Cleric without a God (3.5)

[Kelunas]

A friend who I used to play DnD with but haven't seen in years has asked me to rejoin his DnD group. The guy is an ultimate example of a Munchkin DM and gaming in his world is hazardous to say the least but he's a friend, I have the time to play both games (I DM my own, much more reasonable campaign) and I take it as a challenge.

I adore my old character from his game (mostly for the insane roleplay that results) but the character has suffered from recent story events that make it pretty much unplayable. I was wondering if anyone knows how I could salvage this character for his game since roleplaying it is just so much fun and I don't really want to roll up a new character for this campaign.

The world is a munchkin version of Dragonlance with ridiculous over the top events and interplanar wars in which Gods and powerful spellcasters of the cosmos like Raistlin battle each other (yeah, I know...)

The character is a Cleric 20 (Human) Lich of Chemosh. He was turned into a Lich because Chemosh decided it would be funny. Here lies the issue, due to insane events, 90% of the pantheon was slain by Chaos (the god) in a fit of deicidal rage. This includes my character's beloved Chemosh. Chaos has also stolen the remaining god's divine ranks, leaving them powerless. He is now the only, all powerful, god. The DM has given me 6 epic levels to match the rest of the party but the gods obviously aren't comming back. I find myself wondering what to do with these 6 levels.

At level 20 with no divine spells (since Chemosh is dead) my cleric was still somewhat competent due to insane epic gear and his undead puppets. My rebuke undead ability still works oddly and I have more than a few necromancy items and some old undead party members who took me up on my offer of "eternal life" (willingly or not).

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The Character:

Undead Human Lich
Cleric of Chemosh 20
Lawful Evil
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 10, Con -, Int 13, Wis 33, Cha 16
Domains: Death, Undeath
Feats: Spell Focus (Necro), Corpsecrafter, Spellcasting Prodigy, Quicken Spell, Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell), Detruction Retribution, Hardened Flesh, Bolster Resistance, Greater Spell Focus (Necro)

Spells and Domains do not work, turn undead works fine. 15 BAB of course.

---

What the hell can I do with this guy ? Ur-priest ? Something else ? He doesn't need to be Max/Min, just something I can work with...

[Milskidasith]

Simply worship the cause of bringing Chemosh back.

Boom, your spells are back.

[Temet Nosce]

Simply worship the cause of bringing Chemosh back.

Boom, your spells are back.

This. Clerics don't actually have to have a god.

[Kylarra]

Thirded (or fourthed etc if I get ninja'd.)

[Milskidasith]

Or even better, get Epic spellcasting and actually raise your god.

[Claudius Maximus]

There's a feat in Lost Empires of Faerun that allows you to gain spellcasting while following a dead god. Granted, it's a completely different setting, but you can try to get that if your DM doesn't buy the cause thing.

[Tiki Snakes]

As above, but also;
Your new goal in unlife is to BECOME the new incarnation of Chemosh. Raise your unholy scion of a dead god to his place, wrest those ranks back from the Chaos God, and craft a dread throne of bones to rule in your increasingly unhinged and delusional manner, and declare yourself to be Chemosh and therefor your own second coming.

[taltamir]

worship your alignment
worship yourself
worship the cause of bringing chemosh back
worship the cause of munchikinism

If you read the RAW of 3.5 in great detail for clerics and arcane casters, clerics do NOT get their powers from their god. A person is vested with divine power either by other clerics via ceremony, or by a god, or by a god's messsenger. Once so vested he can get some training and is now a cleric. A cleric spell casting and divine powers come from WITHIN, the energy for them comes from the plane of negative energy, or the plane of positive energy (while arcane casters all draw on the GOD OF MAGIC who NERFED magic when the last god was killed by a wizard who tried to steal his power!).

If you piss off your god he CAN use his powers to BLOCK you from using your divine spark to gain more spells per day. At which point you STILL RETAIN all uncast spells, but cannot PREPARE new spells. Presumably, if a god has slain your god, he can probably seal your power and that of others in a similar manner.
The crux is, if you get an atonement spell cast on you, the seal is broken and you have access to your powers again, UNLESS your god prevents it. If a cleric of another faith with whom you are in good standing casts it on you, you can convert to their faith and THAT god will unseal your powers.

This assumes you ever had such a seal placed on your powers. Even if so, your goal is now to FIND a scroll of atonement (since its power is self contained), or a cleric who had it prepared and did not use it up yet. Unseal your power, attuning yourself to the cause of your ALIGNMENT. Which is a primal force GREATER than the gods themselves!

[Claudius Maximus]

Guys, there is a big problem with your suggestions:


Clerics of Ansalon function as described in the Player's Handbook, except that no clerics serve a cause, philosophy, or abstract source of divine power. The gods of Krynn created the world and are the original source of all magical power in the world, both divine and arcane.

