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Jalor
2009-09-13, 10:55 PM
I've played in 30+ play-by-post RPGs on this forum and others, in five different systems spanning dozens of various settings. Of all of these games, only two ever made it past the first combat. One lasted three encounters before the DM vanished, and the other was a one-shot adventure in which everyone but me and the DM dissappeared during the first week. He DMPCd everyone else's characters and we finished the game on our own. Every other game has died within three weeks, due to either the DM or all the players quitting without warning. I've seen games where the DM demanded a 500 word background and then dumped us before the first encounter. I've seen games where out of 6 players and 8 alternates, I was the only one to stick around.

Has anyone had a good experience with a PbP game, or any advice for keeping one alive?

Tl;dr: PbP sucks. Anyone disagree?

Mystic Muse
2009-09-13, 10:58 PM
I like PbP although I have no advice for keeping games going.

on a side not what's tl;dr?

Schism
2009-09-13, 10:58 PM
Too long; didn't read.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-13, 11:01 PM
ah okay.

sorry for your bad experiences Jalor.

Godskook
2009-09-13, 11:15 PM
I'm on pbp game #3 right now that's actually gotten off the ground and into the IC. Game #2 is so far my record for longest game played at 14 pages, and hopefully, it doesn't die here, since it still has some decent potential going for it. Game #1, lasted a disappointing 2 pages.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-13, 11:36 PM
Nope. Note that these ones (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=42.0) are only a fraction of the originals, which were devoured when Gleemax "upgraded" a few days ago. Both the Gleemax version and this one have the honor of being the longest threads I've ever started (with the Gleemax's Recruiting thread hitting roughly 50 pages with 50 posts/page, and the BG version getting 72 pages at the rate of 30 posts/page).

Can you really blame it for dying? 6 campaigns set in the same world, with a massive background story and at least 5 or even 8 players per game. Each of those players was using a Gestalt build. It was a massive undertaking, and I bit off more than I could chew. I regret letting it die out, but I draw a lot of inspiration from the failure (and popularity) of that campaign.

My current PbP (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=88.0) has hit 16 pages, and is slowly gaining. Those 16 pages make up all of 2 days and 3 encounters worth of action. I'm going through some lengths to keep this one from dying out entirely.

SurlySeraph
2009-09-13, 11:41 PM
I'm currently in one that's on its fourth encounter (but still on its first day). It's been going for a while.

I've seen a few on these boards that were extremely long-running, like The Necromancer's Pact. I've also seen some, like the first iteration of Total War 2125, that went to a satisfactory conclusion.

I think the most important factors in longevity are that the DM is committed, everyone posts regularly, and the players actually want to play. If the players like the plot, like playing their characters, and like the characters the other players are playing, then it's more likely to hold together.

Jalor
2009-09-13, 11:51 PM
I've tried to ensure good and dedicated players, but I can't control who gets approved when I'm not the DM. I do, however, have a PbP blacklist that takes up a page and a half of single-spaced 12 point Verdana. It's to the point where I'm likely to run invitation-only games and nothing else.

skywalker
2009-09-13, 11:56 PM
I've tried to ensure good and dedicated players, but I can't control who gets approved when I'm not the DM. I do, however, have a PbP blacklist that takes up a page and a half of single-spaced 12 point Verdana. It's to the point where I'm likely to run invitation-only games and nothing else.

Damn man... That's pretty intense...

*hopes he's not on any blacklists...*

Mystic Muse
2009-09-13, 11:57 PM
I hope I'm not one one of your blacklists

I only have one name on mine but it's an IRL name so I won't mention it here.

The Glyphstone
2009-09-14, 12:01 AM
I've only ever finished one - it was a short one-shot adventure. If I remember right, it was level 4 or 5 Gestalt, and all four players were siblings of a powerful adventurer couple and needed a suitable anniversary present, so we went and raided some evil wizard's tower for a magical artifact of some sort. I played a Fighter/Cleric of Kord, and actually Bull Rushed someone...and it was before Dungeonscape came out, so no Dungeoncrasher. I'd never even heard of optimization back then, but it was still loads of fun.

Keld Denar
2009-09-14, 12:12 AM
Blacklists are fine, as long as you don't publish them anywhere. That makes Mr St Jude mad (cause its against Teh Rulez (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)). Same with white lists, btw.

That said, after having gotten into my first couple games, many of the rest of the games I've been in have either been either games I've been refered to, or games I've refered a few other plays that I can vouch for.

As far as those games go, I've been pretty lucky. I've only had 3 die out, and to be honest, I was not expecting one to last. Some update less often, and some more. I think the longest have been through a dozen encounters at least, and one has involved a level up and another will if we survive the current encounter (really touch encounter!). I'm in about 10 active games right now and apping into 3 more, 2 of which I've pretty much already been approved for.

I guess my advice is to get to know people. Even if a game dies, you can generally get a good feel for others. Talk to the people who were active and see what games they are joining or running and get in. Be active. Just like in real life, networking is key. You could be the best roleplayer/character builder/combat tactician, but you could run a gambit of bad luck and never get accepted. A lot of it is in presentation and who you know.

Skorj
2009-09-14, 12:14 AM
I'm going to do my best to see that my new PbP game doesn't die! I've never quite understood why someone would do the work to make a build and join a game, and then drop almost at once.

EDIT:

I guess my advice is to get to know people. Even if a game dies, you can generally get a good feel for others. Talk to the people who were active and see what games they are joining or running and get in. Be active. Just like in real life, networking is key. You could be the best roleplayer/character builder/combat tactician, but you could run a gambit of bad luck and never get accepted. A lot of it is in presentation and who you know.

I just realized that this is the exact same advice that works for getting a good PUG and then guild in an MMO. I guess that's not surprising really.

Resident Fool
2009-09-14, 12:17 AM
I've only ever actually participated in one play by post game before, and... well, it wasn't pretty.

The first encounter was one of those things that is "impossible to defeat". You know, no matter what you do to it it does nothing. Cast a spell with an obscene will save and it makes it. Hits you every time, but you can't even it it once. Anyway, this guy (Some kind of expert fighter or something?) grabbed my bard and teleported away. I didn't even get an opposed grapple check, or a save against the teleport. I was just gone.

