PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Cloudkill



Scipio
2009-09-15, 11:28 AM
In my Expedition to Castle Ravenloft campaign, I have given Strahd the evolved template with Cloudkill as the SLA. The wording in the SRD is confusing, because it states a living creature with 4 to 6 HD is slain but gets a Fortitude save for 1d4 con damage instead. Then it says 6 or more HD takes 1d4 con dmg save for half. So where exactly does a 6 HD person fall?

The plan is to use combinations of Enervation and energy drain to get someone below the various level thresholds. Would you take Maximize SLA or Ability Focus? I keep going back and forth but leaning towards Maximize SLA.

Thanks for the feedback!

Darcand
2009-09-15, 11:31 AM
A person with 6 hd falls under the 6 or more category

Tehnar
2009-09-15, 11:45 AM
It depends on your players, but your tactic might not work out as well you think. If someone might be subject to energy drain, those people are probably of a high enough level to be immune to poisons (not to mention negative energy effects and ability damage/drain).

Scipio
2009-09-15, 11:55 AM
It depends on your players, but your tactic might not work out as well you think. If someone might be subject to energy drain, those people are probably of a high enough level to be immune to poisons (not to mention negative energy effects and ability damage/drain).

That is the main problem for Necromancy spells. There are a number of spells that render the school largely ineffective. So to make up for this Strahd took Arcane Mastery, so he can dispel all of these silly protections. Until the party reaches 10th level, the dispel will be automatic. The party artificer can craft scrolls at +2 caster level, so his protections will require a dispel roll at 8th level.

Keld Denar
2009-09-15, 11:58 AM
Um, I don't think that negative levels reduce your actual HD, unless they become permanent 24 hours later (and Enervation is NEVER permanant unless its fatal).

Its pretty clear what negative levels give. -1 to nearly every d20 roll, loss of hp, penalty of -1 to CL, and loss of a single highest level spell. Its not as if you actually lost the HD...yet.


A Fighter6 with 1 negative level is not the same as a Fighter5.

I can't get to the SRD at work, but if you go to www.d20SRD.com, under the combat heading there is the "Conditions Summary" link. Click there, then on Negative Levels for more details.

Scipio
2009-09-15, 12:02 PM
Here is the relevant text from the SRD. The last line seems to indicate that your level is reduced for purposes of spell effects.


A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained.

–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.

–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.

–5 hit points.

–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

Myou
2009-09-15, 12:28 PM
Here is the relevant text from the SRD. The last line seems to indicate that your level is reduced for purposes of spell effects.

But does -1 effective level mean -1 HD? It doen't say anything like that, and the HD doesn't leave you.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-15, 12:33 PM
But does -1 effective level mean -1 HD? It doen't say anything like that, and the HD doesn't leave you.

Isn't HD used in calculation? Since HD is a function of level. It is impossible to have a level higher than HD.
ECL counts more than HD, but only ECl.

tyckspoon
2009-09-15, 12:45 PM
Tangent:

(whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

It just occurred to me that, running by RAW, there are quite a few XP shenanigans you could get up to with that. The default rules for determining how much XP you get are practically the definition of a calculation that uses a character's level.. 'course, that's going to be one of those things that only works in a vacuum, because XP distribution seems to be one of the things that is most often houseruled in some way (if only because the DM doesn't feel like screwing around to do the math of how much XP you're 'supposed' to get.)

Scipio
2009-09-15, 12:47 PM
But does -1 effective level mean -1 HD? It doen't say anything like that, and the HD doesn't leave you.

That is a good question. My understanding has been that level and HD are equivalent in evaluating how negative levels interact with HD capped spells.

The SRD entry on Hit Dice under Monsters:

A creature’s Hit Dice total is also treated as its level for determining how spells affect the creature, its rate of natural healing, and its maximum ranks in a skill.

Myou
2009-09-15, 12:50 PM
Isn't HD used in calculation? Since HD is a function of level. It is impossible to have a level higher than HD.
ECL counts more than HD, but only ECl.

