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View Full Version : Survivor: Eldritch Knight vs. Sublime Chord



Paulus
2009-09-16, 02:22 PM
Hello everyone, I'm at a bit of a conundrum here and was wondering what your thoughts would be on the matter. I am trying to make a character that is as self sufficient as possible, meaning, he can be picked up and placed in any game world, and decently fill any roll in a party of 3.5 D&D. That is, he can be your face, tank, spell caster, secondary melee, and skillful. This is not to say he will exceed in all of these situations, just that he can cover for them if necessary.

This character would be decently skilled allowing to the fact of Able learner, which is okay since he will be human (the most common race on most worlds). He will have moderate hit points (average in the sixties either route) and specially crafted light armor for +10 AC and +5 Dexterity. Of which he will fill with a +6 Dexterity magic item and base dex of 14. I can also eliminate arcane spell failure from the armor for the first solution via templates or an extra class level, and the second does not worry about arcane spell failure in the same light armor. so I think defensibly he is alright.

He will also be taking the Non Verbal Spell Feat, Eschew Materials, and the line of Improved/Versatile/Superior Unarmed Strike feats to always be able to do decent damage, with gauntlets that can overcome any DR as his primary weapon. Along with his Arcane spell selection I think he is pretty well off damage wise too, allowing for the fact he also takes a great deal of utility and defense spells. I can post the spell list I have in mind later but for now... Thus far, upon adding style and or type of play, I have come down to two solutions.

The first is the Eldritch Knight path qualifying with 1 level of Fighter or Barbarian, following with nine levels of sorcerer, and then ten levels of Eldritch Knight. Or another variation would be Fighter or Barbarian 1/ Sorcerer 7/Ruathar 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10. (allowing in the idea that this character has traveled so many worlds he was bound to helps some elves somewhere along the line).

The second option is the Bard 10/ Sublime Chord 10 route.

Both give me decent hit points, medium bab, fine saves, access to sorcerer spells up to at least one level nine spell, armored casting, and a nice variety of skills. My problem then comes down to versatility and viability. The Eldritch Knight gives me access to very powerful utility and variety spells, but the bard route gives me access to self and other healing spells. Unless I devised a way to create new spells that mimic the bard healing spells and give them to the Sorcerer (which I am working on) they both seem equal at this time.

However, having played only a divine spell caster myself I have not the experience to judge properly these two arcane beauties. Please bless me with your foreknowledge and insight into this matter. I would like the character to be able to withstand a few rounds of toe to toe with anything if necessary, unleash arcane destruction and support if necessary, and most heartily survive if possible.

Keld Denar
2009-09-16, 02:41 PM
Do both!!!

Bard1/Paladin2/Sorcerer6/EK1/SubChord2/AbjurantChamp5/EK+3

This gets you Cha to all saves, 3rd level sorcerer casting, 4-9th level SC casting. Abjurant Champion goodness. Only 15/20 BAB though, although you can make up for that with Arcane Disciple (War or Competition) to add Divine Powah to your spell list.

Also, Cha focus opens up cool feats like Law Devotion and Divine Might, allowing you to actually BEAT PEOPLE UP with your dashing good looks. Fun stuff.

Hope this helps, any questions?

BenTheJester
2009-09-16, 03:29 PM
Do both!!!

Bard1/Paladin2/Sorcerer6/EK1/SubChord2/AbjurantChamp5/EK+3

This gets you Cha to all saves, 3rd level sorcerer casting, 4-9th level SC casting. Abjurant Champion goodness. Only 15/20 BAB though, although you can make up for that with Arcane Disciple (War or Competition) to add Divine Powah to your spell list.

Also, Cha focus opens up cool feats like Law Devotion and Divine Might, allowing you to actually BEAT PEOPLE UP with your dashing good looks. Fun stuff.

Hope this helps, any questions?

except he won't be able to be placed in "every game world" as having so many dips and 6 classes is often looked down upon(with reason)

Hyfigh
2009-09-16, 03:31 PM
Do you NEED to keep the builds you've presented? Truly, there are many chord builds available that will fill the Eldritch Knight roll just as well as the Eldritch Knight would...

In all honesty, though, I've got a Sublime Chord build at home that uses the Dragonfire Inspiration feat to overcome melee challanges, the Sublime Chords ability to boost CL to be a formidable caster, and still has plenty of skill power. It seems something like that will fill your request better.

ken-do-nim
2009-09-16, 03:45 PM
The first is the Eldritch Knight path qualifying with 1 level of Fighter or Barbarian, following with nine levels of sorcerer, and then ten levels of Eldritch Knight.
<snip>
The Eldritch Knight gives me access to very powerful utility and variety spells, but the bard route gives me access to self and other healing spells. Unless I devised a way to create new spells that mimic the bard healing spells and give them to the Sorcerer (which I am working on) they both seem equal at this time.


Paladin 4/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10 is what you want I think. You get a little lay on hands ability, immunity to disease, and a nice ability score synergy focusing on charisma as well as great saves and a much better BAB.

quick_comment
2009-09-16, 03:47 PM
Paladin 4/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10 is what you want I think. You get a little lay on hands ability, immunity to disease, and a nice ability score synergy focusing on charisma as well as great saves and a much better BAB.

You dont even get 8th level spells with that.

ex cathedra
2009-09-16, 03:54 PM
except he won't be able to be placed in "every game world" as having so many dips and 6 classes is often looked down upon(with reason)

Uh, the proposed build uses practically the same amount of material as one of the others. Core + Completes, no campaign specific material.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with using six classes. There are multiclassing rules for a reason, neh? Arbitrarily judging someone for not using one or two classes is unfair, illogical, and actually quite silly.

Baron Corm
2009-09-16, 03:56 PM
Ever heard of the factotum from Dungeonscape? The whole point of the class is to be able to do everything decently well, and I think it pulls it off nicely.

vrellum
2009-09-16, 03:57 PM
I'd say sublime chord. Though I'd build the character different, if I had the chance. Sublime chord gets more skills and better spell casting imo. Plus bards get some useful spells for self sufficiency that sorcerers don't get (like healing) and they get some spells very early (Otto's irrestable dance). Plus bardic music can be quite useful, if you use it properly.

