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Urist Ironblood
2009-09-14, 07:57 PM
(Baerstun players stay out)

My PCs are about to investigate the workshop of a mad alchemist-slash-con-man. He's nowhere to be found, but his menagerie of strange creatures is roaming around: a few duck minions that explode for small fire damage when reduced to zero hp, and a Thunder Chicken who does very low thunder and lightning damage when struck. The only hostile one is a cockatrice, but if the other poultry take damage or get hit with an effect, they'll join the fight against whichever side damages them. There are also puddles of potions spilled all over which can push the other enemies to join the encounter.

My fear is that the centerpiece critter -- the cockatrice -- is too scary for a party of lvl1 characters. He's going to hit with his Bite against either the warlord or the fighter (both AC17, I think) almost two-thirds of the time; out of the secondary attacks he will hit better than half as well. Then it's two saving throws until my party's tank or off-tank gets petrified. As near as I can tell, that means that there is about a 13% chance on every attack that the party will leave the building carrying a statue. Five rounds in, they've already crossed the threshold where it becomes a 50/50 chance that someone gets turned to stone.

If I play the cockatrice according to the MM, it should actually try to avoid combat. Any ideas for how to DM this encounter so my players don't walk away hating me?

So far I'm thinking: some suggestive hints like stone ducklings and chickens scattered around the floor, and starting with the cockatrice not hostile but guarding the book that they've been sent to retrieve. That lets them survey the situation and bring all their firepower to bear at once.

NorseItalian
2009-09-14, 08:02 PM
Word of advice, if you want to keep your players out and not let them know what you're planning, you probably shouldn't put the secret in the title of your post...

FoE
2009-09-15, 12:35 AM
The cockatrice might be a tad powerful, especially if none of your players are trained in Nature and can't make the potion from its feathers necessary to turn someone from stone to flesh.

A cockatrice is really more of a darting fighter. It flies in, strikes and then flies away to prepare for another strike. That might also make the encounter tough if you don't have any ranged guys.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-15, 02:37 AM
My fear is that the centerpiece critter -- the cockatrice -- is too scary for a party of lvl1 characters. He's going to hit with his Bite against either the warlord or the fighter (both AC17, I think) almost two-thirds of the time; out of the secondary attacks he will hit better than half as well. Then it's two saving throws until my party's tank or off-tank gets petrified. As near as I can tell, that means that there is about a 13% chance on every attack that the party will leave the building carrying a statue. Five rounds in, they've already crossed the threshold where it becomes a 50/50 chance that someone gets turned to stone.
You know, those numbers doesn't sound all that scary to me. Hitting the tank two-thirds of the time? Yeah, many monsters do that. Five rounds in? Most combats are resolved in three, after that it's cleanup.

This sounds like your basic solo (the 'trice) with a bunch of minions around - and mind you, despite the name "solo", solos-with-minions are not uncommon, and not a bad idea either.

So it's not an easy fight, but it feels certainly doable including taking down the 'trice - just spend a few action points and dailies, and down it goes.

If you feel unsure about the fight, halve the hit points for the 'trice. If you feel unsure about turning people to stone, throw in a Scroll of Remove Condition as loot.

Thajocoth
2009-09-15, 02:59 AM
Cockatrice is level 5. That's 4 levels above the players. That's an inappropriate encounter at level 1. A level 6 party could probably take on things 4 levels above... But at level 1, I wouldn't recommend going more than 2 levels up.

De-level it 2 levels as per the DMG's guidelines to level 3 (-2 to AC, Fort, Ref, Will, and attacks, -1 to damage, -16hp, -50xp). The monster is now within the player's grasp, but the encounter is too easy. (There's only one monster, after all.) At level 1 your encounter XP values should average a total of 625xp (The xp value of a solo one level higher). The cockatrice at level 3 would only take up 150xp of that. I'd add maybe 3 level 1 monsters and 175xp-worth of minions normally, but because they're risking petrification at level 1, I'd drop it to a 500xp encounter... So add 2 level 1 monsters and 150xp of minions. (Or a level 1 elite, a level 1 monster and 50xp of minions, or some other combination that totals about 500xp total.)