HD =/= level. Think of creatures with LA. So as far as I can see, HD are a clas feature, like rage/turning/sneak attack, you keep the HD until you actally lose the level that gives it - just as a rogue keeps his sneak attack dice until the negative level become an actual level loss.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-15, 12:55 PM
HD =/= level. Think of creatures with LA. So as far as I can see, HD are a clas feature, like rage/turning/sneak attack, you keep the HD until you actally lose the level that gives it - just as a rogue keeps his sneak attack dice until the negative level become an actual level loss.

No, ECL =/=level; HD always = level.
Give me an example of HD not equaling level.

When DMs say level 6 campaign what they mean in common is "ECL 6", even if they don't realize the difference.

Level doesn't mean class level (though it can). It means how many HD you have.

I can givea example:
A Ogre has 4 HD and 2 LA, but spells ignore LA in calculation. LA is a metgame issue. Ogres can be put to sleep due to only 4 HD.

Scipio
2009-09-15, 01:02 PM
After reading the SRD entries a bit more, I think I am mistaken.

SRD Entry Level Loss:

A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die.

This certainly seems to indicate that a negative level does not equate to lower HD until/unless the negative level becomes permanent (i.e. Level Loss). So HD caps on spells such as Cloudkill, Circle of Death, Blasphemy, etc. are not impacted by negative levels, but they are affected by level loss.

Noble Savant
2009-09-15, 01:08 PM
This brings up an interesting question. What happens if you lose all your Racial Hit Dice? Could you choose lose them in place of other levels? Because I could really see a use for getting rid of those "dead" levels.

Scipio
2009-09-15, 01:10 PM
This brings up an interesting question. What happens if you lose all your Racial Hit Dice? Could you choose lose them in place of other levels? Because I could really see a use for getting rid of those "dead" levels.


I don't believe you get any choice in the matter. Your highest levels are removed first, and racial HD should never be higher than class HD.

Eloel
2009-09-15, 01:12 PM
I don't believe you get any choice in the matter. Your highest levels are removed first, and racial HD should never be higher than class HD.

Not unless you 'advance' your character by HD after class levels, no.

Lamech
2009-09-15, 01:16 PM
How could you ever end up with monster HD after getting character levels? Hmm... its not like there is a convient template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm)that gives HD. And even if there was it would take a lot of work to aquire. Not just getting bit by a radioactive spider cursed creature.

Keld Denar
2009-09-15, 01:18 PM
–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

I believe what that is refering to is the fact that a lot of things are calculated as a function of level. DCs of many special (non-spell) abilities are found this way. A Wyvern's poison has a DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + Con bonus. If you Enervated the Wyvern for 2 negative levels, its poison DC would drop by 1. Likewise, and Assassin's Death Attack has a DC of 10 + Assassin levels + Int, so if you hit a level 1 Assassin with an Enervation for 2 levels, his Death Attack DC would be 9 + Int, but he wouldn't lose his Death Attack since he doesn't actually lose the Assassin level.

You couldn't, however, Enervate someone down a couple levels and then level them with a higher effect Blasphemy, since their HD are still there.

tyckspoon
2009-09-15, 01:24 PM
I don't believe you get any choice in the matter. Your highest levels are removed first, and racial HD should never be higher than class HD.

They can be if you're playing something like a Minotaur or Centaur that has a significant number of RHD; such races can begin the game without any class levels at all. Getting level-drained would be long-term beneficial for them (especially if LA Buyoff is in use, since re-leveling with actual class levels lets them buyoff faster), although it'd kind of suck at the time it happened. It also has potential weirdness with another rule, since if they get reduced to just 1 racial hit dice it spontaneously morphs into a class level.

daggaz
2009-09-15, 01:25 PM
Ennervation reduces your "effective level" as well as your hitpoints. HD are a measure of your "effective level" as they are included in all in-game mechanical calculations that deal with "level", whereas LA is only included in meta-game calculations involving xp and CR vs ECL. Now, its stupid that one text talks about "effective level" while in another ECL = "effective character level" but you get used to that when dealing with crazy wizards. They are responsible for owlbears, after all.

My group never even discussed this subject, tho looking at it I can see the rules lawyers getting their thesauruses out. A negative level means that you count as one HD less when target by spells that measure HD. Its clear enough, considering you "count as one level less for all possible calculations" and that you lost hitpoints as well.

