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EnnPeeCee
2009-09-15, 12:42 AM
So, am I crazy for thinking that it would be fun to run a campaign with no magic? I'm talking about no spells, psionics, spell-like abilities, enchanted items, or anything else "magical".

I was thinking that I would introduce different qualities to weapons and armor, as a somewhat pseudo-enchantment, so there would still be fairly good equipment to pick up and buy.

I was also wondering what restrictions to use. For example, ranger cast spells, so do you throw the class out entirely? Do you rip the spellcasting off of it and leave it how it is? Or would you try to tacking something new on to make up for the loss? There are a bunch of classes that would be effected by that.



Or am I going about this all wrong?

Ganurath
2009-09-15, 01:01 AM
So, am I crazy for thinking that it would be fun to run a campaign with no magic? I'm talking about no spells, psionics, spell-like abilities, enchanted items, or anything else "magical".

I was thinking that I would introduce different qualities to weapons and armor, as a somewhat pseudo-enchantment, so there would still be fairly good equipment to pick up and buy.

I was also wondering what restrictions to use. For example, ranger cast spells, so do you throw the class out entirely? Do you rip the spellcasting off of it and leave it how it is? Or would you try to tacking something new on to make up for the loss? There are a bunch of classes that would be effected by that.



Or am I going about this all wrong?1. Rangers and Paladins have noncaster varient rules in both Complete Warrior (special abilities) and Complete Champion (bonus feats) supplements.

2. A lot of magic item enchantments could by made functionally identical to mundance craftsmanship enhancements. Enhancement bonuses, Keen, Shadow... Use your judgement. I suggest increasing the Craft speed for Extraordinary Items, though.

Tempest Fennac
2009-09-15, 01:04 AM
It would probably be a good idea to boost the Heal, Alchemy and Herbalist skills while homebrewing non-magic healing items (along with some which can emulate some spells). If you need suggestions for items, I'd be happy to help you out with making them.

Kylarra
2009-09-15, 01:04 AM
Obligatory reference towards healing issues if you play with an overarching plotline. If you're just sandboxing then taking a week or so between each battle is less critical.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 01:08 AM
I'm playing such a campaign right now. You can check my signature for journal (we're actually having a new session today). As you already touched upon, yeah, some rules need to be altered for it to work out, but it can be a fine experience with the alterations. First:

1. Armor/Weapon Levels: You would do well indeed to include multiple levels of non-magical weapon and armor enhancements. Everyone has Mw. both on level 3 and Adamantine/Mithril around level 6. Stuff like Fortifications, Light Armor, etc. are in no ways magical and could offer various customization options available to each piece of armor you buy, and going beyond basic Mw. weapons with sharper weapons dealing more damage, weapons better suited for crits, weapons built for faster hits and so on keeps the variety in equipment without including magic.

I'm actually a bit disappointed that standard D&D does not include too many non-magical weapon enhancements. Take a look at Crystalkeep Equipment Index (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) for various materials and such you can include though. It's worth noting that the base +1 - +5 enhancements can just as easily be different levels of craftmanship as they can be magic.

2. AC Bonuses: You'll need some bonuses to AC across the board. I've found applying half the character level (or BAB) to AC as a Dodge-bonus to work pretty well. Normally you get your AC from variety of sources in Deflection, Natural Armor, Armor Enhancement, Shield Enhancement and Misc (like Insight, Morale, etc.) so it should be no surprise that when magic is removed, AC suddenly becomes almost impossible to pump. So yeah, some sort of scaling Dodge-bonus is almost a must.

3. Healing: I suggest some variant other than HP. I'm personally using slightly modified Vitality Point/Wound Point system and it's working rather well in the game. Mostly the fact that healing is hard doesn't go well with characters taking half their HP worth of damage every fight 'cause that means you can't really fight more than once a week or so.

Vitality Point/Wound Point system offers you Vitality Points that aren't really serious injuries, but rather represent your capability to avoid injuries, so as long as you don't take Wound Point damage, you'll be fine. Then there are Wound Points which don't get damaged often, but when they do (criticals, running out of VP), healing it up will take a while. This means that the injury-system is still there, but healing between all encounters doesn't take forever.

WPs also offer an interesting chance of enabling limb-damage as WPs present sound hits so either offering called shots or rolling randomally for where you hit when dealing WP damage gives an interesting aspect the game is normally missing. This is especially true since there is always the chance of a critical and WP damage at any point.