Keld Denar
2009-09-16, 04:04 PM
Yea, a better Sorcadin build is:

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacredExorcist8

finishes 16/20 BAB, 18th level Sorcerer casting, can cast in Mithril Chain Shirt with uber AbjChamp protections, has Cha to saves and turn undead to power Divine feats like Divine Might or Law Devotion.

Pretty much one of the best sorcerer based gish builds.

BenTheJester
2009-09-16, 04:22 PM
Uh, the proposed build uses practically the same amount of material as one of the others. Core + Completes, no campaign specific material.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with using six classes. There are multiclassing rules for a reason, neh? Arbitrarily judging someone for not using one or two classes is unfair, illogical, and actually quite silly.

Just for fun, go look in the recruitment forum.

You will see that under the question "Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?", the most common answer will be: "No penalty, but don't go crazy on dips"


It is not unfair to limit players in the number of classes he can take, it lets him suffer the downsides a class was designed to suffer.


A class, and even moreso a prestige class, is a devotion to a particular field. Taking dips everywhere is ridiculous.


Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

quick_comment
2009-09-16, 04:25 PM
Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

So because wotc never published a class that fits the archetype you want for your character, you shouldnt get to play a particular concept?

BenTheJester
2009-09-16, 04:31 PM
So because wotc never published a class that fits the archetype you want for your character, you shouldnt get to play a particular concept?

There's a difference between a particular concept and taking advantages of every classes without worrying about the downsides.


The build here is a perfect example. Unless your "particular concept" is a character who is extremely resistant to attacks and effects and has access to 9th level spells, and is a good melee character(aka near perfect character), it is just optimisation.

If a 1-20 class that gives you the exact benefits of this build would exist, don't you think everyone would classify it as overpowered?

Melamoto
2009-09-16, 04:32 PM
So because wotc never published a class that fits the archetype you want for your character, you shouldnt get to play a particular concept?

You can still play it, it will just be more gimped than with the dips. Which isn't that bad when you would be getting high BAB and 18th level Sorc casting.

Keld Denar
2009-09-16, 04:58 PM
The build here is a perfect example. Unless your "particular concept" is a character who is extremely resistant to attacks and effects and has access to 9th level spells, and is a good melee character(aka near perfect character), it is just optimisation.

Maybe that IS the point.

Besides, in the Sorcadin build I posted, you have 2 base classes and 3 PrCs. Its generally difficult to impossible to get into most hybred classes without 2 base classes...thats a given. Spellsword IS a dip, sure, because you don't quite fit into Abjurant Champion quite yet, and this gets you there without losing any more CL or BAB. Sure, you could do without it, but why would you? Then you have Abjurant Champion. Its only 5 levels long. You are taking all 5 levels of it. Thats not dipping. Then you head into Sacred Exorcist, taking 8 levels all the way to 20. SacEx is a gloriously flavorful class which matches the Paladin base fluff and combines it a little with an almost Rangery fanatacism toward eliminating Evil Outsiders and Undead using positive energy, spellcasting, and martial prowass (3/4 BAB).

So yea...the only dip in there is the Spellsword, which, flavorwise is not much different from AbjChamp in terms of being a martial caster. Its a bit TOO martial though, and the player would like to keep being as caster as possible.

Plus...you know...a character doesn't know his or her level makeup. They don't know that they have 1 level of Spellsword hanging out there by itself. At least this FLOWS well, as opposed to where someone picks up a single stranded level of cleric just to pillage the domains for bonus feats.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-16, 05:01 PM
Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

It allows you to make fun characters.

Ernir
2009-09-16, 05:09 PM
+1 to Keld's builds. They work.

And +1 for the Factotum. It is the base class that was supposed to be able to do anything.


Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

Your opinion. Not everyone's. Certainly not reality's. Most certainly not mine.

I wish my players would multiclass more. It would show they care about what they want their characters to be able to do instead of just following some published table.


If a 1-20 class that gives you the exact benefits of this build would exist, don't you think everyone would classify it as overpowered?

No, I'd look at it and say "meh, I can do the same thing with a simple Sublime Chord build".

ex cathedra
2009-09-16, 05:13 PM
Just for fun, go look in the recruitment forum.

You will see that under the question "Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?", the most common answer will be: "No penalty, but don't go crazy on dips"

'Most common?'
If you say so, but that doesn't change the fact that a vast number of games differ.



It is not unfair to limit players in the number of classes he can take, it lets him suffer the downsides a class was designed to suffer.

Excuse me? You seem to have much more faith in the intent of D&D's designers than I do. The amount of classes a character can take does not directly affect how powerful characters will be. It simply limits how creative a player can be with the mechanical aspects of their character.



A class, and even moreso a prestige class, is a devotion to a particular field. Taking dips everywhere is ridiculous.

Not every fighter has to be fighter 20. You can be a paladin even if you only take two levels of the paladin class.



Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

Our opinions differ, then. It's perfectly natural, if a bit too punished by core multiclassing rules.

quick_comment
2009-09-16, 05:27 PM
This again?

The name of your class is complete metagame. A "cleric" can be played as a paladin, a doctor, a manfestation of the wrath of Obad-hai, whatever. A "fighter" can be an archer, a knight, an assassin, a ranger, a tracker, a town guardsman. A "sorcerer" might be a wizard, a warlock, an archmage, a hedge wizard, whatever.

A character (in a serious game) would never look at an item and say "ooh, this gives +4 to my will save!" He would say "I want that helm that increases my ability to shake off psychic attacks." Nor would he ever say "Hi, I am a duskblade/abjurant champion."

Some classes have in-game terms associated with them, like the jade phoenix mage or guild wizard of waterdeep. Most classes do not

woodenbandman
2009-09-16, 05:32 PM
But I love playing a build with 2 levels in 10 classes!

It doesn't even matter anyway because the number of dips your build makes is inversely proportional to how powerful it is. A Fighter build needs 10 dips to be competent at hardly anything, whereas a sorceror needs like nothing to be powerful. If anything it has 2 prestige classes, max. Maybe even only 1.

Paulus
2009-09-16, 11:36 PM
First of all thank you for the replies! Now, to business!



snips.


The stitch with this he needs Sorcerer casting to be magically viable against other casters more than he needs divine magic, secondly can’t be a paladin because that would require lawful good alignment, which wouldn’t go over to well if he is stuck on a world of evil, or with evil party members. I probably should have mentioned this, but didn’t deem it necessary, so before we argue possibilities of alignment based worlds, I will simply state I planned for Chaotic Good, with the exception that his alignment CAN change and that upon doing so should not loose him any abilities. Ditto for Law Devotion and Divine Might, I have a feat list planned out, so any class that requires other feats wouldn’t meet his other requirements to be self sufficient, do I need to post them as well? Perhaps I should post all my character info?