As to the person who brought up using ennervation as a means to bypass the XP mechanic and reap the rewards. Congrats, you get a cookie (I certainly never thought of doing that, and technically, gotta say it works), but unfortunately, the cookie is served with dessert, and the dessert is having the DM's books stuffed down your throat. :smallsmile:

EDIT: About the wyvern example.. If it works one way for wyverns, why doesnt it work the other way when you cast a spell on the wyvern? As a player, I would FULLY expect that if I dropped a bunch of enervates succesfully on some big monster, that I could finish it off with some wimpy first lvl save-or-suck when all my good slots were spent. Especially considering you are dropping its saves each time as well. Otherwise, whats the point??:smallconfused:

I think the real clincher to this whole argument is the part about being instantly slain when you have as many negative levels as you have HD. A barb would only lose 5 hitpoints per ennervate, which might not even wipe out his con score, but he is instantly slain. Why? Cuz zero HD means zero hitpoints, regardless. Its clear that ennervate reduces your "effective HD", 3.5 just wanted to save us the headache of actually having to calculate that mess. Remember those old versions??

So in conclusion, ennervate does not reduce your actual HD, but it does reduce your effective HD in regards to spell effects and all other in-game calculations.

Keld Denar
2009-09-15, 01:54 PM
Because its how the Wyvern interacts with you, not how you interact with the Wyvern. Thats the difference.

And BTW, the whole level drain to eliminate RHD doesn't work. If you are a centaur with 4 HD and +2 LA, you can't just level drain yourself down to 1 RHD and +2 LA and then start taking Fighter levels, you have to earn back those RHD until ECL 6 and THEN you can start adding class levels. Otherwise, RHD serve absolutely NO purpose in PC ECL calcs, because a person could start a level 3 centaur with 1 RHD and +2 LA and just take fighter levels from there, but you can't, because it explicitly states you MUST finish you racial levels before you are allowed to take class levels. Doing otherwise is cheating.

Also, the reason you die when your negative levels = your HD isnt' because you "run out of HD". Its because negative levels explicitly state that if your # of negative levels = HD, you die. You can't reverse extrapolate it to infer that you've run out of HD, or whatever...

Douglas
2009-09-15, 02:16 PM
In editions before 3e, level drain was resolved as "you lose a level right now." This caused a lot of headaches as players had to stop in the middle of combat and figure out exactly what losing that particular level meant. Negative levels were introduced in 3e specifically to eliminate that problem by providing a simplified uniform set of penalties meant to simulate losing a level. Part of that deal is that you are counted as being one level lower for spell effects and such, regardless of which end of the effect you are on.

No, this is not actually an explicit part of the rules, but it's an important bit of context for interpreting what the designers probably meant by "–1 effective level". Whether it's for the DC of your SLA or whether you're subject to a Sleep spell, you are considered one level lower. Whether you are the source or target of the effect makes no difference.

Scipio
2009-09-15, 02:24 PM
So in conclusion, ennervate does not reduce your actual HD, but it does reduce your effective HD in regards to spell effects and all other in-game calculations.

I cannot find any reference to effective HD, when it comes to negative levels. The SRD states, "whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level". Your level is normally equal to your HD, and your HD can never be less than your level (please do not bring up LA or ECL as they do not apply here). This does not mean that HD are affected by negative levels.

Spells with HD caps (e.g. Cloudkill) do not use level in a die roll or calculation, do they?

sonofzeal
2009-09-15, 02:51 PM
No, ECL =/=level; HD always = level.
Give me an example of HD not equaling level.
A creature with a Greater Titan Bloodline, depending on your reading. Bloodline levels are always a bit of an exception though.

ericgrau
2009-09-15, 03:21 PM
HD = racial HD (aka monstrous HD) + class HD (aka class levels)

LA and ECL are not a factor for in game effects like cloudkill. They're only for things like figuring out experience, CR's and what level party to group you with.

Think of cloudkill this way:
die: 0-3 HD
die: 4-6 HD
take 1d4 con damage: 7+ HD (I'm assuming the overlap is a typo)
no effect: -

Making your fort save moves you down 1 step.

Lysander
2009-09-15, 03:56 PM
This makes me think that HD is not effected by negative levels:


A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained....

