The ultimate D&D 3.5 munchkin character (in neverwinter nights 2)

[Dingdongtudelu]

Hello! I posted this message earlier in another thread, but as the original post was not about the same topic, I'm afraid people might have overlooked the question. I'd love some help with it though, hence the repost. Let me know if I'm being too spammy. I'll delete the post entirely if it's too bothersome.

Here goes:

As I am sitting here at work, I'm contemplating what kind of spellcasting characters I could create, and my mind got stuck with the eldritch knight this time. To save you all some reading time, I ended up with the idea of having a powerful melee character that still has 20 base caster levels, hereby retaining his ability to cast the maximum amount of level 9 spells (mostly used to buff himself and debuff his oponents). Oh, the character needed to have a pretty high BAB too. I wanted to hit really well, not just so-so.

To top it all off, I wanted to get a little bit of a weaponmaster going, because you know, cool.

Now, because I still hate wizards and love sorcerers, I figured I'd start from a base sorcerer class and work my way from there. The problem I'm now facing is: feats. The Sor/EK/WM combo is already pretty hard to get going feat-wise, but add in the fact that I want weapon focus/spec (because otherwise I wouldn't be able to hit worth a damn), cleave AND great cleave, and preferably two weapon fighting (to perfect, hate offhand misses), with a possible addition of practiced spellcaster...you can see what kind of a pickle I'm in.

Don't leave yet! I think I have actually found a way to pull it off. read below:

The base configuration for this is Sor/EK/WM. Just the amount of feats required to get that going (with the harsh reqs for the WM) adds up to 7. I need to get 10sor/10K going too, because I want my base level 20 casting class. I want 7 levels in WM, for the Ki critical, leaving me with an obligatory 10Sor/10EK/7WM base, and 7 feats gone.

Additional feats I want are (read below for why I split it up there):
a) Cleave, great cleave, all foci(3), all specs(3)
b) perfect TWF (4) and practiced spellcaster.

....yyyeah.

Ok, as I obviously can't have everything, I see 2 paths here. I either use a 2hander and go the foci/spec way, or I pick the TWF way and lose some AB/damage.

I can get a bonus feat from being human, and most of those feats, I can get as bonus feats from the fighter class. So here I am with my Sor10/EK10/WM7/F3 build. Looks horrible, I know, but this abomination gives me 12(level 30)+1(Human)+2(bonus fighter)=15 feats! It also provides me with 3 high BAB classes, and 2 classes that give almost full caster progression. ****, I just noticed I actually only have level 19 there, with the first crappy EK level. I'll add that as a question below.

Excluding the 7 I need for the combo, that leaves me with 8 feats to play around with. If I choose path a, I'm set.

The questions I have are:
a) Can I do this? I have no idea if it's possible or not. I was just browsing the wiki to create this character.
b) Will it be worth anything at all?
c) Can you spot its weaknesses?
d) Can you find a way to fix the base caster level that's only 19, due to the first EK level not allowing spell progression?

Thanks in advance for the expert replies!
D.

[Rustic Dude]

Yeah, you can do that...but that's....LEVEL 30. I don't think you will be able to reach those levels.

And it has a big weak point: it's a glass cannon. That build requires decent stats in all except Wisdom, and you'll want to have very high CHA for the big spells. So you'll have not very good Dexterity and not very good Constitution. Low CA, low hit-points. (And d4 hit point for 10 levels, d6 for another 10.)

Oh, and you won't be able to take uber epic-class feats.

[JeminiZero]

Yeah, you can do that...but that's....LEVEL 30. I don't think you will be able to reach those levels.


He can if he has the MoTB expansion pack.

Anyway, you could take a look at the standard sorcerer gishes first. NWN2wikia has 2 builds listed: Eldritch Paladin (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Eldritch_Paladin_of_Candlekeep_Pal(4),Sor(6),EK(10 ),ASC(10)) (which is more defensive focused) or Knightly Sorc (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Knightly_Sorcerer_Sor(6),Pal(4),EK(10),ASC(10)) (which is more offensively focused). Arcane Scholar provides such a powerful bonus (namely quickened forceful hand) for Sorcs that very few builds go without it. Paladin of course has the handy bonus to saves and turn undead.

[Rustic Dude]

He can if he has the MoTB expansion pack.