This DM proceeded to describe, in excruciating detail, how this guy repeatedly raped my character. I don't know why I was still playing at this point, but I tried a few things to escape. Picking the locks, escape artist (I was playing a very rogue-like bard, as far as skills go), the works. Every time it was always just "No, it doesn't work."


I finally got pissed and left the game. That was about two months ago, and I'm just now looking into play-by-post again. These forums here look pretty good though, so I think that shouldn't happen? D:!

Lycan 01
2009-09-14, 12:18 AM
I was in one for several months, before my character died due to a bad roll involving a grenade. :smalleek:


I hosted a freeform game on another forum for almost a year, but then my computer died right when they were about to get to the BBEG. :smallannoyed:


Most pbp games I've joined, though, didn't work out too well. I had to quit two of them for various reasons, although the DM dissappeared on the 2nd one around the time I dropped out. I've Kept two Call of Cthulhu games on here. One of them had most of the players drop out (a few had good reasons, but the rest just stopped posting... :smallannoyed:) and the 2nd one I had to shut down because I was going to be without internet for a few months.


I think that in theory, pbp works great. But there are a lot of variables that can pop up and screw things over. Then again, don't RL groups have the same sort of problems? :smalltongue:

Jokes
2009-09-14, 12:19 AM
We managed to finish Sellswords of Punjar a few weeks back. After we got down to just 3 people (from 7) it started to pick up the pace.

Sometimes I think DMs start PbP games to get ideas for their own IRL characters...

Mystic Muse
2009-09-14, 12:21 AM
I finally got pissed and left the game. That was about two months ago, and I'm just now looking into play-by-post again. These forums here look pretty good though, so I think that shouldn't happen? D:!

if that happened in a game here there'ed be about twenty reports and they'd have the wrath of the mods called down upon them. That does not work within forum rules.

king.com
2009-09-14, 12:23 AM
I've only ever actually participated in one play by post game before, and... well, it wasn't pretty.

The first encounter was one of those things that is "impossible to defeat". You know, no matter what you do to it it does nothing. Cast a spell with an obscene will save and it makes it. Hits you every time, but you can't even it it once. Anyway, this guy (Some kind of expert fighter or something?) grabbed my bard and teleported away. I didn't even get an opposed grapple check, or a save against the teleport. I was just gone.

This DM proceeded to describe, in excruciating detail, how this guy repeatedly raped my character. I don't know why I was still playing at this point, but I tried a few things to escape. Picking the locks, escape artist (I was playing a very rogue-like bard, as far as skills go), the works. Every time it was always just "No, it doesn't work."

I finally got pissed and left the game. That was about two months ago, and I'm just now looking into play-by-post again. These forums here look pretty good though, so I think that shouldn't happen? D:!

WOW, thats fairly extreme (and possibly one of the more disturbed DMs going around). I mean, having certain "unkillable" characters can be alright but to have them completely screw with a PC like that :smalleek:

I personnally have little choice over whether i want to PbP or not. Cant seem to find and DnD groups in my area :smallfrown:

Catch
2009-09-14, 12:24 AM
So many unfinished games, or unstarted ones. I don't keep track (or grudges for that matter), because the most fun I have in PbP is planning and building. Rolling and posting is fun and all, but I try not to get hung up about it.

Plus, I play with the same rogue's gallery of people, so when a game dies we shrug and move on to whatever's next. I'm proud, at least, of one game I'm in that's lasted two years and all but one player quitting and coming back.

And I'll keep it going if I have to throttle each and every one of them... *ahem* :smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2009-09-14, 12:27 AM
I've also noticed that smaller groups tend to work better. I have a game with 4, and we easily made it through 4 encounters faster than another game got through one. Of course, its harder to get into smaller games since statistically speaking, they accept fewer applications.

Toliudar
2009-09-14, 12:28 AM
I've been lucky enough to have four campaigns reach a suitable stopping place, here on PBP. Mind you, one was an "orc and pie" game, but the other three were actual storylines. One has been running for three years now, and we're just in the midst of the climactic boss fight.

It really does come down to having a DM who cares enough to keep it moving, and to react intelligently when it starts to stumble. Not everyone can do it - I've failed myself in that, more than once.

It's important that the story be flexible enough to deal with inevitable player dropout. My current theory is to start with 4-5 players - not so few that one dropout stalls the conversation, and not so many that if there are only three active posters it seems preposterous.

Catch
2009-09-14, 12:32 AM
I've also noticed that smaller groups tend to work better. I have a game with 4, and we easily made it through 4 encounters faster than another game got through one. Of course, its harder to get into smaller games since statistically speaking, they accept fewer applications.

It's easier among friends, especially those who you either know outside the internet or through an IM service.

Case and point, my longest running (still) game was three, now four players and a GM. One's a best friend of mine and the others I talk to on AIM with relative degrees of frequency. Like most social events, communication is the key to a successful game.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 12:34 AM
it is practically impossible to play by post... you are missing out on the whole experience, and things move way to slow.

Now, playing by live chat? I think it can work. Bonus if it has audio or video chat.

Last 4 weeks I have been playing with a new group... we played from 3pm to midnight the first two session, second two dragged on to 3 and 4 am respectively.

And we were much quicker about things too... you just cannot condense this much content into the slow taking turns of PbP...

I have never successfully joined a PbP game, I tried multiple times, it always collapsed before the game started (or shortly after, but before first combat). I made characters, the DM made an adventure, players were signed up, and nothing came out of it.

Resident Fool
2009-09-14, 12:34 AM
if that happened in a game here there'ed be about twenty reports and they'd have the wrath of the mods called down upon them. That does not work within forum rules.

Okay, whew. I was looking through the rules and threads real quick-like before signing up and things seemed to be pretty cool here.

king.com: Yeah, it was messed up D: I mean, I've played DnD at gaming stores loads of times, never had anything nearly so bad. So I figured that it had to be an exception, rather than the rule. I don't really have a choice if I want to do DnD either though, since I moved to a smaller town without much in the way of gaming stores or people to play with. D:

Mystic Muse
2009-09-14, 12:36 AM
it is practically impossible to play by post... you are missing out on the whole experience, and things move way to slow.

