (especially in 642) was just pure self-centered obnoxiousness. Whine, whine, whine, guilt-trip, guilt-trip, do this, do that, I guess you just don't love me, boohoohoo.

[Aldrakan]

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but, yes, exactly. V's soul is V's business and no one else's. Inky's whole performance (especially in 642) was just pure self-centered obnoxiousness. Whine, whine, whine, guilt-trip, guilt-trip, do this, do that, I guess you just don't love me, boohoohoo.

Um or possibly she didn't want someone she loved damned to Hell? If you marry someone, your physical, mental, spiritual wellbeing becomes important to them too, that's kind of the deal.

[Elfin]

She joined up with a military outfit, they tend to take up large amounts of time. Elf to human years is about 5:1 so she has been gone a pretty reasonable amount of time.

I'm pretty sure that in this world elves are immortal- in the bonus strips in the front of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools V says that Roy is "only a mortal".

[Zanaril]

I'm pretty sure that in this world elves are immortal- in the bonus strips in the front of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools V says that Roy is "only a mortal".

I don't think they're immortal, just that they live a very long time. :smallconfused: Either way, we can estimate.

Judging from the ages of elves we know, a roughtly 1:6 ratio of human to 'elf years' seem to fit best. The kids are 26, which makes them about four in elf years. V is apparently 130, making her 21 in elf years, which is also about right.

[The Dark Fiddler]

3. Heresay.

I know nearly nothing about law, but is it still hearsay if the person involved said it themselves?

Off topic, I love your signature.


I'm pretty sure that in this world elves are immortal- in the bonus strips in the front of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools V says that Roy is "only a mortal".

I've called people "only a mortal" before.

[Aldrakan]

I know nearly nothing about law, but is it still hearsay if the person involved said it themselves?

Off topic, I love your signature.



I've called people "only a mortal" before.

Hearsay Exception: Admission by party opponent.

I suppose it depends on what legal system you're using, but I think it usually isn't.

[Leliel]

Let me count the ways...

(Holds up fingers on right hand)

One: Scaring the children out of their minds.

(Pinky goes down)

Two: Showing callous disregard for sapient life.

(Ring finger goes down)

Three: Leaving without any attempt at reconciliation, beyond an apology that really didn't mean anything.

(Index goes down)

Oh yeah, one other thing-Selling soul to fiends.

I'll leave that finger up.

[Elfey]

Hearsay Exception: Admission by party opponent.

I suppose it depends on what legal system you're using, but I think it usually isn't.

Family court doesn't have nearly as close to the normal strict procedures about evidence in most states.

Besides, has no one ever heard of a no-fault divorce? Most places allow divorce for pretty much no reason, the only place reasons come in is when you're talking about child support and custody. V's traveling and not the primary care giver so Inky will prolly win no matter what.

[Nerdanel]

If Kyrie takes half of V's wealth-by-level it could have bad implications for his combat effectiveness. No expensive spell components, having to sell some of his magic items and not be able to buy new level-appropriate ones...

[Faleldir]

Can anyone explain to me why killing 63 Evil dragons out of anger is worse than killing 63 Evil dragons for XP?

[Warren Dew]

Clearly the grounds were that Vaarsuvius stole Kyrie's hair style.

[Conuly]

Can anyone explain to me why killing 63 Evil dragons out of anger is worse than killing 63 Evil dragons for XP?

That was Mama Dragon's question as well, funnily enough.


She joined up with a military outfit, they tend to take up large amounts of time. Elf to human years is about 5:1 so she has been gone a pretty reasonable amount of time.

So if your spouse left you to go "study" and then send you a note saying "Whoops, I decided to 'study' by joining the French Foreign Legion, might not be back for awhile", you'd be cool with that?

[Kish]

Can anyone explain to me why killing 63 Evil dragons out of anger is worse than killing 63 Evil dragons for XP?
Whether it's better or worse is arguable. In the immortal words of Dr. Julian Bashir, to make people suffer because you hate them is horrifying, but to make people suffer because you've forgotten how to care is worse.

Now you ask about the morality of killing a creature for XP, in a D&D parody comic where XP exists as a concept the characters know about. (In a straight D&D session its blatant out-of-characterness prevents it from even getting to the "morally justifiable" stage; for every creature you kill without an IC reason "for XP," you deserve a non-roleplaying XP penalty greater than the XP you could get for overcoming [see below] the creature. Also, you do realize that 3.xed D&D awards XP for "overcoming challenges," whether that's done by force, trickery, or negotiation, not "killing creatures," right? If you kill a creature who wasn't presenting a challenge to you, you get 0 XP for yet another reason.)

I doubt the "abandonment" angle is one Inkyrius will pursue. In elven terms, being away for a few years appears to be like being away for a week or two. However, s/he has plenty of grounds to divorce Vaarsuvius and take the children, even if Vaarsuvius is crazy enough to contest the divorce legally.

[Steven the Lich]

An evil dragon? Nobody. A quarter of all the black dragons in the world, many of which weren't doing anything to anybody and had no certain alignment at all? Different story.
:roy: Ummm... its scales weren't all shiny?
:miko: Ah. Then its destruction was just and necessary.

Black dragons (or those kind of dragons in general) I would think are usually evil. Thus, I don't believe that a court in this world would hold it against someone for killing them.
After all, Miko, the paladin fanatically bound to the law, isn't distressed about a dragon slaying because it was evil.

Rather, the spell in particular used to kill them would more likely be the focus.

[Aldrakan]

:roy: Ummm... its scales weren't all shiny?
:miko: Ah. Then its destruction was just and necessary.

As has been pointed out ad nauseam in debates about this, you're using Miko as a sensible guide to morality. Whether the dragons were evil is controversial. There's a giant thread about it somewhere.

[Harr]

As has been pointed out ad nauseam in debates about this, you're using Miko as a sensible guide to morality.


Yeah, Because Roy wasn't the one who said it in the first place, right?

And the rest of the OOTS didn't agree at all, in that strip?

Right.

[Ridureyu]

So, is this thread asking whether or not Kyrie's divorce of Vaarsuvius is Morally Justified?

[Zanaril]

So, is this thread asking whether or not Kyrie's divorce of Vaarsuvius is Morally Justified?

No. No it is not.

It's asking why Inkyrius thinks a divorce is morally justified.

[Ridureyu]

That statement assumes that either it's absolutely justified or it isn't, and the only debate is Inkyrius's opinion. It doesn't look like that's what's being debated.

[Zanaril]

That statement assumes that either it's absolutely justified or it isn't, and the only debate is Inkyrius's opinion. It doesn't look like that's what's being debated.

Debates about slightly different subjects tend to overwhelm a thread sometimes, as is only natural. This thread is about what Inkyrius' reasons for the divorce are, or at least it started off that way. :smalltongue:

And my statement doesn't assume, only implies, and not intentionally.

[Olorin Maia]

I wouldn't be surprised if after hearing all of Inky's reasons for divorce, V looked at him and said "you're right. I am unfit to be a parent."

V obviously cares about her children and family, and this is a wonderful way to remove them from future harm.

[Bago!!!]

Ummm... its scales weren't all shiny?
Ah. Then its destruction was just and necessary.

Black dragons (or those kind of dragons in general) I would think are usually evil. Thus, I don't believe that a court in this world would hold it against someone for killing them.
After all, Miko, the paladin fanatically bound to the law, isn't distressed about a dragon slaying because it was evil.

Rather, the spell in particular used to kill them would more likely be the focus.
There is a fine line between destroying a evil dragon and destroying a huge population of dragons.

Its also to point out that its possible that not all of those dragons were evil, or had anything to do with what one dragon had done in the name of vengance. Espicially with the half-dragons and most definately with the baby dragons, or those yet to be hatched.

Another thing to point out, just because something is evil does not mean you have the grounds to justfy an action against it.

[Conuly]

I doubt the "abandonment" angle is one Inkyrius will pursue. In elven terms, being away for a few years appears to be like being away for a week or two.

If my co-parent disappeared with my blessing for a couple of weeks, when they came back I wouldn't accuse them of leaving me to "raise our children" by myself.

If they left for a year or so, though, I definitely would.


Yeah, Because Roy wasn't the one who said it in the first place, right?

And the rest of the OOTS didn't agree at all, in that strip?

Right.

Let's review the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html). First Miko mentioned that some dragons are good and advanced into Roy's personal space in a threatening way. Then Roy, retreating, stretched for a reason dragonslaying wasn't wrong. It strikes me as a reason even he acknowledges as a poor one, given his "um" before he says it and his questioning tone. "Um, his scales weren't shiny?" Then Miko acts as though this argument makes perfect sense, and Elan pipes up with a remark that could easily be either stupid or sarcastic. Hard to tell. Especially with Elan, and we know not to take anything said in the last panel too seriously, it's the punchline. Two OOTS members and Miko.

Yeeeeeeeah... I don't know, even without dragging in the fact that Miko is absolutely insane, I'm not buying this as a good argument.


Another thing to point out, just because something is evil does not mean you have the grounds to justify an action against it.

Indeed. For all I know, my next door neighbors are sitting around just Being Evil all the time, but until they move from BEING evil to DOING evil, I think I'll refrain from hypocritical mass murder.

[Tass]

Then Roy, retreating, stretched for a reason dragonslaying wasn't wrong. It strikes me as a reason even he acknowledges as a poor one, given his "um" before he says it and his questioning tone. "Um, his scales weren't shiny?"

Um, no? Roys "Um" was the same type as I just made.

[InfectiousFight]

(Using "he" for Vaarsuvius and "she" for Inkyrius)

Remember to separate what a court case for divorce would involve, and what a court case for Vaarsuvius' actions against the dragon would involve.

True, we know very little of what would be considered sufficient to grant grounds for divorce. For now, let us assume they are at least somewhat similar to those in the United States, as that is what I am most familiar with.
In most of the United States, fairly or unfairly, women are free to practice no-fault divorce, and thus, no arguments, explanations, or exceptions could stop Kyrie from divorcing Vaarsuvius. If she were to do so, it's also very hard to imagine a court that wouldn't grant her custody.

If the Elven courts do not, however, have no-fault divorce, then Kyrie would need to prove that Vaarsuvius was actively detrimental to the marriage and the rearing of the two children.

We could say "abandonment for six years" but we saw earlier that Kyrie seemed to be fine with this, at least outwardly. If Vaarsuvius could prove she had previously stated that she was fine with him leaving, that concern could be dismissed.

If Kyrie claimed that a being willing to make pacts with fiend could not be a good parent, he could counter that he saw it as the only way to protect her and their children from not only death, but being soulbound to an evil dragon. At least in Texas, "Castle Law" and extensions from it could theoretically dismiss this objection.

Furthermore, any arguments based on Vaarsuvius' actions while soul-spliced could be dismissed (or mitigated) under a temporary insanity plea. He could claim that with three of the most powerful evil souls literally constantly whispering into his ear, that he was rendered unable to use his normal mental faculties to make decisions, essentially, it could be claimed that he was "not Vaarsuvius" at the time, and so Vaarsuvius could not be blamed for any actions done at the time. The pure act of entering into the soul-splice could be objected but we've established that Vaarsuvius had no alternative in order to prevent a fate literally worse than death for his family. (we do know there was an alternative...but nobody else knows that, besides Vaarsuvius.)

So while it is still pretty likely that Inkyrius can obtain a divorce and custody of their children, if we assume that Elven courts do not provide for no-fault divorce, that Vaarsuvius can successfully argue that the soul-splice was necessary to protect his family, and that he was not responsible for any actions taken while in the soul-splice, Vaarsuvius does have a chance at retaining his marriage and children, at least in a legal sense.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that Kyrie's summons is really just a way for her to get Vaarsuvius back so that they can talk face-to-face for once.

[Katana_Geldar]

Maybe a summons includes a teleport so there's no excuse in missing your court date.

Will Celia be representing V? That would make some interesting telling, particularly if V tells her the truth.

But what I have been thinking is V has a very good chance of losing his temper in court, particularly if the judge starts to talk along the lines of not permitting V visitation rights, even supervised ones.

[Reluctance]

Most messengers simply hand over the message, rather than goading the recipient to violence. I can't shake the feeling that this was a critical test of some sort by itself.

[pflare]

You want to know how the court messenger's work watch Pineapple Express.

[Conuly]

Um, no? Roy's "Um" was the same type as I just made.

Are you cowering in fear right now? Like Roy was? If not, it can hardly be the same - and unless you have any evidence for your view I'm not inclined to change mine.

[David Argall]

Divorces rarely happen for world-shaking reasons. They are much more likely to happen because "he doesn't love me any more." Destroying a whole bunch of dragons, selling her soul, etc are issues that a marriage survives. Never being home, and not listening or not caring, that is what killing the marriage here.

Now V may or may not get K back. There are cliches both ways. But it won't be the big issues that decide that.

[Aldrakan]

Divorces rarely happen for world-shaking reasons. They are much more likely to happen because "he doesn't love me any more." Destroying a whole bunch of dragons, selling her soul, etc are issues that a marriage survives. Never being home, and not listening or not caring, that is what killing the marriage here.

Oh yeah that's true. I mean when my mom took over the world and transformed into a demon, sure my dad looked askance for a minute, but they got over i- what are you talking about?!

The reason most divorces don't happen because of world-shaking events is because they're rare, not because people just shrug them off when they happen.

[Katana_Geldar]

Kyrie thinks that this is what V always wanted instead of their him/her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html)

And Kyrie is still under the impression that V still has the soul splices.

[Silverraptor]

Kyrie thinks that this is what V always wanted instead of their him/her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html)

And Kyrie is still under the impression that V still has the soul splices.

I was thinking that too.

[TriForce]

seriously, if i read some reactions to this topic i think most never had a relationship in their life :P

lets try this: Caring more for magic then his/her family, mate and children


its as simple as that, v's mate is a baker, he/she doesnt know a thing about magic, and only knows demons be baaaad. if V stopped the splice after destroying the dragon family tree, V's mate would probably forgive anything and everything, but as we all know, V kept his power, becouse that was more important then even his/her family

[Rayzin]

The divorce was because V didn't care enough for his/her family and stay after wiping out the dragons. Im sure that Kyrie wouldn't have divorced solely because of that they could have gotten over that for sure.

Ugh... I see the Belkars Romantic Intrest threads fantasies becoming slightly plausible.

[doliest]

Furthermore, any arguments based on Vaarsuvius' actions while soul-spliced could be dismissed (or mitigated) under a temporary insanity plea. He could claim that with three of the most powerful evil souls literally constantly whispering into his ear, that he was rendered unable to use his normal mental faculties to make decisions, essentially, it could be claimed that he was "not Vaarsuvius" at the time, and so Vaarsuvius could not be blamed for any actions done at the time. The pure act of entering into the soul-splice could be objected but we've established that Vaarsuvius had no alternative in order to prevent a fate literally worse than death for his family. (we do know there was an alternative...but nobody else knows that, besides Vaarsuvius.)


1.The soul splice didn't affect his personality.
2.There were other options.
I know that you said they don't know, but the courts could call up the IFCC and ask, and they WOULD admit it because it would hurt V and they owe Tiamet.

[Aeon221]

V didn't do the soul splice for his family. If it was only about his family, and not about his own ego, he'd have gone with the plan the demons suggested.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html

Hell, I'd boot him too. You noticed he hasn't once written, or used a sending spell, or in any way attempted to communicate with his wife "on camera" over the course of their entire separation? Six years without a word?

Yeah, no, that's not how a loving mate acts.

[Katana_Geldar]

Not when there are children involved.

[spargel]

Considering that Kyrie hasn't talked about the familicide at all, and V's the one who saved him + children, I have no idea what she can say.

[GallóglachMaxim]

[QUOTE=doliest;6922963]1.The soul splice didn't affect his personality.QUOTE]

The splice didn't affect his alignment, but simply having all that power on hand and little/no restriction on using it had an impact on hir personality.

[Katana_Geldar]

As we have witnessed in the last two strips. Imagine if V pulls a stunt like that in court? It will be a lot more than contempt.