[Tiki Snakes]

Guys, there is a big problem with your suggestions:



Emphasis mine.

Then, as far as I see it, there are three options.

1; DM ignores that guff, let's him worship the cause of bringing his god back, and/or himself/etc.

2; DM makes him take a feat to gain spells from a dead god.

3; With all other gods dead, and not coming back, Pc randomly decides to worship the thing that killed his God so he can continue playing, or pretty much must basically roll a new character.

>_>

[taltamir]

Clerics of Ansalon function as described in the Player's Handbook, except that no clerics serve a cause, philosophy, or abstract source of divine power. The gods of Krynn created the world and are the original source of all magical power in the world, both divine and arcane.

Ok, first of all, if the god of chaos killed or stripped the power of ALL the other gods that means neither divine NOR arcane magic works anymore. Since arcane mages in dragonlance get their power from the THREE gods of magic (vs one god of magic in faerun).

The sole exception being that clerics of the god of Chaos still have powers. Either you join his ranks, or you are a melee character now... on the plus side, so is everyone else in the entire multiverse with the exception of the clerics of chaos.

This actually makes a very VERY interesting plot twist... run with it... supernatural abilities don't work anymore, etc... you literally have an all melee world with a few HOSTILE clerics of chaos. You could quest to slay them and try to restore your god.

oh, also you STILL have all your prepared spells, you just cannot prepare new ones.

[Claudius Maximus]

It really depends on how the DM is handling it. I could definitely see Chaos giving out the spells, and forcing everyone to worship him to gain power.

The OP's character could be someone who found a way around that somehow, whether it be by feat or by DM fiat.

[taltamir]

It really depends on how the DM is handling it. I could definitely see Chaos giving out the spells, and forcing everyone to worship him to gain power.

The OP's character could be someone who found a way around that somehow, whether it be by feat or by DM fiat.

honestly i am more conerned about the ARCANE casters in the party... they have NO mundane combat abilities and CANNOT get powers from a God (unless he took over as the god chaos AND magic). this makes them all effectively level 20 commoners.

Honestly, I think the DM just fubared his own world AND TPK the party (effectively) at the same time, but I see viable fixes...

My suggestion? DM rules that you broke into epic levels... and are now all GESTALT!
The party gets rebalanced. And its not like you are actually more effective because you are now a party of fighters fighting groups of fighters, level 20 commoners (ex arcane casters), and actual clerics. :) The challange of non magic combat vs magic will be awesome. And combine it with retaining existing prepared spells and items but NOT being able to make new ones :) this is just delicious.

You could work it into a downtime... your characters take 5 years off, retraining in secret base with each other to compensate for the altered state in the world, during which the god of chaos now takes over as the sole god. Do you fight as the underdogs? succumb? awesomeness ensues

[Ozymandias9]

Ok, first of all, if the god of chaos killed or stripped the power of ALL the other gods that means neither divine NOR arcane magic works anymore. Since arcane mages in dragonlance get their power from the THREE gods of magic (vs one god of magic in faerun).

Actually, magic should still function: Dragonlance cosmology includes a rather detailed diagram for the flow of divine and arcane energy. In the post War of Souls revision of the setting, both arcane and divine users are capable of functioning by using those energies themselves in a less refined state rather than receiving them in more refined form from a deity. They are also retconned into being able to do so as far back as the Age of Dream (or was it the Age of Starbirth-- I need to reread the history), but the arts lapsed in favor of the more refined casting allowed with the gods' aid. Sorcerers are refluffed to represent those who do so with Arcane Power (and retroactively identified with rogue mages who did so before the world was stolen) and the setting specific Mystic class represents those who do so with divine power.

Cf. the 2003 Weis and Perrin campaign setting book, and see if your DM is agreeable to you regaining your spellcasting power through some means fluffed out like the Mystic class. I would suggest one or more feats representing your investigation and discovery of the "Power of the Heart" (ala Goldmoon).

[taltamir]

Actually, magic should still function: Dragonlance cosmology includes a rather detailed diagram for the flow of divine and arcane energy. In the post War of Souls revision of the setting, both arcane and divine users are capable of functioning by using those energies themselves in a less refined state rather than receiving them in more refined form from a deity. They are also retconned into being able to do so as far back as the Age of Dream (or was it the Age of Starbirth-- I need to reread the history), but the arts lapsed in favor of the more refined casting allowed with the gods' aid. Sorcerers are refluffed to represent those who do so with Arcane Power (and retroactively identified with rogue mages who did so before the world was stolen) and the setting specific Mystic class represents those who do so with divine power.

Cf. the 2003 Weis and Perrin campaign setting book, and see if your DM is agreeable to you regaining your spellcasting power through some means fluffed out like the Mystic class. I would suggest one or more feats representing your investigation and discovery of the "Power of the Heart" (ala Goldmoon).

ok, this still means that arcane casters are now casting WITHOUT the gods aid, for the first time in their lives... How many levels of caster level do you think they should lose?

