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View Full Version : is there any sort of extended clip for a repeating crossbow?



Wafflecart
2009-09-13, 10:32 PM
I think the title says everthing except that it is DnD 3.5

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-13, 10:35 PM
There's an enhancement in the MIC that turns any crossbow into a Repeater with 100 shots before needing to be manually reloaded.

Wafflecart
2009-09-13, 10:39 PM
There's an enhancement in the MIC that turns any crossbow into a Repeater with 100 shots before needing to be manually reloaded.

wouldnt happen to know the name offhand would you? =)

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-13, 10:47 PM
wouldnt happen to know the name offhand would you? =)

Not, off the top of my head, but fortunately I have my copy right next to me. Quickloading.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-13, 10:48 PM
I think the title says everthing except that it is DnD 3.5

You can do this with a crossbow in real life by having a magazine above the crossbow feed downwards into it through gravity.

Wafflecart
2009-09-13, 10:50 PM
You can do this with a crossbow in real life by having a magazine above the crossbow feed downwards into it through gravity.

Im mainly wondering if there is an actual item, or if I am going to end up homebrewing again.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-13, 10:52 PM
Not in DnD, as far as I am aware.

Wafflecart
2009-09-13, 11:01 PM
dang...it's starting to look a lot like homebrew again....

Wafflecart
2009-09-13, 11:08 PM
Not, off the top of my head, but fortunately I have my copy right next to me. Quickloading.

Thanks dude...hmm...so would that work with a repeater though?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-13, 11:29 PM
Thanks dude...hmm...so would that work with a repeater though?

It says it can be applied to a crossbow, but applying it to a Light crossbow effectively turns it into 20 Repeater crossbows each with a damage die increase.

FMArthur
2009-09-14, 02:37 AM
Repeating crossbows are a very strange trap option to me. They're Strange thematically, since everything else in the PHB is about what most generic adventurers need to get started, with bizarre specialized options appearing elsewhere; even the other exotic weapons say "wait, what?" when they see the repeating crossbows. And they're strange logically, in that they are invalidated as a useful option by default in the same book by Rapid Reload; usually things that unintentionally obviate other options are at least in a different book.

BooNL
2009-09-14, 03:22 AM
Light repeating crossbows are terrible. They get obsoleted by a regular crossbow and Rapid Reload. Heavy's on the other hand provide some option, though they aren't the most optimized way to play.

They are incredebly flavorful though and I've always wanted to play a gnome tinkerer using a repeating crossbow. If you're starting a higher level game though. I would suggest using a regular crossbow enchanted with Quickload and just refluff that to being a suped-up repeating crossbow.

That way you can have you cake and eat it too!

Fizban
2009-09-14, 04:45 AM
There's an enhancement in the MIC that turns any crossbow into a Repeater with 100 shots before needing to be manually reloaded.

The thing is, while the mechanics are spelled out, the fluff says it loads the bolt. Except loading the bolt is already free action, and the thing that needs to be reduced is pulling the lever, which is a move action...which the enhancement doesn't effect. You could just say it does that too, but it bugs me.

And going completely against my non-houseruling stance in the above paragraph: never use repeating crossbows as heavy weapons. Make them simple weapons that cost a lot of gold (they already do) and expand the magazine to at least 10 bolts, and they're just fine. I too love the image of the repeating crossbow (pump action, side bolt thingy action, oversized lever action, it's all good!), and it makes absolutely no sense that they're exotic when all you do is pull a free action lever instead of a move action lever.

The only thing I don't like is that a crossbow makes no sense being automatic. Sure, I want a fully automatic crossbow, but it doesn't work like that. Only way you're going to pull that off is with either A: magic bullets (defeats the purpose), or B: some sort of cylinder filled with a bazillion springs that each shoot a bolt once. It just feasible enough that a mad tinker could pull it off, but only because they're immune to logic.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-14, 05:00 AM
The thing is, while the mechanics are spelled out, the fluff says it loads the bolt. Except loading the bolt is already free action
No, loading the bolt isn't a free action. Drawing a bolt (out of a quiver, or whatever) is a free action, but inserting it into the crossbow and pulling back the string-drawing (dang censor filter!) lever is normally a move action.

The quick loading enhancement (+1 weapon enhancement cost, from MIC) retrieves the next bolt and inserts it into place automatically. For a light crossbow the rest of the operation is a free action, but you still need both hands.

The self-loading enhancement (+10,000 gp cost, from Arms and Equipment Guide) does the job of pulling back the string. If your crossbow has both these enhancements you've got yourself a semi-automatic weapon.