I know. But it's impossible to achieve that level in the campaigns, and almost impossible in a PW.

[SparkMandriller]

The Sor/EK/WM combo is already pretty hard to get going feat-wise, but add in the fact that I want weapon focus/spec (because otherwise I wouldn't be able to hit worth a damn), cleave AND great cleave, and preferably two weapon fighting (to perfect, hate offhand misses), with a possible addition of practiced spellcaster...you can see what kind of a pickle I'm in.

Why oh why does NWN2 not feature the Lightning Warrior? You coulda been gold. :(

[Dingdongtudelu]

Ah, I forgot to add that I start in the Mask of the Betrayer expansion. You start out as relative level 18 there, so getting to 30 isn't that much of an issue.

What CHA do you need to cast those level 9 spells? I thought it was 19. 19 doesn't strike me as a number that's incredibly hard to overcome. You can spend the rest of your attributes on str and con (or dex if you want TWF). This 'glass cannon' is a valid point though, and it will probably be one of its weaknesses. Then again, having a few premonitions and mage buffs will probably even that out, don't you think?

What are these uber-epic feats I'll be missing out on that you're mentioning? Are they that fantastic that I can't afford to miss out on them?

[Dingdongtudelu]

He can if he has the MoTB expansion pack.

Anyway, you could take a look at the standard sorcerer gishes first. NWN2wikia has 2 builds listed: Eldritch Paladin (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Eldritch_Paladin_of_Candlekeep_Pal(4),Sor(6),EK(10 ),ASC(10)) (which is more defensive focused) or Knightly Sorc (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Knightly_Sorcerer_Sor(6),Pal(4),EK(10),ASC(10)) (which is more offensively focused). Arcane Scholar provides such a powerful bonus (namely quickened forceful hand) for Sorcs that very few builds go without it. Paladin of course has the handy bonus to saves and turn undead.

I watched the standard builds on the NWN2 wiki, and none of the EK builds struck me as very impressive melee wise. What I'm trying to create is a melee monster. I don't think 14 levels of high BAB is going to accomplish that. It even says so in the knightly sorcerer description: "Medium BAB progression". I don't really want a hybrid fighter/mage. I think I want exactly what rustic dude described, a glass cannon, not using spells, but melee instead. The spell part is just to enhance and protect myself, while weakening my oponent. Is that not possible?

[Zincorium]

I watched the standard builds on the NWN2 wiki, and none of the EK builds struck me as very impressive melee wise. What I'm trying to create is a melee monster. I don't think 14 levels of high BAB is going to accomplish that. It even says so in the knightly sorcerer description: "Medium BAB progression". I don't really want a hybrid fighter/mage. I think I want exactly what rustic dude described, a glass cannon, not using spells, but melee instead. The spell part is just to enhance and protect myself, while weakening my oponent. Is that not possible?

It's not the best way of doing things.

Spellcasting means you sacrifice. If not in BAB, in class features. By saying "I want 9th level spells", you are saying "there are things I am willing to give up for 9th level spells" and those things are good.

Frenzied berserker is the primary glass cannon PrC, it can dish out far more damage in melee than anything else with similar buffs.

[Mando Knight]

I think I want exactly what rustic dude described, a glass cannon, not using spells, but melee instead. The spell part is just to enhance and protect myself, while weakening my oponent. Is that not possible?

So you're saying, "I want the best abilities in the game, and not use them so I can hit things with sticks."

If that's what you want, then you're better off going as Cleric and using Divine Power and Righteous Might.

[Dingdongtudelu]

That sorcerous dragon knight looks appealing to me, except that it has the paladin class as one of its combinations, but that can just as easily be replaced by blackguard, I suppose. I don't like divine magic, which is also the reason why I'm making needlessly complicated character designs instead of just playing cleric :).

I like the fact that it has 23BAB, which is only 2 less than what I was aiming for. I could replace the divine shield, empower and maximise feats with weapon foci too. Pity there's no dualwielding alternative for it.

Yes, I like hitting things with big weapons :p. I still love spells though!

[Rustic Dude]

I watched the standard builds on the NWN2 wiki, and none of the EK builds struck me as very impressive melee wise. What I'm trying to create is a melee monster. I don't think 14 levels of high BAB is going to accomplish that. It even says so in the knightly sorcerer description: "Medium BAB progression". I don't really want a hybrid fighter/mage. I think I want exactly what rustic dude described, a glass cannon, not using spells, but melee instead. The spell part is just to enhance and protect myself, while weakening my oponent. Is that not possible?

