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gallagher
2009-09-15, 11:45 AM
so i am playing in a dnd 3.5 game, and i am playing a ranger. the entirety of my experience with martial characters is playing in my first game, a one nighter, as a barbarian... and that was a few years ago. i have been playing only in a few campaigns since.

my real question is where should i take this to? i am a dual-weapon specialist, i have 18 dex and 17 str. we are playing a player short for the game so we got to roll 5d6 drop 2. i was extremely lucky and got four 17s and two 15s (which went into my int and cha)

i am a level 4 human ranger, have a hawk as my animal companion (considering taking the exalted cohort feat to get a giant eagle later). i have exotic weapon prof: bastard sword, combat reflexes, and two weapon defense as feats. i also put my skills down well so i dont have to worry about making too many checks. i spent most of my 5400gp on making my BS a +1, a +1 bracers of armor and a +1 cloak of resistance. i am also the party's only divine caster so i have a few cure potions (as does the rest of the party) until later when i can use a wand of cure light.

anyway, any suggestions on what i should save up for (considering making my BS spell-storing later) what feats i should look into, maybe a prestige class? really any advice. my favored enemy is goblin.

lsfreak
2009-09-15, 11:49 AM
What sources available, what level is the optimization? (Is it shock trooper DDM clerics and batman wizards, or is it healer clerics and blasty-wizards?)

EDIT: My advice would be 4 levels of scout, swift hunter, the rest into ranger. A level of barbarian for pounce, and Sword of the Arcane Order in order to get wizard spells too. Forget bastard sword proficiency and just use longsword + shortsword. But that'll be out of place in a campaign where the cleric spends his time healing. (Also, I don't know non-rogue TWF very well, so that might not be the best advice anywho).

Bandededed
2009-09-15, 12:06 PM
Well, I'd go for a wand, if I were you:

Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.)

You can use it! If you can afford it, however.

If you want something more exotic for weapons, I'd try the greatsword and armor spikes method, if your DM let's it fly, but only if your party is fairly optimized. Then I'd swap EWP bastard sword with power attack, since you'd get the 2|1 return on the greatsword.

And hell, with those stats, you could make 'em a half-orc instead, and not really fell greatly penalized for your +2 str. It'd certainly make you frightening.

Edit: just noticed, bracers of armor? Those are a terrible idea for anyone who's going to wear armor. They don't stack together, so it'd better to just grab a chain shirt and make it +1, netting you +4 AC over those for the same price now, and much cheaper as you continue making them better.

jiriku
2009-09-15, 12:16 PM
What are your ability scores?

Avoid bracers of armor. Get real armor. Even a suit of nonmagical leather is better than bracers +1, and it's tons cheaper.

At higher levels, a sunblade is a bastard sword that you wield like a short sword. It makes an effective offhand weapon, allowing you to dual-wield two bastard swords without taking the oversize two weapon fighting feat.

How free are you to retrain your choice of class features and feats? Certain prestige classes would be open to you sooner if you could retrain some of your earlier choices.

Person_Man
2009-09-15, 12:38 PM
What are your build goals and books allowed?

The strongest Ranger option is to just play a strait Ranger 20 using the Wildshape variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm). (There are various feats which expand your Wildshape options).

Anywho, here's some helpful newb advice for melee combat:

For damage, take a look at some combination of Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Spirited Charge, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Valorous Weapon, and anything else that either multiplies damage without requiring a critical hit.
Find a way to get Pounce or Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) by ECL 11ish. There are many ways to do this, including a Ranger spell that you can put into a wand (and then put the wand into a wand chamber in your weapon, so you're always holding it).
For battlefield control, you have many options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5858387&postcount=10). Basically you want something to deal with mooks, and something to deal with boss enemies. Rangers are hindered somewhat in that Two Weapon Fighting doesn't have a lot of reach weapon options. But keep in mind that you can use a two handed weapon and armor spikes with TWF, or take Exotic Weapon Prof Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136).
Ask your friends for magical buffs. Seriously. There's no reason to dip into Cleric, buy expensive wands, or enter a weird PrC or whatnot. Just ask the other casters to help you out.
Choose powerful magic items. There's lists all over the boards. I could rattle off my favorites here, but I'm not sure how abusive you want to get.


