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View Full Version : Contingency and Raise Dead?



Woodsman
2009-09-14, 05:26 PM
This was an idea that formulated in my head today; what if a Mystic Theurge cast a contingent Raise Dead with the condition being that he/she falls to -10 HP or below?

I understand Mystic Theurges aren't the best, but seeing as you need to be able to cast 6 lv Sor/Wiz spells and Level 5 Clr spells to do it, it's the only way without being gestalt.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-14, 05:36 PM
Craft Contingent Spell. Complete Arcane pages 77 and 139. Only requirement is CL 11. Death is a specifically allowed trigger for Craft Contingent Spell, and would presumably be so for Contingency as well.

tyckspoon
2009-09-14, 05:37 PM
It'd work, but really you'd be better off setting a defensive Contingency to keep you from getting killed in the first place. If I were a Mystic Theurge, I'd probably go something like Contingency: Death Ward and then use normal defensive buffs, which tend to be longer lasting, to deal with standard HP damage.

Edit: If you really want a contingent Raise Dead, there is a line of spells in the Spell Compendium called (x) Pact that do basically that in varying degrees. They have some kind of harsh cast requirements, but it's still better than burning 5,000 GP and locking up your Contingency on the chance that something (a) kills you and (b) does it in a fashion that Raise Dead can fix.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-14, 05:45 PM
You're forgetting Mind Rape. Instant access to all cleric spells, as soon as a cleric blows a Will save... oh wait, that's actually pretty hard.
Mind Rape, Genesis, Plane Shift, Summon Monster line, trap abuse, and epic spellcasting.
Step 1) Use Genesis to make a demiplane where time is really fast. All Wizards should already have done this by the time they can cast 9th level spells.
Step 2) Use Mind Rape on a cleric of arbitrarily low level to make him your willing slave for all eternity.
Step 3) Plane Shift him into your demiplane.
Step 4) Use the Summon Monster line to give him level appropriate challenges until he is 20th level and still your willing slave.
Step 5) Have your slave cleric build a True Resurrection trap by the standard trap rules.
Step 6) Research Contingent Lesser Epic Teleport, and set the location to "wherever it is that triggers your True Rez trap".
Step 7) Get killed to test the system. If all goes well you are pinged to your trap, which is triggered and thereby casts True Rez on you with no material component.
Step 8) ???
Step 9) PROFIT!

Can't think offhand of any technical reason why you couldn't pull that trick off - Contingency itself doesn't say for example "The contingent spell must be from the same class that lets you cast Contingency" - but I like my version better for not having to touch MT.

Woodsman
2009-09-14, 05:47 PM
Thanks guys. I just wanted to know if it would work.

Plans for an upcoming session and such.

Raewyn
2009-09-14, 05:54 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but if time is moving really fast on the demi-plane, wouldn't you also be aging just as fast? Or is there a workaround that I missed?

woodenbandman
2009-09-14, 05:55 PM
Spells that would actually work better: Contingent Revivify, Fortunate Fate. Fortunate Fate is a contingent Heal spell activated upon death (it prevents death), and Revivify is cheaper and only works within 1 round of death (and has no level loss).

Glimbur
2009-09-14, 05:57 PM
Contingent Revivify might be better. It's like Raise Dead but cheaper and you don't lose a level. The drawback is you have to cast it the round after the person dies and it is a touch spell... but contingency covers that nicely. It also brings you back at -1 instead of active, but hopefully your party can distract foes to prevent coup de grace.

Woodsman
2009-09-14, 05:58 PM
Contingent Revivify might be better. It's like Raise Dead but cheaper and you don't lose a level. The drawback is you have to cast it the round after the person dies and it is a touch spell... but contingency covers that nicely. It also brings you back at -1 instead of active, but hopefully your party can distract foes to prevent coup de grace.

Who said it was my party? Maybe I'm the DM with dastardly plans.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 06:05 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but if time is moving really fast on the demi-plane, wouldn't you also be aging just as fast? Or is there a workaround that I missed?

If time is moving faster, why would you AGE? there are only two options:
1. You will be under an uber slow effect, essentially making you useless and easy pray. (aka, "frozen in time")
2. You operate at the normal timespeed of that plane. However, when you return you find that many years have passed in the material world while you were away for only a few days.

2 makes more sense, since for 1 you have to alter the very rules of reality for that plane to allow yourself to exist in a slower "time"

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-14, 06:07 PM
IIRC, when you die, all your buffs go away. Including Contingency. So while Contingency Raise Dead upon my being dead is perfectly legitimate, the Contingency spell expires exactly before going off.

