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View Full Version : Vorpalizing a Weapon [3.5]



FinalJustice
2009-09-13, 08:41 PM
Hello fellas, does anyone know a method to turn a weapon into vorpal that doesn't involve forking over a truck of gold? Spells, preferentially, but feats or PrCs might do.

5 Levels of Kensai or, god forbid, Soulknife are the best I could come up so far. Both are inviable to me.

Thanks in advance. ;)

quick_comment
2009-09-13, 08:42 PM
The greater weapon augmentation infusion

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-13, 08:43 PM
Why bother? Vorpal sucks in 3.5. Only works on a nat 20, not just a confirmed crit, and isn't effective vs much by the time you can get it.

Alleine
2009-09-13, 08:45 PM
Leadership, get a cohort with levels in fiend of possession from the Fiend Folio. They can posses a weapon an essentially enchant it for a bonus(or equivalent bonus) as high as their FoP level.

Korivan
2009-09-13, 08:50 PM
Why bother? Vorpal sucks in 3.5. Only works on a nat 20, not just a confirmed crit, and isn't effective vs much by the time you can get it.

Earlier editions:
DM: The mage identifies the weapon you picked up possessing the Vorpal qualities...
Player: :smalleek: YAAAAAHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

3-3.5 edition:
DM: The mage identifies the weapon you picked up possessing the Vorpal qualities...
Player: Well, its still worth alot. I try to sell it...
DM: He says he doesn't want it, and no weaponsmith in town will buy it.
Player: :smallfrown:

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-13, 08:52 PM
Earlier editions:
DM: The mage identifies the weapon you picked up possessing the Vorpal qualities...
Player: :smalleek: YAAAAAHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

3-3.5 edition:
DM: The mage identifies the weapon you picked up possessing the Vorpal qualities...
Player: Well, its still worth alot. I try to sell it...
DM: He says he doesn't want it, and no weaponsmith in town will buy it.
Player: :smallfrown:

Blessed With Suck at its finest. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlessedWithSuck)

FinalJustice
2009-09-13, 08:53 PM
Yeah, I know, Vorpal sucks beyond measure. It's part of a character concept and I really, really don't want to spend almost half my WBL in it.

quick_comment
2009-09-13, 08:54 PM
Vorpal becomes really, really broken when you are a cleric who can cast surge of fortune.

FinalJustice
2009-09-13, 09:03 PM
This may also be part of my character concept, yes. =P

(Don't worry, I don't plan to sneak around and break games, as unlikely as this may sound)

Keld Denar
2009-09-13, 09:19 PM
Blessed With Suck at its finest. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlessedWithSuck)

DEWD!!! Sinfire...seriously? Friends don't let friends link TVTropes... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)

ericgrau
2009-09-13, 09:25 PM
A typical high level character might hit 3-4 times around (across more attacks than that), or just once on single attacks. After about 8 rounds you'll knock someone's head off. So maybe once every fight or two. Maybe not the greatest thing, but it doesn't suck. IMO it's more feared in the hands of monsters, though, since PCs will probably kill with damage quickly enough anyway. Lucky monsters, OTOH, get "I killed a PC" t-shirts that they otherwise might have no hope of obtaining.

As for how often it works:
Yes: animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, outsider (including demons, etc.), vermin
No: construct, elemental, ooze, plant, undead

Note that creatures from each list tend to be found at all levels. I don't buy into "good stuff doesn't work at high levels b/c high level monsters are immune" arguments. Well, except with SR, which is intentionally set up this way.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-13, 11:42 PM
A typical high level character might hit 3-4 times around (across more attacks than that), or just once on single attacks. After about 8 rounds you'll knock someone's head off. So maybe once every fight or two. Maybe not the greatest thing, but it doesn't suck. IMO it's more feared in the hands of monsters, though, since PCs will probably kill with damage quickly enough anyway. Lucky monsters, OTOH, get "I killed a PC" t-shirts that they otherwise might have no hope of obtaining.+5 enhancement. We're talking about adding 70K at the minimum to the price for something that kicks in once every 4 rounds at best(4 attacks from BAB, +1 haste), assuming you beat their AC, and then only works on one target that a confirmed crit probably would have killed anyways(If you're waiting for a nat-20, you're looking at x3 or better).