Do you NEED to keep the builds you've presented? Truly, there are many chord builds available that will fill the Eldritch Knight roll just as well as the Eldritch Knight would...

In all honesty, though, I've got a Sublime Chord build at home that uses the Dragonfire Inspiration feat to overcome melee challanges, the Sublime Chords ability to boost CL to be a formidable caster, and still has plenty of skill power. It seems something like that will fill your request better.

Well, they are what I have found to be most self sufficient. Full casting (so to speak) medium bab, good defense, good offense, good skills, decent saves. Casting in armor. Dexterity based survivability when facing larger or faster foes. I suppose I could switch it up, but that would require posting the entire build… something I must admit I am leaning to at this time.


Ever heard of the factotum from Dungeonscape? The whole point of the class is to be able to do everything decently well, and I think it pulls it off nicely.

Yes actually but I hesitate to mention my wish to stay away from ‘point pool’ classes. The same for psionics. It just ruins the immersion for me. Personal taste aside, I HAVE looked into Changling Factotum Chameleon, maybe someday…


I'd say sublime chord. Though I'd build the character different, if I had the chance. Sublime chord gets more skills and better spell casting imo. Plus bards get some useful spells for self sufficiency that sorcerers don't get (like healing) and they get some spells very early (Otto's irrestable dance). Plus bardic music can be quite useful, if you use it properly.

Better spell casting, better than a Sorcerer's? if so, how so? Please explain and thank you. But also keep in mind I have gotten permission from my DM to research and create new spells for my Sorc portion that would allow me to basically steal the Bard’s divine healing spell mimics. Therefore healing is no longer a catch 22 or so they say… if they do say… er what did I say?

Also in so far as dipping and level builds go I chose so many PRC strictly because they fit into his story. Achieve the goal I want and remain in story wise, which is why he could never be a paladin aside from the fact of alignment lock it puts on him. It would seem the best method of answering further questions and explanation would be to post the entire build. I shall await replies to this post before doing so, if I even need to.

Once again, I thank you all for being most helpful.

PId6
2009-09-17, 12:40 AM
The stitch with this he needs Sorcerer casting to be magically viable against other casters more than he needs divine magic, secondly can’t be a paladin because that would require lawful good alignment, which wouldn’t go over to well if he is stuck on a world of evil, or with evil party members. I probably should have mentioned this, but didn’t deem it necessary, so before we argue possibilities of alignment based worlds, I will simply state I planned for Chaotic Good, with the exception that his alignment CAN change and that upon doing so should not loose him any abilities. Ditto for Law Devotion and Divine Might, I have a feat list planned out, so any class that requires other feats wouldn’t meet his other requirements to be self sufficient, do I need to post them as well? Perhaps I should post all my character info?
Paladin of Freedom. Paladin of Tyranny. Paladin of Slaughter.

Paulus
2009-09-17, 01:09 AM
Paladin of Freedom. Paladin of Tyranny. Paladin of Slaughter.

Again all alignment locked "either this alignment or loose powers" does not sit well, and as an aside, the spell casting is not as useful as Sorcerers. No transportation or environmental survivability spells. Aside from Endure elements that I've seen. But then I'm only going by core so... Edit: bah why did I write this? Just got it wasn't a suggestion for Paladin spells but the abilities. In which case I would think a Barbarian's uncanny dodge would be better or such- none the less, point still stands that Alignment lock isn't very healthy for the characters. Especially if he finds himself on a world where his god (if he had one) or nature can not reach him. But I digress.

Also, still waiting for replies to previous post before posting build if it's needed.
Thanks!

Tempest Fennac
2009-09-17, 01:16 AM
Ironically, I tend to have characters refering to whatever classes they are using in my games. :smalltongue: (I tend to find it easier while seeing things like "Shapeshifter Druid" or "Conjuration Specialist Wizard" as job titles in the same way that Electritian or Lumberjack are due to the differences which exist regarding how classes do things).

The Knight Phantom, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4 , may be more useful to you then Eldrich Knight (it has stricter prequisites, but it gives a better HD and more class features, and the first level would reduce the need for a Spellsword level).

Paulus
2009-09-17, 01:34 AM
Ironically, I tend to have characters refering to whatever classes they are using in my games. :smalltongue: (I tend to find it easier while seeing things like "Shapeshifter Druid" or "Conjuration Specialist Wizard" as job titles in the same way that Electritian or Lumberjack are due to the differences which exist regarding how classes do things).

The Knight Phantom, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4 , may be more useful to you then Eldrich Knight (it has stricter prequisites, but it gives a better HD and more class features, and the first level would reduce the need for a Spellsword level).

Feats: Still Spell.
Skills: Ride 4 ranks.
Special: Proficiency in all martial weapons.
Special: Ability to cast phantom steed.
Special: Citizen of Aundair, member of the Order of the Knights Arcane.

Entry requirements are a tad steep. Give up a spell known, feat, and there is also the question of the citizenship. That's world specific, but bendable. However, it is a nice alternative. If not for the feat and spell requirement. Though I had planned on Shadow Conjuration (60% real) later on, it is still a bit of a stretch. Still I will keep it in mind... thought it is heavy flavor-wise. Still a nice alternate to Eldritch Knight... Definite keep in mind.

As before, waiting for responses to previous, previous post, before posting full build.

JeminiZero
2009-09-17, 02:06 AM
Eh, just throwing out random ideas here.

Maybe take a few levels of warlock and go down eldritch theurge? Then you can build a semi-glaivelock for decent melee damage. Dark One's Luck helps with Cha synergy as well.

The other option I can think of is maybe a Martial Adept (Crusader or Unarmed Swordsage) splash, and some levels in Jade Phoenix Mage. Sacrifice some caster levels for Melee Maneuvers and high BAB.

You might want to look at is Binder/Anima Mage. Binder is one of the most versatile classes out there, provided you have the correct Vestige. And Anima Mage is one of the earliest PrCs you can get.