You can look up feats and prestige classes on realmshelp (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml) and crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php).

JellyPooga
2009-09-15, 12:40 PM
My advice would be to (1)switch your Dex and Str, (2)switch to Ranged Combat Style rather than TWF, (3)ditch Exotic Weapon Proficiency for Power Attack, (4)ditch Two Weapon Defence for something else entirely and (5)ditch the Bracers of Armour and actually, youknow, wear armour instead.

1) If wielding 2-handed, the difference between 17 and 18 Str is a difference of +2 damage;

Str 17 = +3 bonus x1.5 = +4
Str 18 = +4 bonus x1.5 = +6

That's the equivalent of the Weapon Specialisation feat (plus Weapon Focus for the bonus to hit).

Putting the 18 into Dex will give you 1 better AC and +1 to hit with ranged, but if you're thinking of a melee character anyway, hitting in melee is going to be more important and the extra damage helps there too.

2) TWF is just not worth the feat investment. You miss more for the potential to do a little extra damage. Better to hit reliably.

3)EWP in Bastard Sword is pretty much a waste of time. Either take a Longsword (if you want the option of using it 1-handed) or Greatsword (if you'd prefer the extra damage). Power Attack will give you up to +8 damage. EWP gives you a flat +1 (on average) over a Longsword or -2 from a Greatsword.

4)Even if you do go down the TWF route, TWD is still naf. If you want the extra defence, take Improved Buckler Defence. A buckler will give you the same bonus to AC except you can enchant it and use it when fighting with a 2-H weapon or a single 1-H weapon as well. Having said that, I'd advise something else entirely; Improved Initiative is always useful, but go with whatever suits the style you're after.

5)Bracers of Armour +1 are a complete waste of time. Why wear them when you could buy a MW Chain Shirt for less than half the price and have an AC 3 higher? Armour bonuses don't stack. There could, I guess, be an argument for wearing Bracers of Armour +2 in addition to your normal armour if you've used the varient rule from the Arms and Equipment Guide to get an armour property in place of the extra +1 Armour bonus, but just +1 Bracers is a waste of 1000gp.

---------------------------------

Now, if you're absolutely dead set on going TWF, points 1, 3, 4 and 5 still stand, with the exception of not taking Power Attack. Power Attack and TWF don't mix well unfortunately unless you want to take the extra -2 to hit to wield a 1-handed weapon in your off-hand. Instead of that, I'd advise something like Quick Draw. Wield a Longsword or Battlaxe in your on-hand and have either a Throwing Axe or Dagger for your off-hand (with a reserve of spares in a handy bandolier). That way, you can utilise your high Dex to lob your off-hand weapons around and still have something in that hand come melee time. Alternatively, aim for one of the Weapon Style feats from Complete Warrior; High Sword Low Axe is a good one if you don't mind biting two Weapon Foci and Combat Expertise.

gallagher
2009-09-15, 05:06 PM
ok, sorry just got back from the last of my classes, so i have the numbers for everything.

STR 17, DEX 18, CON 17, INT 15, WIS 17, CHA 15

got lucky with 42 HP

skills: HA 5
HIDE 7
KNO 5 (in nature, geo, and dungeon each)
LISTEN 7
MS 7
SEARCH 7
SPOT 7
SURV 7

i also put my final skill point into craft (carving). it is a character thing. i made my own pipe and signet ring.

got rid of the bracers of armor, thanks i didnt know they didnt stack.

also thanks to the guy who told me about the wand of cure light. i thought i had to be able to cast it at the time, not just have it on my list!

i have 1700 gold left now. that is going into a wand of either cure light or cure mod.