Also, if more than one player gets petrified, I'd have some of that poultice made from cockatrice feathers already freshly made in vials they find while searching... Just enough for all but one party member. Petrification at level 1 is very harsh...

Kurald Galain
2009-09-15, 03:41 AM
Cockatrice is level 5. That's 4 levels above the players. That's an inappropriate encounter at level 1.
Yeah, that's what the book says, but "four levels above the players" mostly means a 20% increase to its attack and defense stats, and a bunch more hit points. Attacking out-of-level monsters is not nearly as big a deal as the handbook makes you think.

Sipex
2009-09-15, 10:18 AM
I agree with Kurald mostly, the biggest problem I see with the level 5 monster is how often will your characters hit it?

Most of your party should be able to hit it on a 13 or 14 to give a decent level of toughness unless the defense targetted is it's weak defense or it's particularily strong defense.

Yakk
2009-09-15, 10:27 AM
Yeah, that's what the book says, but "four levels above the players" mostly means a 20% increase to its attack and defense stats, and a bunch more hit points. Attacking out-of-level monsters is not nearly as big a deal as the handbook makes you think.

A> It over-rewards high attack modifiers. High attack modifiers are already a top-notch decision, even against 'even level' opponents. Against +4 level opponents, they blow every other decision out of the water.

B> It it punative towards players who don't have high attack modifiers. A level+4 solo soldier with +2 extra defences from being a solo and +1 because it was heavily armored is going be hit only on a 20 by someone who isn't pouring resources into +to hit, as an example.

C> At level 1, that level +4 opponent is going to have over twice as many HP as an even-level challenge. This falls off at later levels
.
D> Higher level opponents tend to have more ways to screw with players, and players lack the boatload of utility powers (etc) that make that screwing managable.

Doug Lampert
2009-09-15, 11:57 AM
Cockatrice is level 5. That's 4 levels above the players. That's an inappropriate encounter at level 1. A level 6 party could probably take on things 4 levels above... But at level 1, I wouldn't recommend going more than 2 levels up.

DMG, which is relatively conservative about encounter design. It recommends that you not go more than 4 levels down or SEVEN levels up. 4<7. In fact when it comes to levels 4<<7.

Level 1 is a bit different, but not all that much so, you still have 1 daily and 1 encounter and 1 AP each and a substantial number of HP each. There's no big break where level 2 is about twice as survivable like there was in previous editions.

Is a cockatrice an elite? I don't remember it as such. If it's standard then the extra HP for level 5 put it on a level with a level 1 elite. Not all that tough unless it has significant support. Similarly defenses are better than a level 1 elite or solo, but not all that much better.

Burn some AP and dailies and it's down in two rounds. Burn all your AP and dailies and it's probably down in one round, but they're unlikely to do that.

There's only really a problem if they don't realize yet understand the system or if it gets lucky and stones the defender almost immediately. They probably don't have any good ways to boost saves other than the heal skill so that could be a problem.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-15, 12:13 PM
Simple solution, drop a few hp's off, knock it down a point or so to it' defences, maybe similar for it's attack values.

Just delevel it a tiny bit. Bam. Cockatrice that is now significantly less likely to feel overpowering.

Tyrmatt
2009-09-15, 12:38 PM
If you're a DDI subscriber you can use the Monster Toolkit to delevel the Cockatrice as WotC intended. I still find it less than objectionable in cost and statistically, I live below the poverty line on my income.

bosssmiley
2009-09-15, 12:42 PM
Cockatrices, Basilisks, Gorgons, Medusae and all the rest of the save vs. stone/death menagerie are supposed to be terrifying character killers. Killing one of them is the stuff of legends, and a good fantasy RPG reflects this long-standing trope.