Fizban
2009-09-14, 09:56 AM
No, loading the bolt isn't a free action. Drawing a bolt (out of a quiver, or whatever) is a free action, but inserting it into the crossbow and pulling back the string-drawing (dang censor filter!) lever is normally a move action.

The quick loading enhancement (+1 weapon enhancement cost, from MIC) retrieves the next bolt and inserts it into place automatically. For a light crossbow the rest of the operation is a free action, but you still need both hands.

The self-loading enhancement (+10,000 gp cost, from Arms and Equipment Guide) does the job of pulling back the string. If your crossbow has both these enhancements you've got yourself a semi-automatic weapon.

A quick glance renders me unable to find anything to refute your point. I'd compare it to nocking the arrow to a longbow, but considering how fast they shoot in DnD I'm sure most people would consider it part of making the attack. Considering that a simple drop feed is able to slot the bolt well enough to fire I wouldn't think it would take a significant amount of time compared to getting the bolt out of the quiver, but again, no hard evidence. I'm going to say I think they're both valid for now.

As for self loading, and stacking magic for auto crossbows in general, from what I've read in threads a lot of DMs just won't let you. If they're in any way opposed to the idea you won't get more than one loading enhancement if that, and talk seems to make it more likely you'll pull off a dude with a prehensile tail for reloading more easily than just getting a crossbow that works. Then you have the flipside of the DM being okay with it and just giving you the freebie. The whole issue turns into a headache trying to figure out the right combination of mundane, magic, feat, and race/template to get past schrodenger's DM, for me at least.

The Rose Dragon
2009-09-14, 09:59 AM
No, loading the bolt isn't a free action. Drawing a bolt (out of a quiver, or whatever) is a free action, but inserting it into the crossbow and pulling back the string-drawing (dang censor filter!) lever is normally a move action.

You mean the cocking lever?

RS14
2009-09-14, 10:09 AM
The only thing I don't like is that a crossbow makes no sense being automatic. Sure, I want a fully automatic crossbow, but it doesn't work like that. Only way you're going to pull that off is with either A: magic bullets (defeats the purpose), or B: some sort of cylinder filled with a bazillion springs that each shoot a bolt once. It just feasible enough that a mad tinker could pull it off, but only because they're immune to logic.

You do realize that it's a real weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow), right? They've been found in China dating back to the 4th century BC. It only requires that the operator continue to pump a lever or turn a crank.

As for the OP's question, it operates by gravity feed; there should be no reason why you can't enlarge and still have it work. The only limits will be the bulk of the crossbow and any obstruction of your aim. You can put sights on the side, though; see for example the Bren light machinegun.

Glyde
2009-09-14, 10:12 AM
You mean the cocking lever?

*quiet snickering*



I'd retool it so a repeating crossbow gives you one additional attack at your full bonus - almost like a flurry of blows type deal.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-14, 10:32 AM
You can do this with a crossbow in real life by having a magazine above the crossbow feed downwards into it through gravity.


You do realize that it's a real weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow), right? They've been found in China dating back to the 4th century BC. It only requires that the operator continue to pump a lever or turn a crank.

As for the OP's question, it operates by gravity feed; there should be no reason why you can't enlarge and still have it work. The only limits will be the bulk of the crossbow and any obstruction of your aim. You can put sights on the side, though; see for example the Bren light machinegun.

It has been said!

Wafflecart
2009-09-14, 08:48 PM
No, loading the bolt isn't a free action. Drawing a bolt (out of a quiver, or whatever) is a free action, but inserting it into the crossbow and pulling back the string-drawing (dang censor filter!) lever is normally a move action.

The quick loading enhancement (+1 weapon enhancement cost, from MIC) retrieves the next bolt and inserts it into place automatically. For a light crossbow the rest of the operation is a free action, but you still need both hands.

The self-loading enhancement (+10,000 gp cost, from Arms and Equipment Guide) does the job of pulling back the string. If your crossbow has both these enhancements you've got yourself a semi-automatic weapon.

I can't find the self-loading enhancement anywhere in Arms and Equipment Guide, would you happen to know the page number?

taltamir
2009-09-14, 09:08 PM
I don't see how this can be EFFECTIVE without houseruling...
A longbow gets more attacks per round as your BAB improves, but a crossbow does not... not even if magiced up the wazoo as described it.