You could probably even mix Anima with Jade Phoenix Mage if you had a Neutral (Non-Evil and Non-Good) Character. E.g. 1 Sorcerer / 1 Binder / 1 Martial Adept / 7 Anima Mage / 10 JPM. This nets you 14 BAB, Level 16 Sorc, Level 8 Binder, and level 15 Martial Adept which qualifies you for level 8 Maneuvers (JPM is taken last as non-Martial Adept levels count as half towards Martial Adept levels).

Keld Denar
2009-09-17, 02:19 AM
You should post exactly what feats/spells you are looking for to be "self sufficient", because it sounds like THERE is where you need to optimize. Once you figure out which creases you can iron out, the rest of the build becomes MUCH easier to work with. You might find out that certain feats and features are more easily aquired by other, more efficient means, freeing up resources like feats and skills, thus opening up more available PrCs.

Also, do you REALLY think your alignment is gonna swing THAT much that one of the 4 paladin ideals won't fit you? That seems kinda...no offense...odd. Paladin2 is a REALLY powerful dip because of how much Divine Grace boosts your saves. Being nearly Cha SAD, you can dump all your resources into it, increasing your spellcasting potency and survivability at the same time! If you absolutely don't want it, thats fine, we can build around that, but don't disregard it lightly. If you don't go with some flavor of paladin, then I'd actually suggest a wizard chassis as your font of power, rather than sorcerer. This will also give you more flexibility. If you are worried about spell slots/day, there is always specialization and focused specialization as well.

riddles
2009-09-17, 02:45 AM
a bard is one of the most self sufficient characters out of the box due to versitility.

bard 10/Sublime chord 10 is nice, but your BAB will be horrible. at that point you are a caster with a focus on buffing due to bard song.

you *could* take arcane disciple - competition or war - to get divine power on your list but in any fight you want to be involved in will take you 2 rounds to get going (activate bard song, cast divine power), which might be too long in some cases, especially as you'll want something like mirror image up for defense (though greater mirror image as an immediate action takes care of that). not only that, it requires you have a minimm of 14 wisdom by level 9. can be done with an item, but you an't wear anything else in the neck slot. a dip into cloistered cleric will get you knowledge devotion (awesome given your skill points) and turn undead, which i did think could be used for DMM quicken, until i remembered that spontaneous casters get the shaft on quicken. so instead, take law devotion or divine might. it's feat intensive though, especially if you want to go with optimised bard song.

Cybren
2009-09-17, 02:48 AM
Do both!!!

Bard1/Paladin2/Sorcerer6/EK1/SubChord2/AbjurantChamp5/EK+3

This gets you Cha to all saves, 3rd level sorcerer casting, 4-9th level SC casting. Abjurant Champion goodness. Only 15/20 BAB though, although you can make up for that with Arcane Disciple (War or Competition) to add Divine Powah to your spell list.

Also, Cha focus opens up cool feats like Law Devotion and Divine Might, allowing you to actually BEAT PEOPLE UP with your dashing good looks. Fun stuff.

Hope this helps, any questions?
You have to pick which casting class to apply eldricht knight to at EK1. You can't have your +1 casting levels count for something you take after EK 1.

" From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class."

Keld Denar
2009-09-17, 02:55 AM
Eh, whatever...EK is weaksause anyway. AbjChamp is better, and anything else can be filled by SacExorcist...

Along the lines of what Riddle said...you could do the Sublime Chord build, nab Metamagic Song (bardic DMM), Persist Spell, and Arcane Disciple (Competition). The you could Persist Divine Powah and Righteous Might, making you a melee powerhouse without any other investment....plus you still have full Sublime Chord casting!

Some feat investment there, so again, we'd have to know what these "self sufficient" feats you plan on taking are to see if they overlap with easily aquireable gear or spells. I'm thinking we'll be able to work something around somehow.

riddles
2009-09-17, 03:16 AM
keld denar, where's metamagic song at? i've never seen it before.

olentu
2009-09-17, 03:59 AM
Races of stone I believe.

riddles
2009-09-17, 06:25 AM
checked it out. it is indeed races of stone, pg 142. and it's awesome. rereqs are 2 metamagic feats and bardic music.

actually better than DMM because it only takes 6 bardic music (which you have more of anyway) rather than 7.

frickin A. persistent divine power. still requires you to have a wis of 14, but still, that's wicked awesome.

tonberrian
2009-09-17, 09:15 AM
It's not better than Divine Metamagic because it fixes one of the bigger problems with the latter - you can't apply metamagic if it would adjust the level of the spell above the maximum level that you can cast.

Incidentally, this means that you can't persist Divine Power or Righteous Might with Metamagic Song pre-epic without metamagic reducers.

riddles
2009-09-17, 10:14 AM
ooh...missed that bit...

still, a dip into cloistered cleric gets you knowledge devotion and turn undead at the cost of very little.

Keld Denar
2009-09-17, 10:59 AM
Yea...dipping cleric for TU is fine, but it doesn't help an arcane character. DMM only works on Divine spells, so...without some Geomancer shananigans, all that really does is give you the ability to persist a bunch of 1st level spells by spending a level and a handful of feats. Not a good idea...

Paulus
2009-09-17, 12:25 PM
Alright, I was slightly afraid it would come to this hence the stalling, because I sacrifice a lot for character concept before optimization. But if it will help, and because I can not show enough gratitude for your help, here goes. The Feat list I have decided on, with some exceptions/variations due to class constraints is this thus far.


Able Learner - Taken at first level, a natural choice, I need skills and this is the absolute best way to consistently get them.

Eschew Materials - Perhaps more flavor than utility, but this goes into the "still deadly even when naked", I do not wish to become near on to helpless without my spell component pouch nor my spell book, hence sorcerer over wizard. Also, I dislike the arcane preparation and sleeping time required by Wizard.

Improved Unarmed Strike -A must for his weapon selection. A warrior is only as good as his weapon, and when your hands are deadly you need no other. This is but the first step in that process. A highly thematic choice.

Non Verbal Spell - Picked up late from the planar handbook, this means one can cast simply by making noise in the throat, which means, one can cast while gagged. Or without air. Or underwater. Or buried alive. Better than meta-magic? I'm not so sure, but it goes along with eschew materials nicely.

Versatile Unarmed Strike - Once more additive to the unarmed combatant. This allows one to do all damage types, switching per round, meaning I wouldn't have to carry multiple types of weapons. Nor an extra dagger. Add onto this a pair of transmuting (and possibly ghost touch) gauntlets to overcome damage reduction and there shouldn't be anything I couldn't smack if necessary.