Now, playing by live chat? I think it can work. Bonus if it has audio or video chat.

clearly you've had bad experiences, haven't played Play by post or don't have the patience.

that or maybe I like pbp because I can say cheesy lines and the players dont' have to see my face. :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-09-14, 12:39 AM
clearly you've had bad experiences, haven't played Play by post or don't have the patience.

that or maybe I like pbp because I can say cheesy lines and the players dont' have to see my face. :smalltongue:

oh, nothing as cheesy as not seeing each other. The experience is dynamic human interaction, every group I was ever in was full of hilarious moments, tough moments, etc. There was tons of human interaction. PbP doesn't give you that.

As for patience, I have tons of patience, but I am trying to be realistic here. It is like comparing broadband to dialup. Dialup is just inferior, and it has nothing to do with me "lacking patience".

Also, see my recent edit to previous post

FerhagoRosewood
2009-09-14, 12:47 AM
Usually the games I've played don't make it past the first encounter. Heck, some don't even make it to there.

The longest game I had was on Myth-Weavers and had a good set up. It lasted 1 chapter, but unfortunately the DM had computer issues... Then just disappeared completely after returning to post that she was returning. If the game starts up again I'll go back to playing though, as I liked the DM & her storytelling.

I'd like a PBP game to last but it just doesn't apparently for me. In fact it's caused me to give up on them for the time being; which sucks considering I've become basically the main DM in my real life group's meetings.

T.T

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-14, 01:00 AM
My currently longest running PbP is.. 2 years running now? I've had plenty of other aborted games, outright failures and not a single finished game.


oh, nothing as cheesy as not seeing each other. The experience is dynamic human interaction, every group I was ever in was full of hilarious moments, tough moments, etc. There was tons of human interaction. PbP doesn't give you that.

Gotta agree there. The best experience for internet roleplaying is chat based via IRC, AIM, Maptool, etc.

Why? Simply because you never have a post saying: "Guys, we need to have a break. That last bit of dialogue caused me to spew Dew all over my screen."

Jade_Tarem
2009-09-14, 01:11 AM
The majority of PbP games tank because the DM gets the group through the first encounter or the opening sequence, and realizes that even in PbP, DMing still requires a little bit of effort.

A close second is that the players lose interest, and then the game atrophies into nonexistance.

I've had DMs walk out on several games. I've had players simultaneously abandon one that I was running for no reason that I can discern.

I'm DMing one game that's been going quite a while. I've had two players drop, but the character that they were playing have been taken over by new players. This group is on it's third "in game" day, although the game has taken more than an RL year.

I'm DMing another game that's been going since this summer, also (interestingly enough) on its third day in-game. This is a sandbox game that started with a huge group. Four players are left - they seem pretty solid, though, and as long as they're willing to play, I'll DM.

I'm playing in one game that's been going just over a year, and is on it's fourth (and best) DM. The group of players is fantastic (ok, we're down to four from the original six, but still...), and we've stuck together through being dropped by a DM three times, recruiting a new DM each time. The game is semi-rapidly approaching the 1000th post, and I actually feel a bit more "attached" to that character than any I've ever played.

Beyond that, I've been in only three games that went beyond the first encounter, and only one of those has lasted longer than two months - it's still going.

tl;dr: Yeah, keeping PbP alive is trickly - what you really need are players who really want to play their characters and have a vested interest in the story. There's no magic formula to produce that - you just need quality players, a great DM, and a bit of luck to ensure no RL interference trashes the game.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 01:15 AM
My currently longest running PbP is.. 2 years running now? I've had plenty of other aborted games, outright failures and not a single finished game.



Gotta agree there. The best experience for internet roleplaying is chat based via IRC, AIM, Maptool, etc.

Why? Simply because you never have a post saying: "Guys, we need to have a break. That last bit of dialogue caused me to spew Dew all over my screen."

or get to personally SEE said dew spewing... Just an FYI, in my current group most of us sit on a horseshoe shaped table, with a laptop in front... electronic character sheets, text messaging private info with DM, etc...

taltamir
2009-09-14, 01:18 AM
I've had players simultaneously abandon one that I was running for no reason that I can discern.

I'm DMing one game that's been going quite a while. I've had two players drop, but the character that they were playing have been taken over by new players. This group is on it's third "in game" day, although the game has taken more than an RL year.

Really? you really don't see the relationship between the two? it has nothing to do with patience. Life happens. You lose a job, move, need to devote more time to a business or school, get married, change interests, have a child (that needs your time), etc etc etc...
Also there is a good chance those players went and found a REAL game to join and realized that they got more done in a single session than the PbP game got in a real life year.

BloodyAngel
2009-09-14, 01:19 AM
Not all pbp is doomed to failure... but it takes a special kind of game. I'm in a game on these very forums that has gone for over 2 years now, and survived about a 4 or 5 month lull and a change in DM's. The group refuses to let it die. It's been a real blast to be a part of, too...

It does take a long time to get anywhere, though... that I will NEVER argue.

Jade_Tarem
2009-09-14, 01:23 AM
Really? you really don't see the relationship between the two? it has nothing to do with patience. Life happens. You lose a job, move, need to devote more time to a business or school, get married, change interests, have a child (that needs your time), etc etc etc...
Also there is a good chance those players went and found a REAL game to join and realized that they got more done in a single session than the PbP game got in a real life year.

Goodness, I'm not that thick. We're talking about two different games, here.

In this case, there is no relationship between the two. They all dropped simultaneously after maybe a week in RL. Nothing bad happened to their characters. I didn't DM any different than I normally do in games that have gone on a long time. The year-long game is the one that still has most of its players.

Also, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that last bit. PbP is the same game over a different medium, and frankly I'm not sure I appreciate the implication that the game I'm running is somehow phony or inferior. Honestly, I have more fun in PbP than I do in "real" games, and I know people who have expressed the same sentiment. Yeah, it's a lot slower, but you can get a great deal more RP and detail into it. That's really the allure right there.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-14, 01:24 AM
my current group has made it to post 200/ page 8. judging by other posts in this Thread either one of three things.
A. I'm a pretty good DM
B. they like the story a lot.
c. I have very good players.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 01:25 AM
Not all pbp is doomed to failure... but it takes a special kind of game. I'm in a game on these very forums that has gone for over 2 years now, and survived about a 4 or 5 month lull and a change in DM's. The group refuses to let it die. It's been a real blast to be a part of, too...