and thanks to the poster who left the detailed response on a number of things to work with my ranger. i am not going to go through with power attack until possibly later, maybe pick up 2 lvls of fighter later and get cleave. probably not.

and for those wondering, i am aiming at being the ultimate flanking machine!

deuxhero
2009-09-15, 05:10 PM
I would have suggested you make your fighting style be wildshape (UA, in the SRD), there is more fun with that than "5-foot step, full attack"

But anyways, light wounds is much more cost effective than moderate.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-15, 06:14 PM
and for those wondering, i am aiming at being the ultimate flanking machine!
I'm going to assume this is a core only game since you didn't even acknowledge the question about books. If you do get to use non core, you can still just stick with normal Ranger ... the strongest ranger spells are in Spell compendium and Champions of Ruin (the champions of ruin spells are for arrows though, but hey you can always use arrows as daggers ... so a wand of Darkflame Arrow would be nice although you would need the Wand Chamber weapon augmentation from Dungeonscape to be able to use a wand easily).

Flanking is nice at low levels, but unless you are helping out a rogue it's not really that relevant at higher levels.

TWF depends on bonus damage, you have some but not for all races ... so start saving up for the 8K you need for your first really nice weapon, a +1 wounding bastard sword (eventually backed up by a +1 wounding short sword).

gallagher
2009-09-15, 06:16 PM
I'm going to assume this is a core only game since you didn't even acknowledge the question about books. If you do get to use non core, you can still just stick with ranger ... the strongest ranger spells are in Spell compendium and Champions of Ruin.

Flanking is nice at low levels, but unless you are helping out a rogue it's not really that relevant at higher levels.

TWF depends on bonus damage, you have some but not for all races ... so start saving up for the 8K you need for your first really nice weapon, a +1 wounding bastard sword (eventually backed up by a +1 wounding short sword).

yeah it is only core rulebooks. if we want to go with something not in a core book we have to check with it on an individual basis with the DM.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-15, 06:18 PM
In core, ranger is rather weak.

What in a ranger do you like? Perhaps we can suggest a good multiclass for you. I enjoy Ranger/Barbarian/Horizonwalker, personally.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-15, 06:32 PM
Oops a wounding weapon is 18 thousand, so that's still going to take a while till you can afford it :) Still it's the optimal weapon enhancement for TWF rangers.

gallagher
2009-09-15, 06:33 PM
In core, ranger is rather weak.

What in a ranger do you like? Perhaps we can suggest a good multiclass for you. I enjoy Ranger/Barbarian/Horizonwalker, personally.well i like the two-weapon fighting bit. i looked into horizon walker because i enjoy the knowledge part of the game. i also like the skill points.

i have a few questions about horizon walker. for instance, do i always get the bonuses (like the darkvision) or do they only come into affect when in the specific terrain?

being the only divine caster in the party, maybe something that keeps me a martial character but helps my healing ability?

PinkysBrain
2009-09-15, 06:34 PM
All your healing will come from wands, get used to it :)

Sallera
2009-09-15, 06:40 PM
Horizon Walker bonuses are always in effect. It's a good choice, there are several very nice abilities in there.

herrhauptmann
2009-09-15, 11:09 PM
SInce you're a ranger, what is your favored enemy? If you were a nonhuman, I'd suggest taking 'Human' as your favored enemy. Barring that, my recommendation is either Giant, or Dragon (others might have other suggestions). Both of those are monsters that can be thrown at you from level 4 to 20.

Since you're supposed to be core only, I doubt you'll be able to make these work, but look at this link pages 91-100 (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf). Especially the weapon styles on page 100.
Favored enemy Arcanists: is a great way to make local casters cry (complete mage or arcane)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-15, 11:59 PM
SInce you're a ranger, what is your favored enemy? If you were a nonhuman, I'd suggest taking 'Human' as your favored enemy. You could be a human with Human as your favored enemy. All that means is that you've got a lot of experience/training fighting humans, which is perfectly reasonable given that the majority of the people in the world are probably humans.

herrhauptmann
2009-09-16, 02:07 AM
You could be a human with Human as your favored enemy. All that means is that you've got a lot of experience/training fighting humans, which is perfectly reasonable given that the majority of the people in the world are probably humans.