Superior Unarmed Strike - This completes our unarmed damage and offense requirements. As far as weapons go it's no fire ball or lightening bolt, but doing greatsword damage with your bare hands is nothing to be taken lightly. And this works with or without gauntlets, and can do non lethal without penalty.An Idea I very much like. It would allow me to do decent damage if ever locked within an anti magic field or the like. This makes himself the only weapon he will ever need along with his spell casting.

Weapon Finesse - Taken only as a bonus feat for EK, because it grants one, and would allow me to do even sillier amounts of damage owing to the fact I am raising my dex score to 20 via point buy and gloves of dex.

Craft Wondrous Item - A simple practical solution to carrying so many specific items which I shall list next, and being able to repair or create them myself.

Endurance - A prerequisite for Diehard and handy.

Diehard - an absolute must for survivor types, that which does not outright massive damage slay me, gives me a chance to self heal and stay in the fight.


That is my feat list. Or at least ones I am looking at. Force of Personality would be delicious, Deflect Arrows would be glorious, Heighten Spell/Still Spell/Nonverbal Spell would certainly be wonderful as well. but there simply aren't enough feat slots to go around. Next is the spell list, specifically the arcane Sorc one which which will of course have slight variations for Bard first through third spells, but this is the general gist of what I'm aiming at for self sufficient.... so to speak.


0 Level Spells
1. Prestidigitation
2. Ghost Sounds
3. Dancing Lights
4. Detect Magic
5. Mage Hand
6. Message (Copper Wire)
7. Mending
8. Detect Poison
9. Read Magic

1st Level Spells
1. Feather Fall
2. Magic Missile
3. Comprehend Languages
4. Endure Elements
5. Cure Light Wounds*

2nd Level Spells
1. Invisibility
2. Alter Self
3. Mirror Image
4. Dark Vision
5. Cure Moderate Wounds*

3rd Level Spells
1. Fireball
2. Lightning Bolt
3. Fly
4. Water Breathing

4th Level Spells
1. Polymorph
2. Dimension Door
3. Resilient Sphere
4. Cure Critical W*

5th Level Spells
1. Overland Flight
2. Telekinesis
3. Break Enchantment
4. Cure Light Wounds, Mass*


6th Level Spells
1. Dispel Magic, Greater
2. Shadow Walk
3. Cure Moderate W, Mass*

7th Level Spells
1. Teleport, Greater
2. Limited Wish
3. Shadow Conjuration, Greater-
-0: Acid Splash
-1: Grease, Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, Mount, Obscuring Mist
-2: Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Acid Arrow
-3. Phantom steed, Sepia Snake Sigil, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud
-4. Black Tentacles, Secure Shelter, Minor Creation, Solid Fog
-5. Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Major Creation, Secret Chest, Faithful Hound
-6. Acid Fog, Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron

8th Level Spells
1. Mind Blank
2. Polymorph Any Object
3. Shadow Evocation, Greater
-0. Dancing Lights, Flare, Ray of Frost, Light,
-1. Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Floating Disk
-2. Continual Flame, Darkness, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray, Shatter
-3. Daylight, Fireball, Tiny hut, Lightning Bolt, Wind Wall
-4. For Shield, Ice Storm, Resilient Sphere, Shout, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice
-5. Interposing Hand, Cone of Cold, Sending, Wall of Force
-6. Forceful Hand, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Freezing Sphere
-7. Grasping Hand, Delayed Blast Fireball, Forcecage, Sword, Prismatic Spray

9th Level Spells1. Wish *5000xp or more


And lastly, those items I kept referring to that make his defense viable, and the need for craft wondrous item.

+5 Called Mithril Twilight Chainmail of Nimbleness
(+5 AC, +5 Max Dex, 0 ACP, 10% Spell fail, Light )
(with possibly Feycraft and githcraft template in necessary.)
This full suit of dark blue mithral chain mail looks more like half plate due to clever crafting, sections of golden chain specifically cut and dexterously sewn into the overall blue suit give the impression of golden muscles from the crotch, abs, chest, and shoulders to the shoulder blades, lower back, and buttocks. The whole suit is specifically designed to fit the wearer’s body and elegantly crafted to conform to every cure without a single seam, almost as if it were the wearer’s very skin. The whole effect can be very deceptive to foes who expected a slow and burdened opponent. Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cat's grace, teleport; Mithral chainmail: +5ac, +4 mdex, –2acp, 20% asf, 30 ft.speed, 20 lb. Light, 4,150gp; +5 bonus, Nimbleness (-2 ACP +1 Max dex), Twilight (Spell fail -10%) +49,000; Called: +2000gp; Weight 20 lbs.; Price 55,150gp

Called Mithril Gauntlets of Transmuting
These golden metallic gauntlets are surprisingly made of mithral and look like the sort that accompanies full plate mail, interlocking plates with barely visible seams, cover the entire hand and forearm. Each finger has both sharp and blunt sections. Its knuckles are set with a diamond, a sapphire, a ruby and a piece of jet. In addition, it is inlaid with both adamantine and silver in the pattern of distant mountains and forests with a natural spring. When you score a successful hit with a transmuting weapon against a creature that has damage reduction, that attack is resolved normally. At the start of your next turn, however, the weapon transforms, taking on the properties required to over* come that creature's damage reduction. Once so changed, the weapon overcomes the designated type of damage reduction for 10 rounds, or until you strike a creature that has a different type of damage reduction. In this case, the weapon transforms in the same manner to overcome that damage reduction instead. If the target has multiple types of damage reduction, the weapon overcomes all of them. If the creature gains a new type of damage reduction after initially being struck (from changing its form, for example), the weapon must change again before it can overcome the new type. A transmuting weapon does not gain any other benefit of the properties it takes on, and it always deals normal damage. Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fabricate, teleport; Mithril Gauntlets 2lb 1002gp; Transmuting +8000gp; Called: +2000gp; Weight 2lbs; Price: 11,002gp


Called Mithral Boots of Dexterity
These golden metallic boots are surprisingly made of mithral and look like the sort that accompanies full plate mail, interlocking plates with barely visible seams cover the entire foot and foreleg with built in tread for traction on the bottom. The magic of the boots add to the wearer’s Dexterity score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +6. Both boots must be worn for the magic to be effective. Faint transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, cat’s grace; Mithril Boots 2lbs 1002gp; Dexterity Bonus +6 +36,000gp; Called: +2000gp; Weight 2 lbs.; Price: 39,002gp