DnD authors hate crossbows and have ridiculously overpowered bows.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-14, 09:34 PM
I don't see how this can be EFFECTIVE without houseruling...
A longbow gets more attacks per round as your BAB improves, but a crossbow does not... not even if magiced up the wazoo as described it.It does if you get loading down to a free action, like in any of these builds. It's more expensive than a longbow, but not majorly.
DnD authors hate crossbows and have ridiculously overpowered bows.No, they really don't. Melee is far, far, better than archery. There are basically 3 good archer builds, and 2 of those are in essence "become as much like an arrow demon as possible".

taltamir
2009-09-14, 09:37 PM
melee is better, if you just stand there on an open field letting them hack you while you shoot them... But get the higher ground (to which they cannot climb)?

IRL shooting a bow takes strength, lots of it. You are extremely limited by arrow carry capacity (it is VERY low), aiming beyond 20 ft is extremely hard. (in game their range INCREMENT is 110 ft... that is, for ever 110 ft you take a small penalty to attack)

but yea, the ONLY effective archer in the RAW is the arcane archer... the reason bows are very weak is because their DAMAGE doesn't stack, but mechanics of range and hitting chances are way overpowered.

Everyone is godmodding anyways though, giving ridiculous damage and soaking up ridiculous amounts of it too.

lsfreak
2009-09-14, 09:47 PM
melee is better, if you just stand there on an open field letting them hack you while you shoot them... But get the higher ground (to which they cannot climb)?
A level 3 spell called fly would like to have a word with you. As would wind wall. As would fog cloud. Before that, yes, but after that... no.


but yea, the ONLY effective archer in the RAW is the arcane archer... the reason bows are very weak is because their DAMAGE doesn't stack, but mechanics of range and hitting chances are way overpowered.
Er, what? Arcane Archer? (Also, I think you mean SRD/core, not RAW). Archers also do less damage than melee, especially in core, without any advantage is hit chance (in fact, disadvantage, because you can't flank and you can't get brilliant energy weapons). Once you throw in swift hunter, travel devotion, and splitting, they can finally start competing with sneak attack and charging.

Also, mechanics of range, as you called it, doesn't help at all when you can't spot anything. Spot checks take a -1 penalty for every 10 feet of range.

Mastikator
2009-09-14, 09:53 PM
Invent one.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-14, 09:54 PM
melee is better, if you just stand there on an open field letting them hack you while you shoot them... But get the higher ground (to which they cannot climb)?Fly spells. They appear at level 6, and are common by 10. Plus, anything you can do, the meleer can do as well.
IRL shooting a bow takes strength, lots of it.Composite Longbows represent this, and in D&D most PC archery comes with a Str bonus, or a penalty to damage if you don't have one.
You are extremely limited by arrow carry capacity (it is VERY low),This is true in D&D.
aiming beyond 20 ft is extremely hard. (in game their range INCREMENT is 110 ft... that is, for ever 110 ft you take a small penalty to attack)They've admitted that's an error, but it's a small one. Pro archers hit 300', and few PCs ever engage past that anyways(and if adventurers aren't pro, no one is).
but yea, the ONLY effective archer in the RAW is the arcane archer... HAHAHA! HA HA HA HA HA!

HA!

The best archer classes are(in order): Archivist, Artificer, Cleric, Scout. Arcane Archer is a massive trap with no benefits beyond level 2.
the reason bows are very weak is because their DAMAGE doesn't stack, but mechanics of range and hitting chances are way overpowered.They're too good, but it's too good in a way that doesn't matter since most encounters occur within 50'. And hitting isn't OP at all since Archery is by default MAD for less of a hit chance than melee.
Everyone is godmodding anyways though, giving ridiculous damage and soaking up ridiculous amounts of it too.Except archery, which is the problem.

arguskos
2009-09-14, 09:55 PM
but yea, the ONLY effective archer in the RAW is the arcane archer... the reason bows are very weak is because their DAMAGE doesn't stack, but mechanics of range and hitting chances are way overpowered.
Arcane Archer is CRAAAAAAAAP. Like, holy hot damn, it's AWFUL. See, it doesn't really do anything to solve the issue that archers can't deal damage. They can hit very well, but that's about it. It's easy to get high attacks, but there's no Power Attack equivalent for ranged attacks, so they run into some major issues dealing damage. You need a combination of Scout (base class), Swift Hunter (feat), Travel Devotion (uh... feat?), and Splitting (weapon quality) and then you'll be doing some decent damage at range and be good enough to deal with the Shock Trooper fighter on his own level.

I've considered building a Justice of Weal and Woe Scout though, that seemed like it might be good.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 10:06 PM
I concede. I had a brain blip and forgot about fly... in my defense. I didn't get much sleep in the past 48 hours. (yesturday, 3 hours, today, 1 hour).