Woodsman
2009-09-14, 06:09 PM
IIRC, when you die, all your buffs go away. Including Contingency. So while Contingency Raise Dead upon my being dead is perfectly legitimate, the Contingency spell expires exactly before going off.

Nothing in Contingency's description mentions it ending when you die.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-14, 06:11 PM
Nothing in Contingency's description mentions it ending when you die.

It isn't a function of Contingency, specifically, so much as the condition of being Dead which is the issue... You can't maintain spells when you are dead.

lsfreak
2009-09-14, 06:12 PM
Would just like to point out that if I'm not mistaken, it's meant to be a demiplane where time moves extremely slowly, rather than extremely quickly. I.e. you could spend hours in your demiplane and it'd only be seconds on the material plane.

Glimbur
2009-09-14, 06:22 PM
IIRC, when you die, all your buffs go away. Including Contingency. So while Contingency Raise Dead upon my being dead is perfectly legitimate, the Contingency spell expires exactly before going off.

Where is that rule from, exactly?

taltamir
2009-09-14, 06:30 PM
It isn't a function of Contingency, specifically, so much as the condition of being Dead which is the issue... You can't maintain spells when you are dead.

the rule is that spells which require concentration to maintain all fade the moment you die. and spells in your MEMORY fade when you die (and are restored when you are resurrected)... aka:
1. You cannot use your prepared spells in the afterlife... say, to resurrect yourself, attack things with magic, teleport back to the material plane as a ghost, etc
2. Enemies cannot cast spells that remove prepared spells on your corpse (if they somehow wanted to)

Contingency:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm

"The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to."
Basically the spell was already cast, it is not lost because you have NO CONTROL OVER IT once you cast it.


Where is that rule from, exactly?

My guess is neverwinter nights.

Frosty
2009-09-14, 07:00 PM
Ongoing spell effects which do not require concentration could care LESS whether you're dead or not. Seriously, it doesn't even care that you may not be a legal target anymore as long as you WERE at time of casting.

kjones
2009-09-14, 07:07 PM
Step 4) Use the Summon Monster line to give him level appropriate challenges until he is 20th level and still your willing slave.


One generally does not receive experience from killing summoned creatures.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 07:11 PM
One generally does not receive experience from killing summoned creatures.

1. In PNP DND you do not receive any XP from killing ANYTHING. you receive XP from DEFEATING ENCOUNTERS. All enemies can survive, knocked unconscious, or escape... etc
2. ONLY in core neverwinter nights 1 do you not gain XP for summoned creatures. And in some other games...

Rainbownaga
2009-09-14, 07:30 PM
1. In PNP DND you do not receive any XP from killing ANYTHING. you receive XP from DEFEATING ENCOUNTERS. All enemies can survive, knocked unconscious, or escape... etc
2. ONLY in core neverwinter nights 1 do you not gain XP for summoned creatures. And in some other games...

I think the rule is that if an enemy caster summons a creature, that creature counts as the summoner's resources and does not grant any extra xp.

Of course, this rule gets confusing when you're not actually fighting the caster, or the summon is somehow more powerful (higher CR) than the caster.

imperialspectre
2009-09-14, 07:34 PM
DMG, p.37. Creatures summoned as part of an encounter don't increase the overall CR or EL. Therefore, no extra XP is received.

Rainbownaga's correct that there's some ambiguity as far as what happens if the caster is summoning the creatures that you fight but you don't actually fight the caster.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 07:50 PM
I think the rule is that if an enemy caster summons a creature, that creature counts as the summoner's resources and does not grant any extra xp.

Of course, this rule gets confusing when you're not actually fighting the caster, or the summon is somehow more powerful (higher CR) than the caster.

if that was the case then every BBEG with half a brain would have sent level0 and level1 wizard apprentices with scrolls of planar binding. or at least summon monster V

"sorry, defeating the demon doesn't count, it was a summon"... Besides which, EVERY OUTSIDER, by DEFINITION, is a summon unless you encounter it in its home dimension. And all aberations / undead are created by spellcasters.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 07:52 PM
DMG, p.37. Creatures summoned as part of an encounter don't increase the overall CR or EL. Therefore, no extra XP is received.

Rainbownaga's correct that there's some ambiguity as far as what happens if the caster is summoning the creatures that you fight but you don't actually fight the caster.

I see... so basically it is a question of "when it was summoned" and "when did the encounter start...

Did the encounter start when you cornered the level 1 wizard, or when he summoned a war troll from a scroll? its not like the level 1 wizard was actually a threat.

Basically, this rule is beyond retarded and completely ineffective. You can see how it will sorta make sense if a conjurer is summoning something of his level, but it can also be abused as hell.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-14, 07:58 PM
Why would it be abused? It's not like anybody knows about this obvious metagame concept.

