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View Full Version : [3.5] Non-Magical boosts to skills?



Rhiannon87
2009-09-14, 03:59 PM
I've been looking around trying to find rules for something like this and coming up dry, so I'm turning to the playgrounders for help.

Next session of the campaign I'm running, the party is going to be investigating what is basically an abandoned research hospital. Healers and clerics studied new ways of magical and mundane healing here, and helped to take care of people with strange and unusual illnesses or diseases. While the place has been abandoned, there's still some notes around. I had the idea that they could collect these notes and, if a character wanted to spend 48 hours (non-consecutively) studying the notes, they could get a +2 misc bonus to their Heal checks. It wouldn't be a one-time thing; any character who was interested could read them and get this bonus (I'm thinking about switching this to 'any character with Heal as a class skill', though).

Does this seem balanced, or overpowered? I figure it's a nice bit of fluff, and heal isn't really used all that often (at least, it hasn't been in the games I've played). If it is unbalanced, what can I do to re-balance it? I like the idea of being able to study some long-lost notes and learn something that improves a skill you have, within reason.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-14, 04:00 PM
Perfectly balanced. Heal is a rather weak skill most of the time.

The Neoclassic
2009-09-14, 04:01 PM
To the contrary, I think it won't mess up Balance at all if it's accessible to all players, especially since Heal isn't a crazy-overused skill in most cases. Unless, for example, magical healing isn't available in your setting, I can't see this causing any issues.

I have to say though, I was a little disappointed: The thread's title made me think we were going to discuss all different sorts of nonmagical bonuses to various skills. :smallsmile:

Jothki
2009-09-14, 04:05 PM
If you really wanted to make sure it was balanced, you could consider the knowledge to have the same value as a slotless item that gives a +2 boost to healing, work out a price for that, and then take that cost out of whatever treasure the party is getting.

Mystral
2009-09-14, 04:06 PM
Sounds like a rather nice idea. I'd make it a circumstance bonus, though.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 04:17 PM
i never liked the idea that skills are something that is tied to level... this means that your town blacksmith HAS to have enough HP to take 10 swords to the gut. That your local town elder MUST be able to do the same. Etc.

Not to mention that it mixes levels, combat skills, and utility skills all at once.
Id have liked to have combat skills be tied to level (with less skill points). While mundane skills be aquired via notes and tomes and research. Or training... aka... party needs ride, none have it (because they COULD NOT have gained it by simply going around on foot for 4 levels killing stuff). They find a good teacher, pay him, and undergo a week of intensive training, gaining X skillpoints to ride.

For spellcraft or lore? look for BOOKS... can make for a fun adventure, where you actually go into ancient ruins to find a NON MAGIC book to READ the damn thing instead of selling it. Great RP as well... while the combat skills remain combative.

This actually works nicely in downtime... you have returned to the city, you spend the next year training, studying in the mage college, training in the warrior college, prowling the streets... you gain X mundane skillpoints to distribute at will.

arguskos
2009-09-14, 04:22 PM
i never liked the idea that skills are something that is tied to level... this means that your town blacksmith HAS to have enough HP to take 10 swords to the gut. That your local town elder MUST be able to do the same. Etc.
Eh, this is a fallacy that isn't really true. The local blacksmith can just take 10 on making a sword and, with his +3 Int mod, +5 or 6 ranks, and +2 from his apprentice (Aid Another), bam! DC 20-21 right there. That's enough to make nearly anything non-magically speaking. If he must, he can just take 20 and get a 30. This is at level 2, and only assumes a 16 Int. Let's make that a 14, and he's still making 20s and 30s.

Look at the basic Knowledge checks. DCs in the mid teens, low 20s, almost all around the board. It's reasonable to assume that the town elder (being the town elder) is an Expert, has Skill Focus in a few Knowledges, and is probably level 3 or so. This means he has 6 ranks in Knowledge (nature). Add his probable Int of 14-16 (depending on age category and level), skill focus, and he's making 20s with a simple take 10 attempt.

