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Runus
2009-09-16, 01:12 AM
Right now i'm in an epic level (23) campaign, and playing a melee class. But we don't have a cleric. Only healing that we have is the paladin and bard(lol).

I would like to know a good way to make a good melee/healer cleric. all books are availible. I know about DMM and nightsticks (need to ask the DM about that trick.) Any help would be awesome, thanks :D

WeeFreeMen
2009-09-16, 01:33 AM
Melee / Healer Cleric is Easy

Play a Cleric.
The end.

Grab DMM: Persist Meta line.
Cheese it up

Iouon Stones, etc etc (+CL Cheese)

For Domains:
Strength Domain (+23 Encht bonus to your Str? Free action? Yes please) or War Domain (Free Proficiency and Wep Focus but most importantly, Divine power as a Domain Spell. Tastey if persisted)

and since you want to be a healer, you can opt to take the Healing Domain, get the Feat were you spend a turn attempt and all Heal spells in a X Radius of you are Maximized (FOR FREE) for 1 turn. (I love that feat, bt I cant think of the name. I think its Com. Champ? )

As for Items..Have fun in MIC.
I recommend a Wand of Healing Staff of some kind
The rest is really just buffing yourself for Melee.

Your basically asking for Clericzilla, which is pretty easy, especially at lv 23.
Best of Luck.

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 01:40 AM
On those levels, you can truly Zilla it up. Giant Size: +32 Size to Str, Colossal. Bite of the Werebear: +16 Enhancement to Str (don't bother with Strength-domain; honestly), bunch of other bonuses. Draconic Polymorph into e.g. Firbolg: 36 base Str, +8 from the spell. This alone gets your Str to 92. You can use Miracle to get Giant Size & Bite that don't normally appear on Cleric list.

Then you can start trying. Divine Power is obvious for bigger Power Attack (thanks to your Str giving you obscene To Hit, you can always Power Attack for full), Holy Transformation & Greater Visage of the Deity are nice all-around buffs. Girallon's Blessing + Fuse Arms for some more obscene Strength-increases, a crapton of stacking save boosts (Conviction, Recitation, Superior Resistance, etc.) and all the Greater Magic Weapons & Magic Vestments on every applicable piece of equipment.

You'll probably be best off with a Monk's Belt and just enhancing your clothing with Magic Vestment. Owl's Insight through Miracle would give you obscene Wis increase. Something to Persist again. Oh, and Divine Agility and Holy Star and Surge of Fortune and so on. Lots of stuff to do with it. You really only want PHB and Spell Compendium; Complete Champion contains few handy spells and Draconomicon has Draconic Polymorph. That's about it.


You can also cast Mass Heals and Chained Heals and such pretty easily, making healing darn simple, and Revivify means you can undo any quick deaths very easily.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-16, 01:52 AM
Bite of the Werebear: +16 Enhancement to Str (don't bother with Strength-domain; honestly)

Aren't the bite spell Sorc/Wiz or Druid only? you mean through items?

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 02:00 AM
Aren't the bite spell Sorc/Wiz or Druid only? you mean through items?

All "class limitations" are moot thanks to Miracle. He's got access to level 9 Cleric casting so he can access any spell of 7th level of lower at no cost daily (unlike Wish, standard uses of Miracle have no XP cost), which includes Giant Size, Bite of the Werebear and Draconic Polymorph without any worry about domain access (though domain access exists for most of the handy buff spells too; still, I'd rather pick generally useful domains like Anyspells, Moments of Prescience, Foresights, Time Stops and such in Domain-slots).

Really, without XP cost mitigation, Miracle is the single best level 9 spell in the game (well ok, maybe matched by Shapechange and possibly Time Stop).

Keld Denar
2009-09-16, 02:08 AM
You can get Giant Size on the cleric list with the Heroism domain. That saves you from 1 miracle.

If you want to go loopy, you could try this:

Cleric4/Crusader1/RubyKnightVind10/OrdainedChampion5/Epic RKV3

Or something. I dunno much about epic, but pre-epic, that build is solid. Very fighty, very smity, very...yea, good enough. Doesn't even need Divine Power, since its 19/20 BAB and you'll get a much bigger Str bonus from Giant Size or Bite of the Werebear or even a +6 str item.

Cruader and RKV are in Tome of Battle, Ordained Champion is in Complete Champion. There is some fluff mix/match between RKV and OC, although both have the lawful bend going, so depending on your DM's campaign, yea, check with your DM.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-16, 02:08 AM
Eldariel:

Even if I allowed similar things to my players (expecially in solo adventures), a Miracle (nobody discuss its power) should be one thing that is requested, nont casted. Your DM allows or not allows to use it this way.