I said mechanics of hitting are way overpowered, damage doesn't stack... This is a "blessed with suck" situation.. Obviously if you hit every time and don't do any damage, than what is the point of actually HITTING? They should do significantly more damage (or rather, increasing damage), while not hitting as often and having shorter range.

When I said extremely limited capacity I meant 3 to 5 arrows. Total. Arrows are much bigger than people think, you can't just cram a bunch of them into a quiver. unless they have no head to speak of, in which case:
1, you damage the feathers by putting too many in quiver.
2. they are only for hunting small game (as in, birds).
Also you can NOT draw from a quiver. You drop all the arrows on the ground, stick them in the ground, then draw from the ground, knock it, shoot it, repeat.

In retrospect, most of my knowledge of arcane archer is from NWN, where playing them has proven a very effective tactic. But that is not true DnD. I hate it, I have so much more NWN experience than actual DnD experience that I keep on mixing up the two with disastrous results.

lsfreak
2009-09-14, 10:13 PM
In retrospect, most of my knowledge of arcane archer is from NWN, where playing them has proven a very effective tactic. But that is not true DnD. I hate it, I have so much more NWN experience than actual DnD experience that I keep on mixing up the two with disastrous results.

Perfectly understandable :p

Also, I really don't get what you're talking about with the "mechanics of hitting" being overpowered. Unless I'm missing something, they don't have any advantages over melee in terms of hitting AC, and actually less chance of hitting thanks to thinks like flanking and discipline weapons. If you can manage to make spot checks from 2+ range increments away, yes you've got a decent advantage (if, that is, your arrows can hit with the range penalty), but it's pretty unlikely. Keep in mind even two range increments away needs you to roll >20 on something with a DC0 to spot it.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-14, 10:15 PM
I can't find the self-loading enhancement anywhere in Arms and Equipment Guide, would you happen to know the page number?
It's on page 116, in a specific weapon. For some reason they forgot to list it as a separate weapon enhancement, but the cost (+10,000 gp) for just the enhancement is entirely obvious.

Wafflecart
2009-09-14, 11:16 PM
Arcane Archer is CRAAAAAAAAP. Like, holy hot damn, it's AWFUL. See, it doesn't really do anything to solve the issue that archers can't deal damage. They can hit very well, but that's about it. It's easy to get high attacks, but there's no Power Attack equivalent for ranged attacks, so they run into some major issues dealing damage. You need a combination of Scout (base class), Swift Hunter (feat), Travel Devotion (uh... feat?), and Splitting (weapon quality) and then you'll be doing some decent damage at range and be good enough to deal with the Shock Trooper fighter on his own level.

I've considered building a Justice of Weal and Woe Scout though, that seemed like it might be good.

I hafta ask, what is the Shock Trooper fighter?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-14, 11:22 PM
I hafta ask, what is the Shock Trooper fighter?Shock Trooper allows you to apply PA's penalty to AC instead of AB on a charge. This is combined with Leap Attack and similar boosters to be dealing 100+ damage at level 6.

Hawriel
2009-09-14, 11:38 PM
Spend skill points in craft wood working, boyer, or smithing. Spend time to make your own magazine that holds more ammo.

OR

Ask around town for a carpenter, boyer, or smith that can make you one.

Problem salved and you didnt have to hunt through endless splat books for some obscure item.

Fizban
2009-09-15, 12:36 AM
You do realize that it's a real weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow), right? They've been found in China dating back to the 4th century BC. It only requires that the operator continue to pump a lever or turn a crank.

As for the OP's question, it operates by gravity feed; there should be no reason why you can't enlarge and still have it work. The only limits will be the bulk of the crossbow and any obstruction of your aim. You can put sights on the side, though; see for example the Bren light machinegun.
Allow me to rephrase. A one handed fully automatic crossbow. A modern machinegun like you'd see in a movie sprays bullets continuously as long as you hold the trigger with one hand, and I really don't think you can pull that off with medieval tech. Pumping a lever or turning a crank is already represented with the stock mundane repeating crossbow.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-15, 12:41 AM
Allow me to rephrase. A one handed fully automatic crossbow. A modern machinegun like you'd see in a movie sprays bullets continuously as long as you hold the trigger with one hand, and I really don't think you can pull that off with medieval tech. Pumping a lever or turning a crank is already represented with the stock mundane repeating crossbow.

Van Hellsing style? Light Crossbow with the quality I mentioned in the first few posts. Reloading is a pain, but 100 shots is more than enough for an encounter or two (if you're really good).

ericgrau
2009-09-15, 01:15 AM
Heavy repeating crossbows are for rare ranged characters that have neither a strength bonus to damage nor bonus damage from sneak attack or the like.

