PDA

View Full Version : Character Build Challenge: Zangief



elliott20
2009-09-15, 11:26 PM
Hey guys, how would one go about building a Zangief a la Street Fighter 2?

A couple of things that he would need:

- obviously, grappling skills
- some way to imitate a spinning pile drive
- some way to imitate the green hand attack
- try not to rely on polymorph if you can possibly help it

beyond that, that's it.

assume that all 3.5 books are open.

some of the stuff I have found but haven't put together yet:
Stone Dragon seems to have a couple maneuvers that can help

Earth's Embrace is... a potential contender, I suppose.

Improved Grapple is a no brainer

anything that improves unarmed damages are no brainers

but I couldn't figure out how to bridge the size gaps.

tyckspoon
2009-09-15, 11:43 PM
Hmm. Well, the Setting Sun strikes have judo as their default flavor, but the mechanics are a lot more like what Street Fighter throws actually do (damage+pitch your opponent halfway across the battlefield.) I'd probably start there. Earth's Embrace or some other form of Constrict attack would give you the bearhug grapple. Spinning Lariat would be.. what's it called.. Mithril Tornado? The Green Hand attack is.. interesting, but I think maybe a touch attack Unarmed Strike with full Power Attack would do, so Emerald Razor or Deep Impact if you don't mind going into psionics. I'm thinking you'd probably be looking at an Unarmed Swordsage/Warblade multiclass as the quick-and-dirty method.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 11:49 PM
Add in improved grapple, and make the character a Goliath. A setting sun maneuver or two would be nice, for his grab-and-toss maneuvers. Spinning piledriver's a bit more complex, however. I'll have to think about a way to travel with your foe without damaging yourself. Perhaps a -20 to grapple to not be considered grappling, followed by a jump/tumble... I will think on it.

elliott20
2009-09-15, 11:55 PM
Add in improved grapple, and make the character a Goliath. A setting sun maneuver or two would be nice, for his grab-and-toss maneuvers. Spinning piledriver's a bit more complex, however. I'll have to think about a way to travel with your foe without damaging yourself. Perhaps a -20 to grapple to not be considered grappling, followed by a jump/tumble... I will think on it.
This issue that you brought up, has pretty much been one that I've been wrestling with (get it?! HAHA, I'm so funny!) for a while.

That and the size issue.

I'm pretty sure that at the end of the day, the easiest way to do the SPD would be to either re-do one of the setting sun throws, or make a whole brand spanking new maneuver somewhere.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 11:59 PM
Fly and a few levels of fighter for dungeoncrasher? Move a grapple up, and bullrush it down? Charging Minotaur?

elliott20
2009-09-16, 12:34 AM
hmm... still seems kinda clunky.

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 12:37 AM
The "Green Hand" blocks projectiles, which might actually be the more relevant part to figure out; some standard action that can deflect Rays/such.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 12:39 AM
The "Green Hand" blocks projectiles, which might actually be the more relevant part to figure out; some standard action that can deflect Rays/such.

There's an ACF in Complete Mage that lets you deflect rays, much like arrows.

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 12:41 AM
There's an ACF in Complete Mage that lets you deflect rays, much like arrows.

Hmm, Swordsage could technically qualify for Spell Reflection. Though it merely blocks them, which would be more loyal if one could find a way to do it... Spellfire works, I guess, but feels sorta weird. Not to mention, sucks.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 12:42 AM
Find a way to get access to the second level spell Ray Deflection (SpC).

1 level of sorceror + precocious Apprentice?

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 12:46 AM
Find a way to get access to the second level spell Ray Deflection (SpC).

1 level of sorceror + precocious Apprentice?

Arcane Swordsage? [/Cheapshot]

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 12:48 AM
Arcane Swordsage? [/Cheapshot]

It's an example of a spell that does fit with the AS theme, oddly enough.

elliott20
2009-09-16, 02:19 AM
... while at first I totally balked at the idea of Zangief being an arcane swordsage the idea is actually starting to grow on me a little. (Though I still find it incredibly suboptimal, that's neither here nor there)

but basically, green hand can be split into several spells this way, i.e. one for ray deflection, one for actually damaging people, etc. but all of them would just be described as "green hand"

though, does this mean he can't take NORMAL swordsage levels to get the other SS maneuvers?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 02:23 AM
No, but the setting sun maneuvers indicated would be just as easily covered by the fling enemy feat, and Warblade would give tiger's claw for jumping ability (a few levels would be all you need, just for the stance that boosts jump checks and sudden leap). There are several spells that improve grapple checks, which could easily be used with Arcane Swordsage.

elliott20
2009-09-16, 02:32 AM
this avenue bears exploring. to the Gief-mobile!!

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 02:58 AM
this avenue bears exploring. to the Gief-mobile!!