It does take a long time to get anywhere, though... that I will NEVER argue.

If the DM leaves and 4-5 months later another picks up the mantle (and who knows how many players left), than as far as I am concerned it has died.

Roc Ness
2009-09-14, 01:39 AM
I don't really mind a pbp game not finishing, as long as the dm lets us know why. For example, the first and only character that got accepted into a pbp that died before the first combat finished, but I know why, so there are no hard feelings.

BooNL
2009-09-14, 02:01 AM
Too many games I have been in died. I think one of the most important reasons most games die after the first encounter is player/dm synergy. Most games here are played with guys we have never played before and don't know at all. After the first couple of posts, you get a feel of the other player's posting habits and gaming style.

I've dropped out of a couple of games as well when I didn't like the way other players presented their characters. You can tell almost immediately if you're going to like playing in a game or not. If you don't like it, don't stick around. At least tell the others the reason why you're leaving though.

The best and maybe the longest game I've been in was a SWSE game, spanning a couple of months. I dissapeared for a while due to RL reasons. When I came back, the DM killed my character in the most perfect way possible. I was actually working to that point and I'm glad he finished the way my character was meant to end.
We traded a couple of PM's at that point and he offered me another place in his game. Too bad it was already slowly dying at that point. He ended the game just before I was able to join.

I'm currently setting up a new game here, but I'm going to work purely on invites. I think that's the best way to ensure a healty game. Find a couple of people you're comfortable playing with and form your own little gaming circle. At one point, the DM of that game mentioned and I were in 4 different games together.

Jayngfet
2009-09-14, 02:28 AM
Only PBP, you people are lucky. I've tried IRL, PBP, and chat and never finished four sessions. Either real lhfe gets in the way or too many lose intrest. I remember once having a session stop early RIGHT as we were beginning the last battle.

Now I generally PBP with people I can contact on AIM and ask to pick up the pace, or else know RP and post regularly.

Amiria
2009-09-14, 02:29 AM
I have played in maybe close to 30 PbP games here and almost all of them died quite quickly. I'm in only 3 active games now, two here and one that moved from here to Myth-Weavers and that game is the longest running game I'm in (started 01-01-2007).

Games can die fast or by slowing down to a crawl and withering away. Most of my 3 active games are running very slow now; much slower than they started (1+ posts to day, now rarely more than 2 posts a week).

So no, I never finished a PbP game, maybe if I played in a short one-shot adventure.

The_Snark
2009-09-14, 03:20 AM
Really? you really don't see the relationship between the two? it has nothing to do with patience. Life happens. You lose a job, move, need to devote more time to a business or school, get married, change interests, have a child (that needs your time), etc etc etc...

This is more of a problem with real-life games, I assure you. I'm not currently in any real-life games. This is not because I don't know any people; I know several. We've all played in a group together, and it was fun. However, all of us have jobs, college classes, or both, and it's very hard to schedule a time each week when we can all meet.

Whereas you can take 20 minutes each night to post in a single play-by-post game, and you'd be considered a frequent poster; if you're involved in the game, you might spend longer, but you don't have to. More importantly, you can spend this time whenever you like, as opposed to having to set aside a period of several hours of free time. When someone is too busy to continue a play-by-post game, it's not usually that they don't physically have the time to post—it's just that they wouldn't enjoy spending the little leisure time they have posting in the game. (Which is fair—a hobby that feels like a chore is no good.)

I will agree that it's a different feeling than playing with people around a table; I don't agree that it's inferior. There's not as much table chatter and social interaction, but it has its advantages if you enjoy writing.

As for the original question... I don't know that I've been in a game that's finished, exactly, unless you count a short module or two. But I'm in a couple that have lifespans measured in years; one of those is a sandbox that probably won't have any real ending, and the other one is midway through the second part of three planned installments. And a lot of the games that died were pretty memorable, and since I enjoyed them while they lasted, I figure it's a net gain.

KIDS
2009-09-14, 03:44 AM
I have plenty of long-running pbp games, some that have been around for over 4 years now. I agree with you that they're rare, but it depends on the people you run into and the enviroment too. All I can offer is to keep looking, and keep the game moving. Also, while OOTS forums can be great, I don't think their "ease-of-use" lends itself well to most pbp games.

p.s. and yes, unless someone has been injured or killed or something, vanishing from games without a trace is the most infuriating thing that can happen.

Quietus
2009-09-14, 04:02 AM
Never finished a PbP game, but I've never finished a face-to-face game, either. I once tried to run an entire PbP forum, complete with a couple dozen players, many of whom had multiple (2, 3, or sometimes many more) characters... and yes, that ended up dying, because I tried to bite off WAY more than I could chew. The latter part of that likely has a lot to do with us not playing games that have a definite ending... we just play the next "episode" so to speak.

I've got a number of ideas that flit in and out of my head, however... and I've toyed with the idea of bringing them to PbP. This thread has even brought another idea to mind; Instead of giving players a list of what is and isn't available, and having everyone make character sheets, then selecting X number of people from that, I could create an entire in-character recruitment thread. Give the gist of books I'd allow (completes, phb2, core, other material by request, no ToB/Psionics/Settings), give information relating to the world that every character should know, then describe the setting.

The woods are dark this night, the moon's rays held at bay by the thick canopy of leaves above your head. The entire tribe has gathered, and several small cooking fires provide light for those present to mingle by. The tone is generally pleasant, but there is an undertone of concern, as everyone knows Chief Tarmulek doesn't call these gatherings without reason..

And then let interested recruits drop characters into the "game". Don't worry about stats - this is to see who will post often enough to be worth keeping around. From this, you take your collection of 3-4 accepted characters, in the form of the Chief selecting them personally for whatever mission he has planned, with several backups as well. Not sure if it'd work, but it'd certainly be an interesting idea, I think.

kamikasei
2009-09-14, 04:03 AM
Consulting the post where I track games I've played in... and I know there were others before I started doing so, which all died more or less ignominously... I see ten dead, two recently started, and two long-running (well, one of the long-running isn't that much older than one of the recently started, but has a much higher rate of posting). What's the difference? Well, the long-running ones were started by and mostly staffed by people I knew already from the forums, and who chat on AIM. When people don't post the DM is able to push on the action and when they can't post they can ask other players to take over their character temporarily. I'm optimistic about the more recent games for similar reasons - in one I know the DM from around the forum, in the other several of the players seem to know one another from other games.