[Kalbron]

V didn't do the soul splice for his family. If it was only about his family, and not about his own ego, he'd have gone with the plan the demons suggested.

And he'd be dead, his family would be dead, and his children's souls would be eternally suffering as prized possessions of a Black Dragon.

Well done, you've made the world a better place!

Somehow I think being alive to work through their differences is slightly better than being dead yes? Of course, that relies upon Kyrie actually letting V say his part rather than interrupting with her arrogant assumptions.

Besides, the act of seeking a divorce in this sort of situation is based upon the assumptions that:
A) V is still rational.
B) V is not insanely evil.
C) V still cares about his family.

Whereas Kyrie essentially said to V's face that he's not A, not B and doesn't C.

So... why is there even a divorce being filed for if Kyrie is being honest with what she's said and not just being a huge pain in th-... oh.

[Katana_Geldar]

Because Kyrie has the impression that the soul splice was all about V and not him/her and their kids and has a little proof in V refusing to give it up.

Also, Kyrie has to think of their kids who have a probably evil and unstable "other parent". The kids make things a little more serious given how "young" they are.

[David Argall]

V didn't do the soul splice for his family. If it was only about his family, and not about his own ego, he'd have gone with the plan the demons suggested.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html

While we can claim this was writer flaw, the fiendish plan was absurd, to be considered only by someone who had already rejected [or been rejected] selling/renting the soul. As written, the plan simply would not have worked. Durkon and Elan had already left the fleet, and Qarr could not have contacted them. Even if we assume that is merely a plot hole, the plan has a dozen obvious ways it could totally fail and the only reason to prefer it to the fiendish plan is the [well founded] idea that there is a kicker in the fiendish plan.


You noticed he hasn't once written, or used a sending spell, or in any way attempted to communicate with his wife "on camera" over the course of their entire separation? Six years without a word?

While frequent communication seems unlikely, the limit of "on camera" is much the same as saying we have no idea if V communicated frequently or rarely. We simply do not see that much of V's day. She could have written almost hourly without us finding out.

V just cares about magic more than about his family [or at least seems to] and that is quite enough condemnation from K's view.

[veti]

seriously, if i read some reactions to this topic i think most never had a relationship in their life :P

lets try this: Caring more for magic then his/her family, mate and children

Q F T.

"Irreconcilable differences", it might be called. And sure, the court might up and say "you haven't really tried very hard to reconcile them, have you?", but Inky would retort "How can I? She's never there."

Bottom line: Inky has just realised that V has a completely different set of life priorities, and no longer believes that these are compatible with his own, or with the welfare of the children.

What's more: if V really loves them, I reckon she'll let them go. They'd probably be safer that way.

[spargel]

Does no one here remember that V was willing to sell his soul to save them from death and eternal torment?

[Steven the Lich]

There is a fine line between destroying a evil dragon and destroying a huge population of dragons.

Its also to point out that its possible that not all of those dragons were evil, or had anything to do with what one dragon had done in the name of vengance. Espicially with the half-dragons and most definately with the baby dragons, or those yet to be hatched.

Another thing to point out, just because something is evil does not mean you have the grounds to justfy an action against it.

A huge population of naturally evil dragons, I should point out. But point taken.

I'm not saying V was morally right... Just that in a mortal court, he wouldn't be convicted guilty of it... Unless it was an evil court, of course.

If V was ever pinned because of this, it would be via the means he killed them, not the fact he killed them alone. The means? A epic necromancy spell.


Let's review the strip. First Miko mentioned that some dragons are good and advanced into Roy's personal space in a threatening way. Then Roy, retreating, stretched for a reason dragonslaying wasn't wrong. It strikes me as a reason even he acknowledges as a poor one, given his "um" before he says it and his questioning tone. "Um, his scales weren't shiny?" Then Miko acts as though this argument makes perfect sense, and Elan pipes up with a remark that could easily be either stupid or sarcastic. Hard to tell. Especially with Elan, and we know not to take anything said in the last panel too seriously, it's the punchline. Two OOTS members and Miko. But thats the thing, dragons that are chromatic are the offspring of Tiamat, an evil dragon god. Bahamut and the metallic dragons are the opposite.

The point is, Miko doesn't act against them. A normal paladin, I would bet, would do the same. With Miko, we have good authority that someone wholy dedicated to the law and good, to a fanatical degree perhaps.

As to the uncertainty of his response, he wasn't expecting Miko to be angry over them doing dragonslaying. He was proud when he said it. So I imagine it only natural to struggle for the excuse when confronted so suddenly.
In his position, I wouldn't exactly be sure if "His scales weren't shiny" to be enough to satisfy the paladin that assaulted me over dragonslaying.

[DarkLadyNyara]

While we can claim this was writer flaw, the fiendish plan was absurd, to be considered only by someone who had already rejected [or been rejected] selling/renting the soul. As written, the plan simply would not have worked. Durkon and Elan had already left the fleet, and Qarr could not have contacted them. Even if we assume that is merely a plot hole, the plan has a dozen obvious ways it could totally fail and the only reason to prefer it to the fiendish plan is the [well founded] idea that there is a kicker in the fiendish plan.

I wouldn't call it a writer flaw or a plot hole. The plan didn't need to have a chance at working as far as the fiends were concerned- they just had to plant that seed of doubt in V. (Qarr refers it it as "ridiculous" as I recall.)

There's also the fact that the "alternate plan," even if it could have worked, wouldn't necessarily have saved the lives of Kyrie and the children- just kept the dragon from binding their souls and leaving.

[Lissou]

Even if V hasn't contacted his spouse in 6 years, don't forget they're elves. It's not that long for them. It's probably the equivalent of something like a week or something.

When the kids ask when V will be back, K says "oh, one of these years I'm sure". It really doesn't seem that he's been away for that long from an elf point of view.

[Acero]

I wonder how V is going to react to this, we've only seen the initial ones. Will we see the elven lands for a court case?

hopefully, it will be Disintegrate, followed by Gust of Wind.

no one wants another court scene.

[Kalbron]

Not even save the lives given the time delay. V barely arrived in time after all, and that was essentially instantly after a Time Stop.

Any alternate plan would have failed due to the time constraints.

So yeah - without the deal, the family is dead and V has to spend years plane-hopping to track down the black dragon fully aware that his children never had to suffer more than physical injuries if he had swallowed his pride and accepted the deal.

With the deal he gets slapped in the face with a divorce, but his family is alive even if he is damned.

That right there is not an easy choice, but people are more than happy to condemn him because he made a pact with EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL! BAD V! EVIL! BAD V!

[Shale]

I think the most likely for V to do is ignore the summons entirely. With what he's already done, do you think she would willingly take more time out of the whole save-the-world thing when there's no material danger to hir family?

[Prak]

I still like the idea of "Failure to consummate" being on the list somewhere. It'd mean even Kyrie might not know V's gender.

Abandonment is possible. Though then we have to look at elven perspective of time. And we need to know what exactly took place when V left (the first time).

[spargel]

Considering that Kyrie had no problem with V leaving for several years, and V saved her family, I doubt he has a case for abandonment.

[Kalbron]

I think the most likely for V to do is ignore the summons entirely. With what he's already done, do you think she would willingly take more time out of the whole save-the-world thing when there's no material danger to hir family?

Exactly.

After all, the quest can't take much more than another year, perhaps two, and if it fails the world might end.

So long as Kyrie doesn't send any more insane lawyer wizards after V, I can see him just sighing, shrugging, getting on with the unthanked task of saving the world, before returning home to spend years upon years repairing his personal life.

...

Ouch. What heroic end.

[Spiky]

Even if V hasn't contacted his spouse in 6 years, don't forget they're elves. It's not that long for them. It's probably the equivalent of something like a week or something.

When the kids ask when V will be back, K says "oh, one of these years I'm sure". It really doesn't seem that he's been away for that long from an elf point of view.
Quoted from V in Origins:
"20 years in diapers."

You're assuming quite a bit, specifically that elves experience time differently. I submit that it is quite the opposite. They have longer lives and 5-6x MORE experiences, as V's quote implies. They do not skip over the years faster because their lives are longer. V has missed 6 years of his children's lives. Just because they were the equivalent of toddlers (just out of diapers, it would seem) for the entire time and human children would have appeared older does not reduce the missed experiences, it makes it worse. This is a key time for children, when they learn more faster than any other time in their lives. Major personality traits and bonding to parents also are created/solidified during this stretch. At least in our world, and I think that would be pretty comparable in the D&D world.

[73 Bits of Lint]

While we can claim this was writer flaw, the fiendish plan was absurd, to be considered only by someone who had already rejected [or been rejected] selling/renting the soul. As written, the plan simply would not have worked. Durkon and Elan had already left the fleet, and Qarr could not have contacted them. Even if we assume that is merely a plot hole, the plan has a dozen obvious ways it could totally fail and the only reason to prefer it to the fiendish plan is the [well founded] idea that there is a kicker in the fiendish plan.
Whether the plan would have worked or not is irrelevant. That V believed that she had an alternative is all that is required for the purpose of determining whether she "freely chose to sell her soul" or "had no choice but to sell her soul."

[Scarlet Knight]

Even if V hasn't contacted his spouse in 6 years, don't forget they're elves. It's not that long for them. It's probably the equivalent of something like a week or something.

When the kids ask when V will be back, K says "oh, one of these years I'm sure". It really doesn't seem that he's been away for that long from an elf point of view.

I look at it as if Kyrie was married to a ship's captain. S/he knows s/he 'll be away, love of the sea and all, but will return to home when s/he can. Then one day s/he returns and s/he finds out s/he's a pirate. But s/he still claims to care, but leaves anyway when s/he asks him/her to give up piracy. (Blast this is hard without pronouns!)

Plus, I wonder if K found out that V's been bunking with Haley all these years....:smallwink:

[Hell Puppi]

I think the grounds for divorce are totally justified.
Just think of it like this: You and your children are injured and just went through a severely traumatic event.
Your spouse gets rid of the danger, but then immediately heads out the door. You ask him/her to stay, but she wants to leave for work.
You think this is a messed-up priority, since obviously you and your children need help, comfort and reassurance.
Your spouse apologizes, but leaves anyway. Then does not call later to see if you made it to the hospital or how you or the children are doing.


Most likely V has had magic as a priority for a while...so how much family time has V missed? Not just the past 6 years or so but before that? Canceled vacations? Missed birthdays/important events? How long until you say screw it, I might as well be on my own?

[Bago!!!]

A huge population of naturally evil dragons, I should point out. But point taken.

I'm not saying V was morally right... Just that in a mortal court, he wouldn't be convicted guilty of it... Unless it was an evil court, of course.

If V was ever pinned because of this, it would be via the means he killed them, not the fact he killed them alone. The means? A epic necromancy spell.

But thats the thing, dragons that are chromatic are the offspring of Tiamat, an evil dragon god. Bahamut and the metallic dragons are the opposite.

The point is, Miko doesn't act against them. A normal paladin, I would bet, would do the same. With Miko, we have good authority that someone wholy dedicated to the law and good, to a fanatical degree perhaps.

As to the uncertainty of his response, he wasn't expecting Miko to be angry over them doing dragonslaying. He was proud when he said it. So I imagine it only natural to struggle for the excuse when confronted so suddenly.
In his position, I wouldn't exactly be sure if "His scales weren't shiny" to be enough to satisfy the paladin that assaulted me over dragonslaying.

If a court says, "Oh, well their evil so we'll just let it slide," just because of their race, then I would listen to that chaotic voice within me thats saying, "Cause anarchy! Law is inadequate!"

Miko, also had it on 'good' authority to kill her ruler, but we all saw how good that went.

Point stands, Miko was delusional and no skill points in that class skill that is rarely used, 'Common Sense.' Perhaps I should hit you with the book*.... Maybe it will grow on you....

In any case, we all agree that this horrible event was evil, despite whoever the victem was. It went beyond the call of duty of defense of family, and was the sulfer in the wound.
On the plus side, the whole family's together for ONE huge reunion.

*For more details, see Thomas Paine....


Edit:

You're assuming quite a bit, specifically that elves experience time differently. I submit that it is quite the opposite. They have longer lives and 5-6x MORE experiences, as V's quote implies. They do not skip over the years faster because their lives are longer. V has missed 6 years of his children's lives. Just because they were the equivalent of toddlers (just out of diapers, it would seem) for the entire time and human children would have appeared older does not reduce the missed experiences, it makes it worse. This is a key time for children, when they learn more faster than any other time in their lives. Major personality traits and bonding to parents also are created/solidified during this stretch. At least in our world, and I think that would be pretty comparable in the D&D world.
No, this does not mean 6 years is a HUGE time in a child's life, thats like assuming half a year is rather grave. I admit, to us its a HUGE length of time, but when your a race who have seen the rise of wars, the fall of empires, and the length of peace, you do not view time as something that is valueable. Thats the case with the younger generation, and its usually only realized on how such time, such oppertunity, is wasted when you've looked back and think of your decisions as an old man. Or when a traumatic event has happened.

[spargel]

If a court says, "Oh, well their evil so we'll just let it slide," just because of their race, then I would listen to that chaotic voice within me thats saying, "Cause anarchy! Law is inadequate!"


That's because you live in real life, not fantasy worlds.

[Bago!!!]

Perhaps, but if we put someone, such as stalin or hitler, and they managed to get off scott free because he managed to pull a fast one on the legal system, then by jove it would get the fire in my furnace burning.

There is a line where Lawful protects the common good and where it obstructs the common good, and such a thing I feel would be like hitting it home on not the first date but after the pick up line. If that makes any sense.

[Jayngfet]

That's because you live in real life, not fantasy worlds.

Of course the ENTIRE POINT of the comic is being a fantasy world doesn't excuse it. Momma Dragon shows that black dragons are fully capable of normal emotions, and we've yet to see any of those black dragons DO anything. All we any black dragons doing is vending off an adventurer attacks/fly around for a bit/hunt small game/Lie around at home.

Not to mention the fact that, last I recall, the entire possibly world ending conflict was based on the faults of that handwave.

[Sholos]

Besides, the act of seeking a divorce in this sort of situation is based upon the assumptions that:
A) V is still rational.
B) V is not insanely evil.
C) V still cares about his family.

Whereas Kyrie essentially said to V's face that he's not A, not B and doesn't C.

So... why is there even a divorce being filed for if Kyrie is being honest with what she's said and not just being a huge pain in th-... oh.

Wait, aren't those reasons for staying together? I'd say getting divorced from an irrational, insanely evil person who doesn't care about his family is a good idea, not a bad one.

[Bago!!!]

He's using irony sir. Rather profusely might I add.

V has said all of these, and when it came to prove it to his spouse, he left because he had other priorities. And it is because he has other priorities that are above more important than family that makes him ill suited for parenting, from Inky's perspective.

[Sholos]

Edit:
No, this does not mean 6 years is a HUGE time in a child's life, thats like assuming half a year is rather grave. I admit, to us its a HUGE length of time, but when your a race who have seen the rise of wars, the fall of empires, and the length of peace, you do not view time as something that is valueable. Thats the case with the younger generation, and its usually only realized on how such time, such oppertunity, is wasted when you've looked back and think of your decisions as an old man. Or when a traumatic event has happened.

I think the fact that the children are even asking it says that they're missing V and want to see him. That alone says he's been gone long enough (and hasn't contacted them) to be noticeable.

________________________________

He's using irony sir. Rather profusely might I add.

V has said all of these, and when it came to prove it to his spouse, he left because he had other priorities. And it is because he has other priorities that are above more important than family that makes him ill suited for parenting, from Inky's perspective.

Didn't sound like irony.

[Bago!!!]

Long enough? How can we judge what is long enough by a child's statement in such a degree. Thats not enough to provide insight to this matter.

They asked because they miss him, thats understandable. Children miss their parents when their off at work for a day. Its natural. But sometimes, its necessary to elevate your stock in life, and sometimes people think thats more important than being their every second of their child's life. And looking through it from an analytical point of view, whats 6 out of a 100?
We are trying to judge how a race of people have witnessed the dawn of not one, not two, but three centuries before they get even winded.