[Elfin]

honestly i am more conerned about the ARCANE casters in the party... they have NO mundane combat abilities and CANNOT get powers from a God (unless he took over as the god chaos AND magic). this makes them all effectively level 20 commoners.

Honestly, I think the DM just fubared his own world AND TPK the party (effectively) at the same time, but I see viable fixes...

My suggestion? DM rules that you broke into epic levels... and are now all GESTALT!
The party gets rebalanced. And its not like you are actually more effective because you are now a party of fighters fighting groups of fighters, level 20 commoners (ex arcane casters), and actual clerics. :) The challange of non magic combat vs magic will be awesome. And combine it with retaining existing prepared spells and items but NOT being able to make new ones :) this is just delicious.

You could work it into a downtime... your characters take 5 years off, retraining in secret base with each other to compensate for the altered state in the world, during which the god of chaos now takes over as the sole god. Do you fight as the underdogs? succumb? awesomeness ensues

I'd play this. :smallbiggrin:
Awesomeness indeed.

[Kelunas]

Your new goal in unlife is to BECOME the new incarnation of Chemosh. Raise your unholy scion of a dead god to his place, wrest those ranks back from the Chaos God, and craft a dread throne of bones to rule in your increasingly unhinged and delusional manner, and declare yourself to be Chemosh and therefor your own second coming.

I wholehardely approve of the idea and is exactly the kind of delusional idea my character would aspire to.


About the Campaign:
I'll try to clarify some of the oddities of the DM's setting.

- The three gods of arcane magic: Solinari (Good Magic) Lunitari (Neutral Magic) and Nuitari (Evil Magic) have fled to Faerun to avoid Chaos... Chaos doesn't seem to care and thus ignores them.

- The following gods remain "alive" but are now simply mortals: Gilean, Zivilyn, Takhisis (who is temporarily good-aligned due to the actions of the DM's character) and Mina.

- In accordance to the Dragonlance setting, the DM rules that Divine and Arcane magic comes from the gods and thus you cannot worship an alignment.

- Chaos's deicidal rampage (summed up quickly):
Chaos has had enough of the material plane and it's creatures, he wants to destroy everything and start anew. He was bound however by a divine contract with one of the DM's characters (a metallic dragon) preventing him from acting. Chaos formed a massive army to destroy the contract and free himself. All the gods (and our unfortunate lvl 20 party) fought in this war on the outer planes and, well, lost. In the battle, Chaos slew all but four gods (the magic gods didn't participate) and then offered a truce. He would not destroy the entire world in exchange for their power and that they would stop interferring. Chaos also said he doesn't care about worshippers due to his new power and actually slays anyone who prays to him (he's kinda chaotic...)

The three arcane gods are rather nervous about Chaos and thus only grant arcane spells to a select few and, even then, they are limited since these three don't want to attract too much attention (arcane casters find several schools of magic denied to them and casting difficult). The only arcane caster in the party is the Sorceress Succubus who draws her power... elsewhere...

- My last prepared spells were spent during that final battle on the outer planes, thus I'm running on empty.

- Obviously he decided he wanted to nerf the party to some extent but he encourages me to find a way to regain some lost power, something my trigger-happy lich obviously seeks.



You could work it into a downtime... your characters take 5 years off, retraining in secret base with each other to compensate for the altered state in the world, during which the god of chaos now takes over as the sole god. Do you fight as the underdogs? succumb? awesomeness ensues

Already underway, we literally have an underground base built in the sewer system of a major city we used to control before the fall. The world itself is a devastated apocalyptic wasteland with chaotic storms swirling about, montrous abberations and aimless, wandering undead, perplexed by the destruction of their dark god.

Me and the DM agreed that my lich had, after the war and loss of his deity, set off for several years to look into restoring Chemosh, finding a new source of power to avenge Chemosh or discover a method to take over the duties of his dark god...

I guess I'll go with the flow for a while and see what I can learn. After all, a lich with a long-term goal is a terrifying thing...

[taltamir]

this sounds really really cool...
I wasn't aware of the full setup so i assumed he just had the gods kill each other. but as it is, things actually make SENSE...


I guess I'll go with the flow for a while and see what I can learn. After all, a lich with a long-term goal is a terrifying thing...
Very much so... you could take up a new character and have your lich become a major NPC... Or maybe have the entire party hole down and try to survive.. maybe a game set 100 years in the future? some of the part members are still around, others have been replace by successors / descendants / unrelated dudes of awesomeness. etc... there is a lot of ways you can play this.

[Bakkan]

I have to say that in your position I would definitely try to use Ur-priest somehow. Maybe ask your DM to allow you to exchange some of your cleric levels for Ur-priest levels. Basically you will be stealing the raw power of Chaos in order to resurrect one of his rivals.