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-13, 11:59 PM
DEWD!!! Sinfire...seriously? Friends don't let friends link TVTropes... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)

You may not be aware of this, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouShouldKnowThisAlready)but I'm a Chaos Cultist of Tzeentch. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SinfireTitan) Spreading entropy is one of our jobs... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)

Gan The Grey
2009-09-14, 04:11 AM
You can double your vorpal chances with one of the luck feats from Complete Scoundrel. I don't remember the name, but it allows you to spend a luck reroll when ever you roll a 1 in order to treat it as a 20.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-14, 05:36 AM
You can double your vorpal chances with one of the luck feats from Complete Scoundrel. I don't remember the name, but it allows you to spend a luck reroll when ever you roll a 1 in order to treat it as a 20.
That would be Better Lucky Than Good. But you need two luck feats as prerequisites.

Adumbration
2009-09-14, 06:26 AM
DEWD!!! Sinfire...seriously? Friends don't let friends link TVTropes... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)

I concur. I just got trapped for 2 and a half hours. I also found 4 references to the Giantitp forums. :smalltongue:

Atelm
2009-09-14, 06:39 AM
I concur. I just got trapped for 2 and a half hours. I also found 4 references to the Giantitp forums. :smalltongue:

Happens to me all the time, mostly in the form of a Wiki Walk (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WikiWalk). :smallamused:

Keewatin
2009-09-14, 09:03 AM
Was there any reason given why vorpal switched from any crit to just natural 20? I mean once they got rid of stacking crit buffs you would think that solved the issue:smallconfused:

Grumman
2009-09-14, 09:16 AM
Was there any reason given why vorpal switched from any crit to just natural 20? I mean once they got rid of stacking crit buffs you would think that solved the issue:smallconfused:
That's still a 30% chance, with the right weapon.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 09:21 AM
1. the things you are fighting at the point where you can get a +5 sword are all immune to beheading.
2. the +5 bonus is more deadly against things that aren't immune to beheading.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 09:22 AM
I concur. I just got trapped for 2 and a half hours. I also found 4 references to the Giantitp forums. :smalltongue:

i got you beat... 6 hours.

Telonius
2009-09-14, 09:34 AM
Was there any reason given why vorpal switched from any crit to just natural 20? I mean once they got rid of stacking crit buffs you would think that solved the issue:smallconfused:

I have a feeling it was due to them being worried about how many attacks you could get. For an extreme example, a Hasted Greater TWF Fighter 20 with Improved Critical and two Vorpal Kukris. (Don't ask me how he afforded that or survived to be level 20). 18/18/18/13/13/8/8/3 before Str and other bonuses. Assuming all of them hit (which is a big assumption), that's 8 hits, each with a 30% chance of being a critical. You would behead two things per full attack if it were based on crits. That's not counting any extra attacks you might get from Great Cleave, which I assume the designers thought every Fighter would want to take. Even if you went with just a single Improved Crit Vorpal Falchion, without Haste, that's 20/15/10/5. If all four hit, each with a 30% chance of a crit, you would still behead something once per full attack if it were based on crits instead of natural 20s.

Mongoose87
2009-09-14, 09:37 AM
I thought Vorpal weapons severed your Astral cord or something like that, rather than removing your head?

Eldariel
2009-09-14, 09:40 AM
I thought Vorpal weapons severed your Astral cord or something like that, rather than removing your head?

That's the Githyanki Silver Sword.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-14, 11:56 AM
That's the Githyanki Silver Sword.

Same effect though, just one needs to be on the Astral Plane to function.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-14, 12:07 PM
Same effect though, just one needs to be on the Astral Plane to function.

Not quite. If you have more than an head, in astral plane you are auto-killed with the Silver Sword.

Emy
2009-09-14, 12:34 PM
There's always the Artificer's Retain Essence class feature.

Spiryt
2009-09-14, 12:39 PM
Was there any reason given why vorpal switched from any crit to just natural 20? I mean once they got rid of stacking crit buffs you would think that solved the issue:smallconfused:

That would unbalance things towards often criting weapons a bit, or rather, there would be no point in putting Vorpal on axe, for example.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 09:29 PM
That would unbalance things towards often criting weapons a bit, or rather, there would be no point in putting Vorpal on axe, for example.

so? not everything must be the exact same thing in a different appearance.