Called sleeveless Grey tunic of Adaptation
This common looking tunic of soft cotton has no sleeves and only reaches the wearer’s waist. It is surprisingly comfortable when worn. The magic of the tunic wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases (such as cloudkill and stinking cloud effects, as well as inhaled poisons) and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum. Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, alter self, teleport; Sleeveless Tunic 2sp; Necklace of Adaptation powers +9000gp; Called +2000gp ; Price: 11,000gp 2sp

Called dark Blue Hakama of Enduring Elements
This pair of exotic looking soft cotton/silk blend pants has no belt loops or pocket, instead five pleats run the full length of the pant legs, five in front, two in the back; it extends from the wearer’s waist and opens wide at the bottom around the ankles. The magic of the pants protects the wearer in hot or cold environments. It can exist comfortably in conditions between –50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit (without having to make Fortitude saves). The wearer’s equipment is likewise protected. Craft Wondrous Item, sorc/wiz 1, endure elements, teleport; Hakama 3sp; Continuous Endure Elements +12,000gp ( Sorc 1 x Caster 12 x 2000 divided by ½); Called: +2000gp; Price: 14,000gp


None of these items have been specifically "approved" yet, also why I hesitate to post the full character since I know a lot of people will be bugged by the fact I am building on something that may or may not exist due to choices. But, that was also one of the reasons I merely asked about EK or SC. Since either would basically fit the same bill with or without the armor. Like I said, still deadly even when naked. But none the less... Each of these items and the character himself have fluff and back story behind them. They also explain why Paladin is such a problem, but I don't know if it's necessary to post it here for build justification or what not... however, as you have all been so kind to help, the least I can do is give you as much information as possible, so I shall include it last for your enjoyment if you like...


As the child of a prestigious Paladin, Paulus (yup this is the character I took my forum name from, been working on him for weeks!) was eager to join the ranks of holy warriors as his father’s example. From birth he trained to become a holy warrior at the same academy his father attended. He excelled in all basic training, becoming head of his class in all matters of tactical warfare and self-defense, yet in matters of faith there was always something missing. The other students avoided and feared him for his strength, envied him for his determination and mocked him for his inability to feel fulfilled as they. He was also prone to bouts of uncontrollable emotional surges usually ending in confused weeping. At the age of sixteen, when it was time for those Called to be anointed, one by one each of his classmates were brought up to the altar, asked to kiss a book of solid gold encrusted with gems, and stand as one with the Paladins. On his turn, he marched up to the altar, but the Cleric placed his hand on Paulus’s shoulder. The Cleric bowed his head and informed Paulus he was not one of the Called. Struck dumb, Paulus could barely turn to leave, and he could not help but notice the face of his father, and the oddly smug yet ultimately indifferent gaze. Paulus’s world shattered. He had spent his entire life trying to become a Paladin, and now he wasn’t Called? It could not be.

Ashamed, he left the altar, the only one in his class to somehow fail. His father avoided him, disappointment apparent in his absence; he found the other students no less indifferent if not vindictive. He was abandoned in all ways, and the loneliness of spirit caused in him the worst emotional break down he had ever experienced. All night he prayed and prayed, but there was no answer and no comfort. With eyes red from constant tears, his heart drowning in self doubt, he sought the Arch-Cleric. The Cleric told him only those ‘Called’ could become Paladins and he simply was not. In utter despair Paulus begged to know why. The Arch-Cleric reprimanded Paulus for questioning the will of their God, expressed his disappointment in Paulus for letting down his Father and made an offhand comment about “his mothers’ heretic behaviors’ obvious inborn influence on him”. The Arch-Cleric fell to the ground then, though Paulus had not struck him; it was the look within Paulus eyes that so terrified the Arch-Cleric. It was all he could do to keep himself from soiling his pure white robes and had Paulus taken away by guards. Paulus spent five days in terrible isolation for “striking” the Arch-Cleric and was excommunicated, forever banished. Henceforth he was nicknamed “The Uncalled”.

In exile, Paulus was made to join his mother in total isolation. But to his surprise he found his entire family, from her side, resided with her in secret. They greeted him with open arms and Paulus was reunited with his kind mother whom he had not truly known since he was sent to learn the arts of war at age five. For two years Paulus learned the virtues of a real family and simple life, to forgo the teaching of the Paladin faith and focus on the simple appreciative ways of nature. Paulus came of age; in yet another night of shaking tears and futile prayer, his grandfather revealed the truth to him about his family’s secret past. His father was not a real Paladin. Nor were any of the others of the school, not even the Arch-Cleric was a true Cleric. The entire sect followed a false god created to rule the small township; through worship and fear, they had been ruling in corrupt power for years.
He also explained that when his mother had found out the truth, she had tried to take Paulus away from the corruption, but his father had learned of her plan. He had her branded a heretic and banished to absolute isolation, far far into the mountain forests where no other soul would approach her. He was not sent away, he was taken from her. Horrified, he went to his mother begging for the truth. In tears she revealed the entire story; his father had taken and threatened to kill him if she ever came for him or revealed the secret to anyone, and all the while his father spoke of how his mother left them due to her heretic ways. Paulus’s world then truly shattered. That night, he secretly ventured to the township to confront his father, to seek the truth. That night… the entire sect burned.

The city guard came upon the destruction as Paulus carried a bloody form from the fire, his father. Paulus was once again jailed, and expected to be charged with the crime. However. The day of his trial, eyewitnesses came forward describing a demon. “Eyes of madness!”, “Body wreathed in flames!”, “A voice so terrible, it was as if hell itself spoke!”, “It was no man!” Paulus himself had no memories of the night, only of the journey there and finally having his father’s body taken from his arms. They concluded that Paulus could not have been the one to do all the damage, he didn’t match the description and there was no way a single man could have taken down an entire army of ‘holy’ warriors unarmed. Also, several true Paladins arrived in time for the trial, having heard the rumors of a demon; they failed to detect evil within Paulus confirming his innocence. The Court was forced to release Paulus, with a hefty fine for violating his exile, but could not convict him of the destruction. The true Paladins stayed in the town later recreating the temple and dedicating it to a true god.