Just foreshadow the threat (heh, stone chickens :smallbiggrin: ) and the players have no grounds for gurly whining when they throw themselves into harm's way. The world does not scale by level. :smallwink:

Johel
2009-09-15, 01:13 PM
On the other hand, the Cockatrice was far from scary in 3.5, even at level 1.

An oversized chicken with bite attack, an AC of 14 and weak will save ? Stay away from it, use bows, crossbows or even slings. If it want to get closer, use a "Cause Fear" spell. If it fails, split the group, surround it and kill it before it "stones" somebody.

A fighter with Str 16, Con 14, AC 15, can hit the thing 55% of the time, inflict 8 damage per hit. If he feels lucky, he can even go for a power attack and inflict 10 damage per hit. 6 rounds and the beast is down. With the assistance of three other PCs and if the beast has been wounded by the arrows&stuff, it won't last more than 3 rounds in the melee.

The Cockatrice hits 75% of the time. The warrior will make his save on 65% of the hits. That's a 26% chance of being "stoned". 4 rounds ? :smallamused:

meet shield
2009-09-15, 02:36 PM
your characters have a warlord: taht means probably taht he can make them do saving throws a little bit. the cokatrice need to see you fail 2 saving throws in order of petrify them, doesn't she? And all 4E characters know that when you fail a ST and the effect change is really better to save against the next one.

Also, man, it's tactics. If it's not even possible for the character to fail, wich taste will teh battle have? They will have problems only if go charging without thinking, and if they lose becouse of this they will have no right to blame you.

that said , I don't know the monster and I heard: solo5 elite 1 and many other things.
Assuming it is a solo of 5, wich I find higher probable, I suggest you follow the idea of many others before me (and ones with better english, BTW) and just low its level by 2 as described in the monster manual.

I know that teorically you can go up to seven level higher, but I found that a great challege is 2 level higher, and I reserve highers levels for very climax battle. But, with this monsters, I play as I would in order to kill them, keep it in mind.

Also, 2nd level is still a great boost of power. One utility power, more hp, a feat and a bonus to all defenses and attack rolls. also, magic items.

Urist Ironblood
2009-09-15, 03:57 PM
I think you guys are right. I've been looking at the other side of the fight, and the odds are good that the cockatrice will be dead by the third or fourth round, even if there are exploding ducks and a thunder chicken loose in the alchemist's shop.

Yakk
2009-09-15, 05:04 PM
So, one crazy approach would be to elite-ize the cockatrice.

Turn it into a level 1 elite opponent.

Drop all defences by 4. Drop high attributes by 2, and others by up to 2.

Give it an action point, and +2 to saving throws.

When the bite hits, the cockatrice gets to shift 3 squares. (also see wings below).

Drop attack rolls by 2 (not 4, just 2).

Drop initiative by 3 (-1 from dex, -2 from level).

Drop the recharge and shift on the wings power (I moved the shift to the bite, as it makes the monster more skirmishy).

Give it a reactive bite -- free reaction, when attacked, does a bite on the attacker, once per round. (this is an upgrade for being elite. It also makes the monster more skirmishy).

Reduce damage to 1d6+2 (this keeps the monster's damage output from getting out of hand).

Redo the creatures HP (as a level 1 elite). (HP will go up, but with 4 points lower defences, it will be killed quicker by level 1 players)

Change the petrification to the following:
Slowed -> Immobilised -> Immobilised and Dazed -> Petrified
and apply a -2 penalty to your saves against it. Add a note that if you are currently being petrified, the new bite doesn't restart/double up the sequence (which I believe was true before, but restating it cannot hurt).

This slows down the petrification process, and makes it a tad less nasty: Old chance of petrification was ~1/5 -- new chance is ~1/6. As a bonus bit of nastiness, it also eats up player action economy, as they do things like make heal checks to grant allies saving throws (they need a 12+ instead of a 10+). Players trained in heal should be prompted that they know how to help someone shrug off the effects of something like this. (DC 15, grant an adjacent character a saving throw). And remember that 'bonus' saving throws don't cause "on failed save" effects to go off.

