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View Full Version : Elimination of Racial Hit Die??



Tyger
2009-09-16, 01:36 PM
Looking over the Gnoll (LA+1, and 2 Racial HD), it seems that it would not be overpowering in the slightest to just make Gnoll a LA+1 race, without the racial HD. At the end of the day, Gnoll gets a +2 to stats (not compensated that is), +1NA, and Darkvision... nothing too powerful there. Seems in line with other LA+1 races to me. Or am I missing something?

Starbuck_II
2009-09-16, 01:44 PM
Yes, you are right...

I think they were given to Gnolls RHD just to make it easy to send them against PC (don't need to add a level).

Cieyrin
2009-09-16, 04:35 PM
Looking over the Gnoll (LA+1, and 2 Racial HD), it seems that it would not be overpowering in the slightest to just make Gnoll a LA+1 race, without the racial HD. At the end of the day, Gnoll gets a +2 to stats (not compensated that is), +1NA, and Darkvision... nothing too powerful there. Seems in line with other LA+1 races to me. Or am I missing something?

When I looked over the LA +1 races for a campaign I was running, I dropped the hit dice on Gnolls with little worry. They are hardly broken without the hit dice and you can fill in with better classes than Humanoid hit dice would give you.

ericgrau
2009-09-16, 04:42 PM
He gets two related +2's over an LA 0 race and +1 natural armor. Maybe that's too little for LA 2, but it's too much for LA 1. At least compared to other MM and PH races. If you're allowing strong splatbook races and anyone would be dumb to play a PH race, then I could see it working out fine.

quick_comment
2009-09-16, 04:47 PM
He gets two related +2's over an LA 0 race and +1 natural armor. Maybe that's too little for LA 2, but it's too much for LA 1. At least compared to other MM and PH races. If you're allowing strong splatbook races and anyone would be dumb to play a PH race, then I could see it working out fine.

Id still use a human over it.

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 04:47 PM
He gets two related +2's over an LA 0 race and +1 natural armor. Maybe that's too little for LA 2, but it's too much for LA 1. At least compared to other MM and PH races. If you're allowing strong splatbook races and anyone would be dumb to play a PH race, then I could see it working out fine.

Eh, it's +1 LA. That means they're one HD behind, which fcking sucks. They also have no advantages with regards to creature type or such. They make decent Fighters but even there, the lack of HP really means they suck. If you allow Humans & Dwarves, they're a fair race.

ericgrau
2009-09-16, 04:52 PM
Con bonus. Lack of HP fixed and then some in 5 levels. Or compared to dwarves they have +4 strength, +1 natural armor and 10 foot higher speed.

And an extra core feat won't give you anything as good as stats like that. Again, maybe with splatbooks, but not compared to the books a gnoll is in. So depends what books the DM allows.

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 05:14 PM
Con bonus. Lack of HP fixed and then some in 5 levels. Or compared to dwarves they have +4 strength, +1 natural armor and 10 foot higher speed.

Eh, one HD gives an increasing amount of HP as Con increases. Either way, I'd say you're looking at 7.5-8.5 on a standard fighter-type so he'll take his time catching up HP-wise (especially with Con buffers coming in too) and he'll never get over his vulnerability to Blasphemy-line for example.

Also, missed HD means all kinds of **** like lower skill caps, worse base saves, worse BAB, no class features for a level and overall just worse everything. They +4 Str but no save-bonuses, for example, with regards to Dwarves. That coupled with 1 less BAB should be more than enough.


In Core, they may be kinda strong as Fighters as Fighters lack worthwhile class features but immediately once you make the feats matter by adding the materials, they'll become "Meh".

Honestly, they have a grand total of +2 to ability scores; that's hardly scary. They make decent Fighters but so do Orcs, Dwarves & Humans and Orcs. Dwarf is going to move just as fast as Gnoll most of the time due to their racial ability to ignore Armor Speed Reduction. Dwarves are going to have far better saves and be sturdier. In exchange, Gnolls get +1 AC, +1 to hit (BAB negates the other one) and +3 damage. Doesn't feel like the Dwarf is somehow horribly gimped.

Orcs get slightly less defense and Wis-penalty, but the extra HD makes up for the Con-penalty and Orcs actually hit better than Gnolls due to higher BAB making it a "+1 to hit vs. +1 to AC" question. Again, feels fair to me. And Gnolls are actually behind humans in terms of feats even more than other races, again due to LA.


Numerically, LA +1 Gnolls are pretty fair, though I'd allow them at no LA with slight penalties (maybe -2 Str) myself 'cause LA sucks. Getting hit by skill cap, HP reduction, increased vulnerability to HD-dependant spells and such just hits characters where they can't really afford to take hits; so much of the game is built with the assumption that characters of certain ECL have a certain amount of HD.

ericgrau
2009-09-16, 05:21 PM
Seems more like a complaint against LA in general, in which case you need to reduce the LA of all races, not just gnolls.

Eldariel
2009-09-16, 05:22 PM
Seems more like a complaint against LA in general, in which case you need to reduce the LA of all races, not just gnolls.

Indeed, but my point was that with 1 point of LA, Gnoll matches up quite fairly vs. LA +0 Core races in terms of classes they're most suited for and suck for anything else. I definitely claim they are not broken.

Something like Outsider type is pretty valuable keeping Tieflings and Aasimars playable, but Gnoll only has its stats and NA to sell it. It even has no racials.