I admit I use something like a double standard since I allowed it (our cleric and OAdv shaman didn't zilled, party balance was kept and requests were reasonable) but one could think that the deity could be upset if you continuously ask miracles to her.

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 02:14 AM
Eldariel:

Even if I allowed similar things to my players (expecially in solo adventures), a Miracle (nobody discuss its power) should be one thing that is requested, nont casted. Your DM allows or not allows to use it this way.

I admit I use something like a double standard since I allowed it (our cleric and OAdv shaman didn't zilled, party balance was kept and requests were reasonable) but one could think that the deity could be upset if you continuously ask miracles to her.

*shrug* I really don't see how that makes one ounce of a difference. A level 17 Cleric is probably going to request Miracles daily and frankly, if going Clericzilla and thus worshipping a martial deity, I don't see why the said deity would decide "No, I don't want you to smite my enemies anymore."

Also, assuming that deities "got upset over continuous Miracles" feels way too much like humanizing deities. They're completely alien entities; basically just alignments & portfolios taken to their logical extremes. In my mind they're way beyond human emotion such as "getting upset" or "tired" of something happening.

Also, many worlds work perfectly without deities getting involved in anything. Indeed, I think FR is the only settings where deities are so strongly present that you have to worship a deity to get spells; just the fact that you can worship an ideal and still get your Miracles makes me believe such flavour limitations are completely pointless.


And honestly, FR Clerics are basically mediums of their deities and the stronger the Cleric, the more of the deity's power he can channel so given that deities get into the whole "I wanna channel my powers through a mortal medium to the material plane"-game, you'd think they'd just be happy to channel their greatest powers through Miracle to make the largest impact. It's basically the ultima in your ability to channel your deity's power; you'd think every granted Miracle would specifically be a realization of all your Deity's goals with regards to you.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-16, 02:25 AM
*shrug* I really don't see how that makes one ounce of a difference. A level 17 Cleric is probably going to request Miracles daily and frankly, if going Clericzilla and thus worshipping a martial deity, I don't see why the said deity would decide "No, I don't want you to smite my enemies anymore."


I was just thinking to this:



From SRD
You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.


I repeat, the way the DM follows this advice depends from the campaign an from the tastes (myself, I allowed it several times in epic), but I see that if the designer put that sentence, there were a reason.

Deities have stat block, size, and so on: I guess in D&D are quite humanized. Even if you worship an ideal, you IMHO take energy from the outer planes, I guess.

There are no precise rules and there are not proofs about how much divine power can be used (and if it ends after a while) but the above makes me think that miracle is not a spell made to be spammed.

If spamming it makes your game better, good (for myself, it did in several times). But this is another issue.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-16, 02:50 AM
What's the difference between asking a god for divine power and asking one for giant size? In one case you ask for a spell that'll make you better at thumping things, in the other you ask for a spell that'll make you better at thumping things.

Why would a god grant one but not the other? Does he want his clerics to get themselves killed, or what?

woodenbandman
2009-09-16, 09:30 AM
Why think small? Miracle for Greater Arcane Fusion for Polymorph and Bite of the Werebear rolled into one.

EDIT: What the heck is the Heroism domain? I can't find it anywhere.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-16, 09:34 AM
Worship an Ideal.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-16, 09:36 AM
Why think small? Miracle for Greater Arcane Fusion for Polymorph and Bite of the Werebear rolled into one.

EDIT: What the heck is the Heroism domain? I can't find it anywhere.

Greater Arcane Fusion is 8th level Arcane spell (Sorcerer only). Miracle can't duplicate it without using the method that costs XP, and only if the Cleric's deity knows Arcane Fusion (not many do...).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-16, 09:40 AM
Worship the Deity of Sorcerers?

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 09:42 AM
Why think small? Miracle for Greater Arcane Fusion for Polymorph and Bite of the Werebear rolled into one.

EDIT: What the heck is the Heroism domain? I can't find it anywhere.

Hero-domain is from Oriental Adventures. I maintain that it's far less hassle just to use Miracle, especially since the Hero-domain is otherwise very meh.

jiriku
2009-09-16, 10:19 AM
Quicken spell is an obvious choice.

If your DM allows metamagic feats like Reach Spell and Chain Spell to stack, then you can use those two in combination to affect many allies or enemies at once with any of the many fine touch-range cleric spells.

The Dweomerkeeper prestige class from the Complete Divine web expansion is an excellent choice for epic, as it allows you to spontaneously caset more spells, avoid enemy spell resistance, avoid paying XP costs on your most powerful spells, and reduce all metamagic costs by 1 (minimum one). With the Magical Training feat, you can get into Dweomerkeeper without reducing your caster level, but honestly, at epic maybe you'd prefer to take a level of Wizard (conjurer) and pick up the abrupt jaunt ACF to bolster your defenses.