Yea, no point of putting vorpal on an axe. Also no point of weilding most sub optimal weapons... except things like vorpal, trips, etc GIVE points to those weapons.

Heliomance
2009-09-14, 10:51 PM
If you try, you can get a 9-20 crit range. You can't tell me making vorpal fire off that is a good idea.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-14, 10:56 PM
so? not everything must be the exact same thing in a different appearance.

Yea, no point of putting vorpal on an axe. Also no point of weilding most sub optimal weapons... except things like vorpal, trips, etc GIVE points to those weapons.There's already major benefits to high-crit weapons, they don't need more(Google Lightning Maces if you don't agree). And if you did make Vorpal apply on any crit, you'd be looking at 1 hit out of 4(Keen Vorpal Kukri) killing something, and a halfway-decent full-attack hits 4+ times. It's too good in that case.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 11:01 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vorpal

Maybe it isn't a good idea... still we are talking about an otherwise useless +5 enchancement that is supposed to be the ultimate weapon. Yet it ONLY works against a very limited set of creatures.

Than again, I don't like vorpal as a mechanic. Not due to PLAYER use, frankly it will help with the problem of linear fighters quadratic wizards.

But a 5% chance (or more as per old description) per attack roll to attempt a confirm roll to instakill a PC OR an NPC regardless of level without a save or regard to any protection in place is a huge problem...

Granted, at this point death should be a mild inconvinience.

Anyways, twin kurikis with vorpal and all feats put into maxing out crit chance would make for a viable alternative for a shock trooper build dishing out 300 HP damage per round. The Shock Trooper can kill less uber high level humans... but he is more effective against groups of somewhat lower level enemies AND he is effective at ALL against the majority of monsters at that point... which are all immune to vorpal weaponry.
Frankly, id pick the straight damage dealer since it can actually kill anything.

So really, what exactly are the PCs attacking at this point that isn't totally immune to this "ultimate enhancement"?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-14, 11:11 PM
Anyways, twin kurikis with vorpal and all feats put into maxing out crit chance would make for a viable alternative for a shock trooper build dishing out 300 HP damage per round. The Shock Trooper can kill less uber high level humans... but he is more effective against groups of somewhat lower level enemies AND he is effective at ALL against the majority of monsters at that point... which are all immune to vorpal weaponry.
Frankly, id pick the straight damage dealer since it can actually kill anything.You're overestimating the optimization necessary. TWF Rogue. Has taken the TWF line, Imp Crit(Kukri), and a bunch of stuff like Craven that we don't care about. 15th level since that's when you can afford 2 +6 weapons, and you get a feat at that level that you can spend on Imp Crit. He also has a method of Haste(Boots of Speed most likely). His attack routine looks like +9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1, for 7 attacks each with a 30% chance of head-cutting.

As for what he can affect, most BBEGs(Dragons, Evil[non-lich] Wizards, evil emperors) are still vulnerable, and they're the ones that matter most.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 11:14 PM
don't rogues have it WORSE than warriors what with everything at levels 20+ being immune to crits, poisons, etc as well (and probably blindsense / true sight)? making them a weaker warrior version?

I have never player a level 20 rogue, correct me if am wrong. But it seems to be only fair to make them at least useful for something... so the warrior deals massive damage, the rogue can insta gib humanoids... the rare few encountered at that point.


As for what he can affect, most BBEGs(Dragons, Evil[non-lich] Wizards, evil emperors) are still vulnerable, and they're the ones that matter most.
What class is an "evil emperor"? What level 20 evil wizard ISN'T a lich? you can turn lich at level 11! (IIRC)
And dragons... good, ONE SINGLE ENEMY TYPE! And he better believe it that if he starts hunting down dragons a dragon lich with caster levels will come after him.

Animefunkmaster
2009-09-14, 11:24 PM
See if your DM will let you use Greater Magic Weapon to obtain weapon special qualities that are of equal value to enhancement bonuses. Sounds reasonable.

Alternatively you could look up weapon bonding rituals in dmg 2 (no feat or class ability required but a flavorful true bond ritual feat to get a little more out of your ritual). Now your only paying the crafting cost for your bonded weapon.

While not on a weapon I recall a feat chain the ended up giving your unarmed strikes the vorpal quality.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 11:29 PM
See if your DM will let you use Greater Magic Weapon to obtain weapon special qualities that are of equal value to enhancement bonuses. Sounds reasonable.

