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Crow
2009-09-14, 07:03 PM
I have heard that even a core wizard can get to the point where they are quite literally untouchable. Not only are they pretty much immune to any attempts on their life by even other wizards, or even dieties, but they can deal death to these beings at will as well.

At what level do wizards reach this unstoppable level of power? And how do they do it? Or is it all blown out of proportion and exaggerated?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-14, 07:10 PM
At what level do wizards reach this unstoppable level of power? And how do they do it? Or is it all blown out of proportion and exaggerated?


A 17th level kobold wizard can go pun-pun.

EDIT: It wouldn't work in core only.

The Glyphstone
2009-09-14, 07:10 PM
^So can a level 1 kobold Paladin, so that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. And pun-pun is impossible in Core anyways.


It's exaggerated a bit, but it is entirely possible - though I don't about killing deities. the problem is that it involves making yourself basically perpetually isolated, hiding inside a personal demiplane and Astrally Projecting only when you need something outside...in summary, you're not someone who's doing any real adventuring as part of a party (I.e, D&D game group), if only because in true Godizard mentality, you literally have no need for other people sucking away your XP and GP. The very nature of its invincibility means that it's pretty much only practical for BBEGs and NPCs.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 07:16 PM
it really very much depends on your DM... also, it helps if he never actually READ the rules for deities.
aka, if you look at your character sheet you will see that you can EASILY kill a deity... except deities are completely immune to MORTALS and only take damage from ANOTHER deity. Every deity "rank" gives a "power at will" which include "death with no possibility of resurrection unless undone by a deity of equal or greater power. And "wish at will unlimited times per day with no chance of perversion and no XP cost" to name just ... well, 2 of the many deity powers they can choose from.

For total ultimate power TM you need to abuse the heck out of the completely retarded and broken epic spells rules. Which make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Also the epic book RECOMMENDS the DM allowing your 21st level characters to ascend to godhood and play on other planes fighting deities, and supercreatures that can eat gods for breakfast.

Also as The_Glyphstone said. to use powers in that way you have to basically play solo with an understanding DM.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-14, 07:22 PM
The standard method of godslaying is the Ice Assassin spell from Frostburn. Creates a duplicate of the god you're going for, with all of its abilities. It costs 1 day, 100 gp/hit point of the target, 20000 gp after that, 5000 xp, and a piece of the god you're targeting; which is easily enough time for the god to catch you. You could subvert most of that with the epic feat Ignore Material Components, but epic is god-level anyway (as previously stated).

oldskool
2009-09-14, 07:32 PM
Wizards are only untouchable due to poor DMing. Of course if you made a wizard who knew every spell, had all the most powerful magic items, and took advantage of demi-planes, magic jar, clones and other extreme powers some might consider them unbeatable. But these things can always be overcome with careful consideration by the PC's. The only time I have ever seen a wizard get out of hand was when a DM ran monty haul style games where magic items and gold were severly out of whack. People just get frustrated :smallfurious: because wizards have options and most people do not want to have to put any imagination into their combats. High level clerics, druids and sorcerers can easily pawn wizards as can paladins due to the fact that they can make almost any save due to Divine Grace. Only fighters have a real problem with high level wizards simply because they lack mobility and are saddled with poor Wil saves. Most fighters excaberrate this weakness by never giving Wisdom the same respect that Dexterity is given as an important stat for fighters to have.

Keld Denar
2009-09-14, 07:33 PM
Its pretty high, depending on the level of paranoia. You can buy a clone as soon as ~3rd or 4th level, acording to standard WBL, which essentually gives you a "free guy", videogame style. At higher levels, you can cast this yourself, storing away multiple in the event of "very bad things". Um, if you want to get really fancy, what, about 4k gold gets you a scroll of Planar Binding, which allows you to bind a Nightmare. Order it to Plane Shift you somewhere, then Astrally Project you onto the Prime. Since AP has no duration, and doesn't cost any cash when the Nightmare does it, you're pretty well set unless you die (ends AP), in which case, hopefully you've aquired more XP and stowed away a couple more scrolls of Planar Binding.

So yea, I'd say about 4th-5th level, if you were REALLY serious about it.

EDIT:

as can paladins due to the fact that they can make almost any save due to Divine Grace.

Who targets saves anyway? Pshhhh. Weak...

Starbuck_II
2009-09-14, 07:40 PM
The standard method of godslaying is the Ice Assassin spell from Frostburn. Creates a duplicate of the god you're going for, with all of its abilities. It costs 1 day, 100 gp/hit point of the target, 20000 gp after that, 5000 xp, and a piece of the god you're targeting; which is easily enough time for the god to catch you. You could subvert most of that with the epic feat Ignore Material Components, but epic is god-level anyway (as previously stated).

Doesn't eschew materials work as flesh has no material cost.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-14, 07:41 PM
Wizards have a ton of "I win" combos, and have lots of spells - most are core only - that make it incredibly difficult to harm them.

You can access astral projection by level 7 (via polymorph and a feat if you're an outsider), or by level 9 (via lesser planar binding), which allows you to adventure without fear of death (just watch out for silver swords, astral dreadnoughts, and soul-sucking spells like trap the soul). Just leave your body in the cleric's haversack, and you no longer have fear of dying. This alone will make you incredibly difficult to kill.