The children miss V because he was a GOOD parent. Not because a HUGE time has passed. If your a good parent, your children will miss you everyday of the week, every hour of the day. I've witnessed it and boy it can be annoying. :smallamused:



As for the latter, it seemed something along the lines of irony, espicially when he said, "Oh-." Perhaps sarcasm? He said "Oh" because V had a chance to prove his love and commitment, but had more important priorities. But meh, whatever.

Thats it for tonight, good night everyone.

[Conuly]

When the kids ask when V will be back, K says "oh, one of these years I'm sure". It really doesn't seem that he's been away for that long from an elf point of view.

I know people whose ex-spouses are real deadbeats who lie through their teeth to their kids. "I'm sure your dad will visit soon." "I know Mom didn't mean to forget your birthday, things just came up." "Well, he hasn't been gone that long, right?"

"I'm sure he'll come back one of these years" seems likely to fit in the same category - when your little kids ask where "other parent" is, you don't say "Off ignoring his/her responsibilities and not thinking about you, that's for sure!" you say "They'll be back soon." That's called being a grown-up.


The children miss V because he was a GOOD parent.

Don't kid yourself too much. Children will miss their parents even if their parents are terrible parents, especially if they're still young. At any rate, it's hard to be a good parent if you're not there. Kyrie said aloud that V had left "me to raise our children". You don't say that when your partner's been gone a short or understandable period of time.


Not to mention the fact that, last I recall, the entire possibly world ending conflict was based on the faults of that handwave.

Yeah, really.

I don't get how we can condemn the ABD for killing V's family (who knows? maybe Kyrie is really evil! Maybe the kids would've grown up evil!) in revenge, but not V killing 25% of all black dragons - for whatEVER reason!

Maybe fantasy worlds allow double standards, but I never have liked them.

[Lissou]

"I'm sure he'll come back one of these years" seems likely to fit in the same category - when your little kids ask where "other parent" is, you don't say "Off ignoring his/her responsibilities and not thinking about you, that's for sure!" you say "They'll be back soon." That's called being a grown-up.

I was referring to the fact that K said "one of these YEARS" when the expression as we know it is "one of these DAYS", giving the impression that a year really isn't a long time at all.

And I do think that asking for divorce means you think the person is rational enough and cares enough. Imagine someone crazy enough to ask a divorce from, say, Xykon. He'd just kill them and his whole family out of spite.
If your spouse is crazy and evil and you suspect they might not care if you and your children die, you don't do something that requires them to be non-violent and reasonable: you don't trust them to be and you run away with your kids so they can't find you.

V is already away and might not come back from a while. K is actually causing him to come back. If V was such a danger, why on Earth would K do that?

[Conuly]

V is already away and might not come back from a while. K is actually causing him to come back. If V was such a danger, why on Earth would K do that?

Because recent events have proven, as far as Kyrie is concerned, that V's family will never be first, second, or even third down on the list of priorities. I'd divorce over that.

Besides, who knows what precautions have been taken to keep Kyrie and kids safe from V at this time?

[Kish]

Just to address a side issue here: I do not believe Inkyrius believes Vaarsuvius is far gone enough to actually hurt him/her or their children. S/he has plenty of grounds for divorce without going that far.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I wonder what these will be, any suggestions?

With what she knows happened I'd think she could first argue:

A. The life V leads has led to his/her family being placed in jeopardy due to V's vengeful enemies seeking to harm his/her loved ones (of course one might ask whether being divorced will stop that).

or

B. In stopping the ABD V exhibited behavior/actions/etc that made Kyrie concerned for the wellbeing of himself/herself and the children (if she wanted to go that far).

or

C. Or alternatively in stopping the ABD V exhibited behavior/actions/etc that just made him/her feel V had changed in his/her absence and was no longer the person that he/she wishes to remain in a long distance relationship with.

And not knowing about legal/political/religious considerations in Elven marriage perhaps selling your soul does constitute grounds for divorce - especially if Kyrie is of a good alignment and not neutral like V.

Of course it also depends on how draconian divorce laws are. If they are anything like our modern world (in places) then Kyrie just saying she/he doesn't want to be married to him/her any more should be enough (the old I.D.). She/he shouldn't be forced to remain married if she/he really doesn't want to be.

[Katana_Geldar]

I am thinking Elven divorce laws may be a bit more liberal given the longevity of Elves.

[Mystic Muse]

If I was in V's position I'd argue

A,my group is currently trying to save the world. we are battling against a powermad Lich who is trying to unlock the power of a being of utter chaos and if he does so he may eventually simply destroy the world because he finds it is boring him.

B. I leased my soul for a certain amount of time to get the power to save you. This gave me access to branches of magic I didn't have previously and that's why I don't consistently teleport back to you. If I had not done this you and both our Children would currently be entrapped in soul gems and I would have to continually plane hop in order to find the dragon, find your whereabouts and crush the gems. This all happened because the dragon's offspring was trying to eat the rest of my group and so naturally I killed it in response.

C. I Teleported away to save a fleet of people who were currently starving and to destroy said powermad Lich. I succeeded in my first endeavour but failed in the second. If it weren't for this Lich I gladly would have stayed behind after informing the rest of the group out of common courtesy.

D. I wanted to make sure nobody ever threatened my family again so I used an epic level necromancy spell to wipe out any black dragon with ties to that one. If I hadn't done this I would have had to consistently sold my soul each and every time one of these dragons found out about their family member. this is ignoring for a second the fact that I can't possibly know every time one of these dragons threatens to kill you. I only found out this time because it appeared to me first telling me of its intentions.

these are my arguments. I don't suspect they'd hold up in a court but if nothing else I'd want my spouse and children to know why everything happened.

[Katana_Geldar]

Yes, but you can throw at V that he is STILL rather emotionally unstable and has been for quite some time, soul splices or no soul splices. Based on events we have seen, how do we know V isn't going to lash out anytime soon?

Just playing devil's advocate here.

[Mystic Muse]

I have no clue. I'd mainly want to explain to my spouse why everything happened the way it did and would apologize.

man. I want to make a joke concerning devil's advocate but religion is banned on these boards. ah well wasn't that funny anyway.

[Katana_Geldar]

Sometimes saying that you lost control is an excuse for not taking responsibility.

[doliest]

Umm to the people saying those six years aren't much, the current timescale puts that as coming out to one year in human years. That still a long time to be away on a business trip. I've also decided to point out something a large number of people seem to have missed; Kyrie didn't sign up to marry an adventure, V only recently decided to become one. Kyrie married an apprentice wizard/ wizard who was largely attempting to gain power via study.

[Lissou]

Just to address a side issue here: I do not believe Inkyrius believes Vaarsuvius is far gone enough to actually hurt him/her or their children. S/he has plenty of grounds for divorce without going that far.

That's what I was trying to say, yes. K doesn't think of V as a Xykon-like threat. S/he just wants a divorce, which happens all the time in our world where most people aren't evil.

Someone said that whoever said "If K thought of V as an evil monster, K wouln't ask for a divorce" was being ironic. I was pointing out that it is, in my opinion, a valid statement.

EDIT: Oh, also, I'm a bit surprised by this thread. I always thought wanting a divorce was ground enough to get it. I mean, if you want to break up, nobody can force you to stay together, right?
Now, grounds for keeping custody of the kids might be a different issue, but since V is off adventuring, it makes sense anyways, soul-splice or not.

[Katana_Geldar]

The comic has already established that divorces (at least in human law) need grounds.

Also, no-fault divorces are a relatively new thing. Why do you think there's not nearly as many private detectives these days?

[Kalbron]

Wait, aren't those reasons for staying together? I'd say getting divorced from an irrational, insanely evil person who doesn't care about his family is a good idea, not a bad one.

What I'm trying to say is that if someone is irrational, evil, and doesn't care about their family, the last thing you want them to do is be pissed off about being summoned away from their current activities.

Considering V barely comes home, the best idea that Kyrie could have if V was irrational, evil and didn't care about them would be to run and hide. Not provoke him with a crazy lawyer. You don't poke bears with sticks the same as you don't provoke insane, evil archmagi who just killed a dragon that was toying with you.

If, however, V is not irrational, is not evil, and does care about his family, then divorce becomes a logical option.

[David Argall]

Whether the plan would have worked or not is irrelevant. That V believed that she had an alternative is all that is required for the purpose of determining whether she "freely chose to sell her soul" or "had no choice but to sell her soul."
When the alternative is to make things worse by getting myself killed as well, I still really have no choice [or alternately still have the two choices of doing something effective or doing nothing.] The fiendish plan does not change the moral situation.



I always thought wanting a divorce was ground enough to get it.
Depends on the society. All regard divorce as a bad thing, and make at least token efforts to prevent it. Some absolutely forbid it.
A common theme in simpler societies is that a purpose of marriage is to make everybody kin, and thus giving everybody a duty of playing nice. In such a society, a divorce threatens to make everybody strangers, and thus threatening. A high divorce rate could destroy society.
In poorer societies, marriage was almost mandatory if the children were to survive. Again, divorce threatened massive harm, and was often greatly restricted.
Now we are talking about chaotic elves, and so we can assume more casual divorce laws, but we do have the two kids involved, and that means all bets are off. Divorce may be easy, but it could also be nearly impossible.

[Milandros]

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but, yes, exactly. V's soul is V's business and no one else's. Inky's whole performance (especially in 642) was just pure self-centered obnoxiousness. Whine, whine, whine, guilt-trip, guilt-trip, do this, do that, I guess you just don't love me, boohoohoo.

For all those who think Inkyrius is being whiny, pushy and obnoxious, honestly tell us: are you married? If you are, do you think you have no claim on any form of shared destiny with your spouse? And would you accept the following:

Your spouse takes a job that requires them to be away for an extended time. It's something they've always wanted to do. You agree, a little concerned that this is more important to them than their family, but you accept this for now. They leave, and you don't see them for over a year. You are raising the children.

A huge, dangerous armed man bursts in, beats you around, breaks your childrens' legs and then says he's going to kill you all because of what your spouse did to him.

Your spouse bursts in, covered in satanic tattoos, accompanied by two silent partners carrying satanic regalia, and, on killing your attacker, lets him know that they've also wiped out his entire family as punishment.

You tell the people with your partner to leave them alone, at which point your spouse explains that they're dealing with them because they had no other choice, after angrily brandishing their weapon at you. When you accept that maybe that's true, but now please tell them to go and let's talk about it, they say sorry, they're going to continue with them, there's lots for them to do, they can do well out of this, and that they're going. No indications of ever returning, no goodbye, comfort or even particular notice of the injured children. Just an "I'm sorry" then out the door.

Of course, your heart would no doubt overflow with love and happiness and then you'd settle down to raise your children for however long it takes until your missing partner returns home.
I, on the other hand, would be severely annoyed and wonder what had happened to the wonderful person I had married. I'd then be truly concerned about the future - even if my spouse came home, I wouldn't be sure if my children were going to be safe with all this dark and evil stuff (remember, there's no indication to Inkyrius that V was ever going to end V's fiendish deal), and whether or not more violence would follow. Saying let's make this split official so we can move on would definitely be an option.

[Bago!!!]

I know people whose ex-spouses are real deadbeats who lie through their teeth to their kids. "I'm sure your dad will visit soon." "I know Mom didn't mean to forget your birthday, things just came up." "Well, he hasn't been gone that long, right?"

"I'm sure he'll come back one of these years" seems likely to fit in the same category - when your little kids ask where "other parent" is, you don't say "Off ignoring his/her responsibilities and not thinking about you, that's for sure!" you say "They'll be back soon." That's called being a grown-up.
That may be part of it but it certainly doesn't mean V has been gone for an incredibly long time peroid. One of these years, like Lis said, is still insignificant to a race that, I've said constantly, can live longer than most empires.
Seems like we compare all races to how we percieve things. I mean, if a race lives for only eight years, then they must obviously value their years more so than we do. To simply say that they feel the same way about 1 that we do (its a loss but not a major loss) is totally arrogant.


Don't kid yourself too much. Children will miss their parents even if their parents are terrible parents, especially if they're still young. At any rate, it's hard to be a good parent if you're not there. Kyrie said aloud that V had left "me to raise our children". You don't say that when your partner's been gone a short or understandable period of time. I kid myself not at all. I only presume, much like we are all doing. I know I could very well be wrong, but that doesn't mean I can't guess. I can only assume with the smiles and the macaroni picture of V that they loved him.

To the topic at hand, a short and understandable period of time to us (in my opinion, it varies on the people) is a week, or two. This is assuming that everything was discussed and talked over in advance which, assuming V loves to hear is voice, was done.


Yeah, really.

I don't get how we can condemn the ABD for killing V's family (who knows? maybe Kyrie is really evil! Maybe the kids would've grown up evil!) in revenge, but not V killing 25% of all black dragons - for whatEVER reason!

Maybe fantasy worlds allow double standards, but I never have liked them. I do condemn both V for his actions as well as the dragon, I do not play favorites. I do understand V's actions, as well as the dragons, but I do not condone it.

Double standards? Explain.


I was referring to the fact that K said "one of these YEARS" when the expression as we know it is "one of these DAYS", giving the impression that a year really isn't a long time at all.This is what I've been trying to say! GAH!:smallfurious:

[John Cribati]

Let's see now...

Left family alone for 6 years (not alot, based on how slowly elves develop, but still) Negligence, in a twisted sort of way.
Made a Faustian Deal. Generally bad/criminal activity.
Ignored the fact that hir children's legs were broken. Negligence again.
Attempted Genocide
Necromancy in general
Finally, Kyrie actually said something along the lines of "If you value our relationship, release the splices," V did not release the splices

[spargel]

For all those who think Inkyrius is being whiny, pushy and obnoxious, honestly tell us: are you married? If you are, do you think you have no claim on any form of shared destiny with your spouse? And would you accept the following:

Your spouse takes a job that requires them to be away for an extended time. It's something they've always wanted to do. You agree, a little concerned that this is more important to them than their family, but you accept this for now. They leave, and you don't see them for over a year. You are raising the children.

A huge, dangerous armed man bursts in, beats you around, breaks your childrens' legs and then says he's going to kill you all because of what your spouse did to him.

Your spouse bursts in, covered in satanic tattoos, accompanied by two silent partners carrying satanic regalia, and, on killing your attacker, lets him know that they've also wiped out his entire family as punishment.

You tell the people with your partner to leave them alone, at which point your spouse explains that they're dealing with them because they had no other choice, after angrily brandishing their weapon at you. When you accept that maybe that's true, but now please tell them to go and let's talk about it, they say sorry, they're going to continue with them, there's lots for them to do, they can do well out of this, and that they're going. No indications of ever returning, no goodbye, comfort or even particular notice of the injured children. Just an "I'm sorry" then out the door.

Of course, your heart would no doubt overflow with love and happiness and then you'd settle down to raise your children for however long it takes until your missing partner returns home.
I, on the other hand, would be severely annoyed and wonder what had happened to the wonderful person I had married. I'd then be truly concerned about the future - even if my spouse came home, I wouldn't be sure if my children were going to be safe with all this dark and evil stuff (remember, there's no indication to Inkyrius that V was ever going to end V's fiendish deal), and whether or not more violence would follow. Saying let's make this split official so we can move on would definitely be an option.

Considering that my spouse would have just saved my life, I'd at least be a little more understanding and less self-centered.

[Shale]

Saved your life and then killed entire families, is the key sequence of events there.

[spargel]

Saved your life and then killed entire families, is the key sequence of events there.

Then why didn't Irkyrius say anything about that if she was so bothered by it?

[Starbuck_II]

Let's see now...

Left family alone for 6 years (not alot, based on how slowly elves develop, but still) Negligence, in a twisted sort of way.
Made a Faustian Deal. Generally bad/criminal activity.
Ignored the fact that hir children's legs were broken. Negligence again.
Attempted Genocide
Necromancy in general
Finally, Kyrie actually said something along the lines of "If you value our relationship, release the splices," V did not release the splices

What could V do? Divine magic heals wounds.