Alternatively you could look up weapon bonding rituals in dmg 2 (no feat or class ability required but a flavorful true bond ritual feat to get a little more out of your ritual). Now your only paying the crafting cost for your bonded weapon.

While not on a weapon I recall a feat chain the ended up giving your unarmed strikes the vorpal quality.

if you refer to me, I am not interested in this now. I am playing a rearranger, and my next character is not gonna be a warrior / rogue.

I am talking from an academic game design perspective, not munchikin player who wants his favorite powers position.

The only thing I saw this does better than a warrior can of horror is the ability to kill dragons, and good aligned high level wizards.
At the cost of being useless gainst anything else...

Also... +6 weapon at level 20? I thought weapons above +5 were epic and required an order of magnitude more resources to get.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-14, 11:32 PM
don't rogues have it WORSE than warriors what with everything at levels 20+ being immune to crits, poisons, etc as well (and probably blindsense / true sight)? making them a weaker warrior version?I was showing how it could be done core with a low-AB class that often takes TWF. There's other builds that do it just as well.

And yes, that's why Rogues either figure out a way to overcome immunity or they suck. Though most rely on flanking rather than invisibility.
I have never player a level 20 rogue, correct me if am wrong. But it seems to be only fair to make them at least useful for something... so the warrior deals massive damage, the rogue can insta gib humanoids... the rare few encountered at that point.Something that is the only viable option is a bad option, a band-aid rather than a fix to the problem. And the Rogue can already insta-gib humanoids(and most opponents), it's a small chunk that he needs help against.
What class is an "evil emperor"?Example of what sort of thing you're likely to be facing that isn't immune, shorthand for "humanoid"
What level 20 evil wizard ISN'T a lich? you can turn lich at level 11! (IIRC)Yes, but Lichdom isn't immortality, and tends to eliminate any political power you might have, not to mention the cost associated with it and the fact that you lose a lot as well. [/quote]And dragons... good, ONE SINGLE ENEMY TYPE! [/QUOTE]As well as Magical Beasts, Outsiders, Giants, Animals, Fey, and Monstrous Humanoids.
And he better believe it that if he starts hunting down dragons a dragon lich with caster levels will come after him.So there's an upper limit on effectiveness after which you lose? Why doesn't that happen to other builds?

taltamir
2009-09-14, 11:44 PM
So there's an upper limit on effectiveness after which you lose? Why doesn't that happen to other builds?
Who said you lose? you and your party can survive... it is simple the law of abusing and recourse. (made up the name)...

if you start abusing powers, the world will react (specifically the DM). Or do you think the party should stick back as the rogue insta gibs dragon after dragon looting their horde?
Or that a wizard gets to summon effrit after effirt for free wishes?
Or attempt, and fail, to bind a demon prince / a god?


Yes, but Lichdom isn't immortality, and tends to eliminate any political power you might have, not to mention the cost associated with it and the fact that you lose a lot as well.
Lichdom is the ONLY immortality by the RAW the doesn't subvert your mind (aka, turning into a vampire changes your alignment)

And I'd sure like to SEE someone stand up to lich king, that would be hillarious. He can also hide his... nature, at this point in time.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-14, 11:55 PM
Who said you lose? you and your party can survive... it is simple the law of abusing and recourse. (made up the name)...

if you start abusing powers, the world will react (specifically the DM). Or do you think the party should stick back as the rogue insta gibs dragon after dragon looting their horde?
Or that a wizard gets to summon effrit after effirt for free wishes?
Or attempt, and fail, to bind a demon prince / a god?I think the world should react realistically, but that most of the time, a realistic Evil Dragon is not going to go hunting a dragon-slayer who is wiping out his competition. Yes, PCs make enemies, but most of the time, a boost in power shouldn't attract people to fight you.
Lichdom is the ONLY immortality by the RAW the doesn't subvert your mind (aka, turning into a vampire changes your alignment)Actually, it does. This is a subject of often debate because by RAW there is no reason Liches should be Evil, but becoming one makes you Evil. And there are much better ways of immortality, including the BoVD spell that allows you to drain life force to fuel yourself.
And I'd sure like to SEE someone stand up to lich king, that would be hillarious. He can also hide his... nature, at this point in time.Not really. Disguising as a different race isn't easy, especially when all of the flesh has fallen off of your bones. And other rulers may dislike allying with you when you're an undead incarnation of evil, making you have a much harder (mockery of) life.