The dead games? I'd guess probably about half-and-half DM Existence Failure and Player Evaporation. When people just up and vanish with no apology or explanation, it's a pain and the only way around it is to know the people you're getting in to a game with beforehand, which can be awkward (and makes it hard on new players, though there are the whole rest of the forums available to establish yourself). I'd say the biggest problem that kills PbP and can actually be acted on is the Awkward Pause, though. At a table, when no one has anything to say right away, it becomes obvious after a few seconds and the DM can say "so...". In a PbP everyone can sit around for days thinking that someone else is about to speak. So, I think the most important things to do with PbP are a) keep the number of players low, so that such deadlocks are less likely, b) keep the pace going, even if you have to assume an action (and give people the chance to retcon if necessary), and c) streamline combat, and especially initiative or its equivalent so that people can post when they have something to say without having to wait their turn.

It also helps if the game can accomodate hijinks. Sometimes the DM just can't post and it's great for the players to entertain one another during such lulls.


This is more of a problem with real-life games, I assure you. I'm not currently in any real-life games. This is not because I don't know any people; I know several. We've all played in a group together, and it was fun. However, all of us have jobs, college classes, or both, and it's very hard to schedule a time each week when we can all meet.

Very much agreed.

PId6
2009-09-14, 04:43 AM
I'm in a good number of PbP games right now, and most of them are going fairly slowly, but still going. I've been in even more games which just flat out died after a short time. Most of those are because of either DM neglect/disappearance, players vanishing, or a combination of the two. Sometimes there's an explanation (losing internet access, life getting busy, etc), but most of the time there isn't one at all. Sometimes the games seem doomed from the start (excruciatingly slow start and each post appearing to just prolong the end), and some start out very well but come to an abrupt stop (DM vanishing) or slow to a stop over time.

Currently, I'm wondering if a little more accountability and more communications can make games more likely to last. Perhaps introducing chat-based meetings, especially for combat, can help a game survive longer. You'd get some of the best aspects of PbP and face-to-face (fast combat, still good writing during roleplaying aspects), though scheduling can be a big issue with this plan.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-14, 04:45 AM
I've had 1 PbP game die here, and I'm currently in two others; one's just starting and the other's two days in, and going pretty well.

I'm also playing two games with a bunch of friends on a board that is completely unrelated to D&D; one of the guys asked if anyone was interested in making a game, people were interested, and we started playing. One of those is on its second day (but the first was rather busy), and the other we just woke up after the first day (even though the game has been much shorter, in terms of IRL time and in terms of action). Those two I expect to go for quite a while, just because it's a small board and the guys we're playing with post pretty much daily there anyway, so it's not hard.

Weimann
2009-09-14, 05:40 AM
I've only just begun, but I'm currently in two pbp games, and they are both on their 3rd page right now. Since they are my two first, I can't say I have any experience, but I like both of them and hope they will last for some time yet.

One thing I really think is important, so far, is DM activity. Since the DM is required to give input on almost every action, it really sets the pace of the game.

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-14, 06:04 AM
I've been in loads of games that have died very early on, either through player or DM non-action or DM leaving (I shamefully have been a fallen DM once). However I'm in two games at the moment that have been unmitigated successes.

The first is one that Jade_Tarem mentioned earlier, which has survived three fallen DM's, two player losses, and I personally have survived two long absenses due to personal issues (when I came back and the game was still running I wasfar happier than I should have been :smallbiggrin:).

The second is reaching 8 months and we only just finished our third encounter (and just got our first real loot). PbP will go much slower thaqn RL gaming, but if you accept that everything will be dandy.

So no, if you find a good group of people then PbP does not suck. Although one peice of advice is don't let the recruitment phase drag on. I've had at least one game fail that way.

[/rambling nonsense]

Starbuck_II
2009-09-14, 06:21 AM
I've been in three I think.
One died out. No one posted in a while (plus I had a non-effective character)

Another is here and still going, but currently unarmed. But we dominated a Barbaian foe so that helps.

Another one I am in is bad situation: everyones low on health (well, except my Cleric and his cohort, and the Wizard too) and still 6 enemies or so.

Oslecamo
2009-09-14, 07:08 AM
Well, no, I never finished a PbP campaign, but finishing any D&D game is hard, since it demands regular commitment from several people.

PbP can work, but you need to make things in a diferent way than RL, like speeding up iniative and assuming that those who don't post are left behind in the action whitout waiting too much.

I'll admit that I'm myself guilt of abandoning some campaigns due to personal matters, others died because indeed the DM, the players or both vanished.

Right now I'm DMing a somewhat sucessfull campaign that it's around 340 posts in the IC thread and 480 on the OC thread. Party of 6, but one of them has been missing. So he stands around the battlefield while the rest of the party trades blows with the monsters.

Luckily the remaining five players are quite active, but there was a tough filtering process. Most of them I knew beforehand they should be active and I gave priority to them on the recruitment process(kudos to Keld Denar who plays the wizard and Starbuck II who has the cleric). There was a downtime during July wich I feared would kill the campaign as I stoped GMing for my studies, but luckily all the players ended reporting back, showing everybody's commitment.

Ironically, this campaign is a revival of a campaign I had run in the other year and ended up dying. One of the players came back asking me to see if I would make it run again and, well, it seems to actually be going in a fairly good rythm so far, and I have honest hopes I may actually use the boss stats I have prepared for a change.

Also applying for 2 more games, dunno if I'll make the cut or no.

KIDS
2009-09-14, 07:18 AM
Btw just forgot to note that in my post, a game doesn't have to run for years to be finished. Having wrapped up the main questline (or part of it) and everyone having had fun with it is enough. For instance, an epic world domination game would take a decade to complete, but it should still deserve to be called "finished".