Also, we make "half your VP" count you as Fatigued and 0 VP count you as Exhausted. It just makes sense that getting beat up wears you down. I like how all this keeps the "Heal"-skill useful while not slowing the adventuring down to a crawl.


And yeah, many smaller things like enabling taking Alchemy without spellcasting (since the alchemical items are cool), making Poisons relevant, and such really help. I've found that Tome of Battle works really well in such systems.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-15, 01:09 AM
1. Rangers and Paladins have noncaster varient rules in both Complete Warrior (special abilities) and Complete Champion (bonus feats) supplements.

2. A lot of magic item enchantments could by made functionally identical to mundance craftsmanship enhancements. Enhancement bonuses, Keen, Shadow... Use your judgement. I suggest increasing the Craft speed for Extraordinary Items, though.

True, forgot about those variants. But there are quite a few semi-casters in other books. Although, there would be no reason to take one of those over a standard non-caster if you didn't get the casting abilities. K, that problem is solved.

And yeah, there would definitely be some materials and things you could do to weapons to add enchantment-like abilities to them.

The main thing I'm worrying about is really screwing up the balance between classes by doing this (not that there is any now).

Edit:

It would probably be a good idea to boost the Heal, Alchemy and Herbalist skills while homebrewing non-magic healing items (along with some which can emulate some spells). If you need suggestions for items, I'd be happy to help you out with making them.

Obligatory reference towards healing issues if you play with an overarching plotline. If you're just sandboxing then taking a week or so between each battle is less critical.

Yep, healing does seem to pose a problem. I'll have to look into what to do for that. Non-magic means of healing is a definite possibility.


I'm playing such a campaign right now. You can check my signature for journal (we're actually having a new session today). As you already touched upon, yeah, some rules need to be altered for it to work out, but it can be a fine experience with the alterations. First:

1. Armor/Weapon Levels: You would do well indeed to include multiple levels of non-magical weapon and armor enhancements. Everyone has Mw. both on level 3 and Adamantine/Mithril around level 6. Stuff like Fortifications, Light Armor, etc. are in no ways magical and could offer various customization options available to each piece of armor you buy, and going beyond basic Mw. weapons with sharper weapons dealing more damage, weapons better suited for crits, weapons built for faster hits and so on keeps the variety in equipment without including magic.

I'm actually a bit disappointed that standard D&D does not include too many non-magical weapon enhancements. Take a look at Crystalkeep Equipment Index (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) for various materials and such you can include though. It's worth noting that the base +1 - +5 enhancements can just as easily be different levels of craftmanship as they can be magic.

2. AC Bonuses: You'll need some bonuses to AC across the board. I've found applying half the character level (or BAB) to AC as a Dodge-bonus to work pretty well. Normally you get your AC from variety of sources in Deflection, Natural Armor, Armor Enhancement, Shield Enhancement and Misc (like Insight, Morale, etc.) so it should be no surprise that when magic is removed, AC suddenly becomes almost impossible to pump. So yeah, some sort of scaling Dodge-bonus is almost a must.

3. Healing: I suggest some variant other than HP. I'm personally using slightly modified Vitality Point/Wound Point system and it's working rather well in the game. Mostly the fact that healing is hard doesn't go well with characters taking half their HP worth of damage every fight 'cause that means you can't really fight more than once a week or so.

Vitality Point/Wound Point system offers you Vitality Points that aren't really serious injuries, but rather represent your capability to avoid injuries, so as long as you don't take Wound Point damage, you'll be fine. Then there are Wound Points which don't get damaged often, but when they do (criticals, running out of VP), healing it up will take a while. This means that the injury-system is still there, but healing between all encounters doesn't take forever.

WPs also offer an interesting chance of enabling limb-damage as WPs present sound hits so either offering called shots or rolling randomally for where you hit when dealing WP damage gives an interesting aspect the game is normally missing. This is especially true since there is always the chance of a critical and WP damage at any point.

Also, we make "half your VP" count you as Fatigued and 0 VP count you as Exhausted. It just makes sense that getting beat up wears you down. I like how all this keeps the "Heal"-skill useful while not slowing the adventuring down to a crawl.


And yeah, many smaller things like enabling taking Alchemy without spellcasting (since the alchemical items are cool), making Poisons relevant, and such really help. I've found that Tome of Battle works really well in such systems.