Not to mention the fact that now the Church of Pelor would like to have a word. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-09-15, 12:06 AM
I think the world should react realistically, but that most of the time, a realistic Evil Dragon is not going to go hunting a dragon-slayer who is wiping out his competition.

Unless those are his progeny, not competition. The evil heartless bastard is such a cliche.
Evil does not mean "kill everything and everyone"... there are many many dragons, elves, humans, and whatever to be hostile too... family is the only ones you can trust! And if sacrificing a few innocents to your dark gods for personal power and maybe benefit your children... eh, you can't make an omlet without breaking a few sacrificial knives.


Yes, PCs make enemies, but most of the time, a boost in power shouldn't attract people to fight you.
It doesn't, the SPECIFIC USE you are putting it to COULD.


Actually, it does. This is a subject of often debate because by RAW there is no reason Liches should be Evil, but becoming one makes you Evil.
The explanation, by the raw, is that the PROCESS of becoming a lich through your own powers is an evil act. Involving horrible unspeakable acts TM. If, say, your god decides to transform you into one with its devine powers with you performing such obscene rituals, then you are not evil. Generally it is power hungry evil bastards without a heart. It doesn't help that it has such a bad name that few will actually TRY it. OR have access to it without performing evil (example, slaying the guards in the magic library and stealing the tomes)


Not really. Disguising as a different race isn't easy, especially when all of the flesh has fallen off of your bones. And other rulers may dislike allying with you when you're an undead incarnation of evil, making you have a much harder (mockery of) life.

First, there are tons of magical and non magical methods. Second:
1. Replace your private guards with less... moral guards.
2. Dominate the minds of those who... require domination. Geas works great here.
3. Perform evil ceremony to become lich
4. Never meet other rulers in person... envoys can be first put under mind affecting spells to ensure they see what they should see. If someone EVER breaks into your inner sanctum, you slay / geas them / whatever.


Not to mention the fact that now the Church of Pelor would like to have a word. :smallwink:
Aha, yes, but the gods are not all knowing... otherwise palor would have prevented ANYONE from becoming a lich. All those lichs running around means that they can somehow hide from the various celestials.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-15, 02:43 AM
Isn't this kind of a moot conversation? The fact is, your DM will do what your DM will do. If you pick up a vorpal weapon, and use it in moderation, your DM should allow you situations for that choice to shine. However, if you abuse a vorpal weapon, you should be punished with increasingly dire circumstances. Anything else is the sign of a bad DM.

The way you all argue...you act like DnD a preprogrammed world, not one run by a DM.

As for what a vorpal weapon is useful against...aren't there more creatures WITH heads than without? And...shouldn't a vorpal weapon be treated much like a flaming sword or acidic axe? Keep multiple weapons on hand for multiple situations?

Grumman
2009-09-15, 03:55 AM
And...shouldn't a vorpal weapon be treated much like a flaming sword or acidic axe? Keep multiple weapons on hand for multiple situations?
No, because special materials and elemental damage boosters are cheap. Vorpal weapons are not. If you're going to spend a minimum of 72,000 gp on a weapon, you're probably going to want to get your money's worth.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 04:34 AM
You're overestimating the optimization necessary. TWF Rogue. Has taken the TWF line, Imp Crit(Kukri), and a bunch of stuff like Craven that we don't care about. 15th level since that's when you can afford 2 +6 weapons, and you get a feat at that level that you can spend on Imp Crit. He also has a method of Haste(Boots of Speed most likely). His attack routine looks like +9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1, for 7 attacks each with a 30% chance of head-cutting.

As for what he can affect, most BBEGs(Dragons, Evil[non-lich] Wizards, evil emperors) are still vulnerable, and they're the ones that matter most.

Problem with this is that when you have this number of attacks, for most things that can be vorpal'd... Wounding is just as effective, if not moreso, and a lot cheaper.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-15, 05:14 AM
Everyone is always saying that relying on hit point damage to kill an opponent is the worst way to go. With a decent build, wouldn't having a 10% chance per attack to outright kill an opponent be better than having to whittle away at its HP? Not to mention the fact that you are STILL doing decent damage even if you don't vorpalize it, as at that level, a good melee-er shouldn't be relying on the damage output of the weapon itself, but in the way (power attack, leap attack, two-handed weapon) he uses it?