An adventure I've GMed and finished took a bit more than 2 years of moderate posting. Another crashed after a year, when players and replacements vanished without a trace.

Another_Poet
2009-09-14, 09:04 AM
I have had (and am in the middle of) several good PbP experiences.

*A Ravenloft campaign that lasted over a year

*A Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign that has lasted a year and a half, and is still going - Moathouse nearly cleared out!

*An undead/horror campaign in which the players have banded together and recruited a new DM three times upon the disappearance of the previous DM - still going strong!

*A solo campaign I DM for a very plucky princess

*An evil campaign I DM on Mythweavers which has been through 3 combats and is deep into the first "dungeon" - daily posts from most players for 4 months now

I think that is it. But for each of those success stories I can list probably 2-4 that died during either recruiting, character meetup or first combat. Sucks.

It is my personal opinion that far too much slack is given to the DMs and players who suddenly bail on games. Especially those who disappear with no explanation, but even those who post an explanation and abruptly end a fledgling game. Seriously people, I don't care if you have the flu / finals / new boyfriend / a really big paper to do. Plan ahead and figure out how much time you can realistically commit BEFORE you get 6 people really excited about something they think will be fun.

Note, I understand there are good reasons why someone needs to quit PbP, either as player or DM; what I'm saying is that the shoddy excuses outnumber them significantly.

ap

Akal Saris
2009-09-14, 10:53 AM
I've probably played in 30-40+ PBP games - currently I'm in 7, 2 of which I started a few weeks ago. I think of the 30ish games that died, 2 of them were because we beat the module or adventure, and the rest were from either the DM disappearing or the game slowing down too much.

I was very lucky with my first PBP games though - of the 4 games I joined to start off, 3 were very long-running (1 is still running 2.5 years later, in fact), and 1 game introduced me to a set of players who I've gamed with repeatedly over the past 2 years.

Endings don't always have to be terrible, either - 2 of my favorite games ended when the DM admitted that he was tired of the campaign, and we wrapped things up and figured out a new DM and continued with the same set of PCs.

I finished the only PBP game that I've run the same way - we had a PC who was expecting a baby in a few weeks, and another who was going to be transferred to a new area, and I was about to move back to the States - so we all agreed to finish the game on a positive note and get back to our real lives.

One of the things that I really enjoy about PBP games is that I can write long, detailed descriptions of my character's thoughts and actions, and actually RP in a lot of character backstory. I can also play a child or a female character without the game dissolving into a lot of dirty jokes every few minutes, which is a relief as well. I also am pretty much the permanent DM in my group, so PBP is my only chance to be a PC in a game with a decent DM - which both helps me get a feel for the kinds of things that PCs enjoy, and also to learn different styles of DMing and the like.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-14, 10:59 AM
Has anyone had a good experience with a PbP game, or any advice for keeping one alive?

Tl;dr: PbP sucks. Anyone disagree?

I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one around here who doesn't love PbP. Over the course of a decade, I have never had a good experience with PbP. I've never even seen anyone else finish a campaign of PbP to the intended conclusion. Invariably, every PbP game I've participated in, observed, or heard about has ended badly.

As for advice for keeping one alive? Screen your players more carefully (PbP tends to bring out lots of people who sign up for everything), ask for dedication, then the moment the game begins switch to instant chat and never look back.

Kiero
2009-09-14, 11:44 AM
I've got a 50% success rate of PbP games reaching a conclusion. Of course it helps that they tend to be one-shots in the first place, rather than an attempt to have some kind of ongoing, never-ending game.

Tengu_temp
2009-09-14, 12:02 PM
Has anyone had a good experience with a PbP game, or any advice for keeping one alive?

Tl;dr: PbP sucks. Anyone disagree?

Play with people you know, and who are passionate about the game you're going to run. Generic DND Campaign With No Specific Premise #162 played with random people you never talked with before will die. It is also important to play with people who have decent pace - nothing kills a PbP game faster than people posting very slowly.

My good experiences with PbP vastly outnumber the bad ones. I am currently playing in one active game (and one that's on temporary hiatus) and DMing two others, one of which is up for around a year now and close to the conclusion of the first story. All of these games have specific settings with their own unique gimmicks - far from generic - and I personally know and communicate with most of the players on a daily basis.

Mystral
2009-09-14, 12:11 PM
I'm lucky enough to be in a _very_ long running PBP.

It's running for nearly 5 years, I joined 3 years ago and am still the newest member of the game. It has over 16.000 posts and is still going strong. And it's not even the biggest game I know. That one has nearly 38.000 posts and is running for only 3 years.

I think you need to have 3 things to have a good pbp game:

1.: Commited players. There's no recipe for getting those, but when you try to know each other, become friends, it becomes way harder for your fellow players to quit. This, of course, includes the DM. Many games peter out because the DM just vanishes, never to be seen again, or slows his posting frequency down very much.

2.: Be up front with the goals of your campaign. Tell everyone what you are planning to do, what theme the campaign will have be, and, most importantly, what the rules will be. Set a minimum of posts you want to see (everything from 2 posts a day to 1 post a week is fine, depending on your preferences). If someone doesn't follow those rules, find someone else to play. Keep the show moving, circulate the lazy players out and eager players in until you get a party of commited players.


3.: RAILS!

Seriously. Having to much freedom of choice brings every game to a grinding halt, but this becomes really apparent in pbp. If there is a point at a tabletop game when the players have to stop the action and decide what to do next, they talk about it, let's say, for half an hour. That's all fine, but remember: pbp is slow. Such a discussion could take days, if not weeks, weeks in which nothing interesting happens. Players tend to wander away at times like these.

I'm not saying you should completly railroad your players, but give them a clearly visible to accomplish, with a rather obvious overall solution. For example, my game is called "troubles in gondareth" (Don't google, it's in German). We spent our first 4 years on a roadtrip to Gondareth, a rather big city in our game world. Our goal was logical and the solution was obvious. What made this road trip interesting were all the tiny, or not so tiny, problems we encountered on the way. Give your players a good idea of what to do, and if they refuse to take the bait, give them a good idea of what to do instead.