I'm glad to see that this is is actually done.
As for the Vitality Points and Wound Points, that's actually almost exactly what I was thinking about using. Are there rules written out for that anywhere?

ericgrau
2009-09-15, 01:29 AM
It is a balancing mess unless you find a way to replace those magic item bonuses. Stats (up to +6, plus the +1 every 4 levels), AC (1/4 level touch, 1/2 level non-touch, +1/4 level non-touch if using a shield), weapon enchantments (+1 AB & dmg or +1d6 dmg), skill bonuses (+5/+10/+15), etc. And spells solve a lot of utility problems that now you'll need to find other ways to handle.

JonestheSpy
2009-09-15, 01:35 AM
And spells solve a lot of utility problems that now you'll need to find other ways to handle.

And now ladies and gentlemen, the Rogue.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-15, 01:35 AM
And now ladies and gentlemen, the Rogue.

Rogues can fly?

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-15, 01:41 AM
It is a balancing mess unless you find a way to replace those magic item bonuses. Stats (up to +6, plus the +1 every 4 levels), AC (1/4 level touch, 1/2 level non-touch, +1/4 level non-touch if using a shield), weapon enchantments (+1 AB & dmg or +1d6 dmg), skill bonuses (+5/+10/+15), etc. And spells solve a lot of utility problems that now you'll need to find other ways to handle.
Yeah, some of those would need a new means to boost them.


And now ladies and gentlemen, the Rogue.
Haha, indeed. Skill-monkeys might actually see some use.


Also, when I say no magic, I don't necessarily mean nothing cool. It'll still be a fantasy game after all, so having spectacular items and abilities isn't a problem. For example, while the fly spell is no longer an option, perhaps there could be some kind of cape that lets characters glide.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 01:55 AM
Again, I'll say "Tome of Battle". It's really better built for no-magic than Core and includes a ton of "cool" without much "magic" (though you'd have to cut out the supernatural maneuvers of Shadow Hand & Desert Wind, and maybe the healing of Devoted Spirit though if you limit them to healing Vitality Points, they sorta make sense).

But yeah, the Dodge-bonus should stand. As for VP/WP, they are in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm), but we are using a modified version 'cause we find that the basic rules don't fully utilize the potential the rules have (I'm going to try and spell out the changes we're using in the journal at some point; basically though, what I stated already - fatigue at ½ VP, exhaustion at 0 VP, possible limb damage at WP).

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-15, 02:14 AM
Again, I'll say "Tome of Battle". It's really better built for no-magic than Core and includes a ton of "cool" without much "magic" (though you'd have to cut out the supernatural maneuvers of Shadow Hand & Desert Wind, and maybe the healing of Devoted Spirit though if you limit them to healing Vitality Points, they sorta make sense).

But yeah, the Dodge-bonus should stand. As for VP/WP, they are in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm), but we are using a modified version 'cause we find that the basic rules don't fully utilize the potential the rules have (I'm going to try and spell out the changes we're using in the journal at some point; basically though, what I stated already - fatigue at ½ VP, exhaustion at 0 VP, possible limb damage at WP).

I just looked over the vp/wp system, and it does look like it would work very well. The only thing I noticed that seemed to be a little strange was crits doing their damage to the wound points automatically. Seems to me like that makes characters way too vulnerable. Do you use that part of it?

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 02:18 AM
I just looked over the vp/wp system, and it does look like it would work very well. The only thing I noticed that seemed to be a little strange was crits doing their damage to the wound points automatically. Seems to me like that makes characters way too vulnerable. Do you use that part of it?

That's the key part. It means every attack can be a sound hit. It's just unlikely. Note how the system mitigates the damage those crits do; they aren't doubled and stuff like Sneak Attack only deals 1 damage per die and so on. Also note how a character reduced to 0 Wound Points doesn't automatically die.

But yeah, the whole "a lowly Goblin skewered you with a spear"-thing adds a whole different dimension to the game where there is a difference between a hit and a glancing blow. Basically, the "instant death" effectively never happens, but the fact that a lucky blow can really inconvenience you makes even the lowly adversaries relevant.

Fishy
2009-09-15, 02:22 AM
The UA Base Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) rule is a good way to let your characters avoid getting hit without a Christmas-tree worth of magical assistance.