This is easy math to do. Sure, he won't know detailed complex information, but he'll know the basics, and if you look at fantasy literature, that's the norm in most settings.

Hell, a level ONE PC Int-based character can probably make a DC 20 check a good 50% of the time (+4 Int, 4 ranks, possibly +2 from synergy, Aid Another, feats, and/or skill check items), and that's ROLLING the die!

Person_Man
2009-09-14, 04:26 PM
Seems fine. I've always been of the opinion that the Heal Skill should be far more powerful anyway. Healing Surges are one of the things 4E got right.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 04:27 PM
Eh, this is a fallacy that isn't really true. The local blacksmith can just take 10 on making a sword and, with his +3 Int mod, +5 or 6 ranks, and +2 from his apprentice (Aid Another), bam! DC 20-21 right there. That's enough to make nearly anything non-magically speaking. If he must, he can just take 20 and get a 30. This is at level 2, and only assumes a 16 Int. Let's make that a 14, and he's still making 20s and 30s.

Look at the basic Knowledge checks. DCs in the mid teens, low 20s, almost all around the board. It's reasonable to assume that the town elder (being the town elder) is an Expert, has Skill Focus in a few Knowledges, and is probably level 3 or so. This means he has 6 ranks in Knowledge (nature). Add his probable Int of 14-16 (depending on age category and level), skill focus, and he's making 20s with a simple take 10 attempt.

This is easy math to do. Sure, he won't know detailed complex information, but he'll know the basics, and if you look at fantasy literature, that's the norm in most settings.

Hell, a level ONE PC Int-based character can probably make a DC 20 check a good 50% of the time (+4 Int, 4 ranks, possibly +2 from synergy, Aid Another, feats, and/or skill check items), and that's ROLLING the die!

sorry, i meant the ULTRASMITH who makes 30+ DC nonmagic items from exotic materials. Like, say, the dwarf we met in our campaign... we KNOW, for a FACT, that he HAS to be able to TPK us in a fight because he HAS to be a high level character to be able to smith exotic materials.

Also, requiring him to have +5 to into (making him supergenious rarer than 1/millions) is even WORSE.

Show me a craftsman capable of making a masterwork adamantium fullplate at level 1. (he is level 1 because he has NEVER, EVER, been in combat or adventured, he only knows smithing from a lifetime of forgework)

arguskos
2009-09-14, 04:33 PM
sorry, i meant the ULTRASMITH who makes 30+ DC nonmagic items from exotic materials. Like, say, the dwarf we met in our campaign... we KNOW, for a FACT, that he HAS to be able to TPK us in a fight because he HAS to be a high level character to be able to smith exotic materials.
Dude, Cromwell is a retired adventurer, yeah, he'd beat your ass. He's also a Fighter 10/Expert 4 who took Craft (weaponsmithing) and Craft (armorsmithing) as something to do with his downtime between adventures. :smalltongue: Hardly a good example.

Here, have a higher level example of a smith that is pretty reasonable:
Level 7 Expert
+3 Int
+10 ranks
+2 Aid Another
+3 Skill Focus
+4 Craft (whatever) item
Total: +22 before checks. He's level 7. The party in my game right now probably take him, since a level 7 NPC has low wealth, and most of his money went into that craft item. I didn't even give him a GOOD one, just a crappy +4.

*sigh* No smith can create masterwork adamantine full plate at level 1, but then again, smithing doesn't mean he never levels up either, just that as an NPC, he faces smaller challenges and doesn't level like a PC. Smiths level over time, like all NPCs. Hell, most NPCs in the world at at least level 3, just due to getting older and defeating "encounters", such as a bad harvest, a pushy adventurer wants his sword RIGHT NOW, etc. Fax Celestis has a good rubric I saw for such things.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 04:46 PM
ok, see, I always thought a level is exclusively COMBAT POWERS. because a level MUST:
1. give you hit dice
2. give you save bonuses
3. give you BAB (and as a result, attacks per round) increase
4. give a fixed amount of skill points
5. give a set of skills

For example, any wizard casting a level 5 spells has 11 hit die... its not like wizards are unaware of it, they have spells that buff individual attributes (there are 6), they have spells that are LIMITED to only affect creatures above a certain power level... just like they know "charm person" doesn't work on aberrations, they know that any wizard capable of casting spells of specific power is immune to specific spells AND can a specific (average) amount of swords to the gut. Say, somewhere between RANK 5 (CL9) and rank 6 (CL11) an wizard typically becomes suddenly immune to a certain spell.