This is, of course, in no way a guarantee to sucess, but imho, at least it gives a pbp a chance of surviving it's first year.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-14, 12:11 PM
I... have to admit I'm pretty bad at the PbP thing. I've been in... quite a lot of games (I really don't remember how many), mostly because it's impossible to find a RL group in Southampton. Sure, I can find maybe, like, one, two people, but no one wants to DM and I suck at that...

Sometimes I just lose interest in games. This is horrible of me, but I just... bleh.

The best part of games is character interaction, in my view, but that hardly ever happens and then I just lose interest. Feh.

PId6
2009-09-14, 12:25 PM
3.: RAILS!

Seriously. Having to much freedom of choice brings every game to a grinding halt, but this becomes really apparent in pbp. If there is a point at a tabletop game when the players have to stop the action and decide what to do next, they talk about it, let's say, for half an hour. That's all fine, but remember: pbp is slow. Such a discussion could take days, if not weeks, weeks in which nothing interesting happens. Players tend to wander away at times like these.
This. I've seen lots of games just dwindle because of no clear direction. It's just hard to come to any sort of consensus in PbP when you're freeforming with any kind of speed. My best PbP experiences so far have come from games with a clear sense of direction and an obvious overarching goal. Also, DMs should really avoid things that might potentially make the game stuck; puzzles are nice and all but if it's so hard that nobody can figure it out for weeks on end, players will get disinterested. And whenever it looks like the players aren't moving or aren't sure what to do, just send a dragon (metaphorical or literal) at them to get them to start. :smallbiggrin:

Sipex
2009-09-14, 12:37 PM
I've always wanted to to PbP D&D but I've had such bad experiences with PbP games that I just decided to start my own group. The only disadvantage is now I'll never know what it's like to be a player.

Ah well, maybe one day.

Philistine
2009-09-14, 12:39 PM
I've been accepted to perhaps a dozen and a half PbP games, here and elsewhere, since I started looking into such games in late May/early June of last year. Of those, three are still on-going: the very first PbP game I ever even applied to, which is still running more than a year after the first IC posts; a high-powered Gestalt game, currently 8 or 9 months in on another site; and a 4E game which has been running for 3 months (and which I believe has already seen as many encounters as the other two combined :smallwink:), on yet another site. One of the others wrapped up naturally: a one-shot published module which ran for roughly a year, run by the same DM as one of the on-going games described above. The rest have died ingloriously - a couple after a sudden mass vanishing of players, but mostly due to Disappearing DM Syndrome. And yes, it's disappointing - but as others have said, it's no worse than the observed success rate of tabletop gaming.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-14, 01:07 PM
Yep. A Palladium Fantasy game, a few years ago. Even had most of the original players with it.

Samurai Jill
2009-09-14, 02:17 PM
I've tried to address a couple of possible reasons for these problems here, along with some possible solutions-

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124470

I disagree about the need for rails, though. On the contrary, I think PBP is particularly well-suited to freeform play, since the GM has so much time to improvise new scenes, NPCs, locations, etc. What you need is a formal mechanism for achieving player concensus similar to the Duel of Wits.

DeathQuaker
2009-09-14, 04:27 PM
I think PbP games are fun, but there are problems... let's say, problems that are enabled by the Internet/message board interface. You don't see your GM or fellow players, you don't know them personally, and this makes it easy for communication to break down.

When players disappear, it's probably for one of the following reasons:
1) They realize they don't like the game, but rather than give the GM feedback and work out the issue, they just leave to avoid confrontation. The impersonal, detached interface of the message board (or email or whatever you're using) makes this very easy to do.

2) They get busy and/or forget to post. People do that on message boards. They get excited, they post, and then something absorbs them away, and they just don't even think to go back. It's easy to forget online that you've got a real, human DM busting their butt to design and run an adventure.

3) Related to #2, some people are just terrible at time commitments. At the moment they commit to the game, they are absolutely, positively sure they can participate. An hour later, life happens, and they get sucked into one of the other zillion time commitments they've irresponsibly made. (And some people don't take time commitment to roleplaying very seriously, thinking it's "just a game," not realizing they're inconveniencing other people who are waiting for them and wasting their time.)

I honestly, really don't understand myself what's so freaking hard about sending your GM/fellow players a quick email or private message saying, "Hi, I'm really sorry, but I have to pull out of this for x reason." Having to leave is understandable, not doing your group the simple courtesy of telling them is not.

But fact is, most humans, let alone most gamers, are inconsiderate, disrespectful jerks and passive-aggressive cowards. (*Is in a generally bad mood about the human race lately. Doesn't make it less true.*)

When you run a PbP best thing to do is put up an expectation of how often you expect people to post, and say upfront you expect people to tell you first before they leave. That won't magically fix everything, but it will minimize even only slightly some of the worst offenses.

I've had to pull out of a couple PbPs myself (once because of surgery, another time because I got a time-consuming job opportunity I couldn't pass up), but I've always given my group a heads up first.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 05:25 PM
very well put DeathQuaker...
Oh, and people are in general bad with commitment, not just TIME commitment :)

Anyways, I am curious... has anyone here tried video or at least audio chat based play? did it mitigate those issues?

Starbuck_II
2009-09-14, 05:39 PM
I honestly, really don't understand myself what's so freaking hard about sending your GM/fellow players a quick email or private message saying, "Hi, I'm really sorry, but I have to pull out of this for x reason." Having to leave is understandable, not doing your group the simple courtesy of telling them is not.

You aren't an introvert I expect.
For an introvert it can be hard even over internet. Yes, the internet let some be anonymous, but that is a slight factor.
Trolls are largely not introverts; just afraid that real life trolling will get them beat down. So anonymous-nisty has no benefit fot an introvert.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 06:14 PM
a few days ago a friend of mine visited me for 30 minutes... at 11:30pm, in the rain... to pick something up.
He parked in my neighbor's spot... who has video carmera's trained on his empty SECOND parking spot which connect to a monitor next to his PC... in the 30 minutes he was there my neighbor went out and vandalized his car. (by putting a 6x10 inch orange sticker that falls apart badly and leaves nasty glue on... and is super hard to scrape off, also blocking visibility; a year ago he warned me not to park there because he has those stickers and "**** doesn't come off").
We spent an hour scrubbing it, and it left the window and paintjob scratched up...