–5 hit points.


Take two identical fighters. They have the exact same stats and hitpoints, except one is level 9 and one is level 10. The level 10 fighter gained 8 hitpoints with his most recent level.

Now the level 10 fighter gains a negative level and loses 5 hitpoints. He still has 3 more hitpoints than the level 9 fighter. Those 3 hitpoints are a remaining benefit from the HD he gained with level 10, implying that the HD still exists.

Douglas
2009-09-15, 04:31 PM
Now the level 10 fighter gains a negative level and loses 5 hitpoints. He still has 3 more hitpoints than the level 9 fighter. Those 3 hitpoints are a remaining benefit from the HD he gained with level 10, implying that the HD still exists.
Now do the same with a wizard who only got 3 hp last level. The level drained level 10 guy now has less hit points than the actual level 9 character. How does your reasoning work now? That last hit die has been negated completely (at least as far as hp goes) and it's gone on to part of the next one.

The -5 hp is intended as a rough average to approximate the loss of hp from losing one hit die for a typical character.

For all characters of PHB races, the normal assumed default, level and hit dice are always equivalent. Negative levels are intended to approximate losing a level without forcing players to spend large amounts of in combat play time figuring out exactly what modifiers to use. It is not plausible in my opinion that the designers meant to distinguish between level and hit dice in this particular case, as such a distinction without referring to a more specific kind of level (caster level, class level, etc.) is practically nonexistent in the game and losing a hit die is a universal and uniform consequence of losing a level. Any attempt to argue otherwise is nitpicking on very tenuous ground and ignoring obvious RAI in my opinion.


your HD can never be less than your level
Got a reference for that? It seems to me that the opposite is true, as every hit die either comes from a level or counts as a level.

Scipio
2009-09-15, 04:41 PM
For all characters of PHB races, the normal assumed default, level and hit dice are always equivalent. Negative levels are intended to approximate losing a level without forcing players to spend large amounts of in combat play time figuring out exactly what modifiers to use.

You make a compelling argument for HD and Level being interchangeable. I wish there was more of a consensus here, because it has a large impact for my NPC.

My 10th level Strahd has Arcane Thesis (Enervation) along with Split Ray. As a 5th level slot, he can do a Split Ray Enervation followed by Cloudkill in round 2. This could easily put 2 PCs in the save or die category, or it could put one in the no save die category. So of course I want to make sure I am reading the rules correctly.

Lamech
2009-09-15, 06:22 PM
And BTW, the whole level drain to eliminate RHD doesn't work. If you are a centaur with 4 HD and +2 LA, you can't just level drain yourself down to 1 RHD and +2 LA and then start taking Fighter levels, you have to earn back those RHD until ECL 6 and THEN you can start adding class levels. Otherwise, RHD serve absolutely NO purpose in PC ECL calcs, because a person could start a level 3 centaur with 1 RHD and +2 LA and just take fighter levels from there, but you can't, because it explicitly states you MUST finish you racial levels before you are allowed to take class levels. Doing otherwise is cheating.

Where does it say you MUST finish your racial progression? I know it says that monster classes, (such as the "ghoul" class) must complete their progression. (And even then if you lost your ghoul levels you would have still completed it. It does not say your progression must be complete it says that it must have been completed.) You could claim that all monsters are monster classes but that would result in a glitch with level drain involved.
Example: If a 4HD 4 LA monster class would be level 8 total. If it completed its advancment and then lost 3 levels it would lose 3 hit dice. (You specifically lose a HD when you lose a level this is spelled out (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) .) If it earned its monster class levels back it would probably be short a few HD (unless it got three in the last three levels but that would be wierd.)

So where does it say that either all monsters must finish there progression? I believe it only applies to the monsters that have been turned into a "class".

sofawall
2009-09-15, 06:50 PM
I don't see where that is spelled out, the only mention of HD I see there is the calculation for the DC to stop the perma-loss.



When DMs say level 6 campaign what they mean in common is "ECL 6", even if they don't realize the difference.

So, wait, you're saying here level equals ECL, but then here...


Level doesn't mean class level (though it can). It means how many HD you have.

If a=b and a=c, b=c. ECL does not equal HD, therefore you are wrong.