Paulus returned to his home, even more confused and twisted then before, but once again his family was there to set him straight. This time they revealed to him their true “nature”, they were Druids. Paulus tried to loose himself in their teachings but mysteriously, his abilities with magic failed him, and he was unable to do the simplest spell. Specialists said it was due to a mental instability within the castor to organize thoughts, it was then discovered that Paulus had a rare mental disorder that affected his thought processes. His mind worked so quickly, Paulus could not concentrate properly without forcing it to slow down. Also it affected his emotional control resulting in wild imbalances which explained his strange outbursts. For the next four years Paulus was trained in the art of meditation and the control of his emotions. But he could still not perform Divine magic. He had the capability, but could not muster the control to do it safely. Magical abilities would fluctuate wildly when Paulus tried them, with near deadly consequences. Finally, after many failures, Paulus swore to concentrate until he learned absolute control. He then sought a way to harness his emotional turmoil, pool from his past a self tempered moral code, and a living style that reflected his life in the wilds. Ultimately, he became a warrior on his own terms, trusting in his own hands to protect him and his own soul to guide him; his body would become stronger than any armor, his mind sharper than any sword, thus was his quest: to conquer his turmoil by forging himself in the fires of life. No longer trusting in the ways of the Divine, he would do what his own moral code demanded. He would become a knight errant, a mad man in search of peace of mind… on a mission to set all right in the world, and thus, in himself.


Hence why the 'Knight' idea stuck so well. I planned to make him distrustful of all Paladins, Clerics, and other divine spell casters- so called- simply because of his past experiences. And as a further note, no, I do not expect his alignment to change so drastically per say, but, I'd rather not have it become an issue if it must. It once again breaks the immersion of choice if I must be swayed by loosing game abilities. I would rather do what is right and good because I choose to, not because I may loose my powers.

Not that I am saying that is what you are suggesting, nor are your ideas bad. I am simply unsure they would fit his concept, hence why I am going to such great lengths to get arcane casting in armor, as divine casting has no armor problems. And as I see it, Divine Magic comes from an outside source, gods, nature, etc, whereas, Arcane magic comes from within. Study, practice, etc. This is not to say of course that you are suggesting I switch to divine magic, but for these reasons I am suggesting why he could not be swayed to join divine PRCs.

Sorry to be troublesome if I am. I did not expect to make it so. This is just a character of mine I've been working on for a long while since I was dissatisfied with the core classes: Fighter, Monk, Wizard and Sorcerer specifically.

Is there a better way to achieve my goal than my previous stated class choices? I am not certain... I've done a lot of narrowing down, but was in fact surprised of my ignorance of the Knight Phantom. So once again I bow to your greater knowledge and experience. And once more thank you for all your help!

Kylarra
2009-09-17, 01:01 PM
I was just going to say that it sounds like a Wilder, but that seems to require too much of a deviation from your concept, particularly since you want to craft your own items.

Paulus
2009-09-17, 01:11 PM
I was just going to say that it sounds like a Wilder, but that seems to require too much of a deviation from your concept, particularly since you want to craft your own items.

I've actually looked into that too. But the point was a gaining of MORE control not less. heh. Wild Surge certainly sounds thematically accurate, until I drown in percentile dice. ;3 in any case it was also why I opted for barbarian instead of fighter as a possibility. Having a rage which comes out once and a great while -as opposed to every round of combat because it's a tool instead of a character flaw- made more sense, but either way could be done without or so.

and before anyone points it out, I am aware he would need craft Magical arms and Armor for his main defense, but that was also one of the reason for Ruathar, it's the gift from the elves- and fey craft/gith craft are just improvements each race made for him in thanks for his help, world hopper that he is. however, again, this can be asided if bard/sublime chord works better or some other class does. Trying to stay away from item dependency, but every survivor knows the right tools fit the right job.

and on that note, for AChampion, as you can see from my spell list I'm not taking that many Abjuration spells... plus... Mage Armor isn't abjuration, it's Conjuration so... I'm a tad confused on how it helps. Still It is ALSO a class I am keeping in mind, don't see much benefit from it at this point, but still keeping it in mind.

Keld Denar
2009-09-17, 01:41 PM
First of all, I see one opening for you. Diehard is BAD. You know what it does? It gives you +10 HP...for 2 feats. You know why this is bad? Complete Warrior. It has IMPROVED Toughnes, which gives +1 HP/level. At 10, this amounts to +10 HP, same as Diehard. At level 11, it gives +11 HP, BETTER THAN DIEHARD, and at level 20, it gives +20 HP, TWICE DIEHARD. And it doesn't require 2 feats, only 1. So...its 4 times as effective as Diehard at level 20.

Also, no offense, but I think you are being just a little paranoid with non-verbal spell. Especially since you are a sorcerer, I think you'll get a lot more mileage out of Silent Spell + any spell from the Teleport subschool. None of them have somatic or material compenents (except Teleportation Circle, which...is 9th level and WAY more teleportation than you'll probably ever need).

Also, why Versatile Unarmed Strike? All that lets you do is swap from B to P or S damage. Your gauntlets are Transmuting. They already overcome those DRs, after the first hit. Plus, DR based on weapon type is really rather rare. Off the top of my head, I know of zombies, skeletons, liches and either clay or flesh golems (I forget which).

And Called on ALL your gear seems a little overkill. Check out a Ring of Arming. For 5k, you can "call" all your gear, almost the same as called.

Endure Elements is accessable in a 500g Armor Augement Crystal, although even that is overkill. Just take it as a spell. Its 1st level, and you have it in your 1st level planned spell list.

You don't need Fireball AND Lightning Bolt. I appreciate Fireballs LONG ASS RANGE, but face it, its pretty redundant. Check out Races of the Dragon. There is a spell there called Greater Mighty Wallop (sorc/wiz3). Cast it on your bludgeoning gauntlets, and it increases their size catagory by 1 per 4 CLs. With SUAS, you'll go from 2d6 to 3d6 to 4d6 to 6d6 to 9d6 to 12d6 by CL20, if I remember my size charts correctly. That would be much prefered to anything else you could swing.

I'll probably come up with more, but thats just what I've seen so far.

EDIT:
Abjurant Champion is amazing because its +5 BAB/+5 CL. The prereqs are obscenely easy to get. Also, the Swift Abjuration thing + Shield is the main perk. A Quickened Shield that gives +9 AC is nothing to skoff at, even if thats your ONLY Abjuration. Since you aren't planning on using a shield, thats a good idea...