I think the fluff and RP opportunities would be amazing, and allows for an excellent plot hook when (not if) Chaos realizes what is going on. Perhaps every time you cast an Ur-priest spell, the DM rolls a chance in secret (5% maybe?) that Chaos takes some notice. Every five times he notices, a mid-level cleric of Chaos is sent with some minions to kill or capture you. Every twenty-five times he notices, a Paladin of Slaughter (or some other champion of Chaos) is dispatched with orders to kill you painfully. Once he has taken notice one or two hundred times, Chaos himself will step in and attempt to destroy you himself. By this time, hopefully, you have gathered enough power to face him toe-to-toe or have raised your dead god to fight Chaos (with you lending appropriate aid).

As far as a build goes, from a min/max perspective I would try to get as many levels of cleric replaced with Ur-priest as possible.

[DragoonWraith]

Ur-Priest is definitely the answer here. Steal your spells from Chaos.

[Ozymandias9]

ok, this still means that arcane casters are now casting WITHOUT the gods aid, for the first time in their lives... How many levels of caster level do you think they should lose?

A good question! There's little firm answer from the fluff or crunch: too long in between books and no coverage in the setting description. Personally, it would mostly be where I wanted the party in terms of power level.

Keep in mind, if we add in all the novel fluff, they might be able to leech power out of old magical items.



Here's an idea. You DM is actively asking you to find a way to restore your power. It was never really clarified what "the key" was, but it certainly did wonders for Rastlin. My interpretation is that since, with it, he was able to challenge a god, it might have been the capacity to refine the mystical energies himself. If it could function for the divine energies of the setting as well, you might be able to gather the energy yourself in the same refined state that the gods provide it.
You said the five-headed b*@$# was still around. She might be able to help you out with that. If Paladine's mortal incarnation is still around (Githonas? is that right?) might also be able to help.

[Cyclocone]

Actually, Ur-Priest would be kind of problematic, since your lich only has 13 INT.
Maybe if you could somehow retrain all that WIS into INT; but at that point, you might aswell retrain into Psion (if they exist in DL) or Druid (if they can still cast, not familiar with DL) or somthing else.

[olentu]

I think that some of this stuff was covered in the age of mortals book. I know I remember some stuff about draining magic items and there might be some stuff about the whole mysticism and sorcery that people did when the gods were gone.

Edit: Ur-Priest is a wis based caster if I remember correctly. Perhaps it is the archivist that is being thought of.

[DragoonWraith]

Actually, Ur-Priest would be kind of problematic, since your lich only has 13 INT.
Maybe if you could somehow retrain all that WIS into INT; but at that point, you might aswell retrain into Psion (if they exist in DL) or Druid (if they can still cast, not familiar with DL) or somthing else.
Ur-Priests have Wis-based casting. They don't need Int for anything but skills (the skill reqs are intense, but not for a level 20 character).

[taltamir]

get a wish somehow, wish to be a different type of caster. (aka, retrain)

[Foryn Gilnith]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123482 has many shenanigans to regain spellcasting. It's for arcanes, mind you, but it ought to be relevant enough.

[sofawall]

Guys, there is a big problem with your suggestions:

Thank you, as someone who's worked with Dragonlance, I was thinking "Man, no one noticed?"

Claudius did not disappoint.

[Doc Roc]

Thank you, as someone who's worked with Dragonlance, I was thinking "Man, no one noticed?"

Claudius did not disappoint.

He ain't Maximus just fo' show. :)

[Soras Teva Gee]

Cf. the 2003 Weis and Perrin campaign setting book, and see if your DM is agreeable to you regaining your spellcasting power through some means fluffed out like the Mystic class. I would suggest one or more feats representing your investigation and discovery of the "Power of the Heart" (ala Goldmoon).

Doesn't the book have a fairly defined way to convert between the classes in it just as a whenever kinda thing?

[ericgrau]

I think a godless cleric is just a cop out. Mostly because it removes the fun of a church's god dying and all the clerics losing their powers :smalltongue:. But on a more practical note it gives less to RP. Maybe that's a good thing, depending on your campaign setting and tolerance for the blabber. But in certain settings it just shouldn't be allowed. Also watch for attempts by players using it to pick any domains they want.

[Ozymandias9]

Doesn't the book have a fairly defined way to convert between the classes in it just as a whenever kinda thing?

I honestly don't remember; haven't touched it in a couple years. It should be in one of the piles of books at home though. I can try looking it sometime tonight.

[Vizzerdrix]

So the gods of Magic fled to Faerun? Umm... Follow them? Maybe see if you can find some way to bleed the shadow weave from one realm to another? If you can get to Faerun, Lantaan gnomes could teach you how to make non magical devices that mimic spells (Gnome Articifer PrC).