After that, you have lots of spells that treat your opponents' abilities like drugs - Just Say No. Alter self nets you flight, swim, climb, and burrow speeds for 10 min/lvl and negates melee attackers handily. Freedom of movement negates grapples, swallow wholes, and any other spells or abilities that impede movement. Polymorph can net you immunity to various energy types (see fire and cold subtypes), and changes your type to whatever you turn into (nice vs charm person), not to mention granting you automatic first initiative in any fight (with dire tortoise form, that is, if you can get it up beforehand). Iron body for, and I quote, "blindness, critical hits, ability score damage, deafness, disease, drowning, electricity, poison, stunning, and all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration, because you have no physiology or respiration while this spell is in effect." Contingency+dimension door or +teleport can get you out of danger if you word it right. Wind wall completely negates archers. Fog/Cloud/Wall of X spells block line of sight (and often line of effect) to disrupt spellcasting and special abilities. Blur, displacement, etherealness, blink, mirror image, and invisibility grant you practical or literal immunity to targeted effects, or just make you incredibly difficult to hit (since many of them stack, if done right). Prismatic sphere coupled with a domed stoneshape can quite easily make you untouchable (just add in Ring Gates so you can fire off spells from the safety of your homemade bunker). Going incorporeal allows you to Flyby Attack your spells from the safety of a wall. Or the ground. Or the ceiling. Animate dead to surround yourself with an army of literal meatshields to prevent tactics such as charging. You can nab death ward for immunity to death effects through the domain wizard ACF, through research, or via spells like lesser planar binding (or just turn into something that is immune to death effects). Mind blank for [mind-affecting] and divination effects (use protection from evil at lower levels to suppress charm and compulsion effects). Then there's shapechange, for different immunities every round. Spells like rope trick and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion make it quite difficult to sneak up on you while resting. Oh, and don't forget about all of the abilities you can get from creatures you've dominated. And there are plenty more where those came from.

I'm not as familiar out of core, but there you can get spells like haunt shift, which lets you become an object for LOTS of immunities. Celerity (along with core foresight) for another way to nab initiative.

You can even have all of the spells you need to have up when you need them, thanks to handy dandy divination spells that, if properly worded, can tell you everything you need to be ready for each day.

taltamir
2009-09-14, 07:43 PM
there are also bugged spells... planer binding to get a genie... you can coerce it to cast any spell for its freedom. The wish doesn't cost the genie any XP, just because it is a genie.
Bam, infinite free wishes for any wizard sorcerer at a fairly low level. As a bonus, I am not sure about this, but I THINK the genie is the one doing the perverting on a genie wish, NOT the universe... The universe (DM) cannot pervert a genie's wish if the genie itself does not wish it to; Nothing but fluff in itself since the DM playes the genie... but what if you dominate the genie or use some other effect to force it to grant it as you want it?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarbindinglesser.htm
caster level 9 spell. (aka, spell level 5).

Of course. your DM will never allow this, would he?

tyckspoon
2009-09-14, 08:11 PM
it really very much depends on your DM... also, it helps if he never actually READ the rules for deities.
aka, if you look at your character sheet you will see that you can EASILY kill a deity... except deities are completely immune to MORTALS and only take damage from ANOTHER deity.



Erm. I agree there is very little most characters can do to fight Alter Reality or Life and Death, but would you mind pointing out the bit of the rules that says deities are actually immune to non-deific attackers? They get a lot of resistances and immunities, which are bypassed by equal-or-more-powerful deities, but they're not immune to raw HP damage. For that, they just get DR/Epic, and I would hope you have some Epic weapons if you're planning to go god-hunting. Although for sufficiently high Divine Rank gods, the immunities are irritating enough that the easiest way to beat them might actually be to hurl a buffed up charger at them.



Of course. your DM will never allow this, would he?

It doesn't really matter if you can coerce or convince your bound outsider not to pervert your wish- Wish is still bound by the 'safe' list for what it can reliably do. Warding against a perversion just ensures you get "I'm sorry, this Wish cannot perform this action at this time" and a lesser result instead. Strictly by the rules, the worst result of getting early Wishes like this is having your +5 Inherent bonus to stats much cheaper and earlier than you are expected to. Which is very nice and powerful, but it doesn't really break the game, it just makes your numbers bigger so the DM knows to start using more powerful monsters. (Or you can make Epic magic items of unlimited GP value, but removing that bit of silliness is one of the few pieces of houseruling that is almost universal and probably shouldn't be talked about as a serious option.)

taltamir
2009-09-14, 08:20 PM
Yes, the wish fails harmlessly will be the result often, but there is no risk and you can try often, you will soon rule the entire world.

technically, you don't get +5 to everything right away either. The spell posits that you MUST cast 5 wish spells in 5 turns to get a +5. (or 4 in 4 turns, etc). Max of +5... If it wasn't for this specification then nobody would bother crafting tomes of inherent bonuses. which cost a lot of gold and 100 extra XP per wish. (aka, 2 wishes cost 10,000 XP, tome of +2 cost 10,200 XP + ton of gold)

If you got two genies and each cast the wish, in short order, you get a +2 to everything. and so on. you need 5 genies at once. If you have a +1 bonus and get another wish the next day, it will not stack. (question is, will it create a "buffer" on you preventing a wish to DRAIN your stats from working?)...

You can also use it ON the BBEG Without even seeing him directly, he just wakes up every day with another stat crippled :)... well actually you could just wish him DEAD.

tyckspoon
2009-09-14, 08:29 PM
Efreet are the traditional binding target for wishing for 'safe' things, since they can do 3/day. Get 2, get your +5, have one Wish left over. (Suggestion if your DM doesn't believe in 'safe' wishing or Planar Binding- use it to pay the Efreet and wish for something he wants.)

I amend my previous statement: The most dangerous part of easy access to Wish is its function as an adventure-skipping tool, thanks to the presence of the 'transport' option on the safe list. Go anywhere instantly or bring somebody to whatever deathtrap you feel like; that "regardless of local conditions" line makes this significantly more powerful than the other safe choices, IMO, since it can penetrate wards against other teleport spells.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-14, 08:36 PM
Wouldn't you just need 2 genies, since they get 3 wishes? [edit: NINJA'D!]

Also, a few castings of shrink item and one of telekinesis (after a Quickened true strike, of course) can hurl out a few thousand d6s of damage. Even better Empowered or Maximized (yay rods!). Just box up a bunch of shrunken boulders, and have your raven familiar ready the command word to make them blow back up. 1d6 per 25 lbs isn't too bad when you're tossing out 1,200,000 lbs of boulders per casting. Goodbye Pelor, profane god of evil!

