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taltamir
2009-09-14, 04:16 AM
I was reading over item familiar, it has been mentioned before that it is a terrible idea. You get massive overbearing powers, and the "only" downside is that the DM is told he can balance it out with the "risk" which you "agreed to" of having the said item destroyed or lost, permanently gimping your character without hope for recovery.
I honestly think they were trying to go for a "sauron's ring" thing with this... or rather, PART of it (it obviously is much more).

But I also noticed a rather big exploit which I think is worth mentioning...
1. according to the RAW, loss of the item familiar results in permanent loss of powers, XP, and skill points, because they are invest INTO the item.
2. you can inherit an item familiar.
3. Nothing requires you to keep on investing in the item familiar after you acquired it.

Conclusion: You can slaughter a high level character with an item familiar, or inherit one peacefully, and bind it with a single feat. Gaining many abilities at no risk, since you will not invest it with ANYTHING. Losing it just means you lost the powers already within it... and you can just bond ANOTHER one at this point.

Also, if you DID create your own item familiar and then lose it. Just steal and attune one from another person who has an item familiar.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-14, 04:36 AM
Might be a little tricky to find someone with an item familiar just waiting for you to kill them, though.

Bayar
2009-09-14, 04:38 AM
Yes, those are well and nice, but unless you plan on killing yourself and the item familiar going to another party member, the DM may simply say: "There is no one else that has an item familiar in this multiverse".

taltamir
2009-09-14, 09:25 AM
Yes, those are well and nice, but unless you plan on killing yourself and the item familiar going to another party member, the DM may simply say: "There is no one else that has an item familiar in this multiverse".

inter party fighting :)

plus, if there is noone in the multiverse with item familiar, than why are you allowed to take it as a feat? Your power is directly proportional to how rare an ability it is.

Kylarra
2009-09-14, 09:28 AM
Yes, those are well and nice, but unless you plan on killing yourself and the item familiar going to another party member, the DM may simply say: "There is no one else that has an item familiar in this multiverse".Well more to the point, can simply keep you from encountering anyone else with a cheesy item familiar unless you go actively searching for it (and remember, due to the risk of losing it, people aren't going to be advertising their presence).


inter party fighting :)
If you're conspiring with fellow players to try to exploit an item loophole, why stop there and not just refer to each other as "loot points" and pick and choose the magic items you want as they continually respawn?

arguskos
2009-09-14, 09:29 AM
Yes, it's an good exploit, but among those any sane DM will look at and say, "Absolutely not." Oh, guess what tal? "Absolutely not." :smalltongue:

Anyways, this is yet another reason I don't permit Item Familiars (unless you're a truenamer, in which case, you get one at level 1 for free).

Akal Saris
2009-09-14, 10:24 AM
Do your truenamers still have to worry about their item familiars getting broken though? =P

Starbuck_II
2009-09-14, 10:29 AM
Yes, it's an good exploit, but among those any sane DM will look at and say, "Absolutely not." Oh, guess what tal? "Absolutely not." :smalltongue:

Anyways, this is yet another reason I don't permit Item Familiars (unless you're a truenamer, in which case, you get one at level 1 for free).

Wow, your nice to give the Truenamer a bone.

Does CW Samurai get anything as well?

ghost_warlock
2009-09-14, 10:39 AM
Does CW Samurai get anything as well?

Yes, this:
http://www.splotchy.com/images/blog/uncon/tank.jpg

Khatoblepas
2009-09-14, 10:41 AM
Does CW Samurai get anything as well?

A +1 Axiomatic, Entropic, Holy, Unholy Katana? That way, they can reroll as something a little better. Or be a totally sweet undead.

To be honest, I don't think Item Familiars are that bad, apart from the free XP thing. So long as you keep it safe it's totally fine. I think a Wizard with the Magic Staff variant (Dragon Magazine, replaces familiar) could make his also an Item Familiar and that would still be thematically correct.

Hmmm. I might have to try and build a guy like that.

arguskos
2009-09-14, 11:07 AM
Wow, your nice to give the Truenamer a bone.

Does CW Samurai get anything as well?
Yes, a swift kick to the skull and a point to the Samurai in Oriental Adventures. :smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2009-09-14, 11:17 AM
To be honest, I don't think Item Familiars are that bad, apart from the free XP thing. So long as you keep it safe it's totally fine. I think a Wizard with the Magic Staff variant (Dragon Magazine, replaces familiar) could make his also an Item Familiar and that would still be thematically correct.

I have never met a GM who allows Item Familiars and they are banned for the ToS except for Truenamers who cannot really function without them. They are, in my extensive experience, bad news. Specifically, they become an intelligent item. You pick their powers. Extremely not good. This starts to screwball action economy rapidly. Particularly if you also snag Obtain Familiar.

arguskos
2009-09-14, 11:23 AM
Eh, Tide, I don't believe that Obtain Familiar can stack with Item Familiar. Doesn't Obtain not work if you already have a familiar?

Doc Roc
2009-09-14, 11:31 AM
It's not clear, really, if it can stack. I am pretty sure it borks up if you already have a normal familiar, but you can use it if you traded your familiar away for alternate class features.

arguskos
2009-09-14, 11:34 AM
Item Familiars ARE familiars though. Huh. Yet another thing to chalk up to bad editing and consideration. :smallconfused:

Stegyre
2009-09-14, 12:16 PM
Eh, Tide, I don't believe that Obtain Familiar can stack with Item Familiar. Doesn't Obtain not work if you already have a familiar?
Avoid the issue altogether by simply getting Extra Familiar.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 12:39 PM
Yes, it's an good exploit, but among those any sane DM will look at and say, "Absolutely not." Oh, guess what tal? "Absolutely not." :smalltongue:

Anyways, this is yet another reason I don't permit Item Familiars (unless you're a truenamer, in which case, you get one at level 1 for free).

i assure you i do not want this... I look for "bugs" to squish them, not to abuse them :)

Anyways, any plan of action that is by the RAW that results in a DM saying "absolutely not" rather than "you misread the rules" is a proof of brokeness IMAO.
Compound on it that the only solution so far is to either ban it, or rule you the only person in existance capable of having one :)


Item Familiars ARE familiars though. Huh. Yet another thing to chalk up to bad editing and consideration. :smallconfused:

Available to warriors and other non casters with just one feat :)

taltamir
2009-09-14, 01:06 PM
I think I have an interesting by the book solution... You want to steal someone elses item familiar? fine, it is very highely powered, magical, free, and has a different alignment than you... and it has a high ego score...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm#itemEgo

tsk... uh oh, it seemed you failed the ego contest for it, the item forces you to die / attack the guards / place a geas on yourself to serve it forever / whatever.

Unless you invest it yourself, you are basically trying to wring a wish from your DM against his wishes and thinking it is a smart idea. :P

EDIT: Wait, no good, you can just win that difficult check and get a very powerful item... since you can immediately bind it.
Yea, it is broken as hell. Obviously should be banned by everyone (and it is) and has no redeemable value.