You could try, for the maximum damage, a Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/WeaponMaster. Or even better, a Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/WeaponMaster(you'll need less levels.). With Greatsword or Scythe.

With heavy armor you won't need more that 13 DEX for the feats, and you can drop WIS and CHA. 13 INT (Or 14 if you want some more skills) and focus on Strength. 14 Con and the FB's d12 hit points per level (And free Toughness!)will give you some extra resilience.

[Dingdongtudelu]

That sounds nice, rustic dude, but you just dumped the whole spell arsenal right there. I would still like my spells...

[Rustic Dude]

That sounds nice, rustic dude, but you just dumped the whole spell arsenal right there. I would still like my spells...

Yeah, but if you go with spells...you will be a jack of all trades, fairly good in a lot of things, but not truly good in anything.

The only thing that could work, by my opinion, is to get a few levels in Wizard(I know, you don't like it) and get intelligence at 14-16. that way you have acces to useful buffs like Mage Armor or Stone Skin.


....that thing you want...is hard to make it work without lowering too much the BAB and the hit points.

[Dingdongtudelu]

The thing with these mage combos is that magic can alter your perception of certain aspects of the game. You can get 'the bab' lost by your levels in the sorcerer class back by casting greater heroism. Similar effects apply to casting premonition or stoneskin, which does not increase your hitpoints, but decreases your damage intake. These spells can be used to transform your fragile wizard into a competent fighter.

What I'm trying to accomplish is using these spells to not turn a fragile caster into a warrior, but turn an already competent warrior into a killing machine.

I'm not looking to be fantastic in all areas. I just really want to hit stuff, hard. I would like it if I could use the already 9 levels of spells at my disposal, to improve my defense too. If a disjunction would royally screw me over because of that, so be it. I'll accept that as a major weakness for the character.

This sorcerer/EK combo gives access to all major protection spells, while offering high BAB on the EK part. I don't see how going wizard would help anything.

[Rustic Dude]

Well, I was suggesting you WeaponMaster/Wizard because both require INT to work.

It's the same principle than Paladin/sorcerer.

Making it that way, you optimize your stats allocation, being able to dump more than one stat.

Of course, Sorc/EK only works pretty well(Sorc/EK/WM, not so much), better if you throw there some Dragon Disciple levels.

[Dingdongtudelu]

Ah, an interesting reply. How does int help you in the weapon master prestige class?

You're basically advising me to go for the sorcerous dragon knight too, which has so far been the most viable option. Thanks for that. What I don't understand though, is why DD, and not WM? Because of how easy it is to get it, when you're already a sorcerer? Because of the extra strength, that enables you to reach the minimum str for epic divine might?

I noticed some synergy in the pal/sor/DD there, but wouldn't WM give you more global damage and higher BAB, instead of the extra +2 str? Isn't it possible to get epic divine might without taking levels in DD? Can the harsh feat requirements for WM be overcome in this combo?

[Rustic Dude]

Ah, an interesting reply. How does int help you in the weapon master prestige class?

You're basically advising me to go for the sorcerous dragon knight too, which has so far been the most viable option. Thanks for that. What I don't understand though, is why DD, and not WM? Because of how easy it is to get it, when you're already a sorcerer? Because of the extra strength, that enables you to reach the minimum str for epic divine might?

I noticed some synergy in the pal/sor/DD there, but wouldn't WM give you more global damage and higher BAB, instead of the extra +2 str? Isn't it possible to get epic divine might without taking levels in DD? Can the harsh feat requirements for WM be overcome in this combo?

Weapon Master requires Expertise, which requires 13 int. That's the reason I pair it with wizard.
Weapon Master give you humongous criticals, not more raw damage. For global damage and a two-hander...DD. About epic divine might, that's out of my knowledge.

[Archonic Energy]

may i ask which level 9 spells you want for buffing/debuffing?
i'm thinking that 3 level 6 spells should do the job...
Greater stoneskin
Tenser's Transformation
Greater Spell Breach.

for 17 levels in a spell casting (18 with -1 for EK... 14 with Practiced spellcasting feat... i think)