[Scarlet Knight]

I think we have to know more about elven social rules before we judge.

We get the impression from Durkon that lawfuls like he would not grant divorces in any but the most serious events. Do your duty, especially if it makes you miserable.

But elves may be more chaotic with a marriage like:
"Kyrie, do you promise take Vaarsuvius, to have & to hold , until you no longer feel cool about it, in case there's sickness, or in case you get poorer, til death claims you at least once?"

:smallwink:

[Fireballing_Fun]

I wonder what these will be, any suggestions?

Irreconcilable differences, they are presumably good or neutral, V is currently of evil alignment (in my opinion).

Abandonment, V is never at home.

Child Support, has V sent any of his proceeds from adventuring back home to support the children?

Reckless endangerment, it can be shown that V's adventuring career has caused potential danger and actual trauma to V's family, a fact that he has failed to express sufficient concern or regret over.

[Code Black]

Look at the sequence of events from Kyrie's point of view. She was most likely left with the idea that V places more importance on power, force and destruction than on love and family. (S)he probably thinks V's become little more than a magically endowed mercenary. If I saw things from hir point of view, I probably would have thought V was on the path to becoming a bloodthirsty tyrant.

Regardless of the whole truth, that's what she saw, and those are her grounds.

[John Cribati]

What could V do? Divine magic heals wounds.

He could poof them to a cleric. Possibly poof a cleric to them.
With incredible ease, I might add.

[MReav]

He could poof them to a cleric. Possibly poof a cleric to them.
With incredible ease, I might add.

Or use various Summon Monster effects to summon someone who could, there are a dozen creatures V could summon that could heal.

[Theodoriph]

He doesn't want to be married to her anymore.


Those are very good grounds for divorce. :smalltongue:

[baerdith]

Let's see...

And we don't even know what went down BEFORE V left the first time. If my relationship was already a bit rocky, and then my spouse left me raising the kids for a long time (six years, one year in elven terms - the point is it's a super long time to be gone) only to come back in an incredibly violent and evil way - gee, I think that'd be the last straw for me.


Well, based on the "20 years in diapers" comment, 6 years is more like 2 and half months.......

[Shale]

You were toilet trained at the age of nine months?

[baerdith]

You were toilet trained at the age of nine months?

Yes, weren't you?

[Sholos]

What I'm trying to say is that if someone is irrational, evil, and doesn't care about their family, the last thing you want them to do is be pissed off about being summoned away from their current activities.
That's exactly like saying that if you're in an abusive relationship, it's better not to aggravate the person by trying to get away because that might make it worse. In fact, I'd say that's exactly how I interpret it, and I think that's a deplorable thought process that leads to far more suffering.


Considering V barely comes home, the best idea that Kyrie could have if V was irrational, evil and didn't care about them would be to run and hide. Not provoke him with a crazy lawyer. You don't poke bears with sticks the same as you don't provoke insane, evil archmagi who just killed a dragon that was toying with you.
In my opinion, taking V before a court of law is probably the safest thing to do. If you've got a crazy axe-murderer after you, is it safer to keep running from him and trying to hide, or go to the police? Idiot horror movie plots not being considered. I'd say going into protective custody is a far better idea.


If, however, V is not irrational, is not evil, and does care about his family, then divorce becomes a logical option.
If V is rational, not evil, and cares about the family, the best option is to contact him in some manner to talk further about it. If V is missing any of those qualities, that's when divorce becomes a pretty good idea.
_______________________________

Well, based on the "20 years in diapers" comment, 6 years is more like 2 and half months.......

If 20 years was like 2 1/2 months, then it wouldn't have bothered V all that much, now would it? I will now point out that V said that it was a disadvantage. Specifically a disadvantage of being part of a long lived race. Implying very heavily that, while they live longer and mature slower, they still perceive time at the same rate. They may have different opinions on it, but it still flows at the same rate, meaning six years is an awfully long time not to have heard from someone.

[Superglucose]

If you read the comics (like I just did) you'll find that these grounds for divorce are due to a complete misunderstanding of just what exactly V has been up to.

You can see clearly that V's spouse was upset because V wouldn't give up V's power after V's family was safe. V had perfectly legitimate reasons not to give up the power (V was actively trying to solve a series of problems, i.e. the fleet issue, the Haley issue, and the Xykon issue, with V's newfound power) but V's spouse refused to hear them.

Incidentally, I think canonically elves live to be like 350, so six years is approximately equivalent to a year and about a third in human terms. We also know that for a decent amount of that time, V was cavorting around with Roy (possibly as much as a year) and if V's spouse knew what V was doing during that time (i.e., saving the universe) V's spouse would have no grounds to object.

It's like marrying someone who's joining the military and then suing for divorce when your spouse's job keeps them in the field for two years. Not their fault, you jerk! Only it's even worse, because this is LITERALLY a fight for everyone's existence.

[Katana_Geldar]

Considering that my spouse would have just saved my life, I'd at least be a little more understanding and less self-centered.

She was quite understanding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html). Given my experience in literature of people who have done horrible things to save the ones they love, Kyrie reacted quite well.

"Thank you Suvie for making this terrible sacrifice to save us. Now can you please limit your debt to these fiends if that was why you really made it in the first place?"

Fixing everyone else came LATER, when the two remaining soul splices pointed out there were still more spells left. V might not have had a choice to MAKE the debt, but he did have a choice to KEEP it.

[JonahFalcon]

I wonder what these will be, any suggestions?

Irreconcilable differences.

[Shale]

Yes, weren't you?

The average age is closer to two years.

[Omegonthesane]

She was quite understanding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html). Given my experience in literature of people who have done horrible things to save the ones they love, Kyrie reacted quite well.

"Thank you Suvie for making this terrible sacrifice to save us. Now can you please limit your debt to these fiends if that was why you really made it in the first place?"

Fixing everyone else came LATER, when the two remaining soul splices pointed out there were still more spells left. V might not have had a choice to MAKE the debt, but he did have a choice to KEEP it.

Did V have a sensible choice, though? She had the raw power needed to kill Xykon. Having the power to save the world and not using it, no matter how good the reason and how evil the power, is probably an eternal damnation offence in itself, regardless of the (then apparent) probability of the Snarl literally destroying everything if Xykon's plans went ahead.

Also, bear in mind that Kyrie didn't even listen to the answer when she asked "why don't you give it up?" This can be blamed on the stress of the situation, but it loses her points in the divorce court, and indeed she might possibly decide not to divorce if she learns the entirety of the facts of the matter.

[Katana_Geldar]

V still had the opportunity to prove Kyrie wrong. The fact that V had a choice to give up the soul splices after the event could come up in court as well.

I am also wondering if there is some legal precedent in Elven law about people who have sold their soul, given that even Kyrie knows about things like that. Aren't their equivalents in real life about parents who are under the influence of drugs, part of a brain-washing cult or generally in a dangerous environment?

[Bago!!!]

*@Super:
No, they can live up to more than 700 years old. I think they could even age up to 1000. Not only that, but they are considered an adult by elvens society around 110.

[spargel]

She was quite understanding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html). Given my experience in literature of people who have done horrible things to save the ones they love, Kyrie reacted quite well.

"Thank you Suvie for making this terrible sacrifice to save us. Now can you please limit your debt to these fiends if that was why you really made it in the first place?"


Uh, lets see. V saves him, and he immediately goes "Oh, you sold your soul to fiends. You suck."

"But I still need to find-" interrupted by two big no's.

I wonder who's the bigger jerk in this relationship. The only thing V loses points for is not staying around to help a little more, and she was operating on limited time.



Fixing everyone else came LATER, when the two remaining soul splices pointed out there were still more spells left. V might not have had a choice to MAKE the debt, but he did have a choice to KEEP it.

She made the only sensible choice. If she dropped the splice, I'd call her an even bigger idiot for screwing over her priorities. Although she could have at least said something like "Sorry, I have to save the world, we'll talk later."

[Bago!!!]

Uh, lets see. V saves him, and he immediately goes "Oh, you sold your soul to fiends. You suck."

"But I still need to find-" interrupted by two big no's.

I wonder who's the bigger jerk in this relationship. The only thing V loses points for is not staying around to help a little more, and she was operating on limited time.

We have a common baker, who has no real knowledge or experiance on anything with the fiends or what not except what the rest of society's preconceptions are. Of course he's gonna make judgements, of course he's not gonna be all, "Oh my! You saved us V!" No, one rarely looks at the upside when one sees a scary black robed mage whose very appearance screams "EVIL! CHAOS! DEATH! EMO OUTFIT!" I mean, you can say all you want about appearances and love, but I will be honest with myself. If I knew someone and he came from out of the blue, in a prison uniform and his hair shaved off, I would be like, WTH!

After the two big no no, V seemed to be on the verge of exploding with rage. That imply's that he lacks self-control. I wouldn't be surpised by the possibility of what would have happened had he did not retain control shortly after.

Neither are jerks. Both have their reasons, jsut that one of them lacks a proper picture of what is really going on, and the other lacks the time to explain everything.


She made the only sensible choice. If she dropped the splice, I'd call her an even bigger idiot for screwing over her priorities. Although she could have at least said something like "Sorry, I have to save the world, we'll talk later." Sensible by your standards, not by everyone elses. Some people would think that Family comes before everything else, and you know what, they have a right for that oppinion.

Sensible? What would be sensible would be to avoid the temptation presented from the fiends in the first place. I know from all my own experiances in so many games, no matter how good a bargain like this sounds, you know that its going to bite you in the but before the game is out. Of course, that is just my own oppinion.

[rewinn]

Has anyone consider the complications if Inky, the Baker's Apprentice, has a Bun in the Oven?

He doesn't want to be married to her anymore.

Those are very good grounds for divorce. :smalltongue:

That's all the story needs, really. We can argue forever whether Inky is being just to V or not. Feelings are feelings and Inky has ample grounds for a change in feelings to be plausible.

Since I am fond of V, I hope the two can patch it up and, considering V has actually grownup quite a lot over the course of this series, it's not unlikely; however, as Blackwing continually hints, V's got a long road coated in broken glass to trudge.


Depends on the society. All regard divorce as a bad thing, and make at least token efforts to prevent it.

Not true. Look at Imperial Rule, Japan under the Shogunate, post-Papist England ... divorce at the will of the Ruler was perfectly okey-dokey.

[Omegonthesane]

Not true. Look at Imperial Rule, Japan under the Shogunate, post-Papist England ... divorce at the will of the Ruler was perfectly okey-dokey.

Probably true for a given value of 'token efforts'. Divorce is a rather extreme option, and therefore other things should be tried first... oh god, I'm lawyering the exact words of an Argall post after midnight.

[spargel]

We have a common baker, who has no real knowledge or experiance on anything with the fiends or what not except what the rest of society's preconceptions are. Of course he's gonna make judgements, of course he's not gonna be all, "Oh my! You saved us V!" No, one rarely looks at the upside when one sees a scary black robed mage whose very appearance screams "EVIL! CHAOS! DEATH! EMO OUTFIT!" I mean, you can say all you want about appearances and love, but I will be honest with myself. If I knew someone and he came from out of the blue, in a prison uniform and his hair shaved off, I would be like, WTH!

After the two big no no, V seemed to be on the verge of exploding with rage. That imply's that he lacks self-control. I wouldn't be surpised by the possibility of what would have happened had he did not retain control shortly after.

Neither are jerks. Both have their reasons, jsut that one of them lacks a proper picture of what is really going on, and the other lacks the time to explain everything.


I can understand Kyrie being a little shocked, but it's really his own fault for not having any information when he interrupts V while she's trying to explain things.



Sensible by your standards, not by everyone elses. Some people would think that Family comes before everything else, and you know what, they have a right for that oppinion.


Sentimental feelings.

The family was perfectly alive and able to recover without V, and if the quest to save the world fails, they'll be dead. Obvious choice?



Sensible? What would be sensible would be to avoid the temptation presented from the fiends in the first place. I know from all my own experiances in so many games, no matter how good a bargain like this sounds, you know that its going to bite you in the but before the game is out. Of course, that is just my own oppinion.

Temporarily leaving your family, who's pretty much safe and able to recover without you, to kill a world-threatening lich is completely heartless and unreasonable, but refusing to make a bargain with fiends, who actually kept their end of the bargain (Or at least the important parts) and allowing your family to be killed and eternally tortured by an ABD is sensible? I suggest you rethink your opinion.

V's bargain actually went pretty well. The fiends gave her what they promised and let her keep her free will while using the power. It's V's own decisions during that splice that mainly screwed her over. If V was just a little bit smarter, she could have killed Xykon and the fiends' plans would be screwed anyways.

[Starbuck_II]

Or use various Summon Monster effects to summon someone who could, there are a dozen creatures V could summon that could heal.

We have no clue if the Conjurer been had those spells prepared: they could be all dimension door/teleporting type spells (Complete Mage, PHB 2, spell compendruim add one so ther are chances there is one of all levels)

[Bago!!!]

I can understand Kyrie being a little shocked, but it's really his own fault for not having any information when he interrupts V while she's trying to explain things.A little shocked? Apparantly you didn't read the part when V destroyed a black dragon's entire family with one spell. Either that or you fail to understand the complications of such a thing.


Sentimental feelings.

The family was perfectly alive and able to recover without V, and if the quest to save the world fails, they'll be dead. Obvious choice?Perfectly alive? I suppose they could keep going but I doubt the term 'perfectly' fits this. Didn't the little children have their leg's broken by some great and terrible beast, who their Kyrie (their current parent) had no power to stop. Did they not witness kyrie became staked to the tree? Did they not look at the dragon destroy their home?

They write books about how theoritical that damage could be if done by a human. But by a monster? Thats just saying trauma. Just because they would heal from that doesn't justify or condone V leaving them. Not in the slightest.


Temporarily leaving your family, who's pretty much safe and able to recover without you, to kill a world-threatening lich is completely heartless and unreasonable, but refusing to make a bargain with fiends, who actually kept their end of the bargain (Or at least the important parts) and allowing your family to be killed and eternally tortured by an ABD is sensible? I suggest you rethink your opinion.

V's bargain actually went pretty well. The fiends gave her what they promised and let her keep her free will while using the power. It's V's own decisions during that splice that mainly screwed her over. If V was just a little bit smarter, she could have killed Xykon and the fiends' plans would be screwed anyways. I believe the fiends made it known that if V had gone to plan B over A, then his family may have been saved. At the very least, their souls would ahve been spared the torment. I do not see any reason to rethink my opinion, though you may wanna tone down your drama and stop warping the facts and my opinion to suit your own means.

Was what V did heartless and unreasonable? No, but he/she really did it for the wrong reasons. He/she did it, because HE/SHE needed to succeed. Good may have been brought from his choice, but he could have provided some knowledge about the location on his own before hand. He/she could have had Durkon resurrect V's family (not sure if you can do that but its possible).

The bargain had its ups, but we are starting to see the consequences of his actions now. The question is, what else do the fiends have in store? Perhaps V's choice made it so that his deed made it impossible for him to be with one or more of the fiends. I know the term is that his soul will be on a lease. But still, it could be that what he did (destroying 1/4th of an entire race and an entire family brutally and without mercy) could qualify for being sentenced to keep the deal for the rest of his time in the after life.

And if V was just a little smarter, he may have realized the fiend's were playing him for the fool. But oh well, what are you gonna do about it.



Now, to address you personally.
I cannot help but notice that I am replying to all of your points but you are only replying to a few of mine. What about the rest? Do you agree or do you disagree? Or do you refuse to acknowledge my points all together?

[Katana_Geldar]

Some people seem to be convinently forgetting about the kids in calling Kyrie selfish. You could say this if you take the kids out of the equation, but it makes things profoundly different if children are there.

Is it too much to ask for kids to be in an enivornment with someone who is non-scary and doesn't fly off the handle and potentially kill you?