If you can find a way to always count as running for jumps, you're golden, otherwise, move at least 20 feet before jumping.

olentu
2009-09-16, 03:09 AM
That would be the leaping dragon stance if I recall correctly.

elliott20
2009-09-16, 03:19 AM
If I can make a jump a run as well, does that mean Zangief here could ALSO be an ubercharger too?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 03:30 AM
Problem with jump is that it violates the "straight line" clause of the charge action, when you look at the path from a 3d perspective. Provided you have a way around that, you can. Leap Attack, I believe, is one such way, and complements ubercharger nicely.

Still, Zangief has quite a few abilities which don't complement an ubercharger build, and there'd likely be a bit of difficulty squeezing in everything that makes charging uber. That said, you could likely give him enough to make charging a solid second option. Shock Trooper, for example. When you go ubercharger, you also buff many things that improve bull rush (such as Combat Brute and it's feat requirement, Improved Bull Rush... Charge also applies a bonus to bull rush). Bull rush receives benefits from many of the things that boost grapple, as well (Size, Strength). And if you're going Warblade anyway, Charging Minotaur is an excellent choice.

elliott20
2009-09-16, 04:08 AM
so it seems one of the first things I need to do is bone up on my "bullrush"-fu, since this is the first time I've ever seen Bullrush being used in place of a grappling move.

but it does bear some interesting ideas. Though, how much of this would jive well with the rules and how much of it is basically houseruling?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 04:55 AM
All of it's rules legal.

You determine whether you'd rather move your opponent, tie up your opponent, or throw your opponent.

If you need to move him, use bull rush to push (with Shock Trooper's Domino ability to redirect where he goes). Alternately, grapple him and throw him where you want him.

If you want to tie up, grapple.

It's not that you're using bull rush in place of grapple, it's that many things which make the one stronger, also help the other. Strength and size, for example. A lot of things that improve charging also improve bull rush. Heck, the act of charging alone gives you bullrush bonuses.

If you can slip in 2 levels of fighter, you'll get a bonus feat, and you can take the Dungeoncrasher fighter variant (Dungeonscape), for additional bull rush bonuses and damage.

You can also use the Arcane Swordsage to Enlarge yourself, for more bonuses. There's a ton of tricks, and this could actually be pretty versatile. For real fun, the limited polymorph spells in Complete Mage/PHb2 would be fun for this as well, as would the XXX of the WereXXX spells in SpC.

elliott20
2009-09-16, 05:12 AM
sweet. Okay, so here's what I got so far on paper,

4 levels of arcane swordsage to get some level 2 spells. (You said deflect ray is a level 2, right?)

2 levels of dungeoncrasher variant. (would 6 work better since the bonus increases or would these 4 levels be better spent elsewhere?

and then load the rest up on warblade.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 05:55 AM
sweet. Okay, so here's what I got so far on paper,

4 levels of arcane swordsage to get some level 2 spells. (You said deflect ray is a level 2, right?)

2 levels of dungeoncrasher variant. (would 6 work better since the bonus increases or would these 4 levels be better spent elsewhere?

and then load the rest up on warblade.

I just went to books. Ray Deflection is level 4. I believe Arcane Swordsage gets that at level 7. Follow with 2 levels of fighter, and add Warblade to the end. If you really want, add in Bloodstorm Blade, and see if your DM will allow enemies to be returning, lol. That's just silly though.

If you go 8 levels of swordsage, you'll keep the same initiator level for warblade, and gain another spell in exchange for a couple maneuvers. Likely not a bad idea.

Even so, I'd focus on Swordsage over Warblade for this. You don't need many maneuvers to handle all of the jumping stuff you need. Likely, 4 levels of Warblade is all you'll ever need.

Swordsage 8 / Fighter 2 / Warblade 4 / Swordsage 9-14 is a decent build for this.

woodenbandman
2009-09-16, 08:34 AM
Anthropomorphic Bear Werebear Bear Totem Barbearian Bear Warrior.

oxybe
2009-09-16, 09:09 AM
human monk/cleric/sacred fist. focus on Str & Wis.

-grappling skill: improved grapple + Divine Power = win
-spinning pile driver : charge+grapple+Still Spell Updraft (spell compendium)
-green fist : Harm/inflict spells

for added fun, sandstorm has a feat that essentially gives you the monster version of "improved grab" i forget it's prereqs. it allows you to grab as part of an attack with a light weapon.

take the imp.grapple & the sandstorm feat, Powerful charge/greater Powerful charge (eberron), imp. natural attack multiple times. also monk's belt.

it's crude & unoptimized but to see a gm's face when you tell him that you charge at the enemy, unceremoniously grab him, jump a hundred feet in the air and drive him into the ground... beautiful.

elliott20
2009-09-16, 11:34 AM
heh, that's kinda nice too.

thanks phoenixrivers. I really am just doing this to do as a mental exercise to see just exactly how versatile ToB is. My goal is to try to recreate as many fighting game characters as possible.

MightyIgoo
2009-09-16, 11:57 AM
Heh. I pretty much already did this, except in the 7th Sea roll-and-keep system. Man, the look on my GM's face was priceless when I asked him if I could break a grappled mob's neck...