Soras Teva Gee
2009-09-15, 07:30 PM
(You specifically lose a HD when you lose a level this is spelled out (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) .)


AHEM:


Energy Drain And Negative Levels

Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect). These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour.

A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

* -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
* -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
* -5 hit points.
* -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
* If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

Highlighted is the only place HD is 'spelled out' and it is mentioned nowhere in the description as being lost. The only basis is by making "effective level" synonymous with "level" taking the further notes above as merely an example.

Of course merely draining level simply cancels out because XP is a separate pool and therefore if you loose level you suddenly have more XP then needed and proceed to level right the heck back up.

sofawall
2009-09-15, 07:36 PM
AHEM:



Highlighted is the only place HD is 'spelled out' and it is mentioned nowhere in the description as being lost. The only basis is by making "effective level" synonymous with "level" taking the further notes above as merely an example.

Of course merely draining level simply cancels out because XP is a separate pool and therefore if you loose level you suddenly have more XP then needed and proceed to level right the heck back up.

Why did you feel the need to point out exactly what I did a mere single post before you?

Lamech
2009-09-15, 09:20 PM
AHEM:



Highlighted is the only place HD is 'spelled out' and it is mentioned nowhere in the description as being lost. The only basis is by making "effective level" synonymous with "level" taking the further notes above as merely an example.

Of course merely draining level simply cancels out because XP is a separate pool and therefore if you loose level you suddenly have more XP then needed and proceed to level right the heck back up.

Err... scroll down to level loss. You know the thing that says what happens when you lose a level. Kind of important to know what it entails when you suffer level loss. Okay the confusion is enterily my fault. Not the point there is still a glitch.


Level Loss
A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.

The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-15, 09:40 PM
Err... scroll down to level loss. You know the thing that says what happens when you lose a level. Kind of important to know what it entails when you suffer level loss. Okay the confusion is enterily my fault. Not the point there is still a glitch.

A negative level is not level loss.

Keld Denar
2009-09-15, 10:01 PM
Exactly Fax. Level loss would make a character more vulnerable to effects like Cloudkill and Blasphemy because the LEVEL IS GONE. Its as if it was never there. XP is reset to a lower amount and all benefits of the level are removed.

Negative levels are just a reductions of a bunch of skills and abilities temporarily (unless they actually result in REAL level loss, but thats a different story). The HD is still there, though, the abilities are still there. Negative levels don't make you any more vulnerable to level based effects like Blasphemy and Cloudkill...

Wanna know whats really funny? Take a fresh from spell prep wizard, say...7th level. Assuming he has enough int for a single 4th level bonus spell, he preps 2 spells today, Evards and Solid Fog. Before he gets a chance to cast either, he gets hit by a nasty Wight. Wight tacks a single negative level on the wizard. Per the rules for negative levels, he loses a single spell of the highest level he can cast and gets a -1 CL penalty imposed. Say, he chooses to drop Solid Fog. Now, if that negative level actually lowered his level, he couldn't cast his Evards, since 6th level wizards can't cast 4th level spells. But he can, and nothing keeps him from it. If he casts it, he would have a CL of 6 though, so his grapple check would be +10 instead of +11.

Yea, its screwy, but thats the way it is. He only gets the penalties stated in the description of negative level, not a bunch of extra stuff because...

Douglas
2009-09-15, 10:16 PM
Exactly Fax. Level loss would make a character more vulnerable to effects like Cloudkill and Blasphemy because the LEVEL IS GONE. Its as if it was never there. XP is reset to a lower amount and all benefits of the level are removed.

Negative levels are just a reductions of a bunch of skills and abilities temporarily (unless they actually result in REAL level loss, but thats a different story). The HD is still there, though, the abilities are still there. Negative levels don't make you any more vulnerable to level based effects like Blasphemy and Cloudkill...
And how do you square this with the "-1 effective level" penalty and the fact that negative levels are intended to simulate level loss without forcing that much calculation in the middle of combat? Seriously, the only reason negative levels exist is so that the calculation of what draining a level actually does can be postponed to a point where you are neither trying to finish a combat nor uncertain how many levels will actually stay gone.