More than likely, Kyrie still thinks V is under the influence of the splices. It's not that hard to predict that there will be another meeting, perhaps with their lawyers attending too, and V asks Kyrie to forgive everything. Here we will see Kyrie's reasons, and not just because V is an adventurer.

[Lamech]

If after Kyrie had processed that V was his V, he would have asked her to "Summon a cleric", if he was worried about the childern, or "We need to get the evil influence away from you" if he was worried about V. He did not. He began to lecture her. I think that shows that he was not highly concerned about the childern either, or that his annoyance at V clouded his judgement.

V should have teleported the kids to a cleric regardless before rushing off to fix everything, she didn't act great here either. I think Kyrie will probably claim this and selling V selling her soul was the reason for the divorce. If V spins it right, she shouldn't have any trouble making Kyrie look like the bad guy.

[Silverraptor]

Well I just reread what happened to V and Kyrie and now I think that it's practically impossible for them not to get a divorce. Or atleast getting close to it. If someone else said something like this, please don't kill me. I didn't bother looking through the entire thread.

[Katana_Geldar]

If after Kyrie had processed that V was his V, he would have asked her to "Summon a cleric", if he was worried about the childern, or "We need to get the evil influence away from you" if he was worried about V. He did not. He began to lecture her. I think that shows that he was not highly concerned about the childern either, or that his annoyance at V clouded his judgement.

V should have teleported the kids to a cleric regardless before rushing off to fix everything, she didn't act great here either. I think Kyrie will probably claim this and selling V selling her soul was the reason for the divorce. If V spins it right, she shouldn't have any trouble making Kyrie look like the bad guy.

Somehow, given the guilt V is feeling, I don't think he would spin it that way.

[Sholos]

I think people are perhaps missing the point of Kyrie's "lecture". The entire point was to again point out that what was most important to V at the time was the power. The power to do what V wanted to do. Even V's statement, "I am.... ..... sorry," serves to illustrate this. Why? Because V is apologizing that he truly does desire the power more than his family. That's not a "I'm sorry for causing you grief," it's an "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I have more important things to do than to discuss this with you." Now, when you consider that V had beforehand agreed with Roy that diverting from the main quest to help family (remember the discussion after they got done with saving Roy's sister?), this is just slightly hypocritical and just underlines the fact that what V really cares about is saving the world by himself.

[spargel]

A little shocked? Apparantly you didn't read the part when V destroyed a black dragon's entire family with one spell. Either that or you fail to understand the complications of such a thing.


And did you see Kyrie say anything like "You killed that dragon's entire family! You're a monster!" If she was shocked by that, you'd think it would be one of the first things she'd talk about.



Perfectly alive? I suppose they could keep going but I doubt the term 'perfectly' fits this. Didn't the little children have their leg's broken by some great and terrible beast, who their Kyrie (their current parent) had no power to stop. Did they not witness kyrie became staked to the tree? Did they not look at the dragon destroy their home?

They write books about how theoritical that damage could be if done by a human. But by a monster? Thats just saying trauma. Just because they would heal from that doesn't justify or condone V leaving them. Not in the slightest.


They have magical healing, and damage seems to work a lot differently than in the real world, so there's no injuries that can't be quickly fixed. Whatever trauma they have, they can get over it later.



I believe the fiends made it known that if V had gone to plan B over A, then his family may have been saved. At the very least, their souls would ahve been spared the torment. I do not see any reason to rethink my opinion, though you may wanna tone down your drama and stop warping the facts and my opinion to suit your own means.

Was what V did heartless and unreasonable? No, but he/she really did it for the wrong reasons. He/she did it, because HE/SHE needed to succeed. Good may have been brought from his choice, but he could have provided some knowledge about the location on his own before hand. He/she could have had Durkon resurrect V's family (not sure if you can do that but its possible).


If V was to put her family first, going with the soul splice would be the way the go. Do you really want me to get started on everything that's wrong with the other plan?

She simply had multiple reasons for taking the soul splice. Just a few moments earlier, she completely rejected Qarr's temptation.

And you'd think being killed, even if you're resurrected, would be even more traumatizing. The other plan was already riskier to begin with, and any person who puts their family first would choose to take the least risky choice.



The bargain had its ups, but we are starting to see the consequences of his actions now. The question is, what else do the fiends have in store? Perhaps V's choice made it so that his deed made it impossible for him to be with one or more of the fiends. I know the term is that his soul will be on a lease. But still, it could be that what he did (destroying 1/4th of an entire race and an entire family brutally and without mercy) could qualify for being sentenced to keep the deal for the rest of his time in the after life.

And if V was just a little smarter, he may have realized the fiend's were playing him for the fool. But oh well, what are you gonna do about it.


The fiends really didn't trick V that much. They gave her the power, and she was able to control it without having some kind of magical corruption problems.

If V was a little smarter, she would have seen that the other plan was ridiculous (Even Qarr could see that) and gone with the soul splice anyways. And she would be much more likely to kill Xykon and screw the forces of evil over pretty badly.



Now, to address you personally.
I cannot help but notice that I am replying to all of your points but you are only replying to a few of mine. What about the rest? Do you agree or do you disagree? Or do you refuse to acknowledge my points all together?

I attempt to blanket your points together and respond to several of them at once.

[Superglucose]

Well I just reread what happened to V and Kyrie and now I think that it's practically impossible for them not to get a divorce. Or atleast getting close to it.
I think you're very, very wrong. V has some rather excellent and compelling reasons that most of the complaints occured (even "I was possessed at the time"), and has very clearly substantially changed (for the better) because of the event.

As long as they have a nice conversation and communicate, I suspect their marriage will be just fine.

[Katana_Geldar]

You're forgetting that V is still rather unstable, as we have just witnessed.

[spargel]

V's pretty much the way she used to be, so it should work out fine.

[Pyron]

I wonder what these will be, any suggestions?

I have a theory. My guess is the Famlicide spell had a hidden material component - similar to another epic spell of destruction (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/11/27/8-bit-chronicles-3-of-3/). :smallsmile:

[Milandros]

Considering that my spouse would have just saved my life, I'd at least be a little more understanding and less self-centered.

Self centered? She's so scared of him she shoves her kids behind her and prepares to fight to the death - that's a baker fighting an epic-powered infernal-pacted dark mage "to the death" - in order to try to protect them.

Then, when threatened with violence (and raising magical power and looking like you're about to blast while yelling is pretty much the same as pulling back the hammer on the gun and levelling it) she says "ok, I accept that you had no choice, thank you for saving us, but please [put the gun down now] drop this pact with the forces of darkness and evil, for me and the kids". Then, resurrecting the absence argument, she says she's scared he cares more for power, even blatantly evil power, then for his family. His response to that is basically "yeah, sorry" and then he flies away, leaving her, with her wounds, to get her broken-limbed children to some sort of medical attention.

Yeah, Inkyrius is the self-obsessed selfish one here. Right.


Whether or not V.'s actual actions are justified, I. will certainly have seen V. in a very, very bad light - and when you're already in a relationship suffering from long separation, have issues with your partner being far more devoted to their hobby or job than you, and then see them in a sudden, violent, cruel and uncaring light, after which they head off back to their hobby/job.

It doesn't matter whether V.'s quest to save the world is more important, any more than it matters if your wife's quest to cure malaria or invent an AIDS vaccine is more important. If your husband or wife was distant, spent months to years in far off lands studying without a letter back and left you to raise the kids, you'd be thinking about whether or not you might find a more loving relationship elsewhere. If the only time you then saw them was when an enemy they made attacked you, they reappeared, killed him cruelly, then slipped out the door asking you to deal with the authorities while your children cowered in fear and you begged them not to go, I bet you'd consider that relationship over. A formal divorce is a polite nicety, a last gesture of decency, rather than making your estranged partner come home months or years later to find somebody else in what was once his or her bed.

[Katana_Geldar]

Self centered? She's so scared of him she shoves her kids behind her and prepares to fight to the death - that's a baker fighting an epic-powered infernal-pacted dark mage "to the death" - in order to try to protect them.

More than that, that's a parent protecting their children from harm. I seem to recall a mother who attacked a bear with her bare hands when her kids were threatened by it.

[Milandros]

Addendum:

That's not to say that they can't reconcile. V. will have to talk to I., not inform I. of V.'s decisions as V. flips in and out. V.'s recognition of V.'s own bone-headedness would help a lot, and a significant gesture would as well - but mostly, just talking and explaining what's really been happening, how they are feeling, admitting mistakes, and agreeing to work to resolve issues can go a suprisingly long way.

Or, alternatively, V. could quite likely decide that, like Eugene, V. really doesn't want family ties and a family life. It's entirely within the scope of V.'s personality to decide V.'d really rather devote Vself to the study of magic without other duties.

[Milandros]

More than that, that's a parent protecting their children from harm. I seem to recall a mother who attacked a bear with her bare hands when her kids were threatened by it.

Being the daddy of the most wonderful, beautiful, clever, funny, happy three year old girl ever :), plus expecting twins at the end of November, I can confidently say, yeah, parents get irrational like that. I know I certainly am - I remember throwing myself between an out-of-control firework that came off its stick and her, no thought required (and no harm done, it went elsewhere).

[spargel]

Self centered? She's so scared of him she shoves her kids behind her and prepares to fight to the death - that's a baker fighting an epic-powered infernal-pacted dark mage "to the death" - in order to try to protect them.

Then, when threatened with violence (and raising magical power and looking like you're about to blast while yelling is pretty much the same as pulling back the hammer on the gun and levelling it) she says "ok, I accept that you had no choice, thank you for saving us, but please [put the gun down now] drop this pact with the forces of darkness and evil, for me and the kids". Then, resurrecting the absence argument, she says she's scared he cares more for power, even blatantly evil power, then for his family. His response to that is basically "yeah, sorry" and then he flies away, leaving her, with her wounds, to get her broken-limbed children to some sort of medical attention.

Yeah, Inkyrius is the self-obsessed selfish one here. Right.


Sorry, but scared people generally don't try to make their spouse feel guilty for saving their lives in a sarcastic tone and provoking the person you're afraid of to be angry with you, and not even give them a chance to explain themselves.



Whether or not V.'s actual actions are justified, I. will certainly have seen V. in a very, very bad light - and when you're already in a relationship suffering from long separation, have issues with your partner being far more devoted to their hobby or job than you, and then see them in a sudden, violent, cruel and uncaring light, after which they head off back to their hobby/job.

It doesn't matter whether V.'s quest to save the world is more important, any more than it matters if your wife's quest to cure malaria or invent an AIDS vaccine is more important. If your husband or wife was distant, spent months to years in far off lands studying without a letter back and left you to raise the kids, you'd be thinking about whether or not you might find a more loving relationship elsewhere. If the only time you then saw them was when an enemy they made attacked you, they reappeared, killed him cruelly, then slipped out the door asking you to deal with the authorities while your children cowered in fear and you begged them not to go, I bet you'd consider that relationship over. A formal divorce is a polite nicety, a last gesture of decency, rather than making your estranged partner come home months or years later to find somebody else in what was once his or her bed.

Um, no. I'd give my spouse the chance to explain hirself and consider hir own interests and needs.

[Starbuck_II]

{Scrubbed}

[Katana_Geldar]

Heh, you just admitted that parents can be irrational. :smallcool:

Besides, we're getting a little off the topic here, V's motivations in the soul splices and her mate's reactions to them at the time aren't really the topic here. What is the topic is the actual divorce, whether it WILL actually go through, V and Kyrie agree to a separation or settle out of court.

I have the feeling though that in terms of custody, the court is going to look at the best of the kids and not take into account any ambigious morality on the part of V. That's why Kyrie is trying to have full custody, I reckon she has a good case and V probably knows it too.

[Lizard Lord]

It wasn't reckless behavior that endangered her children, but killing the first Black Dragon (which is SoP for adventurers, you marry a PC then you take that risk).

Not everyone with a PC class is an adventure. Pretty sure V was an apprentice mage and content with learning from books and his/her master when s/he got married.

[Shale]

Having just reread the strips in question, how in the hell do people think Inkyrius didn't have any particular reaction to Familicide?!

I's reaction when when V frees hir and the children after killing the black dragon: confusion and fear. "Suvie? Is that you? Great Elven gods have mercy, what happened to you?"

I's reaction immediately after Familicide: utter horror, combined with the assumption -- not fear, assumption, as it seemed to be the only reasonable explanation for what s/he just saw -- that V has been possessed by demons. ""STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM US! Leave my mate's body, demons, and begone! I don't know exactly what you have done to my Vaarsuvius..."
Note that this was before Iknyrius found out that V had sold hir soul.

When you see your spouse do something so horrible that your initial impulse was to attribute it to freaking demonic possession, that might make you re-evaluate your marriage.

[Bago!!!]

And did you see Kyrie say anything like "You killed that dragon's entire family! You're a monster!" If she was shocked by that, you'd think it would be one of the first things she'd talk about.

Perhaps not, but he certainly did say, and these are his exact words... *Lalalalalalaaaaa* Ready! *Ahem*
"STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM US!!!"
I think that sums everything he witnessed just fine.


They have magical healing, and damage seems to work a lot differently than in the real world, so there's no injuries that can't be quickly fixed. Whatever trauma they have, they can get over it later.
Physical damage can be healed, yes. But when you have to carry the children to someoen who can heal on foot, its not throughly pleasant. And not only that, the pain is still present, and these are children and a baker's apprentice. They don't have nerves of steel, so their forced to cope with it.

I know some friends who have gone through terrible things as children. And years have passed and their still not comfortable with the incident. I can only imagine what they were feeling at the moment. To say that whatever damage that has occured to a child that they can get over later is an insensitive. They are feeling the pain NOW. They need their parent, NOW. Not tomorrow, not the day after, NOW. Being a parent means being their for your children when they need you if you can.


If V was to put her family first, going with the soul splice would be the way the go. Do you really want me to get started on everything that's wrong with the other plan?

She simply had multiple reasons for taking the soul splice. Just a few moments earlier, she completely rejected Qarr's temptation.

And you'd think being killed, even if you're resurrected, would be even more traumatizing. The other plan was already riskier to begin with, and any person who puts their family first would choose to take the least risky choice.The other plan? THe other plan was as good as the other one. Albeit, V may have lost his family to the dragon but they would ahve been able to pass on once V's master made it there to dispatch the dragon. The other plan could ahve worked.

Qarr's offer hardly had any sort of tangible and real benefits. They were merely new ideas. And its as they say. And whatever the reasons, he could have still had Qarr deliver a message to Durkon and let it go from there. You have no way of saying whether or not it there was a great or small chance of it failing in saving them, but it had a complete chance in saving their souls.

You have a point, but the real reason behind it, was blatantly obvious. The title of comic 634 makes it obvious.


Sorry, but scared people generally don't try to make their spouse feel guilty for saving their lives in a sarcastic tone and provoking the person you're afraid of to be angry with you, and not even give them a chance to explain themselves.I don't see sarcasm. Provoking? No, but most certainly trying to drive the point home. And he was assured that he was himself. Then he did give him a chance to speak. Infact, he did explain a portion of it. Atleast, what he was willing to explain (He was on a time limit).


Um, no. I'd give my spouse the chance to explain hirself and consider hir own interests and needs. Perhaps, but the spouse apparantly doesn't have the time to explain it all. V had other priorities that were pressing.



As for V's stance on the divorce, he/she is not going to be the parent if this goes to court. Being an adventurer means not being there for your kid. Taking your kid along is folly. Kyrie has been taking care of the kids for 6 years. He knows what they want and what they dislike. V knows this, and he won't let his feelings get in the way in making this decisions. (I would hope not atleast.)

And as for women being irrational, I do believe that all parents can be irrational, and men can also be irrational. Its nothing new.

[Herald Alberich]

The other plan? THe other plan was as good as the other one. Albeit, V may have lost his family to the dragon but they would ahve been able to pass on once V's master made it there to dispatch the dragon. The other plan could ahve worked.

No, not really. I don't really want to get into the V vs. K debate (I can see both sides and don't have anything insightful to say for either), but this I can talk about. Let's take a look at the plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html).