FMArthur
2009-09-14, 08:50 PM
Plus, there is always (ok, never, because no one allows it) the Abrupt Jaunt ACF from PHII. Replace your familiar (a useless liability unless specially focused on) for the ability to teleport 10ft as an immediate action your Int bonus times per day. Oh, and it requires you to be a Conjuration specialist (the best school by a preposterously wide margin). You aren't invincible, and this is less effective against many opponents (all of whom are tumbling past the entire rest of the party to take out the wizard first), but a free "no, you don't touch me" once per round is hard to turn down.

jiriku
2009-09-14, 10:30 PM
How to become untouchable:

Much of this has been touched upon, but I love to type, so:

L1: abrupt jaunt if you are a conjurer, also benign transposition to escape melee. Obscuring mist to break LOS from ranged attackers. Grease, sleep, and color spray to hinder attackers. Mage armor, shield, and protection from evil for AC bonuses.

L3 Invisibility, mirror image, and blur grant miss chance, fog cloud, web, darkness, glitterdust, and pyrotechnics hinder attackers, protection from arrows and resist energy offer protection from specific attacks. Levitate and spider climb allow you to avoid attackers.

L5 displacement, invisibility sphere and blink for miss chance, sleet storm, stinking cloud, deep slumber, hold person, slow, and wind wall hinder attackers.

And this is just a handful of spells at the lowest levels. Essentially, every wizard spell except a handful of direct damage and utility spells either offers you a direct defensive benefit, hinders the ability of foes to direct attacks at you, penalizes foes or prevents them from acting, creates proxies to fight on your behalf, or provides you with intelligence about your environment so that you can employ your remaining spells more effectively.

At higher levels these defenses actually become rather superfluous, because a wizard is better off when simply using a single spell to end combat, rather than casting a series of defensive spells that give the enemy time to bring force to bear. In the past, I have soloed encounters +4 CR above my level or made it dreadfully easy for the other players to mop up by casting a single spell such as shivering touch, evard's black tentacles, or magic jar.

Hawriel
2009-09-14, 11:45 PM
Gods are immune to mortals because they are GODS. They wrote the rules. They dont need to bend them like a wizard they can rewrite them at will.

Honesly 'rules' for gods? :smallconfused:

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-14, 11:53 PM
Gods are immune to mortals because they are GODS. They wrote the rules. They dont need to bend them like a wizard they can rewrite them at will.

Honesly 'rules' for gods? :smallconfused:

They have official stat blocks.

If they have stats, they can die.

I treat them as avatars, myself, but them's houserules.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-15, 12:02 AM
Gods are immune to mortals because they are GODS. They wrote the rules. They dont need to bend them like a wizard they can rewrite them at will.

Honesly 'rules' for gods? :smallconfused:Yep. Deities and Demigods. The one book worse than the Epic Level Handbook. The gods are fairly killable with 21st level casting and a bit of time.

taltamir
2009-09-15, 12:09 AM
Yep. Deities and Demigods. The one book worse than the Epic Level Handbook. The gods are fairly killable with 21st level casting and a bit of time.

I remember pointing out that "fact" to people after reading said book... only to be shown why I am wrong. I remember it has a note saying gods are immune to mortals, period.

Furthermore. A god can insta strike any mortal dead without possibility of resurrection, ever, except for a more powerful god...

You are not going to "get" the time slay a god even if you could do it. Not without a large army of epic humans

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-15, 12:16 AM
I remember pointing out that "fact" to people after reading said book... only to be shown why I am wrong. I remember it has a note saying gods are immune to mortals, period.Even if that is so, it just means we need to wait for ECL 24 instead, for Ignore Epic Material Components for Ice Assassin.

taltamir
2009-09-15, 12:24 AM
Even if that is so, it just means we need to wait for ECL 24 instead, for Ignore Epic Material Components for Ice Assassin.

that might be so. I am not actually finding that right now though...
But they do have ridiculous over the top abilities... 20 HD outsider, + 30 to 50 class levels, + all max HD, +immunities to a ton of stuff. natural armor 13 + deity rank, a variety of other AC bonuses, massive damage reduction, massive spell resist, etc etc.

What does ice assasin do that bypasses all deity abilities?

arguskos
2009-09-15, 12:26 AM
What does ice assasin do that bypasses all deity abilities?
It duplicates a god. So, here's what you do. You use Ice Assassin to make a copy of the most powerful god around, which is now under your total control. You have it make you a god. DING! Divine Rank for everyone. :smallbiggrin:

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-15, 12:27 AM
Wizards are only untouchable due to poor DMing. Of course if you made a wizard who knew every spell, had all the most powerful magic items, and took advantage of demi-planes, magic jar, clones and other extreme powers some might consider them unbeatable. But these things can always be overcome with careful consideration by the PC's. The only time I have ever seen a wizard get out of hand was when a DM ran monty haul style games where magic items and gold were severly out of whack. People just get frustrated :smallfurious: because wizards have options and most people do not want to have to put any imagination into their combats. High level clerics, druids and sorcerers can easily pawn wizards as can paladins due to the fact that they can make almost any save due to Divine Grace. Only fighters have a real problem with high level wizards simply because they lack mobility and are saddled with poor Wil saves. Most fighters excaberrate this weakness by never giving Wisdom the same respect that Dexterity is given as an important stat for fighters to have.

Ummm...

Prismatic Sphere+Wall of Stone+Resilient Sphere+Rope Trick+Astral Projection=Invincibility. Seriously, even 9th level spells have a hard time getting through that (MDJ doesn't work on Prismatic Sphere, so there goes 7 spell slots, Wall of Stone prevents mundane travel and resists MDJ/Dispel/AMFs, Sphere resists Dispel/AMFs the same way Wall of Force does, Rope Trick means you can't even find him without waiting 3 rounds or having a very specific abjuration spell active, and Astral Projction says "Hi! You can either kill me now and wait a few rounds while I respawn at nearly full power, or just die and make this easy on yourself").

Paladins? They die. There's spells that do not offer saves. And Shapechange. Any of the Big 6 is capable of putting up a fight against a Wizard, but it is a widely-accepted fact that only the initiative even matters between those 6 classes. Finally, you are assuming PvP-centric balance, which DnD was not designed around.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-15, 12:33 AM
Around the time of contingency (level 11) they get hard to touch, with a metamagic rod of quicken (13) a little harder still and then foresight and timestop seal the deal (level 17).

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-15, 12:35 AM
Around the time of contingency (level 11) they get hard to touch, with a metamagic rod of quicken (13) a little harder still and then foresight and timestop seal the deal (level 17).