Your example wizard does not lose his Evards because the determination of whether he has that slot or not is not redone on the spot. The loss of one high level spell slot is an attempt to approximate what an actual lost level would cost, and it's not perfect. Whether he is affected by Sleep or Cloudkill is calculated at the time the spell tries to affect him, and depends on his level at that time, including adjustments for negative levels.

Sophismata
2009-09-15, 10:45 PM
So of course I want to make sure I am reading the rules correctly.

You are, HD are synonnymous with levels as far as player characters are concerned. A level 10 human counts as a 10 HD creature, and if his effective level was nine he would effectively count as a 9 HD creature.

There are some semantics that can be argued, but keep in mind negative levels are designed to prevent the annoyance of calculating level loss mid-combat. The idea still remains that you are, effectively, one level lower - and that includes spell effects based off of level (such as cloudkill and sleep).

Keld Denar
2009-09-15, 10:56 PM
I don't get it. You are desagreeing with me, but saying the same thing. Clarify!

And I already explained the effective level part. Thats for stuff like a monk's stunning fist save, or his SR, or an assassin's death attack DC. That kind of stuff...calculated by character level...exactly like the text says. You don't lose the abilities because you don't lose the level because a negative level is NOT a reduction in HD which would cause you to be more vulnerable to cloudkills...

Try this example. An 13th level monk gets hit by that same Wight (what? Monk's ACs suck!). That monk gains one negative level. His SR was 23 (10 + level). Now its 22, but he still has it. Why? Cause he's still 13th level. He just has a -1 penalty imposed to all his class abilities and stuff. If a negative level actually lowered your level, you'd lose your SR. The same reason you don't lose your SR is the same reason you aren't any more vulnerable to Blasphemy and such.

If you don't like that, what about a rogue with Sneak Attack? If he was 11th level (6d6), and gained a negative level, would his SA drop to 5d6? No. Why? Because SA is a feature, not something calculated as a function of level. Hes not 10th level, hes 11th level with a bunch of penalties. If rogues had an ability like death attack with a scaling DC based on a function of his level, it would be affected. Not his sneak attack though. Why? Because his level hasn't changed. Hes still 11th level, with a bunch of penalties. Nothing says otherwise.

Douglas
2009-09-16, 12:11 AM
I don't get it. You are desagreeing with me, but saying the same thing. Clarify!

And I already explained the effective level part. Thats for stuff like a monk's stunning fist save, or his SR, or an assassin's death attack DC. That kind of stuff...calculated by character level...exactly like the text says. You don't lose the abilities because you don't lose the level because a negative level is NOT a reduction in HD which would cause you to be more vulnerable to cloudkills...
I'm not clear on where you're getting this absolute distinction between levels and hit dice from. You don't lose abilities from those levels, but anything and everything that references your level or hit dice directly as a number uses the reduced amount.


Try this example. An 13th level monk gets hit by that same Wight (what? Monk's ACs suck!). That monk gains one negative level. His SR was 23 (10 + level). Now its 22, but he still has it. Why? Cause he's still 13th level. He just has a -1 penalty imposed to all his class abilities and stuff. If a negative level actually lowered your level, you'd lose your SR. The same reason you don't lose your SR is the same reason you aren't any more vulnerable to Blasphemy and such.
Losing SR and being more vulnerable to Blasphemy are not the same thing. SR is a specific ability granted by a specific class level. This is not lost until you actually lose the level, though its value is affected in the mean time. Blasphemy's effect depends on the numeric total of how many hit dice you have, which is generally equal to your level. This numeric total is reduced by negative levels.


If you don't like that, what about a rogue with Sneak Attack? If he was 11th level (6d6), and gained a negative level, would his SA drop to 5d6? No. Why? Because SA is a feature, not something calculated as a function of level. Hes not 10th level, hes 11th level with a bunch of penalties. If rogues had an ability like death attack with a scaling DC based on a function of his level, it would be affected. Not his sneak attack though. Why? Because his level hasn't changed. Hes still 11th level, with a bunch of penalties. Nothing says otherwise.
He's still 11th level and still has all class abilities granted by his 11th level. Anything that depends on how many total levels or hit dice he has independent of what classes they are is affected, however.