If you'd like to use that and still make wearing armor relevant, (because it's cool), there's the Armor As Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) rule, also from UA.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-15, 02:22 AM
That's the key part. It means every attack can be a sound hit. It's just unlikely. Note how the system mitigates the damage those crits do; they aren't doubled and stuff like Sneak Attack only deals 1 damage per die and so on. Also note how a character reduced to 0 Wound Points doesn't automatically die.

But yeah, the whole "a lowly Goblin skewered you with a spear"-thing adds a whole different dimension to the game where there is a difference between a hit and a glancing blow.

Huh, alrighty then. I'll have to bring up these ideas with the group I play with to see if I should even begin working on balancing some of this stuff out.

Bah, who am I kidding? I'll work on it even if I'm not actually going to use it.

Edit:

The UA Base Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) rule is a good way to let your characters avoid getting hit without a Christmas-tree worth of magical assistance.

If you'd like to use that and still make wearing armor relevant, (because it's cool), there's the Armor As Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) rule, also from UA.
Ah, yes I was planning on using something like the DR armor one, but didn't realize that there was the base AC bonus variant all layed out like that.

I should spend some time looking through all of the variants in there...

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 02:24 AM
If you'd like to use that and still make wearing armor relevant, (because it's cool), there's the Armor As Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) rule, also from UA.

I suggest alterations to this rule though. As written, it lowers the armor bonus so much that in a no-magic world, it effectively makes armor trivial as anyone hits anyone anyways. So instead, I suggest giving the DR values as a bonus.

Given that DR doesn't apply to criticals anyways, it's hardly overpowered but does give you a really nice extra layer of protection (just remember to make special material armors like Adamantine and Oerthblood to add onto that DR). That said, I still prefer light armor for mobility and stealth myself.

Kosjsjach
2009-09-15, 02:30 AM
I'm surprised no-one's said it yet, but you might want to look into using another system. Magic is fundamentally crucial to how everything in D&D works. Sure, you can find work-arounds, but it seems haphazard.

I'd love to advise you further on this point, but the truth is I don't have any experience with any other system. I've tried to familiarize myself with GURPS, but as you've probably heard, the learning curve is pretty steep. You might want to take a glance at d20 Modern or something similar; if I understand things correctly, it has similar mechanics so it shouldn't be too hard to get used to.

Another alternative might be Iron Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Heroes) (wikipedia link, sorry). IIRC, there is magic, but it's very magic-lite and it's always a big deal.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 02:36 AM
I'm surprised no-one's said it yet, but you might want to look into using another system. Magic is fundamentally crucial to how everything in D&D works. Sure, you can find work-arounds, but it seems haphazard.

I'd love to advise you further on this point, but the truth is I don't have any experience with any other system. I've tried to familiarize myself with GURPS, but as you've probably heard, the learning curve is pretty steep. You might want to take a glance at d20 Modern or something similar; if I understand things correctly, it has similar mechanics so it shouldn't be too hard to get used to.

Another alternative might be Iron Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Heroes) (wikipedia link, sorry). IIRC, there is magic, but it's very magic-lite and it's always a big deal.

I find that non-magic D&D actually offers a very different experience from any low-magic system, because D&D still has things that feel magical even when the world doesn't really have any magic per ce.

With ToB and some houseruling, you can make for a very interesting kind of a heroic fantasy completely without magic within the rules of D&D and produce quite the enjoyable end result, at least in my experience. GURPS, e.g. would work much better out of the box but would have more...mundane feel to it.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-15, 02:38 AM
I'm surprised no-one's said it yet, but you might want to look into using another system. Magic is fundamentally crucial to how everything in D&D works. Sure, you can find work-arounds, but it seems haphazard.

I'd love to advise you further on this point, but the truth is I don't have any experience with any other system. I've tried to familiarize myself with GURPS, but as you've probably heard, the learning curve is pretty steep. You might want to take a glance at d20 Modern or something similar; if I understand things correctly, it has similar mechanics so it shouldn't be too hard to get used to.

Another alternative might be Iron Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Heroes) (wikipedia link, sorry). IIRC, there is magic, but it's very magic-lite and it's always a big deal.

My group actually has played on different systems before.

For a little while we played in Rune Quest, no idea what edition. We usually ended up just being confused and frustrated with how the rules were set up. Basically, the complete imbalance of starting characters, and the fact that death was extremely common.

We also played d20 modern for a few games, but didn't like the modern setting, and the rules that accompanied it.

I personally have tried playing GURPS a while back, and didn't have much luck with it.