Outside Core? 9th level, when they get Celerity. 17th just says "FU" to everyone, as Celerity+Time Stop=Unstoppable combo.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-15, 12:36 AM
Really, wizards are ridiculously powerful.

They were playtested as blasters, but the only thing a wizard does that's less overtly broken than blasting is closing his eyes, sticking his fingers in his ears, and screaming, "I'm ignoring you!"

...Though knowing how insanely overpowered they are, that's probably the components to some horribly broken spell. :smalleek:

taltamir
2009-09-15, 12:46 AM
It duplicates a god. So, here's what you do. You use Ice Assassin to make a copy of the most powerful god around, which is now under your total control. You have it make you a god. DING! Divine Rank for everyone. :smallbiggrin:

wow... just wow, that is such a cheap skill...
Although. The rules say only divinity 20+ overgods (no worshippers, don't grant spells, don't answer prayers, they don't care about material world) can approve an ascension of a mortal. Obeyed by lower gods (who actually depend on worshipers to an extent)

But you could make a clone of a divinity 19 god and have it slay whatever god of lower divinity than it you want... although... COULD you make a clone of a divinity 20+ overgod?

Although, by the RAW, AFAIK every epic caster is an epic caster... the use the same seeds and have access to the same spells.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 12:49 AM
Outside Core? 9th level, when they get Celerity. 17th just says "FU" to everyone, as Celerity+Time Stop=Unstoppable combo.

Level 12: Craft Contingent Spell; craft a bunch of contingent Celerities to a command word with the wording that one will only trigger if the previous one hasn't triggered.

Speaking is a free action that can be taken out of turn order so this allows you to trigger the Celerities whenever you please.


And yeah, in Core, level 9 sees you being able to Lesser Planar Bind Nightmare, which gives you access to Astral Projection, one of the better Core "I win"-effects. Without Genesis, it's not quite as reliable, mind. You have to jump through some extra hoops to ensure bad stuff doesn't happen while you're Projected. For example, you're still vulnerable to deities without Genesis.

The whole "Bad DMing" argument is pretty worn and pointless. Point is, if core spells are allowed, a Wizard is very close to immortality when pulling all the stops. Of course DM can kill any character by saying they die (short of Pun-Pun anyways, but at that point the Pun-Pun player can just become co-DM), but that doesn't mean there would be a in-game entity capable of slaying the Wizard. The only real way to alleviate this is to ban/alter a bunch of spells.

taltamir
2009-09-15, 12:58 AM
just skip the middleman AND stay in core... make a contingency to cast TIMESTOP instead of clerity.
Free action to say the command word, and you got yourself a timestop.

To be fair, a cleric with the right domains can do the same.

And wizard pay for it by being weaker at lower levels.

Basically, of the classes in the PHB only. The weaker you are at level 1, the stronger you are at level 20. and vice versa

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-15, 01:12 AM
just skip the middleman AND stay in core... make a contingency to cast TIMESTOP instead of clerity.
Free action to say the command word, and you got yourself a timestop.

To be fair, a cleric with the right domains can do the same.

And wizard pay for it by being weaker at lower levels.

Basically, of the classes in the PHB only. The weaker you are at level 1, the stronger you are at level 20. and vice versa

Contingency is only level 6 spells and below. Sorry, yo.

Psions can contingency temporal acceleration, however.

Then again, shadowcraft mages can contingency time stop, since they can cast them from cantrip slots...

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 01:42 AM
The whole "Bad DMing" argument is pretty worn and pointless. Point is, if core spells are allowed, a Wizard is very close to immortality when pulling all the stops. Of course DM can kill any character by saying they die (short of Pun-Pun anyways, but at that point the Pun-Pun player can just become co-DM), but that doesn't mean there would be a in-game entity capable of slaying the Wizard. The only real way to alleviate this is to ban/alter a bunch of spells.

Actually, DM can do that too. There's a difference between in-game rules and out of game rules. The DM isn't an in-game character. Players work on a wholly different level than characters. Rule 0 pretty much means the DM can say, "no, pun pun doesn't work that way, and he dies".

Granted, that's about the only way to do in pun pun, but still.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 01:57 AM
Actually, DM can do that too. There's a difference between in-game rules and out of game rules. The DM isn't an in-game character. Players work on a wholly different level than characters. Rule 0 pretty much means the DM can say, "no, pun pun doesn't work that way, and he dies".

Granted, that's about the only way to do in pun pun, but still.

Na. A savvy player can come up with infinite reasons he didn't die, therefore forcing his DM to kill him in infinite different ways until he dies and as human lifespan is finite, they will both die of old age before Pun-Pun dies.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 02:04 AM
Na. A savvy player can come up with infinite reasons he didn't die, therefore forcing his DM to kill him in infinite different ways until he dies and as human lifespan is finite, they will both die of old age before Pun-Pun dies.


Just as a savvy DM can say, quite simply, "Overruled. Any rule you can think of to prevent this death does not apply in this specific instance. Your character dies. No exceptions, no mitigation, no alteration, no prevention, and no return."

This is why out of game rules are different from in game rules. The DM is the final arbiter of all things. The system is designed to give the DM the last word. There is no character build that trumps that. Use of a brute force approach by players (as pun pun is) can inspire the same on the part of the DM. Invoking Rule 0. And before claiming Rule -1? Remember that your proposal involves literally arguing the DM to death.

The only thing that can come close is the player's ability to vote with their feet.

Galileo
2009-09-15, 02:09 AM
Of course, when you do make an untouchable wizard, that's when I put on my pointy glasses, get in my mech and start singing operap. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAlztMvvNkk)

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 02:12 AM
Just as a savvy DM can say, quite simply, "Overruled. Any rule you can think of to prevent this death does not apply in this specific instance. Your character dies. No exceptions, no mitigation, no alteration, no prevention, and no return."

Then you just come up with something else. Doesn't matter how savvy the DM is, you can always come up with something. Sure, he can always deny it, but if you keep coming up with things long enough, he'll eventually cave in. Or hell, you just ignore the spirit of what he's saying and go by the letter.

