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ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-14, 12:32 AM
Okay, I've taken it upon myself to make a CW Samurai... useful. As in a realistic threat.

So, I've decided to capitalize on the one thing they can do... intimidate.

Basically, the plan is to fear-kite someone around until they fall over.

However, I've run into something of a problem: Intimidating to Demoralize an Opponent is a Standard Action, and the effects only last one round.

If I could figure out a way to do one of the following, it would make this build possible:

1) reduce time on Demoralizing an Opponent to a move, or even Swift/Free action

2) Have another method of applying a fear effect quickly enough that I could take advantage of it.

3) Have a way of reliably and consistently gaining multiple standard actions in one round

Hopefully without loosing too many CW Samurai levels.

This has to be done at CL 13, no races with LA > 1, and no RHD. No Leadership cheese, either.

I checked Factorum, only it needs 8 levels to get Cunning Surge, which only leaves 5 CW Samurai levels, which really isn't enough to capitalize on the CW Samurai Staredown ability. Besides, at that point, it really isn't a CW Samurai, it's a Factorum with some dead levels thrown in for flavor.

Hustle only grants move actions

Belt of Battle can only grant a Standard Action 1/day and it would take too long to switch them out to be of any use.

I looked at a one-level dip in Barbarian for Intimidating Rage, but that will only work once in the fight. I need a way of applying two Demoralize actions per round, plus be able to do something else to actually affect them while they're running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Anyone have any ideas?

Keld Denar
2009-09-14, 12:46 AM
Hmmmm, definitely needs Imperious Command from DotUD. This essentially gives you 2 rounds of fear instead of one.

There is also armor, still in DotUD, that gives you the ability to make intimidate checks a few times as a move action. This leaves your standard action to do other stuff.

Never Outnumbered skill trick gives you 1/encounter AoE fear, always handy.

Dreadful Wrath in PGtF gives you a fear when ever you attack or charge.

I'd try to work in 4 levels of Hexblade. Dark Companion + Hex + Fear is an awesome set-up for a friendly Save vs Death.

And 1+ levels of Barbarian for Intimadating Rage.

Dread Witch allows you to fear stuff that can't be feared, which gets around your biggest weakness. Haven't really looked at it much to see if there is viable entry though. Maybe with Hexblade...

If you can squeeze the feats, Three Mountains is pretty good as long as you are debuffin. Fear helps jack up the save, and folks can't do much while their wettin themselves AND pukin up chunks.

Just some random ideas. The other part of "fear kiting" is snaring. Nets, Tanglefoot Bags, and Entangling Exhalation can snare foes while you freak em out and make em puke on themselves.

I think Person_Man put together a compendium of fear effects and intimidation stuffs. Might be a great spot to look.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-14, 12:48 AM
Frightful Presence (Cha 15, Intimidate 9 ranks) [Drac]: Decent. Whenever you attack or charge, all opponents within a radius of 30 feet who have fewer levels or Hit Dice than you become shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d6 + your Cha modifier.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-14, 12:53 AM
Hmmmm, definitely needs Imperious Command from DotUD. This essentially gives you 2 rounds of fear instead of one.

There is also armor, still in DotUD, that gives you the ability to make intimidate checks a few times as a move action. This leaves your standard action to do other stuff. Will definately check this source! Thanks!


Never Outnumbered skill trick gives you 1/encounter AoE fear, always handy. CW Samurai 10 gives me this unlimited use.


Dreadful Wrath in PGtF gives you a fear when ever you attack or charge. What is PGtF?


I'd try to work in 4 levels of Hexblade. Dark Companion + Hex + Fear is an awesome set-up for a friendly Save vs Death. Hmm... that might be tough if I want to keep CW Samurai 10 for Mass Staredown...


And 1+ levels of Barbarian for Intimadating Rage. Only works when you rage, so it cannot be used multiple times


Dread Witch allows you to fear stuff that can't be feared, which gets around your biggest weakness. Haven't really looked at it much to see if there is viable entry though. Maybe with Hexblade... Now that sounds interesting, as long as it doesn't detract too much from my goal of maintaining as many CW Samurai levels.