Also (summoning) and (calling) are fairly distinct.

Douglas
2009-09-14, 08:00 PM
The point of the rule is not really "summons give no XP", but rather "spells that summon monsters count just the same as other spells of their level for XP purposes". Whether the level 9 wizard you're fighting casts Cloudkill or Summon Monster V makes no difference to the XP reward for defeating him. If you fight a level 1 wizard and he uses a scroll of a level 5 spell, the fact that he has that scroll significantly increases the danger he represents and how much XP beating him - and the scroll - is worth. Whether that scroll is of Cloudkill or Summon Monster V is the part that makes no difference here. A scroll that powerful makes the wizard considerably overequipped for his level, and that means the DM should adjust his effective CR to compensate, but the exact identity of the spell on it does not matter so long as its purpose is to make him a significantly greater threat.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-14, 08:04 PM
Ongoing spell effects which do not require concentration couldn't care LESS whether you're dead or not. Seriously, it doesn't even care that you may not be a legal target anymore as long as you WERE at time of casting.

Fixed.

Also, time in the other dimension would be running REALLY FAST compared to the Material Plane, so that the Material Plane would be running slow in comparison. IE, 1 year on the demiplane = 1 round on the Material.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 12:12 AM
Fixed.

I'd just like to point out how both are in fact correct and mean the same thing according to American English, as non-sensical as it is. :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-09-15, 12:39 AM
The point of the rule is not really "summons give no XP", but rather "spells that summon monsters count just the same as other spells of their level for XP purposes". Whether the level 9 wizard you're fighting casts Cloudkill or Summon Monster V makes no difference to the XP reward for defeating him. If you fight a level 1 wizard and he uses a scroll of a level 5 spell, the fact that he has that scroll significantly increases the danger he represents and how much XP beating him - and the scroll - is worth. Whether that scroll is of Cloudkill or Summon Monster V is the part that makes no difference here. A scroll that powerful makes the wizard considerably overequipped for his level, and that means the DM should adjust his effective CR to compensate, but the exact identity of the spell on it does not matter so long as its purpose is to make him a significantly greater threat.

point. but it should thus say "summons OR spells from creature abilities, level appropriate gear, or class skills does not count as increasing encounter level"

Jan Mattys
2009-09-15, 02:38 AM
You're forgetting Mind Rape. Instant access to all cleric spells, as soon as a cleric blows a Will save... oh wait, that's actually pretty hard.
Mind Rape, Genesis, Plane Shift, Summon Monster line, trap abuse, and epic spellcasting.
Step 1) Use Genesis to make a demiplane where time is really fast. All Wizards should already have done this by the time they can cast 9th level spells.
Step 2) Use Mind Rape on a cleric of arbitrarily low level to make him your willing slave for all eternity.
Step 3) Plane Shift him into your demiplane.
Step 4) Use the Summon Monster line to give him level appropriate challenges until he is 20th level and still your willing slave.
Step 5) Have your slave cleric build a True Resurrection trap by the standard trap rules.
Step 6) Research Contingent Lesser Epic Teleport, and set the location to "wherever it is that triggers your True Rez trap".
Step 7) Get killed to test the system. If all goes well you are pinged to your trap, which is triggered and thereby casts True Rez on you with no material component.
Step 8) ???
Step 9) PROFIT!

Can't think offhand of any technical reason why you couldn't pull that trick off - Contingency itself doesn't say for example "The contingent spell must be from the same class that lets you cast Contingency" - but I like my version better for not having to touch MT.

What makes you think that the Unwilling Cleric slave lvl 20 will retain his power? If I were a God, I'd definitely stop your wicked plan for immortality by taking the clerical powers off my Cleric as long as he is your slave. I pity the poor guy, and I will gladly take him in my heaven as soon as he dies (probably by your hand, when you see he's not useful), but I would not allow him to be a tool for you to use. He's MY cleric, not a puppet.

At least, that's how I'd play it as a DM...

Friend Computer
2009-09-15, 02:52 AM
What makes you think that the Unwilling Cleric slave lvl 20 will retain his power? If I were a God, I'd definitely stop your wicked plan for immortality by taking the clerical powers off my Cleric as long as he is your slave. I pity the poor guy, and I will gladly take him in my heaven as soon as he dies (probably by your hand, when you see he's not useful), but I would not allow him to be a tool for you to use. He's MY cleric, not a puppet.

At least, that's how I'd play it as a DM...
Part of the MR spell would be to realign his worship with the interests of the caster, probably making the spells come from the cleric's faith in the caster.

That would help stop any rebelliousness...