Like above, death has little meaning to someone who transcends life and death. So nothing happened. Ceases to exist? Doesn't matter, his existence transcends reality so actually, nothing happened again. That doesn't work? Sorry, it already did. :smalltongue:

I mean, sure, technically in-game and out-of-game rules are different, but considering your character can actually change the game world rules, you already broke the 4th wall.

taltamir
2009-09-15, 02:15 AM
what IS a pun pun?

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 02:20 AM
what IS a pun pun?

Pun-Pun (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character_EVER) is basically a level 1 Kobold Paladin that achieves infinity in every regard, including infinite divine ranks.

Note that all of my above statements are just the "Devil's Advocate"-game; it's fun but not to be taken seriously. That said, yeah, it's not really too much beyond Pun-Pun's capability given that he can actually come up with new abilities in-game and such.

EDIT: The link is a bit older post. The modern method of acquiring Pun-Punhood involves being a level 1 Kobold Paladin with maxed Knowledge: Religion who makes the DC 25 check to know about Pazuzu [Fiendish Codex I] and summons Pazuzu to grant him a Wish for a Candle of Invocation which is then used to Gate in Efreeti and produce more Wishes and to gate in a Sarrukh [Serpent Kingdoms] that grants you Manipulate Form-ability which allows you to do anything you want, pretty much.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 02:30 AM
Then you just come up with something else. Doesn't matter how savvy the DM is, you can always come up with something. Sure, he can always deny it, but if you keep coming up with things long enough, he'll eventually cave in. Or hell, you just ignore the spirit of what he's saying and go by the letter.

Like above, death has little meaning to someone who transcends life and death. So nothing happened. Ceases to exist? Doesn't matter, his existence transcends reality so actually, nothing happened again. That doesn't work? Sorry, it already did. :smalltongue:

I mean, sure, technically in-game and out-of-game rules are different, but considering your character can actually change the game world rules, you already broke the 4th wall.

4th wall is irrelevant. The reason that Pun Pun is so widely known is that he doesn't change the game rules. Just the game world rules. Pun Pun follows the game rules. When you try to circumvent that, the meaning behind pun pun is lost.

There is no technically. Pun Pun can make many game rules irrelevant by his design. An attack roll is only relevant if one can attack, and all. But Pun Pun can no more affect rule 0 than he can step off the sheet and eat the DM's pizza.

The overarching game rule here is the one that gives D&D the structure it has. That rule is, "When a player has one view, and the DM has a conflicting view, when all the chips are down? The player loses.

The DM can quite easily, for this purpose, state, "For purposes of this discussion, "Your character dies" can be taken to mean, "The character may have no further impact on the game in any way whatsoever. Further, any impact your character has already had will not affect future actions in any way. The new character creation tools are over here, the front door's over there. Pick one."

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 02:32 AM
Pun-Pun (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character_EVER) is basically a level 1 Kobold Paladin that achieves infinity in every regard, including infinite divine ranks.

Note that all of my above statements are just the "Devil's Advocate"-game; it's fun but not to be taken seriously. That said, yeah, it's not really too much beyond Pun-Pun's capability given that he can actually come up with new abilities in-game and such.

EDIT: The link is a bit older post. The modern method of acquiring Pun-Punhood involves being a level 1 Kobold Paladin with maxed Knowledge: Religion who makes the DC 25 check to know about Pazuzu [Fiendish Codex I] and summons Pazuzu to grant him a Wish for a Candle of Invocation which is then used to Gate in Efreeti and produce more Wishes and to gate in a Sarrukh [Serpent Kingdoms] that grants you Manipulate Form-ability which allows you to do anything you want, pretty much.

Not actually infinite. Just Arbitrarily large. For infinite, see the Omnificer.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 02:38 AM
Not actually infinite. Just Arbitrarily large. For infinite, see the Omnificer.

He actually can generate infinite stats post-ascension thanks to being able to generate his own abilities; generating an ability that states "all my stats are infinite" is a relatively minor move.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 03:21 AM
He actually can generate infinite stats post-ascension thanks to being able to generate his own abilities; generating an ability that states "all my stats are infinite" is a relatively minor move.

Except that Infinite isn't a number. It's a concept. That's a fairly common error in mathematical discussion. Thus, even if someone can choose any value for their stats, they cannot choose infinite, because it's not a value.

Even concepts such as "all" fail to describe infinite. If it has all there is, then all there is can be quantified. By definition, infinity cannot be quantified. It's a qualitative term. Such concepts are on the fringes of advanced problem solving, and are certainly not within the bounds of a simple additive system.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-15, 03:33 AM
3.5 is so damn deep.

Tehnar
2009-09-15, 03:49 AM
I wondering, if we assume no alternate class features, no metamagic reducers and no 9th level spells, what would(could) a wizard do to render himself practically untouchable. I'm looking for purely defensive spells, not ones that lock down opponents. Also I am presuming the wizard will go on a adventure, not sit in a ultra fortified bunker.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 04:18 AM
I wondering, if we assume no alternate class features, no metamagic reducers and no 9th level spells, what would(could) a wizard do to render himself practically untouchable. I'm looking for purely defensive spells, not ones that lock down opponents. Also I am presuming the wizard will go on a adventure, not sit in a ultra fortified bunker.

Assuming 9th level slots are allowed, just not 9th level spells:

Mind Blank, Extended
Energy Immunity, Extended x5
Blink, Greater
True Seeing

Mindsight (through PrC), or Touchsight (through spell that grants psionic powers) or Lifesense (if undead). If none are available, Blindsight, Greater.

That's your basis. Most spells are refreshed every other day. This means that you come out 50% of the time to adventure.

From there, use good defensive limiting spells (solid fog, wall of stone, wall of force, obscuring mist), and you'll survive most things without too much difficulty.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 04:19 AM
Except that Infinite isn't a number. It's a concept. That's a fairly common error in mathematical discussion. Thus, even if someone can choose any value for their stats, they cannot choose infinite, because it's not a value.

Even concepts such as "all" fail to describe infinite. If it has all there is, then all there is can be quantified. By definition, infinity cannot be quantified. It's a qualitative term. Such concepts are on the fringes of advanced problem solving, and are certainly not within the bounds of a simple additive system.