First off, Resurrection and Sending both have 10-minute casting times. The plan addresses the latter with Durkon's scroll, but not the former (and V doesn't know about it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html)). Soul Bind only takes one round (and even if it didn't, the dragon was planning on using scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html) for it), so the dragon's plan would have been well complete before V was resurrected.

Two, Durkon was already gone, Wind Walking his way to Greysky City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) with Elan. Right there, the plan fails, since Qarr has no way of finding him and no way of asking the Azurites without getting killed first.

That doesn't get into things like the Azurites not being sure V's head isn't some sort of trick, Aarindarius not being available for whatever reason, and many other things.

V doesn't consider any of that because he's stressed, tired, and not thinking clearly (i.e. "like quicksand" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html)). To him, the plan seems reasonable, which is all the fiends need to plant the seeds of doubt in his mind.


You have a point, but the real reason behind it, was blatantly obvious. The title of comic 634 makes it obvious.

You're entirely right about that; but that doesn't make the plan workable. V thinks it is, realizes that he wants the power anyway, and takes it with a sad look on his face, fulfilling the prophecy and the fiends' evil intentions in dangling the alternate plan in the first place. They (and Qarr (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)) realized it wouldn't have worked, but V didn't.

[Sholos]

V's pretty much the way she used to be, so it should work out fine.

You know, I really, really hope you're dead wrong; because if you're not, that means we wasted a heck of a lot of time on that whole "V gains uber-power and misuses it" arc. If V hasn't changed, then Rich is a terrible, horrible, awful bad author; and I, for one, don't think he is. In fact, I think he's pretty darn good.

Now, back on topic.


Sorry, but scared people generally don't try to make their spouse feel guilty for saving their lives in a sarcastic tone and provoking the person you're afraid of to be angry with you, and not even give them a chance to explain themselves.
Question, have you ever been in a traumatic situation or seen somebody else in one? Movies don't count.

Here's a little snippet of real life. Nobody acts absolutely rationally during such an event. Nobody that has an even semi-typical brain/mindset. Inkyrius' reaction is exactly what I'd expect out of 99% of the population in that situation. The 1% are people who are basically incapable of feeling many strong emotions to begin with.


Um, no. I'd give my spouse the chance to explain hirself and consider hir own interests and needs.
Further, if "interests" and "needs" are leading a person down a path to damnation and you don't care, I'd say you're even less worthy of them then they are of you.

Also, I find your claim to be completely without merit unless you can honestly say that you have been in a situation that is at least moderately similar. Most people don't really know how they'd react in a situation the first time it comes up. They know how they like to think they'd react, but most of the time (unless they're brutally honest with themselves), they're wrong.

[Spiky]

I know some friends who have gone through terrible things as children. And years have passed and their still not comfortable with the incident. I can only imagine what they were feeling at the moment. To say that whatever damage that has occured to a child that they can get over later is an insensitive. They are feeling the pain NOW. They need their parent, NOW. Not tomorrow, not the day after, NOW. Being a parent means being their for your children when they need you if you can.


Are you aware that this completely contradicts all your other comments about how being gone for 6 years doesn't matter?

[Spiky]

You know, I really, really hope you're dead wrong; because if you're not, that means we wasted a heck of a lot of time on that whole "V gains uber-power and misuses it" arc. If V hasn't changed, then Rich is a terrible, horrible, awful bad author; and I, for one, don't think he is. In fact, I think he's pretty darn good.


Don't worry, V has clearly changed. In Origin, V's over-the-top actions consisted of talking too much and egotistically trying to prove his intelligence was superior to others'. Tri-soul splice is a bit past that, as is threatening a spouse, attacking other consumers, etc.

[David Argall]

Look, there is no need to assign blame here. People don't fit and divorce happens. Nobody is especially at fault. K wants a spouse that will be home every night, or at least every month, and whose prime interest is K. V's prime interest is magic and while there is great interest in K, there is not a willingness to center life around K.
Essentially some compromise must be found or the couple part.

[Bago!!!]

No, not really. I don't really want to get into the V vs. K debate (I can see both sides and don't have anything insightful to say for either), but this I can talk about. Let's take a look at the plan.

First off, Resurrection and Sending both have 10-minute casting times. The plan addresses the latter with Durkon's scroll, but not the former (and V doesn't know about it). Soul Bind only takes one round (and even if it didn't, the dragon was planning on using scrolls for it), so the dragon's plan would have been well complete before V was resurrected.

Two, Durkon was already gone, Wind Walking his way to Greysky City with Elan. Right there, the plan fails, since Qarr has no way of finding him and no way of asking the Azurites without getting killed first.

That doesn't get into things like the Azurites not being sure V's head isn't some sort of trick, Aarindarius not being available for whatever reason, and many other things.

V doesn't consider any of that because he's stressed, tired, and not thinking clearly (i.e. "like quicksand"). To him, the plan seems reasonable, which is all the fiends need to plant the seeds of doubt in his mind.

I am not going to get into details, but I still think that the plan would work. Despite the incredibly huge amount of time it would take, the devils seemed to know it would work, and the most certainly would not throw an idea out there. Course, they either overlooked the whole durkon leaving or didn't factor that.

30 minutes for two spells. 20 minutes of constant monollogueing fromt he dragons end and other factors.

Of course, how was V supposed to know about that? He didn't know, so that is hardly the point. From our angle, the plan would have then failed but from V's angle, it may have worked.

And as for V's head not being real, that just seems stupid...


Are you aware that this completely contradicts all your other comments about how being gone for 6 years doesn't matter? No I don't. It all makes sense.
He was gone for six years, but in this case, he is present when their family needs them the most.

[Omegonthesane]

I am not going to get into details,
Then you have no case. You have to make your case clear enough that anyone it may concern will immediately know what you are on about, or it can't even be argued for or against.


but I still think that the plan would work. Despite the incredibly huge amount of time it would take, the devils seemed to know it would work, and the most certainly would not throw an idea out there. Course, they either overlooked the whole durkon leaving or didn't factor that.
No. The incredibly huge amount of time it would take is what breaks it, even if Durkon hadn't left. And they couldn't have missed something like Durkon leaving, not given how long it would take them to come up with that stupid plan.


30 minutes for two spells. 20 minutes of constant monollogueing fromt he dragons end and other factors.
Greater Teleport: 1 round
Torturing two children to insanity and then eating them feet first: 10 minutes
Using two scrolls of Soul Bind: 2 rounds
Plane Shift: 1 round
Time required to trawl the entire OOTS multiverse to find the dragon: Aleph-one millennia
Time the kids spend in Hell when the dragon gets bored and gives their souls to Tiamat: All eternity
Time the kids spend separated from eachother and both their parents: All eternity


Of course, how was V supposed to know about that? He didn't know, so that is hardly the point. From our angle, the plan would have then failed but from V's angle, it may have worked.
May have. The stakes were far, far too high to take any gambles. Any at all.


And as for V's head not being real, that just seems stupid...
Actually, me too, but for argument's sake:
1) Get an epic-level evil sorcerer or warlock to agree to have his head cut off so that he can be rezzed on an Azurite ship.
2) Polymorph Any Object to make his head look like V's head.
3) ???
4) PROFIT!

[Belkster11]

Durkon was already gone with Elan. Presumably the day after V left, Durkon got the message from Haley.

Assuming that the Azurite fleet didn't have another cleric to rezz people, V would have been one dead elf who didn't even have the pleasure of being dead in one place. His head's on a ship and his body's on an island miles away. All they'd be able to do is give V's head a decent burial and prepare an explaination to the other members of the Order why V isn't with them anymore. (I guess they could scry for V's body, but I'm not sure if it works like that)

Another thing we'd have to consider is: How long would it have taken Quarr to cut off V's head? He's like an inch tall and there doesn't appear to be a sharp object handy for him to behead V's corpse in one swipe.

[Kaytara]

30 minutes for two spells. 20 minutes of constant monollogueing fromt he dragons end and other factors.
Assuming that the dragon would spend twenty minutes monologuing is quite a stretch, especially when the lives and souls of your family are on the line.


And as for V's head not being real, that just seems stupid...
The Azurites being suspicious is just ONE of the many little things that could have gone wrong. Something as trivial as Durkon being away on another diplomatic mission would have wrecked the plan just as surely. Qarr could have easily exploited a loophole in V's hastily-given orders to sabotage the whole thing, such as by dumping V's head on the ship, but into some corner where it wouldn't be found for hours.
Then there's the chance that Aarindarius would have been either unavailable or in no shape to fight a dragon. Say, out of spells.


Despite the incredibly huge amount of time it would take, the devils seemed to know it would work, and the most certainly would not throw an idea out there.

That's exactly what they would do, and did. They threw out the idea that it's NOT the only way, and how does THAT work out for your motivations, little elf?
Besides, with so many factors against it, including a statement by Qarr that the plan was ridiculous (which they agreed with), arguing that it must have been okay, anyway, because of what the fiends said while trying to tempt someone into making a deal with them.... no offense, that seems a bit naive. :smalltongue:

[Belkster11]

Plus, who's to say V's master will listen to the words of a dwarf? I don't know how sending works, but I assume what would have happened is that 'Daruis would have gotten an image of some dwarf he's never seen before telling him that V's family is in trouble with dragons.

Who's to say 'Daruis even likes dwarves at all? For all he would know, this is just some sick prank done by a dwarf.

[Katana_Geldar]

Can we talk less about the deep end of the alignment pool and more about the actual divorce? You guys are moralising here, and though the whole moral issue is related to Kyrie's grounds for divorce, it's not everything.

[Lamech]

I think that David Argall might have it right. Kyrie wants someone who will be around and not wander off for 6 years. Its probably her best argument, and V obviously can't take care of her kids while she's SAVING THE WORLD. In fact its the best thing she can do for them. (Barring leaving the plane of course maybe.) His reasons for the divorce probably include the infernal pact, hunger for power, and rushing off to fix everything; in addition to not being around.

If he's smart he won't point those things out at trial. V will have no trouble spinning the pact to his advantage, and it shouldn't be too hard to say that she thought Kyrie didn't want her around so she left. So the divorce will probably have these offical reasons, "I want a spouse who will be around. V is way to busy with things such as saving the world. Obviously I can't ask her to give it up, as our childern would be endangered (not to mention everyone else), but regardless I want a divorce. V has more important things to do, his actions have been nothing but perfectly selfless and good, but I want a spouse who will be around."

[kabbes]

Look, there is no need to assign blame here. People don't fit and divorce happens. Nobody is especially at fault. K wants a spouse that will be home every night, or at least every month, and whose prime interest is K. V's prime interest is magic and while there is great interest in K, there is not a willingness to center life around K.
Essentially some compromise must be found or the couple part.

You're talking to the wrong audience. For the main, this audience wants to play it out as a series of logical metagaming decisions following the path of maximum utility. They don't want to hear about pesky real life things like "I just don't love you any more, sorry about that."

[Kaytara]

I think that David Argall might have it right. Kyrie wants someone who will be around and not wander off for 6 years. Its probably her best argument, and V obviously can't take care of her kids while she's SAVING THE WORLD. In fact its the best thing she can do for them. (Barring leaving the plane of course maybe.) His reasons for the divorce probably include the infernal pact, hunger for power, and rushing off to fix everything; in addition to not being around.

Well, yes, but... The problem with that particular argument is that SAVING THE WORLD isn't something V's going to be doing for any prolonged amount of time, that will keep him from attending his parenting duties. It's pretty much just this one thing he got involved in and will likely be over in a matter of months. Which is nothing compared to the six years already lost and the many decades still ahead.

Now, if V proclaimed his intention to remain an adventurer and use his acquired power to keep the world safe or somesuch, that would be a different matter. But this particular quest on its own should not be grounds for a divorce....

[Scarlet Knight]

Not everyone with a PC class is an adventure. Pretty sure V was an apprentice mage and content with learning from books and his/her master when s/he got married.

I wonder if any PC can ever be considered a fit parent?
PC's :
1) are often away for long periods of time.
2) may die without family ever knowing ( belly of a beast)
3) enemies often attempt to kidnap family members ( ok, that's a DM plot device but still)
4) may return cursed / polymorphed, etc.

On the plus side, if they do live to retirement, they will likely be rich, powerful, &/or famous.

There was a great short story in Dragon once about a wizard who returns home & finds that his father died. He's angry that he wasn't told but his mother says in essence : "You're a great wizard, battling dragons, saving the world. He's a simple farmer. Why would he summon you home if you do not come on your own."

I can't see a divorce court granting custody of young children to a PC ever.

[Lamech]

You know I wonder...
(probably groundless speculation.)Could there have been forshadowing here? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) Perhaps Kyrie hasn't been enterily loyal? Nahh...

[Zanaril]

You know I wonder...
(probably groundless speculation.)Could there have been forshadowing here? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) Perhaps Kyrie hasn't been enterily loyal? Nahh...

Speculation time: Who's the other elf? [subliminal message]Inkyrius/Aarindarius[/subliminal message]

[rewinn]

Speculation time: Who's the other elf? [subliminal message]Inkyrius/Aarindarius[/subliminal message]
If Inky's a baker, that leaves the butcher and the candlestick maker.

[Silverraptor]

I think you're very, very wrong. V has some rather excellent and compelling reasons that most of the complaints occured (even "I was possessed at the time"), and has very clearly substantially changed (for the better) because of the event.

As long as they have a nice conversation and communicate, I suspect their marriage will be just fine.

You misinterpretted what I was trying to say (Though that may have been my fault there). While I was reading back, I realized that what has transpired would ultimatly lead to where it is now, Kyrie suing for divorce. I also say that when they meet, there will be angry remarks from Kyrie that will get them close to divorce, if not the actual outcome.

[InfectiousFight]

I wonder if any PC can ever be considered a fit parent?
PC's :
1) are often away for long periods of time.
2) may die without family ever knowing ( belly of a beast)
3) enemies often attempt to kidnap family members ( ok, that's a DM plot device but still)
4) may return cursed / polymorphed, etc.

On the plus side, if they do live to retirement, they will likely be rich, powerful, &/or famous.

There was a great short story in Dragon once about a wizard who returns home & finds that his father died. He's angry that he wasn't told but his mother says in essence : "You're a great wizard, battling dragons, saving the world. He's a simple farmer. Why would he summon you home if you do not come on your own."

I can't see a divorce court granting custody of young children to a PC ever.

That's a similar situation to what happens when someone's married to someone in the intelligence community, or lives on a classified submarine, or such. And outside of societies that have No-Fault Divorce, a fairly recent innovation, and let me go off the track for a minute to say that even though you can find examples of it in history, that was generally the exception, not the rule, PARTICULARLY in the kind of Medieval Europe that D&D is supposed to be influenced by.
But back to what I said...in a society without No-Fault divorce, "I suddenly realized the implications of something I had agreed to prior," is not a reasonable grounds for divorce. Even IN societies with no-fault divorce, just imagine the scenario I mentioned earlier about the spouses of people in the intelligence community: [I had a really big scenario here and it was too complicated to make concise even after three tries. Sorry.]

[spargel]

Perhaps not, but he certainly did say, and these are his exact words... *Lalalalalalaaaaa* Ready! *Ahem*
"STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM US!!!"
I think that sums everything he witnessed just fine.

And that still never explains why he doesn't mention familicide at all. An alternate possible reason could be that V was just plain creepy.


I don't see sarcasm. Provoking? No, but most certainly trying to drive the point home. And he was assured that he was himself.


"I believe I understand just fine. Thanks. Blah blah blah."



Then he did give him a chance to speak. Infact, he did explain a portion of it. Atleast, what he was willing to explain (He was on a time limit).

Hey, I killed a man.
But it was in self-defe "INTERRUPTED"

I'm pretty sure everyone else just told you why the alternate plan was horrible, so I don't need to argue about that anymore.


You know, I really, really hope you're dead wrong; because if you're not, that means we wasted a heck of a lot of time on that whole "V gains uber-power and misuses it" arc. If V hasn't changed, then Rich is a terrible, horrible, awful bad author; and I, for one, don't think he is. In fact, I think he's pretty darn good.