Feats like Metamagic School Focus and Residual Magic allow you to swing even more metamagic at reduced cost. Those two are in Complete Mage.

The reason you want all this metamagic is that most of the combat-enhancing cleric spells are low- to mid-level spells, and so it's very feasible to quicken them, buff as a swift action, and spend your standard and full-round actions kicking butt. Likewise, you could use these feats to put a quickened heal in an 8th level slot, then quicken some regular heals from 6th level slots, and heal 150 hp per round as a swift action while still kicking butt with your other actions.

Runus
2009-09-16, 03:48 PM
i've been looking for a few of the spells, but can't find them: Giant Size, Fuse Arms, Holy Transformation, Greater Visage of the Deity, Divine Agility, Holy Star, and Surge of Fortune.

What sort of feats should i be taking besides the meta-magic ones? And how much gold do i start with at level 23? i can't find the starting gold chart anywhere.

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 03:56 PM
i've been looking for a few of the spells, but can't find them: Giant Size, Fuse Arms, Holy Transformation, Greater Visage of the Deity, Divine Agility, Holy Star, and Surge of Fortune.

They are all in Spell Compendium save for Surge of Fortune which is Complete Champion. They've been printed in earlier sources too, but those vary (Complete Arcane has Giant Size IIRC, and Holy Transformation & Visage are either BoED or Complete Divine) and SC is the most up-to-date source.


iWhat sort of feats should i be taking besides the meta-magic ones? And how much gold do i start with at level 23? i can't find the starting gold chart anywhere.

DMG. 1.5 million. Also, Extra Turning is always good for a feat. Divine Metamagic is obvious, as is Divine Spell Power (if you have Nightstick stackings for infinite Turn Undeads, just fuel the various Divine feats). Domain Spontaneity is great too provided you again have Turns for it. Power Attack is a must if you plan on melee.

Runus
2009-09-16, 04:30 PM
DM said that nightsticks won't stack D:

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 04:31 PM
DM said that nightsticks won't stack D:

Lots of Extra Turning to fuel DMM: Persist then.

Mando Knight
2009-09-16, 05:12 PM
DM said that nightsticks won't stack D:

Regardless, a good healer cleric is one that doesn't prepare any cure spells. You cast those spontaneously, save your prepared slots for things that are useful in other ways, like melee buffs and Dispel Magic.

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 05:16 PM
Regardless, a good healer cleric is one that doesn't prepare any cure spells. You cast those spontaneously, save your prepared slots for things that are useful in other ways, like melee buffs and Dispel Magic.

The only healing worth using are Wand of Lesser Vigor, Healing Belt and Heal the spell (along with Mass Heal once all of the 250 HP healed is actually relevant). Rest are mostly waste of your (and everyone else's time).

Just Persist Vigorous Circle on the party, btw, to give everyone Fast Healing 3 and avoid the annoying "how much HP do you need"s after each fight.

jiriku
2009-09-16, 10:21 PM
A reliquary amulet from MiC will give you two extra turn undead attempts for 1000g, provided you meet the minor prerequisites.

For my cleric, I am fond of Law Devotion, although it will compete with your DMM: Persist. It will give you +7 to hit or to AC when you need it, which is better than many buff spells. Knowledge Devotion is good if you are a cloistered cleric, as you can easily get your skills up to where KD will give you +5 to hit and damage against all opponents.

But if nightsticks don't stack, then yeah, mostly you want Extra Turning. With, say, Charisma 24 (base 14+4 inherent+6 enhancement) plus reliquary amulet plus nightstick plus Extra Turning x2, you can get 24 turn attempts per day. With Dweomerkeeper 10 and Metamagic School Focus, you could prep 4 persisted spells in their regular slots, 3 more persisted spells at spell level+4, and say, two first level spells persisted at spell level +5. So, pick your nine best personal or fixed-range spells, and now they last all day. Profit.

Good epic feats for you would be multispell, improved spell capacity, or permanent emanation.

Runus
2009-09-17, 10:13 PM
would taking Radiant Servant of Pelor be a good PrC to take?

Nohwl
2009-09-17, 10:16 PM
yeah, rsop is normally good. its awesome if the game is undead heavy.

Mando Knight
2009-09-17, 10:25 PM
Just Persist Vigorous Circle on the party, btw, to give everyone Fast Healing 3 and avoid the annoying "how much HP do you need"s after each fight.

Ah, yeah. I don't have the Spell Compendium, so I keep forgetting about the Vigor spells. (even though I always make sure to have them prepared in NWN2...)

HCL
2009-09-17, 10:31 PM
Grab a wand of something for between combat and concentrate on kickin ass.

Runus
2009-09-17, 11:05 PM
With Dweomerkeeper 10 and Metamagic School Focus, you could prep 4 persisted spells in their regular slots.

How does that work? =o