The big change here is dropping the monster's defences by 4. This will prevent 'wiff fests' attacking it. The rest of the changes are in order to make it elite-class: it gets up to 3 attacks per round. Damage output is up, but accuracy is down, resulting in about the same damage flux (which makes sense, as the monster XP value didn't change).

How is that? Lots of fiddly bits -- the goal was to make a monster that is about as dangerous as a level 5 cockatrice, but is more appropriate to fight level 1 players mechanically.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-15, 05:11 PM
Cockatrices, Basilisks, Gorgons, Medusae and all the rest of the save vs. stone/death menagerie are supposed to be terrifying character killers. Killing one of them is the stuff of legends, and a good fantasy RPG reflects this long-standing trope.
You know what's even more supposed to be a terrifying legendary character killer? Dragons. And yet 4E supplies us with several dragons that are not hard to defeat with a 1st level party.

In other words: you're already legendary, regardless of your level, because you're a player character. That's the point.


So, one crazy approach would be to elite-ize the cockatrice.

How is that? Lots of fiddly bits
Lots of math involved, and overall it's about as threatening to the level-1 party as a level 5 by-the-book cockatrice. Those changes don't strike me as particularly necessary.


And as Meet Shield points out - where's the challenge? Do you, as a DM, want the players to always win, or to make it difficult for them? Both are valid play philosophies, but your choice here is significant.

Strawman
2009-09-15, 05:16 PM
Maybe some of those chemicals lying around can help a stoned person. Some sort of clue or a succesful check can reveal that helpful chemical.

Urist Ironblood
2009-09-15, 06:14 PM
Maybe some of those chemicals lying around can help a stoned person. Some sort of clue or a succesful check can reveal that helpful chemical.

I did this already; right now the effect is that when you step into the puddle you are weakened and insubstantial until the end of the turn on which you leave the puddle, and at the end of that turn, any "save ends" effects go away.

Kurald, I want them to be well aware that I might let them all die, and I want them to know that being irrationally headstrong can get them killed, but I also want them to feel like -- if they play their cards just right -- they could still get out of each given scrape with their corporeal beings (if not their cash reserves and items) largely intact.

Yakk, thanks for pointing out that "make a saving throw" does not count against your tally of failed saves. I couldn't find that rule written anywhere and was assuming that having a healer rush to your side was sort of an all-or-nothing proposition (a bad healer could make it worse). Given that mechanic makes them significantly safer, I think I'm going to avoid the fiddling for now, but having the possibility of a three-phase petrification in my back pocket is an interesting one. Thanks!

Colmarr
2009-09-15, 11:23 PM
Yakk, thanks for pointing out that "make a saving throw" does not count against your tally of failed saves. I couldn't find that rule written anywhere

I believe it was introduced in PHB2 as an errata to the saving throw rules.

I don't have the book in front of me but I believe the new gist is that any saving throw made at a time other than the end of your turn cannot count as a failure.

It makes Heal checks, not to mention powers that grant saving throws, significantly more useful.

Khanderas
2009-09-16, 02:29 AM
Just foreshadow the threat (heh, stone chickens :smallbiggrin: ) and the players have no grounds for gurly whining when they throw themselves into harm's way. The world does not scale by level. :smallwink:
This I fully agree with.
Just make sure the PC's got options to do somehting else (or bring in expendable backup).

meet shield
2009-09-16, 07:59 AM
Urist, can I ask you how long have you been a master and how many times your characters were in a really bad situation?'Cause from what you said it seems to me that you're not really going to put them on the line (not that this is a problem, but if it's so, just level her down)

But, hei! Maybe you're not and I tought only becouse my party use to play through think-of-something-or-die situations and fights. So, you know, maybe my perception is alterated.

Another_Poet
2009-09-16, 09:19 AM
My 4e group faced 3 baby cockatrices with Level 1 characters earlier this summer. I assume the DM homebrewed the baby cockatrice stats, but they still were able to petrify us and indeed we lost two party members to that ability.