The real question is...by the level one should get vorpal...what are the chances that a fighter of that level wielding a vorpal weapon will kill a vulnerable target vs. a fighter with a similar +6 weapon (same weapon i.e. dagger, long sword, scythe) fighting the same target?

I would assume that lower HP targets would favor the non-vorpal weapon and high HP targets would favor the vorpal weapon. Any math whizzes out there tonight? :smallsmile:

Gan The Grey
2009-09-15, 05:27 AM
Problem with this is that when you have this number of attacks, for most things that can be vorpal'd... Wounding is just as effective, if not moreso, and a lot cheaper.

I fail to see how. But, maybe, its just because of the 'I fail' part. :smallsmile:

One thing about his description that caught my eye is the abysmal to hit values of each of his attacks. Anything with a decent AC will be nigh-unhittable. Anything with an AC above a 23 (which would be EVERYTHING I hope at level 15) would render his fourth attack and beyond near useless on anything but a 20, and his first three attacks would have a 25% chance or less to hit. This gets better with weapon finesse and to hit enchants of course, but it seems to me like many of your attacks really be that useful, only finding flesh on a natural 20 anyway.

With that many attacks, it just makes regular vorpal that much more interesting, especially when you pick up a few luck feats to get Better Lucky than Good (allowing you to spend a luck reroll to treat a one as a twenty). With that many attacks, you are bound to fumble alot. Why not just lop off a bunch of heads instead?

Telonius
2009-09-15, 08:23 AM
So really, what exactly are the PCs attacking at this point that isn't totally immune to this "ultimate enhancement"?

CR 15 or higher:
Dragons of all varieties
High-CR angels, archons, demons and devils
Frost Jarl Giant
Aboleth Mage
Formian Queen
Titan
Advanced Humanoids, Giants, Fey, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, and Outsiders that don't have Heavy Fortification Armor or active Death Ward.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-15, 08:37 AM
I really fail to see how this weapon quality is considered so weak by many. A lucky roll, and the BBEG is dead. More, if you read it, you see that critical immunity makes not immune to beheading by vorpal (there is an example made with vampires) and so you die even with an heavy fortification armor.

We had a TWF fighter (yes, not optimized so much) with both vorpal and overwhelming critical at epic and in a 8 attack turn (barring the crapload of AOOs) almost nothing resisted, for the damage, the save or die or the vorpal.

Sliver
2009-09-15, 08:59 AM
Paying 72k gp extra (+1 vorpal) for something that has a chance to work 5% in each attack has never sounded better!
If you have a lot of attacks per round and your only chance to hit is rolling a nat 20, something went wrong. Unless the DM made a creature with huge AC and immune to everything so that you will have a chance to show off..

Telonius
2009-09-15, 09:06 AM
Vorpal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vorpal):


This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)

Fortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification):

This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

Interesting ... this would probably be a DM call as to which rule is more important. The text of Vorpal specifically mentions Vampires and other undead, as well as Golems (constructs) as possible targets for Vorpal, so being immune to critical hits as part of your Type doesn't seem to matter to Vorpal. If a Vorpal weapon hits on a natural 20, undead or not, it still needs to confirm a critical hit in order to activate the Vorpal quality. Heavy Fortification says there's a 100% chance that a confirmed critical would be negated. So an actual critical hit is negated rather than the creature having blanket immunity to criticals. Personally I think that this means Heavy Fortification negates the critical, therefore making a beheading impossible; but even I'll say that's a pretty fine distinction.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-15, 09:09 AM
Paying 72k gp extra (+1 vorpal) for something that has a chance to work 5% in each attack has never sounded better!
If you have a lot of attacks per round and your only chance to hit is rolling a nat 20, something went wrong. Unless the DM made a creature with huge AC and immune to everything so that you will have a chance to show off..

This sound odd to me. It's like people who say that 18-20 /x2 weapons and 20 /x4 are equals. In the long road maybe, but in a game in wich you teleport, heal, flee and make tactical decisions basing on the damage, and you are up with 1 HP and down at -1, a likely "low" damage crit and a frightening burst are not the same.