Doesn't that require you to be evil?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-16, 02:07 AM
Doesn't that require you to be evil?

No, why should it?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 02:12 AM
No, why should it?

In 3.0, it did. 3.5 removed the "gotta be evil to know how to fight your own kind" clause...

herrhauptmann
2009-09-16, 02:13 AM
I might be remembering 3.0 rangers, where the only way to take favored enemy 'your race' was to be evil.
I know there were discussions on this regarding good drow rangers who try to fight evil drow raiding parties.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-16, 02:15 AM
I'd argue against it anyways. Most soldiers or special forces IRL (such as the Rangers?) would be expected to have Favored Enemy: Human, but they aren't inherently evil.

ericgrau
2009-09-16, 10:03 AM
Class: Rangers are not for the inexperienced martial character players. They are weaker than other martial characters in all things martial, and must rely on their skills and utility spells to make up for it. So if you want to play a ranger I'd learn the skill rules fast and hope your DM knows them too. I mean a ranger that never gets asked to make survival checks to keep the party away from quicksand (or w/e) or knowledge(nature) checks loses a big chunk of his class right there. I hope your DM is savy in this area so that smart parties always bring a ranger into the wilderness, but you may have to switch classes. Perhaps play a "ranger" flavored barbarian, "ranger" only when roleplaying. OTOH at least you can heal between combat with a wand (below), but that only saves a little gp on the cost of potions.

Gear: Bracers of armor grant an armor bonus so they don't stack with mundane armor. A masterwork weapon already gives a +1 to hit hit, so you only get +1 damage from making it magical. Not worth it unless you're worried about monsters that resist non-magical weapons. You can use wands with spells on your spell list at any level, even if you can't even cast 1st level spells yet. With 5400 gp I'd get some masterwork weapons, a +1 mithral shirt, a wand of cure light wounds, some strong emergency cure potions (party should still do the same, CLW won't cut it in emergencies) and any miscellaneous utility potions you might want. From there you have room for your cloak of resistance, and/or a ring of protection +1, and/or an amulet of natural armor +1 and/or a handy haversack and/or just save up and/or get other misc. stuff. Take your pick. Two weapon fighters are weak on damage but work well with effects that trigger several times on many attacks like favored enemy bonus damage. Getting two +1 spell storing weapons when you can afford it is likewise an excellent option. Just make sure the party arcane caster will have spells with a "Target:______" line to store in the weapons.

gallagher
2009-09-16, 12:21 PM
Class: Rangers are not for the inexperienced martial character players. They are weaker than other martial characters in all things martial, and must rely on their skills and utility spells to make up for it. So if you want to play a ranger I'd learn the skill rules fast and hope your DM knows them too. I mean a ranger that never gets asked to make survival checks to keep the party away from quicksand (or w/e) or knowledge(nature) checks loses a big chunk of his class right there. I hope your DM is savy in this area so that smart parties always bring a ranger into the wilderness, but you may have to switch classes. Perhaps play a "ranger" flavored barbarian, "ranger" only when roleplaying. OTOH at least you can heal between combat with a wand (below), but that only saves a little gp on the cost of potions.