We could not CONCEIVE how somebody could be so callous, vindicative, crazy, and mean to do something like that. Or so unafraid (vandalizing someone's car? does the guy not read any news? thats a surefire way to get shanked).

People disappearing from a game without the courtesy to let you know is... well... a very minor level of *******.

HealthKit
2009-09-15, 09:56 AM
I've played a number of pbp games in the past, but unfortunately none of them lasted. Mainly due to players and DMs dropping out. A couple of times I chose to leave because I didn't enjoy what was happening in the game, for various reasons. Mainly due to having differences in roleplaying style than most of the other players.

To make long stories short, I had problems with other players metagaming to the extreme and DMs allowing other players go way beyond munchkining.

I kid you not, this one game I was in had a player whose character got turned into what was pretty much an invincible demon serving the game world's evil god. He'd would go around and harass and taunt the other players characters about how the world was turning evil and how there was nothing we could do about it but join in. Seriously, no matter how many times I cast a spell at the guy the DM always ruled that my attacks would miss, no matter what. Even magic missiles. From 10 feet away. I received no explanation for it from the DM, which bothered me to no end. Needless to say, I quit.
Worst part of it all, the guy playing the demon got miffed when I called him a munchkin.


So yeah, I've played a number of pbp games, none of which have turned out well.

ken-do-nim
2009-09-15, 09:18 PM
My pbp/pbem experience has been positive. Lemme see...

As DM
My first pbem started with 1E in 1996 or 1997, converted to 2E around 2000, then converted to 3.5E in 2006 but has been on hiatus since 2007.

My second pbp started with 1E in 2007 and is still going. I started a second party in the same campaign area earlier this year.

I think I put the first one on hiatus partly because I burned out on 3.5 and rediscovered 1E; the other reason being that the 3.5 group is 12th level and takes way more time than the 1E groups which are 1st-2nd level.

I also tried to outreach to a teen with a pbem Basic campaign, but it was short lived.

As player

3.5 pbem that reached the end of the adventure
3.5 pbem, follow-up to the first with just my character, that I quit because I was too busy.
1E pbp that ended prematurely after about a year
LL pbp that I joined in early 2008 and is still going strong
2E pbp that I joined in late 2008 that is down to 2 players but still going
Holmes Basic pbp that did actually reach the end of the first adventure
Mutant Future pbem that also reached the end of the first adventure
RC pbp that started the Jade Hare but barely got anywhere
1E pbp of Temple of Elemental Evil that started about 6 months ago still going strong
1E pbp of Byzantine times that started about 3 months ago still going strong

Tengu_temp
2009-09-15, 10:27 PM
You aren't an introvert I expect.
For an introvert it can be hard even over internet. Yes, the internet let some be anonymous, but that is a slight factor.
Trolls are largely not introverts; just afraid that real life trolling will get them beat down. So anonymous-nisty has no benefit fot an introvert.

You're mistaking introversion for shyness. I'm an extreme introvert, yet I have no problems sending someone a PM with my issues when I need to do that, much less a short "sorry, I'm quitting the game" note.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-15, 10:34 PM
or get to personally SEE said dew spewing... Just an FYI, in my current group most of us sit on a horseshoe shaped table, with a laptop in front... electronic character sheets, text messaging private info with DM, etc...

Amusing as that is, there's the ever present danger of being in the "splash zone". Clearly, chalk one up for online roleplaying. :smallwink:

Zjackrum
2009-09-18, 02:14 PM
I've found very little success in PbP games as well - either the DM goes AWOL, or other players just stop posting. I won't name names, and I won't try to insult anyone, but I think the reason for this is people have certain expectations of their character/campaign and how it's going to run, and refuse to have any sort of compromise (or sufficiently, in the other person's opinion) with other people.
Some people (whether through bad rolls or the DM wanting things to go a certain direction) get upset when things don't work. That's the whole point of D&D! Regardless of how amazing your godly lvl 20+ fighter is, he still has a 5% chance to drop his sword and fumble about like an imebcile with every attack, and usually a higher % chance of turning into a pile of finely ground coffee-bean-equivelent when a wizard casts disentegrate.

I've had very little success getting into PbPs. Much like everyone else here, they seem to die out. I'm happy to say one of the two I started is quite successful, and approaching the two year mark, though with only 3 of the original 6 players. Still, I think that's an impressive feat.

In reference to our player who's PC was graphically and repeatedly raped, it's quite possible this could have been a great plot-sidequest and character-building experience, had the DM set up the issue properly and obtained permission beforehand. As it was, maybe the DM (having a slight god rush at the beginning of a campaign) was eager to display the chief enemy of the campaign? I can only speculate, of course. As a PbP, you lack the ability to slap the DM physically.

What I've found works for me with my successful DM campaign The Da'mall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63457)

1. I try and lay out what sort of a campaign it is, along with the tighter "mission" style system of quests. It takes a lot of the "what now?" out of the PCs hands and allows you to avoid the huge pauses where people debate the next step. Conversely, you don't want it to be too much of a hand-holder, or else PCs feel constricted.
2. Have something to unify the characters - that they know each other or have worked together somehow. If people chat a bit or set up IC friendships before it starts, you can avoid the awkward opening much like school, where you're sat with a bunch of strangers and told to play nice.
3. Ask the PLAYERS what they want! Obviously this takes a bit of free-hand from actual campaigns, and is not always possible, but sometimes its the only way to let rogues spread their wings and keep everyone happy.

Coincidentally, if anyone here is upset with their PbP experience, my campaign will be recruiting more people within the next week or so. So woooo free advertisement.

Jair Barik
2009-09-18, 02:52 PM
I've also noticed that smaller groups tend to work better. I have a game with 4, and we easily made it through 4 encounters faster than another game got through one. Of course, its harder to get into smaller games since statistically speaking, they accept fewer applications.

I assume you mean Frozen wastes?

Personally I have DMed a number of games and they all end the same way. Players disappear, people stop responding to my PM's and I get slightly depressed. I carry on posting as long as the players keep responding but eventually if it gets down to me and one player I feel like there's no point in continuing it. I don't get reasons or anything people just stop posting (even if I was DMing as a response to a DM wanted request)