Now they might not be aware of it being "hit dice"... and they probably have NO way of knowing what the ranks of NON casters are... but when encountering a caster they can probably say "ah, fireball, that is a rank 3 (CL5) spell. My strongest spell is 1 rank below him". So rather than thinking in caster levels, they would be thinking in "spell ranks", there being 9 levels of wizardry as far as THEY know... well in classical setting. Homebrew worlds differ...

A simple solution i think is to just say that IN ADDITION to level gained skills, a year of training (with a master of greater skill) = 1 skillpoint; self teaching takes MUCH longer and requires ridiculous luck (say, 1% of gaining a skillpoint per year trainer)... an elderly dwarven master smith who was not an adventurer is level 1, he has 5 skillpoints in it from his commoner level. 30 skillpoints from training over 200 years. (first 25 with a master, last 5 through self discovery), those give him a "training" bonus to a skill.

This can be akin to researchers who are mapping the human brain (can actually record the electrical signals in it and produce a LOW LOW LOW resolution image of what you are seeing... if you look at the same thing for 4 hours in a row). And to physicists calculating the exact interactions of gravity, the results of moving in the speed of light, etc

arguskos
2009-09-14, 04:53 PM
Nope, characters level from acquiring XP, which is done by overcoming "challenges" and "encounters", which are defined in the DMG as being anything that is difficult to pass or get around. Basically, a Commoner levels up (slowly, but they do) as they age, because they are surviving. An 18 year old Commoner is probably level 2 or 3, as they've gone through some limited schooling (an extended series of Int checks, which they've overcome), learned the tricks of the family trade (farming, cobbling, whatever), and have been working at it for a few years. All that added together is enough to put them at level 3 or so, because each day is a challenge, just a REALLLLLY small one. :smallwink:

Like I said, Fax came up with a great system for this.

As for your idea, it's a decent one, but not really realistic. Why should the dwarven master NOT be hardier as he ages? He works out every day as a blacksmith, anyone who's smithed at all knows you toughen up the more you do it. Same for farming, or any number of manual labor crafts. For the more intellectual ones, like Knowledge checks, well, the more you have to make those checks, the sharper your mind gets, and the better at them you get. It's the same leveling process, just fluffed a bit differently.

Really, the leveling process works just fine. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-09-14, 05:00 PM
Why should the dwarven master NOT be hardier as he ages
The vast majority of them WILL be because they live hundreds of years in a warrior society.
But it makes it POSSIBLE to have a master who is completely incompetent in battle and can be easily offed by any first level PC. Which, of course, is gonna get a huge amount of dwarfs out to slaughter you.

arguskos
2009-09-14, 05:02 PM
The vast majority of them WILL be because they live hundreds of years in a warrior society.
But it makes it POSSIBLE to have a master who is completely incompetent in battle and can be easily offed by any first level PC. Which, of course, is gonna get a huge amount of dwarfs out to slaughter you.
...and what's the point of this, exactly? Not only is it blatantly unrealistic in ANY sense, it serves no purpose to make the master blacksmith able to be killed in one blow. :smallconfused:

Not sure why you feel this is a desirable thing, but ok then, I'll just let you to it.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 05:06 PM
Anyways, still we are talking about level 2 or 3 as you said. Yet a godly smith needs to be an adventurer first and say... 14th level? where he gained most of his smithing capability from killing monsters, instead of working the smith for years.

Not EVERYTHING I say is in regards to the campaign we are not playing. I was generalizing about DnD... the rule is, anyone who is really good at a craft is really good at fighting. This gives players metagame expectations...