Now, back on topic.


Should I start pointing out all of the plot-holes in that arc?



Question, have you ever been in a traumatic situation or seen somebody else in one? Movies don't count.

Here's a little snippet of real life. Nobody acts absolutely rationally during such an event. Nobody that has an even semi-typical brain/mindset. Inkyrius' reaction is exactly what I'd expect out of 99% of the population in that situation. The 1% are people who are basically incapable of feeling many strong emotions to begin with.


The only reaction I found realistic was the "STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM US" part, and he oddly said that just as V was about to leave anyways. Everything after that, well, most people would ask questions first instead of being a sarcastic jerk to the person who just saved their lives.



Further, if "interests" and "needs" are leading a person down a path to damnation and you don't care, I'd say you're even less worthy of them then they are of you.


Oh, sorry, I don't know your interests and needs, because I jump to conclusions and interrupt you when you're trying to explain yourself.



Also, I find your claim to be completely without merit unless you can honestly say that you have been in a situation that is at least moderately similar. Most people don't really know how they'd react in a situation the first time it comes up. They know how they like to think they'd react, but most of the time (unless they're brutally honest with themselves), they're wrong.

If I was disgusted by familicide, I would mention it at least once in the conversation (Or possibly run away), and if I wasn't disgusted by familicide, I'd be a lot less of a jerk and try to let the other person talk instead of jumping to conclusions towards the person who just saved my life.

Anything unrealistic with that?

[Aldrakan]

So because in about a one minute conversation made after being crucified while terrified and traumatized Ink didn't provide an itemized list of everything objectionable about the last few minutes, you're declaring that Ink was fine with everything not specifically mentioned?

There was no mention of V totally ignoring their children's broken limbs either, so I guess that was okay too.

[spargel]

So because in about a one minute conversation made after being crucified while terrified and traumatized Ink didn't provide an itemized list of everything objectionable about the last few minutes, you're declaring that Ink was fine with everything not specifically mentioned?

There was no mention of V totally ignoring their children's broken limbs either, so I guess that was okay too.

You know I'm assuming that Kyrie actually does care about the familicide, but simply doesn't mention it at all for some reason?

[Aldrakan]

You know I'm assuming that Kyrie actually does care about the familicide, but simply doesn't mention it at all for some reason?

Okay then, thank you for making that clear.

"Some reason"? You say that like you're having trouble thinking of one. I really don't see why.
Trauma, distraction, limited time, the assumption that it would be obvious why she was horrified; these would all explain it easily.
Overall, the fact that people are not perfect communicators, especially when stressed.
People leave out important points, they say things that can be misinterpreted, they misspeak, they assume people understand them better than they do, they say things out of order. That's just what happens.

[Shale]

Also, let's make this clear -- Familicide is the only thing that happens between the two times Inkyrius interacts with V during that scene. V frees I, asks if anybody is actively dying, leaves, does the necromancy thing, and is immediately greeted with "STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM US!". There is nothing else that happened to have caused I to change temperament so dramatically. If you see your spouse shoot somebody in cold blood, and then immediately run up to them and yell about how horrified you are, wouldn't you assume they know what you're talking about?

[Scarlet Knight]

... not the rule, PARTICULARLY in the kind of Medieval Europe that D&D is supposed to be influenced by...

I was thinking about divorce in Medieval Europe like you mentioned, but I couldn't figure out which of the spouses was the Lord and Master with all the rights, and who was the chattel who needed a poison ring & a trip to the local witch to become free. :smallconfused:

[Kalbron]

You're talking to the wrong audience. For the main, this audience wants to play it out as a series of logical metagaming decisions following the path of maximum utility. They don't want to hear about pesky real life things like "I just don't love you any more, sorry about that."

And for the other half they want V to suffer because he doesn't match up entirely with their Knightly Code that they would never follow were they to be pressured in real life.

Your point?

-------------------

Kyrie deciding upon divorce because "I don't love you anymore."? Sure, fine, whatever. Go for it.

Kyrie deciding upon divorce due to being a moralising judgemental idiot? Get lost and start letting V finish his sentences.

[spargel]

Okay then, thank you for making that clear.

"Some reason"? You say that like you're having trouble thinking of one. I really don't see why.

Trauma, distraction, limited time, the assumption that it would be obvious why she was horrified; these would all explain it easily.
Overall, the fact that people are not perfect communicators, especially when stressed.
People leave out important points, they say things that can be misinterpreted, they misspeak, they assume people understand them better than they do, they say things out of order. That's just what happens.

Unbelievable. If someone does something monstrous in front of you and you're shocked by it, the conversation you have with that person will almost certainly involve that monstrous act. You don't just leave it out. That is not what normally happens.

V definitely has problems comprehending that her family would probably be shocked by familicide, since she was caught completely off-guard by her family's reaction.

[Shale]

Not if you define "involve" as "contain a full recounting of." They both saw it. Inkyrius doesn't have to give V a recap. S/he can skip straight to the incredulous horror.

[spargel]

He went right to "You care more about power than us. Give it up." rather than "This power has turned you into a monster. Give it up."

Can you earnestly give me a good reason why Kyrie wouldn't mention it and actually believe it yourself?

[Illieas]

1. inreconcilable alignment change

2. abandonment

3. child endangerment (by occupation)

4. choose power/job over family

5. children fear their parent

if we follow celia's standpoint
6. personality change from a kind book study mage to a mass murderer.

any of those are pretty good grounds

[Aldrakan]

Not if you define "involve" as "contain a full recounting of." They both saw it. Inkyrius doesn't have to give V a recap. S/he can skip straight to the incredulous horror.

"As you know, your father, the king" :smallsmile:

[Shale]

Can you earnestly give me a good reason why Kyrie wouldn't mention it and actually believe it yourself?

I thought the part where s/he accused V of being possessed by demons counted for that. That's not the sort of thing people throw around because somebody used the wrong fork at dinner.

[Aldrakan]

He went right to "You care more about power than us. Give it up." rather than "This power has turned you into a monster. Give it up."

Can you earnestly give me a good reason why Kyrie wouldn't mention it and actually believe it yourself?

Yes. Any of the reasons we mentioned. Kindly don't accuse people of arguing in bad faith without any evidence.

In any case "Is this why you left me alone to raise our children for six years? So you could turn yourself into THIS?".
Also, "did this terrible thing to yourself".

The "THIS" Ink refers to I would argue is a sadistic genocidal archmage, which is what V appears to have become.
Ink clearly references his transformation, not just V's attitude to them.

[Lissou]

Unbelievable. If someone does something monstrous in front of you and you're shocked by it, the conversation you have with that person will almost certainly involve that monstrous act. You don't just leave it out. That is not what normally happens.

So let's see, what's the dialogue we should have expected? "V, you just used a big necromancy spell called familicide on that black dragon and possibly destroyed their family, although there is no way I could have witnessed that part! I am shocked an appalled!"
This isn't Goblins, you know :P

More seriously, characters don't have to narrate what just happened in the comic. We just saw it.
There isn't just one plausible way to react to something.
" I can't believe you killed that guy! Piss off!" might be one, but "Stay away from me, you monster!" is one too.

[spargel]

Anyone with a basic understanding of psychology can tell you why it's unrealistic for Kyrie not to mention familicide.

He could have said something like "How could you familicide them?" Instead, he makes V go on a guilt trip about her family and selling her soul. All of your explanations simply stretch the truth in an attempt to make it sound plausible.

Now, do you earnestly believe that it's completely realistic for somebody who is disgusted at his/her spouse's familicide to talk about family problems and selling your soul without mentioning it at all?

[Shale]

So tell me. Why did Inkyrius, who witnessed the entire battle between V and the black dragon, go from confusion after V killed the dragon to utter horror, fear for hir life and the conclusion that V was being controlled by demons after Familicide? What else could have brought that on?

[Lissou]

Now, do you earnestly believe that it's completely realistic for somebody who is disgusted at his/her spouse's familicide to talk about family problems and selling your soul without mentioning it at all?

I earnestly believe that it's realistic for K to say "get out of my spouse, you demon" after witnessing familicide (and therefore concluding V has to be possessed for doing something that evil), and then, upon learning that V actually sold (rented) his soul, to focus on THAT, because that's more K's immediate concern.

[spargel]

So tell me. Why did Inkyrius, who witnessed the entire battle between V and the black dragon, go from confusion after V killed the dragon to utter horror, fear for hir life and the conclusion that V was being controlled by demons after Familicide? What else could have brought that on?

Because he was scared of V after what she did to the dragon. Then, he suddenly developed amnesia and forgot about the familicide and instead decides to talk about other things.


I earnestly believe that it's realistic for K to say "get out of my spouse, you demon" after witnessing familicide (and therefore concluding V has to be possessed for doing something that evil), and then, upon learning that V actually sold (rented) his soul, to focus on THAT, because that's more K's immediate concern.

You know, if I wanted V from renting her soul, I'd at least mention familicide in some way to convince her to let go of the splice.

[Spiky]

No I don't. It all makes sense.
He was gone for six years, but in this case, he is present when their family needs them the most.

Very sad. You must think that whole "quality time" thing is a good idea.

[Shale]

Because he was scared of V after what she did to the dragon. Then, he suddenly developed amnesia and forgot about the familicide and instead decides to talk about other things.

So this entire ridiculous argument has been stealth-trolling because you think Inkyrius was written poorly in comic 642?

Jesus H. Christ do I wish I could punch people over the Internet.

[Sholos]

So this entire ridiculous argument has been stealth-trolling because you think Inkyrius was written poorly in comic 642?

Jesus H. Christ do I wish I could punch people over the Internet.

QFT

Though maybe other people will read this and realize the truth of the situation.

....

Oh wait, forgot where I was for a second. :smalltongue:

[Dr. Cthulwho]

If, however, V is not irrational, is not evil, and does care about his family, then divorce becomes a logical option.

Well, V could be, in Kyries eyes, only one or two of those things.

And we don't know what step he/she has taken since V left.

And besides, to use real world examples, you'd have men and women never taking legal action against scary spouses if this line of thought was accepted (and to be fair plenty of men and women do live unhappily or unsafely out of fear of seperating).

"Don't rock the boat or your irrational/evil/uncaring spouse wont be happy"


What could V do? Divine magic heals wounds.

Telaport them to an Elven temple or back to the fleet with the Paladins and Durkon? The latter which V was already intending to do. Or at least help carry them to the healers (as Kyrie presumably had to do by herself unless help was already on the way to their isolated forest home)?

Or like MReav suggested. He was channaling one of the most powerful Conjurers on the Infernal Realms books. He had plenty of options other then "I'm sure other parent can take care of your broken limbs, I'm off".


We get the impression from Durkon that lawfuls like he would not grant divorces in any but the most serious events.

Well, I'd think it would more depend on the law and society. Legally prohibiting divorce is not an inherently more lawful state of affairs then legally permitting divorce.

But from the story told by the LG Dwarf Durkon had a thing with (forget her name) it seems Dwarven society is very traditionalist and probably doesn't go divorce, so their lawful status doesn't accept divorce.


Incidentally, I think canonically elves live to be like 350, so six years is approximately equivalent to a year and about a third in human terms. We also know that for a decent amount of that time, V was cavorting around with Roy (possibly as much as a year) and if V's spouse knew what V was doing during that time (i.e., saving the universe) V's spouse would have no grounds to object.

I don't think it has to work that way. If humans lived to 350 then six years to us would still be six years. Just because you live longer doesn't necessarily mean time undergoes a strange compression where a year suddenly seems like a month or day.

What we see is that elves mature slower.

And maybe she wouldn't. But that might speak of the importance of trying to keep in contact while away for long periods. Like soldiers and rig workers do with phones. Or letters before phones.


Did V have a sensible choice, though? She had the raw power needed to kill Xykon. Having the power to save the world and not using it, no matter how good the reason and how evil the power, is probably an eternal damnation offence in itself, regardless of the (then apparent) probability of the Snarl literally destroying everything if Xykon's plans went ahead.

An eternal damnation offence? I'm not sure how many good aligned gods (or neutral ones) would say "V, you chose to stay and help your injured family after the immediate threat had passed instead of using your dark power to dive head first into combat with the big bad. For this you are eternally damned!"


If V spins it right, she shouldn't have any trouble making Kyrie look like the bad guy.

Not sure what divorce cases you've been watching, but I'd find it remarkable if the parent who has cared, alone, for the children for a number of years, and who recently, along with the children, suffered badly when an enemy of the adventuring partner decided to hurt them by hurting the stay at home parent, could be made look like a bad guy.

But then I've never been to an Elven divorce trial. I'm sure their long lived judges/magistrates could be taken in by V's spin. :smallbiggrin:


I think you're very, very wrong. V has some rather excellent and compelling reasons that most of the complaints occured (even "I was possessed at the time")

Except he wasn't possessed at the time.


and has very clearly substantially changed (for the better) because of the event.

Depending on Kyries divorce argument - for example call witness: Bearded Turban guy "Yes, while serving the papers I found that V is unable to control his temper and can be prone to displays of magical aggression".

V could say he was provoked of course.... "But he said mean things to me..." Hmmm. Maybe not.


Look, there is no need to assign blame here. People don't fit and divorce happens. Nobody is especially at fault. K wants a spouse that will be home every night, or at least every month, and whose prime interest is K. V's prime interest is magic and while there is great interest in K, there is not a willingness to center life around K.
Essentially some compromise must be found or the couple part.

I agree with that. K wants a partner who is family focused. Or has learnt, in V's absense and reflection on his/her return that is what she/he wants. And fair enough to. V has been focused on career/power.

Of course often peoples views of divorce are often coloured by real world versions which can be nasty and messy, and the (sometimes unfair) situation of where you have to have "a good reason" which translates "A reason that satisfies my own moral stance on the issue".

[Herald Alberich]

And besides, to use real world examples, you'd have men and women never taking legal action against scary spouses if this line of thought was accepted (and to be fair plenty of men and women do live unhappily or unsafely out of fear of seperating).

"Don't rock the boat or your irrational/evil/uncaring spouse wont be happy"


Again, not to take sides, but every advocate of Kyrie not divorcing V out of fear of retribution has suggested that K go far away with the kids instead, and never have reason to see, let alone anger, V again. That's not the same as continuing to live in an abusive household with the source of your fear within easy reach.

In the real world, taking legal action works because the scary spouses can be subdued by law enforcement. The idea of Spliced V being subdued by the Elvish police is laughable, and it's debatable whether anyone in the world besides Xykon could have stopped him.

[The_Weirdo]

I have a theory. My guess is the Famlicide spell had a hidden material component - similar to another epic spell of destruction (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/11/27/8-bit-chronicles-3-of-3/). :smallsmile:

O_O

A... family.

[Sholos]

Again, not to take sides, but every advocate of Kyrie not divorcing V out of fear of retribution has suggested that K go far away with the kids instead, and never have reason to see, let alone anger, V again. That's not the same as continuing to live in an abusive household with the source of your fear within easy reach.

Yeah, that's a great idea. It's not like a wizard can easily find someone he is intimately familiar with. Oh wait....

[The_Weirdo]

V definitely has problems comprehending that her family would probably be shocked by familicide, since she was caught completely off-guard by her family's reaction.

What kind of baker has been making YOUR cakes that you don't think a common baker would be horrified by someone slaughtering an entire bloodline?

[The_Weirdo]

A small detail here: I. learned that the Familicide spell EXISTS. And what it does. Divorce makes him "not V's family" - in case someone did that to V.

[Lissou]

You know, if I wanted V from renting her soul, I'd at least mention familicide in some way to convince her to let go of the splice.

Why? It has just happened, K has no reason to believe V suddenly forgot.
Plus, it becomes secondary. Familicide becomes a consequence of renting his soul, therefore instead of focusing on a symptom, K is focusing on the cause and asking V to stop the splice.