Gear: Bracers of armor grant an armor bonus so they don't stack with mundane armor. A masterwork weapon already gives a +1 to hit hit, so you only get +1 damage from making it magical. Not worth it unless you're worried about monsters that resist non-magical weapons. You can use wands with spells on your spell list at any level, even if you can't even cast 1st level spells yet. With 5400 gp I'd get some masterwork weapons, a +1 mithral shirt, a wand of cure light wounds, some strong emergency cure potions (party should still do the same, CLW won't cut it in emergencies) and any miscellaneous utility potions you might want. From there you have room for your cloak of resistance, and/or a ring of protection +1, and/or an amulet of natural armor +1 and/or a handy haversack and/or just save up and/or get other misc. stuff. Take your pick. Two weapon fighters are weak on damage but work well with effects that trigger several times on many attacks like favored enemy bonus damage. Getting two +1 spell storing weapons when you can afford it is likewise an excellent option. Just make sure the party arcane caster will have spells with a "Target:______" line to store in the weapons.

i took care of the armor thing, and did get a +1 mithril shirt.

but for those who are interested, i have a few small updates on the game, and if anyone wishes to give me some coaching from time to time if i can ask via PM i would be very grateful.

anyway, updates on the game. seeing that i am the primary (aka, only) divine caster in the party, we decided not needing a cleric, so we have an extra arcane caster. we ran immediately into a house that we are currently locked into until a storm passes that is filled with undead. we got through most of them seeing that our casters all have plenty of magic missiles and other useful spells (we got lucky against a wraith that put our primary fighter to 5 CON by shooting a scorching ray into melee) and that i and our primary fighter both have +1 weapons.

we also wandered blindly across two weapons that we have a vague knowledge of thanks to being low level and not having Identify yet. our first was a circlet that we used what we think is its only charge, or its only charge for the day (had a scorching light or something) and also a magical BS that we know at least has an enchantment on it (thank you detect magic). from what i can tell this means that our DM might be giving us a few things that will help us out because both items seem to be too powerful to just find at level 4. we still have one major bad undead to face (probs another wraith) because my survival check was perfect (max ranks, have at least 5 ranks in all my knowledges, and i rolled a 20, which he made me roll a second d20 and add 20 to that.) so we know that the storm is not a natural one. also we found a ghost guide kind of thing that told us that her and her party's demise was in similar conditions (locked in, wraith killing them all except her, she died naturally while hiding in the basement so she isnt a wraith, and it happened during a storm)

and another plea for advice, should i dual wield BS's and go -4/-4, or stick with what i have been doing in the house and just two-handing a BS for 1.5 dmg. and if i go one-weaponed, which BS do you guys think i should go with?

EDIT: the circlet was at least a minor circlet of blasting. i was just perusing the DMG and ran across it. i am almost positive now that the BS is also something extra fun since it was in a locked chest that was right next to the dead ghost guide (a halfling) that had the circlet

jiriku
2009-09-16, 01:57 PM
I'd recommend against dual-wielding bastard swords unless you get a magical sword that eliminates the penalty. The additional -2 to hit is terrible, while the extra 2-4 points of damage for using a bigger weapon doesn't help as much as you'd think.

You've done well with your skill choices, and it sounds like they're paying off for you.

When you get your next ability point, put it in Strength. For the reasons described above, this will help you a lot.

In core, dual-wield and two-handed wield are both good, although two-hander preserves your mobility better and takes fewer feats. Bastard sword is really best for people who want the option of switching from one style to the other - unfortunately, the game rewards you more for picking one and sticking with it. So, you really have three options:

1.) If you want to continue to use a bastard sword, I'd get a magic shortsword to use with TWF, then learn the Quickdraw feat. This will allow you to quickly switch between archery, running around and two-handing your big sword, or standing firm and full-attacking with both swords. Try to get two weapons made of differing materials, like adamantine and cold iron, to maximize your flexibility. Understand that this is not the most powerful choice, but it does preserve your flexibility and allow you to quickly adapt to different tactical situations. If you play SMART, you might find yourself outperforming more specialized ranger builds.

2.) If you want to focus on TWF exclusively, see if the DM will let you swap EWP: BS for something else like weapon focus: shortsword. Dual-wield a pair of shortswords (so weapon focus applies to both), or use a longsword and a shortsword, if not getting weapon focus. Stay away from Whirlwind Attack - it's a trap! Try to get magic weapons that offer the largest bonus to hit, rather than specials that add to damage - you need as much accuracy as you can get to overcome the -2 penalty.