I'm open to trying a new system, but the group I play with is rather casual, and has settled down quite nicely into D&D. Plus, I don't want to look for a new group to play with.

Anyway, /rant end.

rezplz
2009-09-15, 03:14 AM
For a little while we played in Rune Quest, no idea what edition. We usually ended up just being confused and frustrated with how the rules were set up. Basically, the complete imbalance of starting characters, and the fact that death was extremely common.


What are you talking about RuneQuest was awesome ;P

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-15, 03:17 AM
What are you talking about RuneQuest was awesome ;P
I do admit, being the centaur was fun, and overpowered. But it was still a silly system.

rezplz
2009-09-15, 03:23 AM
I do admit, being the centaur was fun, and overpowered. But it was still a silly system.

Ladders. ;P!

Killer Angel
2009-09-15, 03:43 AM
Also, when I say no magic, I don't necessarily mean nothing cool. It'll still be a fantasy game after all, so having spectacular items and abilities isn't a problem. For example, while the fly spell is no longer an option, perhaps there could be some kind of cape that lets characters glide.

Yep, but you must be careful. The CR system has large holes, but sometimes makes sense.
A monster's CR is based (more or less) on an equivalent WbL and appropriate access to magic.
A flying monster Vs non-flaying party means trouble.
Fighting swarms without area spells, can be done, but it's more difficult.
In the end, you cannot trust at all the monsters' CR, and you had to think on every encounter.

JellyPooga
2009-09-15, 03:53 AM
Rogues can fly?

They can if they have an ally with the Fling Ally feat...

OT: I've always liked the idea of a low-to-no magic DnD game, so I've put a little thought into it. Unfortunately, most of those thoughts have already been mentioned (enhancement bonuses = better mundane quality, etc.). One thing I will say, however, is to bear in mind the abilities of the critters you throw against your players; DR/magic is suddenly not the trivial defence it once was (assuming you don't allow enhancement bonuses to "count" as magical for that purpose...I know I wouldn't) and monsters with spell-like abilities will become much more deadly for the fact that the best defence against magic is magic itself (e.g. without See Invisibility or Glitterdust, Invisibility is hard to counter...yes, I know about the bag-of-flour trick, but what honest adventurer is going to lug around flour, it's heavy stuff, on the off chance of a monster turning invisible when doing such is the realm of lengend and myth?).

The other thing is that if you are going to have a low-to-no magic campaign, stick to your guns! Don't allow feats like Ancestral Weapon or PrCs like Kensai or Pyromancer (and no, I don't see a problem with a player taking Psionic feats in a no-magic setting, so long as they can't actually use any psionic powers...the ability to become psionically focused and many of its related feats, I think, is a good way to represent a focused mind and the abilities that such focus can grant). If it is going to be a low- rather than no- magic setting, with the odd magic item knocking around, be sure to ensure they stay out of the players hands as much as possible. The rarity of such items should be something worth commenting on, rather than just "Oh, we've all got a magic sword, what's new?". Also ensure that you put some description into them; instead of a +1 Vorpal Sword, give it some flavour text...without Identify, they won't know it's a +1 Vorpal Sword, they'll just know it as a 'finely crafted sword that resonates with a baleful energy' or somesuch.

I, personally, would advise steering clear of Tome of Battle. Yes, it gives your warriors more options, but ToB was designed (AFAIK) largely to balance the power differential between casters and non-casters...without casters, ToB just ramps up the power level to the degree where everyone is a Crusader, Warblade or Swordsage in much the same way that "everyone is a Druid, Cleric or Wizard" in a full-magic campaign. Sure you'll get players that play non-ToB characters, but in comparison to the ToB characters, they may struggle or pale in comparison when it comes to conflict. That and the fact that many maneuvers emulate effects similar to those of some spells, it may detract from the no-magic feel of the game.

bosssmiley
2009-09-15, 07:01 AM
It is a balancing mess unless you find a way to replace those magic item bonuses. Stats (up to +6, plus the +1 every 4 levels), AC (1/4 level touch, 1/2 level non-touch, +1/4 level non-touch if using a shield), weapon enchantments (+1 AB & dmg or +1d6 dmg), skill bonuses (+5/+10/+15), etc. And spells solve a lot of utility problems that now you'll need to find other ways to handle.