If you can squeeze the feats, Three Mountains is pretty good as long as you are debuffin. Fear helps jack up the save, and folks can't do much while their wettin themselves AND pukin up chunks. Where is that found? Sounds very interesting.


Just some random ideas. The other part of "fear kiting" is snaring. Nets, Tanglefoot Bags, and Entangling Exhalation can snare foes while you freak em out and make em puke on themselves. This is quite true. I got a way to move pretty quickly, but this is always beneficial. It only takes one level of Dragonfire Adept to get a breath to put Entangling Exhalation, right?


I think Person_Man put together a compendium of fear effects and intimidation stuffs. Might be a great spot to look.

I'll have to check it out!

Thanks, man, you've been a big help!


Frightful Presence (Cha 15, Intimidate 9 ranks) [Drac]: Decent. Whenever you attack or charge, all opponents within a radius of 30 feet who have fewer levels or Hit Dice than you become shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d6 + your Cha modifier. Bolded is the problem. ToS runs with everyone being the same HD, so this does no good. Otherwise, I'd have gotten Kai Shout and Greater Kai Shout from CW and Panic everyone around.

Eldariel
2009-09-14, 01:01 AM
What is PGtF?

Player's Guide to Faerun


Where is that found? Sounds very interesting.

Dread Witch is in Heroes of Horror. Unfortunately it's a caster PrC so entering it isn't easy. You need Cause Fear and Scare-spells available to get in, and it only works on spells so it's a no-go.


And yeah, I'd suggest Fighter if Zhentarim subs weren't so high. As it stands, they actually make the Fighter better intimidator than the Samurai. Anyways, I'd take the Barbarian-dip anyways; thanks to Imperious Command, getting even just one Intimidate off really screws them over provided you can capitalize.

Keld Denar
2009-09-14, 01:08 AM
What is PGtF?
Players Guide to Faerun. FR regional feat...but whatever, flavor is mutable anyway...level 1 only is the stipulation.


Only works when you rage, so it cannot be used multiple times
Extra Rage is only 1 feat away. That brings you up to 3/day with 1 level and 1 feat.


Where is that found? Sounds very interesting.
Three Mountains is in Complete Warrior, back in the Weapon Styles section of the feats, near Lightning Maces, Quickstaff, and High Sword Low Axe.


This is quite true. I got a way to move pretty quickly, but this is always beneficial. It only takes one level of Dragonfire Adept to get a breath to put Entangling Exhalation, right?
Actually, if you used Dragonborn of Bahamut, you could get it every 1d4 rounds. Quicken Breath from Draconomicon would allow you to do it as a free action, although that makes it a 1/combat trick (unless Quicken Breath is ruled as a swift action like Quickened Spells were changed to.


Thanks, man, you've been a big help!
Its what we do. Take a facet of the game, hold it up to a microscope, and analyze the crap out of it!

taltamir
2009-09-14, 01:11 AM
But...
1. intimidate is also a class feature for other classes
2. why bother scaring someone when you can just stab him instead?
3. why bother intimidating someone when magical fear is more effective?
4. too many of the monsters faced are immuned to fear anyways, focusing a class on mind effect is a crippling that class in real combat. Good luck intimidating the undead, oozes, elementals, golems, etc... All of which are completely immune to enchantment as well... but completely useless against illusion (they cannot attempt to disbelieve it, they will not hit you back through an illusionary wall you are hitting them through, because they cannot disbelieve its existence).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-14, 01:17 AM
Cause it's funny.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-14, 01:20 AM
But...
1. intimidate is also a class feature for other classes But CW Samurai have additional class features which expand upon it

2. why bother scaring someone when you can just stab him instead? Because if you can keep him scared, he will be unable to attack you, and you can then stab him with impunity

3. why bother intimidating someone when magical fear is more effective? Precisely because it is non-magical. Also, magical fear is almost always Will/Negates. Intimidate is a contested check. When I can ridiculously easily get my Intimidate bonuses to 40+, it is a far surer thing than a simple Will/Negates.