Hence the phrasing "become infinity". Obviously you'll never reach infinity through addition, however you can either generate an unassociated loop that effectively reaches the value of infinity through an unlimited number of iterations with no time spent, or you can just set a value to infinity.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Infinity isn't a number but it's a value. We have an infinite number of rational numbers, for example. That, right there, is a value that is infinite. We also have an infinite number of real numbers and that's a "greater" infinity than the number of rational numbers since they're "countable". I do not think you can really argue a value cannot be assigned to be infinite.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 04:27 AM
I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Infinity isn't a number but it's a value. We have an infinite number of rational numbers, for example. That, right there, is a value that is infinite. We also have an infinite number of real numbers and that's a "greater" infinity than the number of rational numbers since they're "countable". I do not think you can really argue a value cannot be assigned to be infinite.

There are infinite rational numbers. Yes. In this, infinite is a concept, meaning that there is literally no limit to the numbers. A value is set, or variable, but it always is defined. It may even change based on other factors, but at any one point, it's defined. Infinite, by its nature, is countless. It is a concept representing the unquantifiable. If you want to claim that it's possible to have an infinite value, then quantify it.

It's not possible. However large a quantity you choose, infinite is beyond that. Its not possible to define a value for "infinite". Values can be unknown, but they cannot be undefinable.

You can't assign the term infinite to be a value for the same reason that you can't assign roast beef to be a fruit. It makes as much sense as setting your strength to "Q".

Roast beef isn't a fruit.
Q isn't a number.
Neither is infinity.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 04:41 AM
...who's trying to give infinity a value? Infinity itself is a value. You can't express it numerically, obviously; that's its definition. But that does not make it any less of a value.

Cyclocone
2009-09-15, 04:43 AM
Assuming 9th level slots are allowed, just not 9th level spells:

Mind Blank, Extended
Energy Immunity, Extended x5
Blink, Greater
True Seeing

Mindsight (through PrC), or Touchsight (through spell that grants psionic powers) or Lifesense (if undead). If none are available, Blindsight, Greater.

Well, if SpC is allowed, Veil of Undeath shows up Mindblank and Deathward pretty hard.
Also: Greater Mirror Image, Greater Iron Guard, Superior Invisibility etc.

olentu
2009-09-15, 04:48 AM
Well, if SpC is allowed, Veil of Undeath shows up Mindblank and Deathward pretty hard.
Also: Greater Mirror Image, Greater Iron Guard, Superior Invisibility etc.

Ah the good old veil of undeath making one immune to death.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 05:04 AM
...who's trying to give infinity a value? Infinity itself is a value. You can't express it numerically, obviously; that's its definition. But that does not make it any less of a value.

Take a lesson from any professional proof where infinity is involved.

The text used is "X approaches infinity as y nears 4", or somesuch.

When asked, "What is X when Y= 4?" Any mathemetician will tell you, "Undefined". Not "infinity". This is because infinity has no intrinsic value.

Further, in more advanced mathematics, which does deal with the concept of infinity, you can show that 1 form of infinity is greater than another.

Say I have infinite goblins, and I kill 1/3 of them. I've killed infinite goblins, but the infinite that remains is greater than the infinite I've killed. In this instance, we've seen that infinite does not equal infinite. At the exact same moment, the two can mean different things relative to one another. One has a greater magnitude. Since infinity can express multiple nonequal nonquantifiables, and do so at the same time, it has no intrinsic value of its own.

Two pounds of Bricks is always two pounds of bricks.
Forty-seven buckets is always 47 buckets.
Infinite space does not always equal infinite space.

Your point of view isn't uncommon. Many people confuse concepts with numbers. But infinite is no more a value than time is, or love. They are concepts. Infinite represents a limit in mathematics, not a value.

Cyclocone
2009-09-15, 05:07 AM
Ah the good old veil of undeath making one immune to death.

Yeah, Veil of Undeath and Clone+Thought Bottle is like IKEA lichdom.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 05:07 AM
Well, if SpC is allowed, Veil of Undeath shows up Mindblank and Deathward pretty hard.
Also: Greater Mirror Image, Greater Iron Guard, Superior Invisibility etc.

Mindblank has a duration advantage, I believe.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 07:05 AM
Take a lesson from any professional proof where infinity is involved.

The text used is "X approaches infinity as y nears 4", or somesuch.

When asked, "What is X when Y= 4?" Any mathemetician will tell you, "Undefined". Not "infinity". This is because infinity has no intrinsic value.

Further, in more advanced mathematics, which does deal with the concept of infinity, you can show that 1 form of infinity is greater than another.

Say I have infinite goblins, and I kill 1/3 of them. I've killed infinite goblins, but the infinite that remains is greater than the infinite I've killed. In this instance, we've seen that infinite does not equal infinite. At the exact same moment, the two can mean different things relative to one another. One has a greater magnitude. Since infinity can express multiple nonequal nonquantifiables, and do so at the same time, it has no intrinsic value of its own.

Actually, the infinities you defined here are equally large. Infinite Goblins, kill 3rd of them and you're still dealing with exactly as large number of Goblins as when you started. Infinity sizes only vary in terms of countability, which is why real numbers form a larger infinity than rational numbers but natural numbers are the same size as rational numbers. Infinity is funny like that.

That said, Infinity specifically can be used as a value. The reason e.g. proofs don't go there is that they involve operations with undefinable values, such as division by 0, 0^0, logarithms or similar. That doesn't take away Infinity's existent value; indeed, it is often touched upon when calculating limits.

Infinity is defined as "beyond numbers" just like "one" is defined as a singular unit. It's just a matter of definition, and as per the mathematic definition, infinity is perfectly usable. The philosophical definition is a different matter, but since we are dealing with numeric values, I'd assume we've been talking of the mathematical definition all along.

IthilanorStPete
2009-09-15, 07:23 AM
@infinity debate: If you use the extended real numbers (or the projectively extended reals) you can deal with infinity as a value pretty easily. Even if you stick to the reals, just define the abilities as a limit with n going to infinity and you can work with them fine.

kamikasei
2009-09-15, 07:30 AM
Even if you stick to the reals, just define the abilities as a limit with n going to infinity and you can work with them fine.