The Tome Series Book of Gears already did something along these lines. Level-dependent bonuses to NA, Saves, TH, etc. All designed to de-emphasize the 'magic item golf bag' problem. If you're packing a magic sword, you get +x/y levels to hit and damage. If you're wearing bracers of armour you get +x/y levels to AC. Etc.

As for solving problems without the handwavium of a spell for every purpose. That actually sounds like fun to me. Instead of sending the wizard to waggle his fingers and cod-Latin the problem away, the players actually have to engage with the game world and plan out their dirty tricks.

@EnnPeeCee: If you like your D&D, but feel casual about gaming just go for a retro-clone system (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/02/jeffs-incomplete-guide-to-new-retro.html) (your entire ruleset in ~128 pages), or for E6 (D&D for those who hate power play). Problems of magic dominance and item-scaling headaches disappear.

"Come to the rules-light side: we have delicious time-saving cookies." :smallbiggrin:

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-09-15, 07:40 AM
We also played d20 modern for a few games, but didn't like the modern setting, and the rules that accompanied it.
Have you tried d20 Past?

Roderick_BR
2009-09-15, 08:04 AM
Rogues can fly?
If you believe strong enough...

No, you'll have to learn how to get your hands dirty and do hard work instead of casting a 3rd level spell and solve 75% of the game's puzzles.

I second the Vitality system. I've been looking over several variants, but yeah, making the normal HP easier to restore, with the Wounds being the actual physical damage helps a lot.

Also, I'd avoid the ranger an paladin, even variants, as they still get some magic powers (some only changed to spell-like abilities, that are kinda weak trade-offs), and go with only the martial types, like Fighter, in core, and others guys like the Knight and Scout (interesting replacements for paladins and rangers, actually) from PHB2 (I think).

JellyPooga
2009-09-15, 08:48 AM
Also, I'd avoid the ranger an paladin, even variants, as they still get some magic powers (some only changed to spell-like abilities, that are kinda weak trade-offs), and go with only the martial types, like Fighter, in core, and others guys like the Knight and Scout (interesting replacements for paladins and rangers, actually) from PHB2 (I think).

Scout is from Complete Adventurer.

The Ranger and Paladin are fine so long as you use the Complete Champion non-spellcasting varient (which grants feats in place of spells), rather than the sucky Complete Warrior ones. Still, come to think of it, even without spellcasting, the Paladin is a dodgey one; practically all their abilities are of Supernatural origin, so may not fit well into a no magic game.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-15, 09:48 AM
Scout is from Complete Adventurer.

The Ranger and Paladin are fine so long as you use the Complete Champion non-spellcasting varient (which grants feats in place of spells), rather than the sucky Complete Warrior ones. Still, come to think of it, even without spellcasting, the Paladin is a dodgey one; practically all their abilities are of Supernatural origin, so may not fit well into a no magic game.

You could reflavour their Su abilities to be Ex abilities. Aura of Courage? They're just that inspiring naturally. Lay on Hands? They know healing skills that are hardcore enough for a D&D world.

Plus, nothing's going to knock out Su abilities without the AMF spell, so you don't even have to change the tags unless it makes you feel better.

EDIT: Alternately, you could let Ranger and Paladin keep their spells, but then it would merely be a low magic setting. Which is probably OK as a D&D game is a fantasy setting, pretty much.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 10:19 AM
EDIT: Alternately, you could let Ranger and Paladin keep their spells, but then it would merely be a low magic setting. Which is probably OK as a D&D game is a fantasy setting, pretty much.

But Ranger getting spells is pretty meh anyways. None of the fantasy characters the class is modelled after are ever shown casting spells. Really, it feels very out-of-place; switching it for Champion of the Wilds seems only sensible.

ericgrau
2009-09-15, 10:27 AM
On the matter of things PCs will need to find a new way to deal with without magic: incorporeal opponents.

Eldariel
2009-09-15, 12:57 PM
On the matter of things PCs will need to find a new way to deal with without magic: incorporeal opponents.

Some exotic materials exist for that. Serrenwood Bow acts as Ghost Touch, for example. Though in a world without magic, running from ghosts seems more appropriate.

TheThan
2009-09-15, 01:16 PM
Here’s some variant rules to get you started on your project.
Low magic campaign rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124039)

mundane healing rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124370)

edit

If your going to play with absolutely no magic. That means you have to find some sort of replacements for the cleric, wizard, druid, sorcerer and bard. (This is assuming your sticking with core here). The ranger and paladin have non-magical variants so that’s not really a problem.