4. too many of the monsters faced are immuned to fear anyways, focusing a class on mind effect is a crippling that class in real combat. Good luck intimidating the undead, oozes, elementals, golems, etc... All of which are completely immune to enchantment as well... but completely useless against illusion (they cannot attempt to disbelieve it, they will not hit you back through an illusionary wall you are hitting them through, because they cannot disbelieve its existence).

I think you are missing the point here. The point is not to create the most uber fear-guy around. It's to make a CW Samurai... useful. I am using CW Samurai precisely because I want to see if I can make one which can at least hold his own against other things his CR.

Keld Denar
2009-09-14, 01:21 AM
Insult to injury! Cause you can look at something you beat up and laugh, cause it just got pwned by one of the worst classes ever? Cause its a challenge?

Kinda like, back when I used to play M:TG, and after completely locking my opponent down with combo A + B + C, slowly pinging them to death with a lonely Prodical Sorcerer, one damage at a time.

Yea, that kind of insult!

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-14, 01:25 AM
Insult to injury! Cause you can look at something you beat up and laugh, cause it just got pwned by one of the worst classes ever? Cause its a challenge?

Kinda like, back when I used to play M:TG, and after completely locking my opponent down with combo A + B + C, slowly pinging them to death with a lonely Prodical Sorcerer, one damage at a time.

Yea, that kind of insult!

Not to mention Braggin' Rights!

"Oh yea? I can top that. Anyone can win with an Infinite Loop. I once won a duel with a Complete Warrior Samurai."

Now that? That right there is worthy of sigging. Hell, even having the moxie to try is worthy of mention, even if you get curb-stomped in the process.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 01:27 AM
i am not saying not to work with the class, I was asking why take it this route (aka, use its intimidation)...

And AFAIK you CANNOT stab something while keeping it feared... but you COULD fear it while your teammates stab it. which make you into a one shot utility caster. (who only has the fear spell).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-14, 01:30 AM
i am not saying not to work with the class, I was asking why take it this route (aka, use its intimidation)...

And AFAIK you CANNOT stab something while keeping it feared... but you COULD fear it while your teammates stab it. which make you into a one shot utility caster. (who only has the fear spell).

That, my friend, is where I called upon the resources of this board to try and prove you wrong.

Imperious Command may well just let me do that. Turn one, you are Cowering. Turn two, you are still shaken.

Never underestimate the power of CharOp, my son.

I am using Intimidate over magical fear effects for the following reason:

* It is an (Ex) ability. That means I can do it in an AMF, I can use it against things with SR and not worry about it going *FIZZLE*

* It doesn't allow a save. Instead, it is contested vs the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). So if my opponent has a Wisdom of 20, and 13 HD, the contested check is 1d20 + 18 + any miscalaneous modifiers. However, at level 13, I can have 16 ranks in Intimidate, plus my Charisma score, plus any modifiers I might have. CW Samurai nets me a +6 on that check, then grab a Crystal Mask of Dread for another +10, and my opponent won't have a chance in heck of making the save.

* I don't run out. Wizards can cast various Fear effects, what, five or six times at most before running out of that spell level? This guy can do it every round, all day long, for as long as he cares to.

Eldariel
2009-09-14, 01:31 AM
i am not saying not to work with the class, I was asking why take it this route (aka, use its intimidation)...

And AFAIK you CANNOT stab something while keeping it feared... but you COULD fear it while your teammates stab it. which make you into a one shot utility caster. (who only has the fear spell).

You can stab something while it's cowering provided you didn't take a standard action to intimidate...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-14, 01:37 AM
You can stab something while it's cowering provided you didn't take a standard action to intimidate... Or if you can get multiple standard actions. Or if you extend the duration of your fear effect to greater than one round...

there's lots of ways to go about doing this. I'm going to try to do it with as many CW Samurai levels and as few levels of anything else as I can.

Right now, I'm looking at Fearsome armor (DotUD) which lets me Intimidate on a move action, and comboing that with the previously mentioned feat which lets me cause someone to cower on a demoralize. In other words, they can't even move, they just stay put and wet themselves.

In other words, perma-lockdown. Interesting, in theory. Tomorrow, I shall put it into practice.

Edit: Bah, MIC horridly nerfed this down to oblivion. It's now a 3/day magical fear effect with crap save.