Negative levels are meant to simulate level loss. The list of penalties for a negative level is a decent approximation of what a typical character would lose by going down a level. The set of typical losses that would be exactly the same across all characters includes having one less hit die, and I find the idea that the designers did not intend this with the "-1 effective level" bit to not be credible. Pretty much everything else you might lose without having to look it up in a class specific table is represented; there is no reason to exclude number of hit dice from this treatment, and every reason to think that the writer of that particular section of the rules was stuck in a "level and hit dice are the same thing" mindset.

A level X character with Y negative levels is still a level X character with a bunch of penalties. This much is correct. One of those penalties is that he is treated as a level X-Y character whenever his level as a number matters.

Scipio
2009-09-16, 09:42 AM
Great discussion everyone. Except for the racial HD tangents, this is quite helpful.

Is there a difference between level and HD, when it comes to spell effects? That is the crux of the issue here. Douglas makes a good argument for the design intent of the negative levels, but I am not convinced the rules support his argument.

Take a look at the condition summary for Energy Drained (emphasis mine).


Energy Drained: The character gains one or more negative levels, which might permanently drain the characterÂ’s levels. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, he dies. Each negative level gives a creature the following penalties: –1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks; loss of 5 hit points; and –1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities). In addition, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from the highest spell level castable.

As you can see there are specific things affected by a reduction in your effective level, but HD is not mentioned anywhere.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-16, 09:49 AM
Take a look at the condition summary for Energy Drained (emphasis mine).



As you can see there are specific things affected by a reduction in your effective level, but HD is not mentioned anywhere.

Using that definition, you'd die from having negative levels = HD when you got to HALF your ECL due to negative levels.

"I am a 10th level Fighter (10 HD). I get level drained for 5 levels. Now I have 5 HD and 5 negative levels. My HD = my negative levels, I die."

This makes much less sense than "I am a 10th level fighter (10 HD). I get level drained for 10 levels. Now I have 10 HD and 10 negative levels. My HD = my negative levels, I die."

Starbuck_II
2009-09-16, 10:11 AM
Exactly Fax. Level loss would make a character more vulnerable to effects like Cloudkill and Blasphemy because the LEVEL IS GONE. Its as if it was never there. XP is reset to a lower amount and all benefits of the level are removed.

Negative levels are just a reductions of a bunch of skills and abilities temporarily (unless they actually result in REAL level loss, but thats a different story). The HD is still there, though, the abilities are still there. Negative levels don't make you any more vulnerable to level based effects like Blasphemy and Cloudkill...

Wanna know whats really funny? Take a fresh from spell prep wizard, say...7th level. Assuming he has enough int for a single 4th level bonus spell, he preps 2 spells today, Evards and Solid Fog. Before he gets a chance to cast either, he gets hit by a nasty Wight. Wight tacks a single negative level on the wizard. Per the rules for negative levels, he loses a single spell of the highest level he can cast and gets a -1 CL penalty imposed. Say, he chooses to drop Solid Fog. Now, if that negative level actually lowered his level, he couldn't cast his Evards, since 6th level wizards can't cast 4th level spells. But he can, and nothing keeps him from it. If he casts it, he would have a CL of 6 though, so his grapple check would be +10 instead of +11.

Yea, its screwy, but thats the way it is. He only gets the penalties stated in the description of negative level, not a bunch of extra stuff because...

Um, -1 caster means he doesn't meet minimum requirements to caat a 4th level spell (caster level 7)
Same as Mage Slayer on a 7th level caster can't cast 4th level spells.

ericgrau
2009-09-16, 10:15 AM
This makes me think that HD is not effected by negative levels:...

This makes me think HD is affected by negative levels, at least for the purpose of spells like cloudkill:


-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

ECL is used when talking about game balancing things, like xp and party level. When the DM says "This is a level 6" campaign, he really means ECL 6. One of the players might have racial LA so their total HD (racial + class) is actually less than 6. So while for balancing purposes they're level 6, for in game effects they might have 4 HD and be vulnerable to sleep, for example.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-16, 10:30 AM
This makes me think HD is affected by negative levels, at least for the purpose of spells like cloudkill:


ECL is used when talking about game balancing things, like xp and party level. When the DM says "This is a level 6" campaign, he really means ECL 6. One of the players might have racial LA so their total HD (racial + class) is actually less than 6. So while for balancing purposes they're level 6, for in game effects they might have 4 HD and be vulnerable to sleep, for example.