Or even more simply, "any time this ability is compared to a target number, or any check made using the ability modifier is made against a DC, it is larger".

oxinabox
2009-09-15, 08:06 AM
Craft Contingency helps.
assuming wizard has access to plenty of XP
(Burn a village, no prob bro!)

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 08:49 AM
Actually, the infinities you defined here are equally large. Infinite Goblins, kill 3rd of them and you're still dealing with exactly as large number of Goblins as when you started. Infinity sizes only vary in terms of countability, which is why real numbers form a larger infinity than rational numbers but natural numbers are the same size as rational numbers. Infinity is funny like that.Georg Cantor released many proofs and arguments on infinity, and the uncountable. It was shown that while many things are without limit, some are infinite in more ways. Some are more infinite. However, they are not truly equal.

For example, in a densely ordered number array, we assume that between two values, there is always another value. Between 1 and 2, there is 1.5. Between 1 and 1.5 is 1.25. So on, and so on. There are infinite points on the line, and (via the diagonal method, also released by Cantor), they are uncountably infinite.
However, while there are infinite points between 1 and 2, and infinite points between 2 and 3, there are twice as many directions to take when you look at the points between 1 and 3. It is more infinite. And yet, not. Why is this important? Watch later.

That said, Infinity specifically can be used as a value. The reason e.g. proofs don't go there is that they involve operations with undefinable values, such as division by 0, 0^0, logarithms or similar. An undefinable value is a value with no meaning. 'Infinity' is another term for 'undefinable value', when pertaining to operations that touch upon the infinite.

That doesn't take away Infinity's existent value; indeed, it is often touched upon when calculating limits.In these instances, infinity is used as a limit, not a value. It represents the absence of limits, much as a vacuum represents the absence of matter. A vacuum is not matter however. Whether infinitely large, or infinitely small, infinity is a concept used to describe sets and groups of values. It's not used as a value in and of itself. Unless Pun Pun's strength can be 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and every other integer that exists and is greater than 0, infinity doesn't apply.

Infinity is not dealt with in day-to-day life. The only places it exists is in philosophy, theory, and quantum mechanics. Gravity Wells of black holes, and the like. The only operation that can truly yield a result of infinity is one that produces a value of "undefined". That which cannot be defined is that without meaning. IT cannot relate to the standard world.

By that argument, even if a result of infinity could be applied to a stat, any mathematical operation done with it would be meaningless.
Infinity is defined as "beyond numbers" just like "one" is defined as a singular unit. It's just a matter of definition, and as per the mathematic definition, infinity is perfectly usable. The philosophical definition is a different matter, but since we are dealing with numeric values, I'd assume we've been talking of the mathematical definition all along.

Close. Infinity is mathematically defined as "without limit". A set can be "countably infinite" or "uncountably infinite". That which is countable cannot be beyond numbers. It can be expressed through numbers.

For example:
Countably infinite (infinitely large): All integers greater than 0.
They are not densely packed. 1 is always immediately before 2, 2 is always immediately before 3.

Uncountably infinite (infinitely small): All Real Numbers.
It's not possible to determine the Real number that comes after 1.

For further reading:

Dictionary.com's definition of finite is
having bounds or limits; not infinite; measurable.

The mathematical definition:
(of a set of elements) capable of being completely counted.

Finite, mathematically, refers to sets, not individual values. Why is this important?

Dictionary.com's mathematics definitions of Infinite:

not finite. and
(of a set) having elements that can be put into one-to-one correspondence with a subset that is not the given set.
The first ties into the original theory. While a subset (rational numbers) at any point is smaller than the set.

However, does 1 to 1 correspondance mean equality? Take the Grand Hotel Paradox. Assume there's a hotel with infinite rooms. Every room in the hotel is full. A guest arrives to check in. Even though every room is full, you can easily make space. Move the guest in the first room to the second, the guest in the second to the third, and so on. That leaves room 1 empty, and the new guest can have that. They're not equal. Even with 1:1 correspondance.

Note, in this case, as in all others, we deal with a set. In this case, it's rooms. Before, it's rational numbers, or real numbers. In all cases, infinity describes the lack of limitations of a set, not a value in and of itself. THAT is the concept.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 08:56 AM
@infinity debate: If you use the extended real numbers (or the projectively extended reals) you can deal with infinity as a value pretty easily. Even if you stick to the reals, just define the abilities as a limit with n going to infinity and you can work with them fine.

Ability scores, however, don't use extended real numbers, or even real numbers. Ability scores are not limits. Ability scores are numbers. More precisely, they are non-negative integers.

Primary source for ability modifiers (PHB):
The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability.
Whatever infinity is, it has been established that it is not a number. Thus, you cannot receive an ability modifier of infinite. That means that an infinite stat, were it able to be achieved, would provide no bonus whatsoever to anything related to that ability.

Gnaeus
2009-09-15, 09:18 AM
And wizard pay for it by being weaker at lower levels.

Basically, of the classes in the PHB only. The weaker you are at level 1, the stronger you are at level 20. and vice versa

That isn't even remotely true.

Wizards are squishy at low levels, but hardly weak. Sleep, Color Spray, and Grease are all encounter winning spells at level 1. You don't get the ones that target fort saves until level 3. Not weak at all.

A druid with a pet is probably the strongest single level 1 character, since the pet is roughly equal to most melee classes. A cleric with heavy armor can beat many level 1 characters in melee, and gets spells on top of it (and if we go non-core, his Knowledge devotion lets him melee as well as the fighters all day long. Cleric and Druid both live near the top of the heap, 1-20.

Looking at the other side, Monk is near the bottom at level 1, level 20 and pretty much every level between.

Tehnar
2009-09-15, 11:39 AM
There is Greater Ironguard? I am aware only of the lesser and normal version.

How does clone help keep you untouchable? While it seems like a sure way to keep you alive, you still lose all your gear and a level. It might take a long time after that to get back into fighting shape.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 12:41 PM
Ability scores, however, don't use extended real numbers, or even real numbers. Ability scores are not limits. Ability scores are numbers. More precisely, they are non-negative integers.