[Kaytara]

I don't think it has to work that way. If humans lived to 350 then six years to us would still be six years. Just because you live longer doesn't necessarily mean time undergoes a strange compression where a year suddenly seems like a month or day.

What we see is that elves mature slower.

Why wouldn't it work that way?

Time perception is very fluid, as you must be aware. Half an hour can seem to drag on for hours and hours can seem to be gone in a minute. If you only need to go eat or take a dump every few weeks, as it seems to be with elves, they'd have even less reason to keep track of time. Remember Roy's Post Mortem Time Dissociation Disorder? That's OotS canon. And, as Lissou pointed out, there's the "One of these years" expression when in our culture it's "One of these days".

There are animals that live for a very short time, too. Mayflies and the like. To them, a single day is their whole life. Do you really think they have the same perception of time as humans do?

I have no idea why the concept of elves having a different sense of time is so hard to swallow.

[Herald Alberich]

Yeah, that's a great idea. It's not like a wizard can easily find someone he is intimately familiar with. Oh wait....

You're right, of course. I wasn't trying to argue anything, just point out a misconception. Everyone who says K should not have sent because V might be pissed also said K should try to avoid V to the best of K's ability (which does have about the same chances of success as K hurting V with that stick, if V was inclined to seek K out anyway).

Everyone who said that K not divorcing V is equivalent to staying in a relationship with an abuser missed that second point. So here it is, spelled out.

[Lissou]

I still think that a more reasonable approach if V was a dangerous psychopath would be to send a paladin to kill him or something like that. Or to arrest him.
Here, it's not arrest or anything, it's a paper saying "Please show up on that specific day at that specific time". To send something like that you have to trust the person to actually do it, which a dangerous evil psychopath probably wouldn't.

That's why I'm saying that sending a divorce procedure like this seems to give V more credit, and to show that K doesn't think V=Xykon.
Of course I'm not saying if V was like Xykon K should stay married. Just that the first contact would be less polite and require less action and cooperation from V's part. Getting a divorce after V has been dealt with (if he's still alive) would of course make sense. Getting protection in the meantime as well.

[kabbes]

And for the other half they want V to suffer because he doesn't match up entirely with their Knightly Code that they would never follow were they to be pressured in real life.

Your point?

-------------------

Kyrie deciding upon divorce because "I don't love you anymore."? Sure, fine, whatever. Go for it.

Kyrie deciding upon divorce due to being a moralising judgemental idiot? Get lost and start letting V finish his sentences.I guess my point is: I wonder how many people here arguing that Kyrie should have said this or that if he meant to imply the other and that this one action justifies that lifechanging decision have actually been in marriages. Because I see a lot of argument surrounding a kind of metagaming minutiae that has precious little to do with real life.

[Nimrod's Son]

Because I see a lot of argument surrounding a kind of metagaming minutiae that has precious little to do with real life.
You say that like you're somehow surprised... :smallamused:

[Kalbron]

I guess my point is: I wonder how many people here arguing that Kyrie should have said this or that if he meant to imply the other and that this one action justifies that lifechanging decision have actually been in marriages. Because I see a lot of argument surrounding a kind of metagaming minutiae that has precious little to do with real life.

See, the problem with that argument right there is this: if you haven't been involved in the genocide of black dragons, how can you possibly pass judgement upon V? If you've never had a spouse who was involved in the genocide of black dragons, how can you say Kyrie is doing the right thing?

Saying "you must have experienced X to pass judgement upon it!" is a very very shaky argument, and probably should never be brought up when discussing a fantasy webcomic where heaven has a revolving door and the villains are despicable but comedic masters.

[Katana_Geldar]

Okay, I have a question: How much proof do we have that Kyrie actually witnessed Familicide or if she did, knew what it was?

As far as I can tell, V was not familiar with the spell as she was told it by one of the splices, and if V doesn't know the spell I'll bet 100gp that Kyrie would never heard of it either.

So what did Kyrie see?

She saw:

* Someone who LOOKED evil that she later found out to be V who was rather callous (not immediately attending to the kids injuries after the dragon was gone, just asking if they were okay while focused on further revenge) to say the least
* V casting a spell that she may have heard that shot out pink lightning and caused the dragon that attacked them to call V a monster
* And finally, V who immediately thought about doing other things (see first frame) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html) and not attending to the family as he should have.

Remember, don't confuse what we know from what the characters know. The only time we see Kyrie during Familicide is when she as avoiding the lightning and crawling towards the kids. There's no indication she knows what is going on other than the fact that V is doing something bad.

[kabbes]

See, the problem with that argument right there is this: if you haven't been involved in the genocide of black dragons, how can you possibly pass judgement upon V? If you've never had a spouse who was involved in the genocide of black dragons, how can you say Kyrie is doing the right thing?

Saying "you must have experienced X to pass judgement upon it!" is a very very shaky argument, and probably should never be brought up when discussing a fantasy webcomic where heaven has a revolving door and the villains are despicable but comedic masters.Yeah -- I'm guessing that you fall firmly into the "never been married" camp, right?

[Kaytara]

We don't know how much she heard, but her sudden change of attitude from "Suvie, is that you? What happened to you?!" to "STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM US!" is pretty hard to explain unless we assume that she understood just how horrible the Familicide was.

Even if she didn't understand what the spell is, V spent another comic gloating about it to the dragon. A bit high in the air, but Kyrie could still have heard him.

[Katana_Geldar]

Kyrie could have reacted that way just because she thought V looked evil, and she had this impression before V did Familicide

[Shale]

S/he already knew that it was Vaarsuvius when s/he freed their children. Hir reaction there was nowhere near what Familicide got.

[Sholos]

Why wouldn't it work that way?

I have no idea why the concept of elves having a different sense of time is so hard to swallow.

Because V pretty much says that elves perceive time normally when answering Belkar's question about the disadvantages of being an elf. Specifically, "20 years in diapers."

Also, if elves perceived time that differently, they wouldn't really be able to interact with shorter-lived races. I don't see V complaining that things are moving too quickly; indeed, V is often the one saying things aren't moving quickly enough. Elves also don't need more sleep, which you'd expect if time was truly all that different. Compare that to Tolkien's Ents, for example. They spend half a day just greeting each other. They're amazed at how a forest they "just" saw is gone (they saw it quite a long time before that, in human terms). That's the kind of behavior I expect from a race that perceives time differently.

[Kaytara]

Logically, yes, a race as long-lived as elves would likely have very specific qualities, some of which you mentioned. But they aren't designed with perfect biological realism and mind any more than fire-breathing dragons are.

But my phrasing was somewhat insufficient. I meant not that elves DO, always, perceive time differently, but that they CAN perceive time differently if the circumstances are right, such as when they aren't doing anything too special like saving the world but just living day in and day out, week in and week out and so on...

Elven perception of time should be more flexible than that of humans, is what I'm trying to say.

Another quibble is that the part Lissou quoted is a hint in the other direction, that elves DO consider years to be more or less equivalent to our days.

Finally, I'm not sure if that part in Origins should be taken all that seriously. It's a gag, after all. Rich was poking fun at what having a slower development and a longer life means beyond all the pretty flowery near-immortality. Making conclusions about elven sensitivity to time seems like a stretch.

Speaking of that.... remember that other scene in Origins where V spends an hour blabbering and then exclaims "Blast my elven insensitivity to the flow of time!"

Yeah. Kind of spelled out there, and directly on-topic too. I'm wondering why I didn't remember it earlier.

[The_Weirdo]

Okay, I have a question: How much proof do we have that Kyrie actually witnessed Familicide or if she did, knew what it was?

V gave, in front of K, a whole speech to the dragon, describing in detail what the spell did. Plus, most people know the basics of etymology to tell "famili" = "family" and "cide" = "kill".

[spargel]

So this entire ridiculous argument has been stealth-trolling because you think Inkyrius was written poorly in comic 642?

Jesus H. Christ do I wish I could punch people over the Internet.

If you want me to be serious, then I'd guess that either Kyrie doesn't care about familicide that much and is more afraid of V's demonic attitude, or he has some weird mental issues and decides not to talk about the thing that scares him the most about V. But that would be stretching it.

If you feel like attacking me instead of coming up a counter-argument, feel free to continue doing so.


Why? It has just happened, K has no reason to believe V suddenly forgot.
Plus, it becomes secondary. Familicide becomes a consequence of renting his soul, therefore instead of focusing on a symptom, K is focusing on the cause and asking V to stop the splice.

That would probably require a little bit of deep thinking, which K isn't supposed to have shortly after being attacked by an ABD according to everyone here. If someone commits familicide right in front of your eyes and you're appalled by it, one of the first things you'll want to talk about with that person will be familicide, not your own family problems.

And if you really want to get V to let go of the splice, wouldn't it be a good idea to point out the consequences?

[David Argall]

We don't know how much she heard, but her sudden change of attitude from "Suvie, is that you? What happened to you?!" to "STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM US!" is pretty hard to explain unless we assume that she understood just how horrible the Familicide was.

This assumes somewhat more rational thinking from K than we really have a right to expect.
The scenario goes ... Evil dragon appears and starts doing evil things. Another apparently evil thing appears and battles dragon. #2 wins and gives evidence of possibly being V. It then proceeds to do other dramatic events, and not those taking care of K and the kids that K would likely expect.
In such a situation, K's prime motive would be to reach and take care of the children, and so attacking, or even being impolite, to the V-monster is simply not on the table. Only after it has been determined that the kids will at least survive for the moment does K need to consider what to do about V.
Now it is quite likely that Familicide did their relations no good, but it is entirely possible the spell made little or no difference. Either way, V was acting in a very different manner than K would have expected, and in a way somewhat consistent with V being dominated by some powerful evil. K does not need to consider Familicide particularly evil to reach this conclusion. From the moment V appeared, V looked very dangerous and K would have wanted to be between V and the kids. The idea that this is V requires some immediate consideration, but the idea that V is possessed springs to life as soon as K learns or suspects this is V. K does not need to consider the morals of Familicide to reach a conclusion and act as K did.

[Jothki]

It seems to me that it's likely that V won't even bother to show up at court. There are far more important things to do, like save the world.

Which is of course why the divorce is probably for the best at this point.

[The_Weirdo]

It seems to me that it's likely that V won't even bother to show up at court. There are far more important things to do, like save the world.

Which is of course why the divorce is probably for the best at this point.

V might well simply apologize and tell K he'll give K everything K wanted via sending.

[Warren Dew]

It's like marrying someone who's joining the military and then suing for divorce when your spouse's job keeps them in the field for two years. Not their fault, you jerk!

It does happen, and all too often. Usually it involves cheating with someone else of the spouse's gender who was not away.

That could be true in this case as well, of course.

[Omegonthesane]

It does happen, and all too often. Usually it involves cheating with someone else of the spouse's gender who was not away.

That could be true in this case as well, of course.

And there's the starting point for a bunch of KxAarindarius fanfics.

[Sholos]

Sooo.... I think we now see that there were even more reasons behind the whole thing. I mean, I was accepting of her decision before. Now V really looks like a jerk.

[Katana_Geldar]

And the best part? V knows he has been a jerk and is taking it on the chin. Very sad but the best character development I have seen so far in V.

A lesser person (or should I say Elf) would move the outer and lower planes trying to get back and explain everything "I can change, honey!"

[Killer Angel]

Sooo.... I think we now see that there were even more reasons behind the whole thing. I mean, I was accepting of her decision before. Now V really looks like a jerk.

Yes, it appears that K. has good reason behind that decision...
(and the fact that V. needs the bird's counsels to understand his past behaviour, don't speaks in his favour)

[Olorin Maia]

I wouldn't be surprised if after hearing all of Inky's reasons for divorce, V looked at him and said "you're right. I am unfit to be a parent."

V obviously cares about her children and family, and this is a wonderful way to remove them from future harm.

I totally called that. I assume other people did as well, but I think that I was the first in this thread, at least.

[The_Weirdo]

And the best part? V knows he has been a jerk and is taking it on the chin. Very sad but the best character development I have seen so far in V.

A lesser person (or should I say Elf) would move the outer and lower planes trying to get back and explain everything "I can change, honey!"

Then again, maybe, later, V will try to. Change, I mean.

[ericgrau]

Predictions spoilered:

After the final battle, the strip has some "epilogue" strips. V tries to return to her mate to apologize to him, only to find that he has been dating yet another androgynous elf. He's moved on, and both must accept the separation. An OotS member says something about "Wait, the strip's ending, no big gender reveal??" and the reader is frustrated until the end of time.

[Warren Dew]

Very sad but the best character development I have seen so far in V.

Agreed. Vaarsuvius has finally figured out that Kyrie isn't worth worrying about, and has accepted that there's no way to keep the kids out of Kyrie's clutches.

[Shale]

Yeah, how dare a parent want to find a mate who pays attention to him or her even when lives aren't at immediate risk. What a shrew. And obviously a horrible parent, what with how terribly we saw their children end up after six years under Inkyrius' sole care.

[Kaytara]

Agreed. Vaarsuvius has finally figured out that Kyrie isn't worth worrying about, and has accepted that there's no way to keep the kids out of Kyrie's clutches.

Putting aside my disagreement with that notion for a moment, V's rant about wanting to throw himself at his love's feet and beg forgiveness shows that he still thinks Kyrie is very much worth worrying about.

[Katana_Geldar]

Agreed. Vaarsuvius has finally figured out that Kyrie isn't worth worrying about, and has accepted that there's no way to keep the kids out of Kyrie's clutches.

No, it's not about that. I am actually wondering what comic that you read, as there's nothing to indicate there that that has happened.

V has realised that he is too focused on magic and has taken for granted that Kyrie and the kids will always be there, no matter what happens. V also realises that the kids will be safer with Kyrie, and even safer when they do not have a connection to V (though V is kidding himself here if he thinks they are COMPLETELY out of harms way).

V had a number of options rather than choosing not to contest the divorce, but he chose not even to get a lawyer and try and fight for visitation rights. And why? V isn't angry with Kyrie, he seems to understand even though V knows he can't do anything about it.

Alea iacta est.

[Milandros]

V. and Eugene have a lot in common.

They both love the magic first and formost.

The difference is that V. has realised this, and has sorrowfully let his mate go. It's not nice, but are there any nice ways out of this situation? (Other than the dubiously realistic one some seem to be advocating, which is K. suddenly deciding "Oh, V. is so awesome and cool and wonderful, so I'm going to sit here and hope no more dragons show up and just wait and wait as long as it takes for him to come home, and then when he does I'll cook, and clean, and sit quietly in another room while he studies his magic, and try never to interrupt or upset him or demand any of his attention, heart or time, and also try not to be upset about his selling his soul to fiends."

If V. can't, in his heart of hearts, really decide that he genuinely cares enough for his family over other things to dedicate enough of his life to them to make him a decent mate and partner, then he is making the right decision to let them seek their own life. No doubt, when all this is over, he'll return for visits, and he'll share some of his adventuring wealth to make sure the children are well-cared for, but whilst he obviously cares for them, unless they're shoved under his nose he doesn't even seem to think of them.

Make me travel away from home from my wife and children, even if it's just for a few months, and I will damn well think of them regularly. They just seem, at the moment, to be V.'s secondary priority.

It happens. There's no fault or evil in it. Sometimes things don't work out.

Though I hope he's smart enough to send them a message at least, explaining his decision. Otherwise he'll look like Eugene agreeing to never visit his family again when Roy asked him. Not caring at all.

[Zeful]

Agreed. Vaarsuvius has finally figured out that Kyrie isn't worth worrying about, and has accepted that there's no way to keep the kids out of Kyrie's clutches.

Blatant Misunderstanding is blatant. It's more that V has accepted that he did something very wrong, and that there's no real way to make up for it.

[Lissou]

A lesser person (or should I say Elf)

Elves are people too. Person doesn't mean "human being". In D&D, it definitely applies to at least all playable races.

On another note, it's pretty sad, but it shows that V is really learning from his mistakes. And that he really cares for his family (which we already knew, of course).

I hope things will get better somehow, although I'm not sure how much they can improve :(