3.) If you want to focus on two-handing, see if the DM will let you swap EWP: BS for something else like power attack or cleave or weapon focus. Use a greatsword, not a bastard sword. See if the DM will let you change your ranger combat style to archery - this way you have two well-developed combat strategies, both melee and ranged. Get power attack, and consider cleave. Don't worry overmuch about full-attacking; instead focus on dealing lots of damage in one swing and reserving your move action for moving. Consider putting a few skill points in Tumble and getting an item of + tumble.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-16, 02:21 PM
and another plea for advice, should i dual wield BS's and go -4/-4, or stick with what i have been doing in the house and just two-handing a BS for 1.5 dmg.
1.5 strength bonus to damage, not 1.5 damage. Why do you have your 18 in dex BTW? Anyway, just do the math ... unless that takes the magic away for you :)

Lets say you have 75% chance of hitting with a one hander at the moment on average. So that's .75*(5.5+1.5x3+1) = 8.25.

On a full attack dual wielding with a masterwork short sword would give .65*(5.5+1x3+1) + .65*(3.5+.5*3) = 9.425

On a full attack dual wielding with a masterwork bastard sword would give .55*(5.5+1x3+1) + .55*(5.5+.5*3) = 9.075

Bonus damage will improve TWF, but it will improve attacking with a light off hand weapon relatively more.

tl.dr version : dual wielding bastard swords ... don't do it. Also TWF is really terrible without bonus damage per hit, a little extra damage ONLY on full attacks and you actually lose damage on all the times you can't make a full attack ... this is why generally the bow ranger is the superior ranger, even for a ranger who wants to be in melee most of the time.

gallagher
2009-09-16, 02:42 PM
1.5 strength bonus to damage, not 1.5 damage. Why do you have your 18 in dex BTW? Anyway, just do the math ... unless that takes the magic away for you :)

Lets say you have 75% chance of hitting with a one hander at the moment on average. So that's .75*(5.5+1.5x3+1) = 8.25.

On a full attack dual wielding with a masterwork short sword would give .65*(5.5+1x3+1) + .65*(3.5+.5*3) = 9.425

On a full attack dual wielding with a masterwork bastard sword would give .55*(5.5+1x3+1) + .55*(5.5+.5*3) = 9.075

Bonus damage will improve TWF, but it will improve attacking with a light off hand weapon relatively more.

tl.dr version : dual wielding bastard swords ... don't do it. Also TWF is really terrible without bonus damage per hit, a little extra damage ONLY on full attacks and you actually lose damage on all the times you can't make a full attack ... this is why generally the bow ranger is the superior ranger, even for a ranger who wants to be in melee most of the time.

eh, i knew the 1.5 str bonus, i just was thinking too fast to type it.

i went with 18 dex because i wanted a bit more defense, seeing that i am putting myself into harms way more than an archer. i grabbed a composite longbow just in case i need the range so i can use it if needed. and i am going to up my strength at 8th level to 18, it was just a question of preference. would i rather be harder to hit early, or hit harder? i decided i would like to get hit less and flank the bejeezus out of anything that gets near my party.

and thanks for doing the math. i am in my most mathematics related course atm (economics. easy, intuitive, and the most math you ever have to do is on a calculator.) so i dont want to do any more math than i have to.

ericgrau
2009-09-16, 04:19 PM
I should have mentioned taking favored enemy: undead, given how common they are. Unless you already know the campaign will be full of something else. If you screwed up there you can THF, TWF or w/e. But if you see your favored enemy a lot, I'd stick with the ranger's built in TWF or archery to get lots of favored enemy damage. As said you can also switch back and forth depending on whether or not you see your favored enemy, and whether doing a single attack or full attack. And - in a core-only game - even without bonus damage TWF isn't too far behind THF. Most people in core or low non-core games don't notice the difference.