That however does undermine your claims that Infinity cannot be dealt with as a value.


Primary source for ability modifiers (PHB):
Whatever infinity is, it has been established that it is not a number. Thus, you cannot receive an ability modifier of infinite. That means that an infinite stat, were it able to be achieved, would provide no bonus whatsoever to anything related to that ability.

Which is why you come up with an ability that gives you infinity in all stats. Abilities specifically break the rules of the game. And since the modifier is always (Stat-10)/2, your modifier is (Infinity-10)/2 or infinity.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-15, 11:11 PM
I wondering, if we assume no alternate class features, no metamagic reducers and no 9th level spells, what would(could) a wizard do to render himself practically untouchable. I'm looking for purely defensive spells, not ones that lock down opponents. Also I am presuming the wizard will go on a adventure, not sit in a ultra fortified bunker.Not Wizard specific, but the current popular method on these boards(thanks to Talic for this) involves a combination of troll's regeneration and some form of immunity to nonlethal damage, combined with Fire and Acid Immunity to prevent HP death, then add in immunity to mind-affecting, immunity to death effects, and similar. IIRC, JeminiZero's Alita build for Test of Spite did this as a Warforged Cleric at ECL 13, combined with Dweomerkeeper, to be unkillable outside of an AMF. Were it not for the ToS rules, she would have been unkillable inside an AMF as well(Initiate of Mystra). The one vulnerability in this build is the Searing Spell metamagic, which deals Fire damage that overcomes immunity, but that's a fairly rare meta from an odd source, and you can generally kill whoever is shooting at you first.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-15, 11:18 PM
Actually it works better if you get immunity from death effects as a living creature ... otherwise you're still vulnerable to slaying arrows.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 11:22 PM
Which is why you come up with an ability that gives you infinity in all stats. Abilities specifically break the rules of the game. And since the modifier is always (Stat-10)/2, your modifier is (Infinity-10)/2 or infinity.

Abilities don't break the rules of the game. If you think they do, would you care to point out the text that allows Ability Scores (and ability modifiers) to circumvent the game rules?

Here's my logical proof for you. Tell me which part you disagree with.

1) The definition of an ability modifier, by the PHb (Primary Source) requires it be a number. (source: PHb, previously cited).
2) Infinity is not a number. (previously stipulated by you)

Therefore, by premise (1) and premise (2), an ability modifier cannot be infinity. Thus, any ability score which yields a modifier of infinity cannot be valid, per D&D rules.

tyckspoon
2009-09-15, 11:48 PM
Abilities don't break the rules of the game. If you think they do, would you care to point out the text that allows Ability Scores (and ability modifiers) to circumvent the game rules?

Here's my logical proof for you. Tell me which part you disagree with.

1) The definition of an ability modifier, by the PHb (Primary Source) requires it be a number. (source: PHb, previously cited).
2) Infinity is not a number. (previously stipulated by you)

Therefore, by premise (1) and premise (2), an ability modifier cannot be infinity. Thus, any ability score which yields a modifier of infinity cannot be valid, per D&D rules.

I'm pretty sure he meant Abilities as in the things that get listed in Special Qualities and Special Attacks, which do actually exist to create exceptions to the normal rules. And it's pretty meaningless to Pun-Pun whether or not his ability scores are actually infinite, as they are arbitrarily large, which looks a lot like infinite from a distance.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 11:56 PM
I'm pretty sure he meant Abilities as in the things that get listed in Special Qualities and Special Attacks, which do actually exist to create exceptions to the normal rules. And it's pretty meaningless to Pun-Pun whether or not his ability scores are actually infinite, as they are arbitrarily large, which looks a lot like infinite from a distance.

I've already conceded arbitrarily large. Eldariel pressed the difference. Even special qualities don't change the D20 mechanic. The sarrukh allows you to give an ability, but if memory serves, the ability has to exist. Thus, without a valid ability to copy, it can't arbitrarily make it up.

Of course, none of this matters, as pun pun will never, under any circumstances, see the light of a gaming table, which makes its hypothetical stats moot.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-16, 12:19 AM
The sarrukh allows you to give an ability, but if memory serves, the ability has to exist. Thus, without a valid ability to copy, it can't arbitrarily make it up.Wrong. Yeah, I know::smalleek: But the Sarrukh can grant "any ability", not "any ability which has ever been printed in any book", meaning that it can grant "I Win: Pun-Pun automatically succeeds ar any action he attempts, whether or not that action would require a roll. Also, any action taken against Pun-Pun automatically fails, whether or not it requires a roll. This ability requires no action and is always on." TO just finds it more fun to break existing abilities than to write new ones.
Of course, none of this matters, as pun pun will never, under any circumstances, see the light of a gaming table, which makes its hypothetical stats moot.You'd be surprised how many threads showed up on the CO boards asking for help sneaking Pun-Pun past their DM. Yeah. :smallsigh:

jseah
2009-09-16, 12:20 AM
The sarrukh allows you to give an ability, but if memory serves, the ability has to exist. Thus, without a valid ability to copy, it can't arbitrarily make it up.

A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it
No qualifiers. Nothing at all apart from this sentence. :smalleek:

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 12:22 AM
Wrong. Yeah, I know::smalleek: But the Sarrukh can grant "any ability", not "any ability which has ever been printed in any book", meaning that it can grant "I Win: Pun-Pun automatically succeeds ar any action he attempts, whether or not that action would require a roll. Also, any action taken against Pun-Pun automatically fails, whether or not it requires a roll. This ability requires no action and is always on." TO just finds it more fun to break existing abilities than to write new ones. You'd be surprised how many threads showed up on the CO boards asking for help sneaking Pun-Pun past their DM. Yeah. :smallsigh:

Yeah, and you'd be amazed at how quickly that character is removed from play. Using pun-pun in character balance discussions is a lot like using a tac nuke in a discussion of the benefits of handguns.

taltamir
2009-09-16, 12:51 AM
biggest problem i see with making a pun pun, since it is possible by the raw, someone has done it already most likely. Your player tries to make a pun pun... fine, as soon as he tries to ascend the first (and last) pun pun of this existence comes and slaughters you, like it has any other would be pun pun. :)