Ranged weapons have tactical uses in that you can full attack from far away and force melee opponents to spend a round or rounds moving in on you while you get free attacks. They can handle around 100 feet-ish before any penalty to attack, but max range is around 1000 feet. A fly spell don't fix that. You can have snipers built around this or you, y'know, take shots the first round(s) then draw a melee weapon. IIRC there's some creature in the monster manual that's described as eager for close combat, but still smart enough to weaken its opponents with ranged weapons before closing in. Implying that intelligent creatures in general do this. Not to mention the many creatures described as liking ambushes. Carrying a backup range weapon is just basic adventurer sense with any DM that doesn't set up encounters as if monsters have the brains of MMO mobs. Weapon enchantments and lots of full AB shots give you all the damage you need.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 01:21 AM
Arcane Archer is CRAAAAAAAAP. Like, holy hot damn, it's AWFUL. See, it doesn't really do anything to solve the issue that archers can't deal damage. They can hit very well, but that's about it. It's easy to get high attacks, but there's no Power Attack equivalent for ranged attacks, so they run into some major issues dealing damage. You need a combination of Scout (base class), Swift Hunter (feat), Travel Devotion (uh... feat?), and Splitting (weapon quality) and then you'll be doing some decent damage at range and be good enough to deal with the Shock Trooper fighter on his own level.

I've considered building a Justice of Weal and Woe Scout though, that seemed like it might be good.

Justice of Weald and Woe, Pious Templar and Cragtop Archer are the only decent archery PrCs in 3.5, and none of them really holds a candle to core classes (though Cragtop Archer has its sides; it just so happens to take a role that's really rarely needed for PCs with those ~10000' snipes).

Arcane Archer has exactly one good ability: Imbue Arrow. Beyond that, the whole class is ****. And Imbue Arrow works on focused casters only since you need good spells to slam on it. Enhance Arrow is basically obsoleted by "Greater Magic Weapon" the spell, the rest of the abilities don't allow full attack and are 1/day anyways and Arrow of Death is a DC 20 Fort-save so it autofails on any creature worth killing.


The only source of really good Archery PrCs is 3.0: Peerless Archer [Silver Marches], Order of the Bow Initiate [Sword & Fist; NOT THE 3.5 **** VERSION], Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild] and Weapon Master [Sword & Fist] are all excellent.

I don't personally like Swift Hunters; while they are solid damage-wise (about 27 points of damage bonus per arrow without trying), they aren't much of Archers since they have to act within 60' reach at best. The only real reason to be an archer IMHO is to shoot at faraway targets.

Jade_Tarem
2009-09-15, 01:24 AM
I'm playing a ranger right now whose mechanics are loosely inspired by the Hugh Jackman Van Helsing. Until very recently, he was using a regular Repeating Heavy Crossbow with the standard five-shot clip. Since he's had 4 attacks a round (Level 11), I have a level of master thrower in the build and coupled his crossbow up with a returning throwing axe. The campaign is primarily undead-based, but between his racial enemy and the axe, it's been decently effective.

The trick was to have him attack in cycles. On turn one he fires three times, quick draws the axe, and throws the axe. On the next turn he fires twice and throws the axe again. On turn three he rapid reloads the clip while moving and throws the axe yet again when he's done. In the party he's working with, this lets him put out decent damage.

Is this optimal? Certainly not! But I haven't had a huge problem with dealing damage - Ranger hate overcomes zombie and skeleton DR, and the heavy crossbow is dealing sufficent enough damage. What's more, the axe throws get to use my STR to damage anyway (and do slashing). And as I've said, I'm getting three to four attacks per round.

It's even better taking in to account the fact that distance == safety in this game - my ranger can stick silver bolts in a vampire from 120 ft. away and do ~40 damage a round while he's at it. With all due respect to conventional optimization, a shock trooper fighter would have bought the farm the first time we were ambushed by Savage Wights or the Draconic Skeleton.

The flavor feels right too - there's just something more badass about reloading clips instead of doing my best to emulate Legolas.

This is not to say that you'll enjoy it as much as I do, or even that you should try this yourself. I'm just pointing out that I'm playing with a HRC that doesn't seem awkward or ineffective.

Zaq
2009-09-15, 02:06 AM
There is a spell in Races of the Dragon called Ghostly Reload. It does just what you might expect: it automatically reloads your crossbow for you once per caster level (up to a max of... ten shots at CL ten, I think). I don't normally recommend custom magic items when you don't really need them, but I don't think that this would be a bad place to start.

Though Quick Loading is still probably better.