In a similar manner, a vorpal can one shot a boss. Not so likely, but the time it happens, wow. Even worser when you shot a boss that is not the final one. You now are likely to have more resources for the final boss.

Crit Happens.

Don't get me wrong - I like melee with nice things. So I suggest to the OP:

- Find a Vorpal Boar from MMII

- Take (carefully) his tusks

- Use them as improvised (-4 to hit) vorpal slashing weapons

As a DM, I WOULDN'T allow it. But if your does..




Interesting ... this would probably be a DM call as to which rule is more important. .

I don't see the need for DM call. You have mechanically the way to behead: 20, confirmation roll, period.

If you are immune to critical AND beheading does not kill you, you don't die.

If you are immune to critical AND beheading does kill you, you die.

I really dont' see the issue.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-15, 09:18 AM
On the other hand, think of all the times when you would have killed something with flaming damage or whatever but didn't because you spent all your money on a weapon effect that didn't even go off. That stuff works both ways.

FinalJustice
2009-09-15, 09:24 AM
The Vorpal Boar is actually a great idea! Thanks!

But, if we're already summoning a Vorpal Boar and sucking the -4 for improvised weapon, I see no reason to take the poor boar's tusks. Might as well swing the boar. What's the size of this bad boy again?

mikej
2009-09-15, 09:34 AM
The Vorpal Boar is actually a great idea! Thanks!

But, if we're already summoning a Vorpal Boar and sucking the -4 for improvised weapon, I see no reason to take the poor boar's tusks. Might as well swing the boar. What's the size of this bad boy again?

Large.

Razor Boar is also in the SRD Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/razorBoar.htm)

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-15, 09:41 AM
The Vorpal Boar is actually a great idea! Thanks!

But, if we're already summoning a Vorpal Boar and sucking the -4 for improvised weapon, I see no reason to take the poor boar's tusks. Might as well swing the boar. What's the size of this bad boy again?

Another way more RAW could be simply catch one of these beasts and train them. You wouldn't have a vorpal for a while, but your mount could.

Just to say.

Telonius
2009-09-15, 10:20 AM
I don't see the need for DM call. You have mechanically the way to behead: 20, confirmation roll, period.

If you are immune to critical AND beheading does not kill you, you don't die.

If you are immune to critical AND beheading does kill you, you die.

I really dont' see the issue.

The issue, as I see it, is whether or not Fortification grants immunity to criticals. From my read of it, it doesn't specifically grant "immunity" to criticals, it just has a chance (100% chance in the case of Heavy) to undo the effect of a critical when it happens.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-15, 10:27 AM
The issue, as I see it, is whether or not Fortification grants immunity to criticals. From my read of it, it doesn't specifically grant "immunity" to criticals, it just has a chance (100% chance in the case of Heavy) to undo the effect of a critical when it happens.

Now I see.. you mean that this could avoid the triggering of the vorpal. IMHO is not the case - that's only how the armor power is spelled.

If the weapon triggers with enemies ALWAYS immune to critical, works against those wearing the armor too.

IMHO, the critical confirmation is a mere mechanical (and maybe "simulationist") way to show the precise strike at the neck.

ericgrau
2009-09-15, 10:30 AM
As for paying 70k or more for vorpal, it'll seem cheaper as you hit high levels. Worth it? Maybe at that point. You see high CR demon, put away regular sword, draw vorpal sword. Is it uber? No.

Sliver
2009-09-15, 10:31 AM
This sound odd to me. It's like people who say that 18-20 /x2 weapons and 20 /x4 are equals. In the long road maybe, but in a game in wich you teleport, heal, flee and make tactical decisions basing on the damage, and you are up with 1 HP and down at -1, a likely "low" damage crit and a frightening burst are not the same.

In a similar manner, a vorpal can one shot a boss. Not so likely, but the time it happens, wow. Even worser when you shot a boss that is not the final one. You now are likely to have more resources for the final boss.

Crit Happens.

Look, I'm not saying that vorpal doesn't sound cool and is useless, I'm just saying that paying up for a +5 enchantment that has a chance to go off 5% of your attacks, isn't worth it. Look at bane, that is pretty specific enchantment that works well if you know whats going on or lucky or just have one of each, but compared to the other damage enchantments, it gives you a +2 to hit and +1d6 more then say.. flaming. Its effectiveness depends on how well you know what you are going to face and the DM.
Vorpal, a +5 enchantement that depends on luck and thats it.
You say that beheading the boss is cool, but you could crit a minion as well.
Its a heavy investment in luck, thats all I say. Better pay up for something you can control better..