Players: wait, what do you mean our blacksmith was assasinated and the suit of magical phlegium armor stolen? damn, no way we are chasing them, we are only level 3 and he was like, level 10+ at least...

I think it harms suspension of disbelief, because I THINK of it every time i meet a master of.. well, any skill.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-14, 05:10 PM
18 base Int is a one in 216 chance. I don't find it unrealistic that an adamantine craftsman would be one of the smartest people the dwarves can produce. So let's look at that expert at level 4:

+6 Int (+4 base, +1.5 age, +.5 level)
+7 ranks
+2 tools
+3 skill focus
+2 race
+2 Apprentice (DMG2 feat, presumably his apprenticeship is over)

That's +22 before Aid Another, making those ultra-high skill checks. And given that he's venerable, his Constitution is probably around 6. That's an average of 2 hp per level, which means he has 8 hp. Hardly TPK potential. Make him a commoner (since he only needs Craft) and that's about 5 hp total. Add two more levels to snatch the Mentor feat, and now you have +26 before magic items or Aid Another. Still enough hp that your Strength 8 wizard could one-shot him with a greataxe.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 05:12 PM
i stand correct Foryn Gilnith. ok it is doable...
BUT. The OPTIMAL way of gaining skills is still slaughtering monsters instead of training.

I think, generally, what my point overall is. It makes sense to simply use the occasion illegal character (with more skills, abilities, etc, than it should have). And let your players know that... "don't expect too much ridgidity, I have illegal characters that cannot be made by the RAW, the RAW balances you against each other. Some gifted individuals too great to party with you, or too unoptimized for combat, can be someplete different)...

This also means you don't have to STAT every single NPC... your NPC just HAS a craft skill... unless the players decide to kill him, he never needs any other skill. And if they do you could just decide between "lemme stat him, he puts up a fight" and "you slaughter the helpless and defenseless guy..." (whose clan then scrys to find you and sends assassins to avenge him

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-14, 05:14 PM
Admittedly, such figures are not necessarily immediately obvious. I dipped into a non-core source and gave the sample smith the best possible starting Intelligence. But I assume most master skillworkers are Venerable - the wizened old master. That +1.5 to their skill and -6 to Constitution really does wonders to create a highly skilled person that knows little about combat.

arguskos
2009-09-14, 05:16 PM
Thing is, you're still wrong about the smith being so powerful he can solo the party. Look at my level 7 smith example above. An Expert of level 7 has the following stats, being nice and giving him the Elite array:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 16 (including the +1 from being level 7)
Wis 10
Cha 8

He has 7d8+7 hp. Taking this as the default (so, average on each die), this works out to 38 hp. His AC won't be greater than 20, probably less so, since he's a craftsman, and doesn't keep nice armor or weapons on hand.

Look at a level THREE Fighter NPC. He'll have 3d10+6 hp (assuming a Con of 14), so, 22 on average. His AC will be, at least, 17 or so. He'll probably be able to take the Expert out in a good few hits. If he can't alone, then two or three could in a round or two, tops.

This sample level 7 smith is in his 50s, has spent his whole life smithing, and is one of the best smiths in the nation. And he gets taken down by a pair of mooks. Right then. I think we can do away with this silly notion that high-end skill-based characters are insanely powerful.

As for my campaign, and Cromwell in particular, he's a unique and rare example. You didn't ask me about Marius, the Art Dealer. Guess what? He's a level 4 Expert. He has about 20 hp.

EDIT: Everything Foryn said applies too. I'm being reasonable and going with middle-of-their-life examples, not even the wizened elder master archetype. :smallamused:

EDIT 2: Yes, I agree with that point tal, and I tend to work things that way. It's easier to just say, "he has a +15 to craft at level 3" and be done with it. However, the rules also permit for these things with no need for handwaving, and that's my point. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-09-14, 05:18 PM
This sample level 7 smith is in his 50s, has spent his whole life smithing, and is one of the best smiths in the nation. And he gets taken down by a pair of mooks. Right then. I think we can do away with this silly notion that high-end skill-based characters are insanely powerful.