This STILL results in "I am a 10th level Fighter (10 HD). I get level drained for 5 levels. Now I have 5 HD and 5 negative levels. My HD = my negative levels, I die."

ericgrau
2009-09-16, 10:34 AM
Nope, you're just counting the same rule twice. It means you're still a 10th level fighter, but for all practical purposes you're 5th level.

Keld Denar
2009-09-16, 11:45 AM
Um, -1 caster means he doesn't meet minimum requirements to caat a 4th level spell (caster level 7)
Same as Mage Slayer on a 7th level caster can't cast 4th level spells.

This is also kinda funny. No where in the rules does it say that there is a minimum CL for any spell. The only rule even close is the rule about voluntarily casting spells at a lower CL. You can voluntarily lower your CL to get a lesser effect from a spell (Like, a 10th level wizard casting a fireball and opting to only do 7d6 damage). That rule states that you can't voluntarily lower the CL lower than the minimum your class needs to cast that spell. Thats a different case from having your CL lowered for you due to a negative effect.

I mean, otherwise you'd have uncomfortable situations with spell completion items. If a Paladin took Scribe Scroll, he could draw up a scroll of Lesser Restoration as a level 1 spell with a min CL of 2. If a cleric picked up that scroll (its a divine scroll, there is no distinction between cleric and paladin scrolls, only arcane and divine), he wouldn't be able to use it. Why? Cause LR is a 2nd level cleric spell, which requires 3rd level, and the scroll is only written at CL2. But its not a problem, the cleric just casts the spell regardless of what CL its scribed at.

Lysander
2009-09-16, 12:09 PM
This STILL results in "I am a 10th level Fighter (10 HD). I get level drained for 5 levels. Now I have 5 HD and 5 negative levels. My HD = my negative levels, I die."

It seems crystal clear to me that this rule proves HD is not affected by negative levels.

Because when you get down to it, HD and levels ARE different. Hitdice is merely a representation of hitpoints gained over time. Some classes (such as the Ghoul monster class) don't provide a HD with each level. Yes, ghouls can't have levels drained but it goes to show that HD and level are separate.

The health drain caused by negative levels is uniform, regardless of how much health you gained with each hit die. -5 no matter what. Divorcing it entirely from what your hitdie and roll is also seems to prove that they're independent concepts.

quick_comment
2009-09-16, 12:30 PM
The 10th level fighter also doesnt lose 2 feats for being 5th level until he actually loses the levels.

Lamech
2009-09-16, 12:45 PM
This is also kinda funny. No where in the rules does it say that there is a minimum CL for any spell. The only rule even close is the rule about voluntarily casting spells at a lower CL. You can voluntarily lower your CL to get a lesser effect from a spell (Like, a 10th level wizard casting a fireball and opting to only do 7d6 damage). That rule states that you can't voluntarily lower the CL lower than the minimum your class needs to cast that spell. Thats a different case from having your CL lowered for you due to a negative effect.

I mean, otherwise you'd have uncomfortable situations with spell completion items. If a Paladin took Scribe Scroll, he could draw up a scroll of Lesser Restoration as a level 1 spell with a min CL of 2. If a cleric picked up that scroll (its a divine scroll, there is no distinction between cleric and paladin scrolls, only arcane and divine), he wouldn't be able to use it. Why? Cause LR is a 2nd level cleric spell, which requires 3rd level, and the scroll is only written at CL2. But its not a problem, the cleric just casts the spell regardless of what CL its scribed at.Hmm... it doesn't say "That rule states that you can't voluntarily lower the CL lower than the minimum your class needs to cast that spell." They state "but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question," so if you choose to cast a spell at level 6 you can't do it. For example you could choose to cast magic missle at level 5. Or choose to curl into a ball and hope the warblade saves you.
More to the point: If someone placed a geas on you and said, "you must cast all spells at CL level 3" would the mage be able to cast a fireball? I say no, despite the fact mage can't choose CL the min CL rule still applies. If the geas said "the CL of your spells must be the number you last heard" would the wizard be able to cast a fireball at level one?