Teron
2009-09-15, 12:06 PM
Consider that, instead of a +1 vorpal weapon, you could have a +3 keen collision scythe for the same price, which effortlessly deals over 100 damage on a critical hit, is twice as likely to crit as the vorpal weapon, works on some headless and multi-headed creatures, hits and confirms crits more often, and deals more damage on normal hits. And that's hardly the best weapon at that price...

Gan The Grey
2009-09-15, 03:21 PM
I didn't realize you had to confirm the crit to behead with it.

Okay, so....fighter 10/Fortune's Friend 5 picks up a +1 Solarian Truesteel Vorpal Longsword. Takes the Power Critical Feat(+4 to confirm critical), a few luck feats to get Better Lucky than Good(spend luck reroll to treat 1 as 20). I think there is also a luck feat that allows you to automatically confirm a critical, or at least reroll one.

Just with those....with a strength of 20, weapon focus... +19/+14/+9 attacks...you would have a 10% chance per attack to get a 20 (with luck reroll on a 1), and a +5 to confirm that critical. Add in a few more weapon feats, and I think vorpal could be fun!

ericgrau
2009-09-15, 03:30 PM
Consider that, instead of a +1 vorpal weapon, you could have a +3 keen collision scythe for the same price, which effortlessly deals over 100 damage on a critical hit, is twice as likely to crit as the vorpal weapon, works on some headless and multi-headed creatures, hits and confirms crits more often, and deals more damage on normal hits. And that's hardly the best weapon at that price...

Which is around 1/3 the damage you need to kill a high CR demon/dragon/etc., or less. Like I said, vorpal costs too much early, but can be something handy to have in the bag 'o swords later.

Teron
2009-09-15, 05:05 PM
By "effortlessly", I meant with just 18 strength and a five point Power Attack -- at high levels, it can go a lot higher. And that 100 damage or more (which you're getting slightly over twice as often as a vorpal weapon would trigger) adds up with the damage dealt by your regular blows and the other party members to end the fight faster, whereas vorpal is all or nothing -- it may kill an enemy on the first swing, when that enemy has five hit points left, or not at all.

Furthermore, a +6 equivalent weapon is far too expensive to carry as a back-up at anything but the very highest levels.

Keewatin
2009-09-15, 05:11 PM
Would it be better to make vorpal happen more often but give it a save?

like happens on any crit with the confirmation attack roll as the save DC?

taltamir
2009-09-15, 06:53 PM
I fail to see how. But, maybe, its just because of the 'I fail' part. :smallsmile:

One thing about his description that caught my eye is the abysmal to hit values of each of his attacks. Anything with a decent AC will be nigh-unhittable. Anything with an AC above a 23 (which would be EVERYTHING I hope at level 15) would render his fourth attack and beyond near useless on anything but a 20, and his first three attacks would have a 25% chance or less to hit. This gets better with weapon finesse and to hit enchants of course, but it seems to me like many of your attacks really be that useful, only finding flesh on a natural 20 anyway.

With that many attacks, it just makes regular vorpal that much more interesting, especially when you pick up a few luck feats to get Better Lucky than Good (allowing you to spend a luck reroll to treat a one as a twenty). With that many attacks, you are bound to fumble alot. Why not just lop off a bunch of heads instead?

good point... and even on a nat 20 with a vorpal weapon, if you fail to confirm it you fail to behead it.
This means that everything beyond the 4th attack CANNOT vorpal anything, so the math thus far has been wrong.

EDIT: nm, it was already noticed and said.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-16, 02:00 AM
I you built your party around efficient buffing/debuffing, and play smart, even 4th attack hits.

Failing this, remember that nobody forbid you to use later attacks of the full attack to deliver touches, if viable (like trip attempts).

In my experience, he way you manage your full attack makes you a good or bad warrior.

(how often you deliver a full attack makes you a better or worse builder, someone could argue :smallwink:)


Which is around 1/3 the damage you need to kill a high CR demon/dragon/etc., or less. Like I said, vorpal costs too much early, but can be something handy to have in the bag 'o swords later.

At least in my experience with later levels.. definitively.