As for my campaign, and Cromwell in particular, he's a unique and rare example. You didn't ask me about Marius, the Art Dealer. Guess what? He's a level 4 Expert. He has about 20 hp.

I guess i made too many wrong assumptions. I stand corrected.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 05:19 PM
waitaminute... are you telling me you fully stated and leveled each NPC just in CASE we decide to murder him?

arguskos
2009-09-14, 05:22 PM
waitaminute... are you telling me you fully stated and leveled each NPC just in CASE we decide to murder him?
Yes, I generally know the basic stats of nearly everyone you ever encounter, just because I can do the basic math off the top of my head. :smallwink:

For example, Marius probably has a 14 Int and 12 Con (elite array, general way of arranging it). As a middle aged human, he is about level 4 or 5. This gives him 4 or 5 d8 hit dice. The average roll on a d8 is 4.5, so 4.5x4=17, plus 4 is 21. Bam, hp for Marius in 20 seconds or less.

EDIT: I feel I must apologize to Rhiannion for nicking their thread. Hope you didn't mind! :smallredface:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-14, 05:29 PM
And just to add a final piece...

Vuursivian, the Min/Maxed Elven Master Painter

Race:
Venerable Arctic Elf (Craft (Painting)) [UA]

Class:
Factotum 4 [Dungeonscape]

Traits:
Illiterate (Craft (Painting)) [paid 2 skill points to remove]
Specialized (Craft (Painting))

Feats (apply flaws as necessary to get them):
Skill Focus (Craft (Painting))
Apprentice (Craftsman) [DMG2]
Focused Mind [RotW]

Stats:
Str -8
Dex -4
Con -6
Int +3
Wis +3
Cha +3

Miscellaneous:
Masterwork Tools
Magic Items?

At level 4, and starting with 18 Int, Vuursivian has a +26 Craft (painting) modifier when taking 10, before magic items. Xe is regularly pumping out DC 40 works by taking 10.

+4 Cunning Inspiration, +2 race, +6 Int, +2 traits, +2 Apprentice, +2 tools, +3 Skill Focus, +7 ranks, +2 Focused Mind

deuxhero
2009-09-14, 05:42 PM
Complete Scoundrel allows you to gain skill focus (and various other feats) via pilgrimages (or gold if done at character creation), Skill Focus (Heal) via visiting the hospital is standard for that system.

dspeyer
2009-09-15, 12:08 AM
One campaign I played in had the rule that if we came across a source of specialized knowledge we would get a free skill point in that. So after thoroughly studying a specific history book, I gained a rank in knowledge(ancient wars). Presumably the DCs here were a lot lower than if I'd attempted knowledge(history) checks for them.

After a long lecture from an obsessed NPC, we all wound up with a rank in knowledge(lintels), which we tried to use whenever possible.

This sort of thing works well during the game, but should probably be forbidden during backstories.

ericgrau
2009-09-15, 12:56 AM
I'd require training for all regular skill boosts and call it a day. Whether you make the players state specifically how they do this or assume it happens automatically as long as they visited a town with enough resources is up to you.

As for spending time studying notes they found somewhere, I don't see what advantage that has over a city library, school or personal research. If you think they should learn from reading not experience points, then you can redo skills that way but it'd take a long time or every old guy will have a ridiculous number of ranks from a lifetime of study. Even at the rate of 1 rank per week or anything an adventurer would find reasonable. Or maybe higher level characters get access to rarer and rarer information, in a Gandalf sort of way. Then you can either assume they figure this rare stuff out automatically between adventures, or make entire quests that revolve around getting high ranks in heal or knowledge skills. i.e., if you get information from this place, you may then level your heal skill up to rank 15. Until then you're capped at a lower rank from the limited information the town has available. Then maybe once they find the special information and study it - if you want - you give them their next level skill ranks ahead of time, rather than having it suddenly ding at level up.