Our GM allowed us to make a powder from cockatrice egg shell and mix it with cockatrice venom and perform a ritual to return the two statues to life. Of course we didn't know that when we first fought the cockatrices, so we were very worried and truly gave them everything we had. After winning it was our idea to research a way to reverse the petrification (the DM didn't hint at it) but once we succeeded on some skill checks we were able to come up with the ritual, which I suspect the DM had planned. Luckily all the statues were still intact, thank the gods, otherwise returning them to flesh may have had.... side effects :smallannoyed:

I have to give special props to our GM too, because the petrification took several rounds to set in (first turning the feet and legs to stone, then the torso, then the arms and head). It went slower if the character succeeded on a Fort save each round. This really heightened the drama and also gave those players something to do for a few more rounds before they were out of it.

Anyway, my point is this: if 5 Lv1 characters can handle 3 baby cockatrices, then a group of Lv1 characters should be able to instead handle a single normal cockatrice. Maybe tweak its stats a bit, but more importantly, have an antidote somewhere that the PCs can reasonably find/research it.

ap

Urist Ironblood
2009-09-16, 02:04 PM
Urist, can I ask you how long have you been a master and how many times your characters were in a really bad situation?

I am, to put it mildly, a total newb. I've been on the players' side of the screen on and off for the better part of 20 years, though, and I understand "close calls" vs. "dead for a ducat, dead." Still... tonight will be my fourth ever session DMing. The party is enthusiastic and supportive, and I open every session with a segment called "Upon Further Review" where I clarify any rulings from the week before, especially if I screwed them up.



'Cause from what you said it seems to me that you're not really going to put them on the line (not that this is a problem, but if it's so, just level her down)


I'm mostly thinking about our party's tank, who is new to all role-playing games. We're trying to teach her -- through the mechanics of the game -- the situationally appropriate level of paranoia for her character to adopt (she was reduced to 1hp when surrounded by a pack of wolves, and told the cleric "don't sweat it, I've got this" -- but panicked when asked to remove her armor before dining with a noble). The other players would probably take being turned to stone pretty well, but she's still learning the ropes. I don't want to turn her off (although here's a thought: if she gets turned to stone, perhaps she'll be a little more terrified by combat, and a little more eager to accept hospitality from nobles!).


But, hei! Maybe you're not and I tought only becouse my party use to play through think-of-something-or-die situations and fights. So, you know, maybe my perception is alterated.

I'm trying to treat level one as a somewhat "safe zone" for now -- the "think of X or die" fights will be coming soon enough. Once they move into the next area, things are going to get a lot more grim a lot faster:
- Deathlock Wight + Witherlings in a high-ceilinged dark room
- A diseased visejaw crocodile who drags his victims into murky water while ranged attackers take potshots at anyone trying a rescue attempt.
- A room full of thick steam where a terrifying variety of cold-blooded drakes have established a nest; each turn some of the pipes whistle and then scald anyone who is adjacent, and the steam makes even melee combat uncertain.

etc., etc., etc.

But yes, I am still feeling my way through the system. I'm not afraid of making the encounter deliberately difficult -- I'm afraid of accidentally making the encounter much much more difficult than I intended. For example, in one of the first 4e games I watched - I think they were running Rescue at Rivenroar? - there were two unmodified Needlefang Drake Swarms against a party of four level one characters, and the terrain was a hazard to non-flying creatures. The room was a TPK death trap, but the DM dialed back the minor-grab-to-prone attacks and gave the party a fair chance to squeak by.

Since I'm rolling all of my own encounters, I want to make sure that I'm not including anything like that in my adventures.

Urist Ironblood
2009-09-16, 02:11 PM
...more importantly, have an antidote somewhere that the PCs can reasonably find/research it.

Done and done. The MM helpfully suggests that the feathers of a single cockatrice are sufficient to unstone one character. I'm going to stretch the rule and say that there are feathers all over the shop, and enough of them are 'trice feathers to do the job.

Heal/Nature/Arcana check should be sufficient to find out that they have everything they need to solve the problem.