Admiral Squish
2009-09-17, 03:00 PM
For simplicity, I reccomend just good old-fasioned (Bard/factotum) 5/chameleon 10/(Bard/factotum) 5.

Paulus
2009-09-17, 06:51 PM
First of all, I see one opening for you. Diehard is BAD. You know what it does? It gives you +10 HP...for 2 feats. You know why this is bad? Complete Warrior. It has IMPROVED Toughnes, which gives +1 HP/level. At 10, this amounts to +10 HP, same as Diehard. At level 11, it gives +11 HP, BETTER THAN DIEHARD, and at level 20, it gives +20 HP, TWICE DIEHARD. And it doesn't require 2 feats, only 1. So...its 4 times as effective as Diehard at level 20.

+10hp? I thought it gave you the ability to act disabled instead of unconscious when knocked below negative hit points, and that means you can take move actions and standard actions such as running away, teliporting, or healing yourself. A feat which makes it so unless knocked below -10 hit points you remain alive. Very handy. This is for 3.5 by the by, not sure if I mentioned that, but I think I did. In any case...



Also, no offense, but I think you are being just a little paranoid with non-verbal spell. Especially since you are a sorcerer, I think you'll get a lot more mileage out of Silent Spell + any spell from the Teleport subschool. None of them have somatic or material components (except Teleportation Circle, which...is 9th level and WAY more teleportation than you'll probably ever need).

Hmm possibly... I mean Silent spell would work in a soundless area, but It would only work on spells I could apply the meta magic to, burning up higher spell slots, and increase casting time, where as nonverbal allows me to use all my spells as long as my throat isn't ripped out or in an area of magical silence. It also one ups Silent Spell simply thematically because you can unleash a spell by screaming at someone... however I am fully prepared to hear your argument for it! It isn't a set thing, and certainly woudl be a nice debate of Silent Spell vs. Nonverbal Spell!


Also, why Versatile Unarmed Strike? All that lets you do is swap from B to P or S damage. Your gauntlets are Transmuting. They already overcome those DRs, after the first hit. Plus, DR based on weapon type is really rather rare. Off the top of my head, I know of zombies, skeletons, liches and either clay or flesh golems (I forget which).

For the times when I DON'T have my gauntlets, plus, I may not get Transmuting right away hence for lower levels. Also, utility, it allows me to cut things with my bare hands such as rope or stomachs, it makes bare hands every weapon and one which can overcome your basic DR's in a pinch i.e. naked. For those time when trapped on a world overrun with zombies without gear is a problem... rare? Perhaps. But also a touch thematic, his main weapon is going to be his bare hands, I should think he'd want to explore all possibilities of damage with them including types. Basically you wouldn't want to take him in a bare knuckle fight.



And Called on ALL your gear seems a little overkill. Check out a Ring of Arming. For 5k, you can "call" all your gear, almost the same as called.

Where is this found? Would it allow me to call from any plane? Does it automatically call it equipped on your person? From plane to plane? Maybe a Called Ring would be nice. that way I could call all my gear to me, and if my ring ever gets stolen from me, I can call it and THEN call all my gear. ....nice. I'll need to look at it!


Endure Elements is accessable in a 500g Armor Augement Crystal, although even that is overkill. Just take it as a spell. Its 1st level, and you have it in your 1st level planned spell list.

Eh, not a necessity, more a toy, which is exactly why I have it on my spell list for need.


You don't need Fireball AND Lightning Bolt. I appreciate Fireballs LONG ASS RANGE, but face it, its pretty redundant. Check out Races of the Dragon. There is a spell there called Greater Mighty Wallop (sorc/wiz3). Cast it on your bludgeoning gauntlets, and it increases their size catagory by 1 per 4 CLs. With SUAS, you'll go from 2d6 to 3d6 to 4d6 to 6d6 to 9d6 to 12d6 by CL20, if I remember my size charts correctly. That would be much prefered to anything else you could swing.

mmm nice, I shall have to consider that. I'lll be taking shadow Evocation for just such a redundancy of lacking Delayed blast fireball or chain lightening, but it was the earliest level I got some real attack spells and I wanted to be sure to be able to do at least two different types of damage, electric and fire in any case. But I will definitely take that spell if you think it would be better.



I'll probably come up with more, but thats just what I've seen so far.


Please do I greatly appreciate your help!



EDIT:
Abjurant Champion is amazing because its +5 BAB/+5 CL. The prereqs are obscenely easy to get. Also, the Swift Abjuration thing + Shield is the main perk. A Quickened Shield that gives +9 AC is nothing to skoff at, even if thats your ONLY Abjuration. Since you aren't planning on using a shield, thats a good idea...

Don't I already have that with EK? would this be better to mix with EK or SC? I am looking at it and keeping it in mind with Phantom Knight. But I'm wondering which would be more beneficial, but the preq: Combat Casting... hmmm...

I eagerly await any more you wish to tell me or advise or suggest or tell! I deeply enjoy your help and thank you greatly.


For simplicity, I reccomend just good old-fasioned (Bard/factotum) 5/chameleon 10/(Bard/factotum) 5.

There are two hitches with this, Chameleon prereqs, and the non spontaneous casting and need for sleep. But it IS a class combo I am looking into for another day, just doesn’t quite fit for this particular one. Thanks though!

Starbuck_II
2009-09-17, 07:08 PM
+10hp? I thought it gave you the ability to act disabled instead of unconscious when knocked below negative hit points, and that means you can take move actions and standard actions such as running away, teliporting, or healing yourself. A feat which makes it so unless knocked below -10 hit points you remain alive. Very handy. This is for 3.5 by the by, not sure if I mentioned that, but I think I did. In any case...


Well, think about it. Diehard lets you act when you couldn't: but only 10 hps more.
Improved Toughness does same (effectively assuming same damage total).

Hp 30- At 30 damage Diehard lets you act
Hp 40- At 30 damage you act even better than Diehard.

Mongoose87
2009-09-17, 07:14 PM
Don't I already have that with EK? would this be better to mix with EK or SC? I am looking at it and keeping it in mind with Phantom Knight. But I'm wondering which would be more beneficial, but the preq: Combat Casting... hmmm...
!

Abjurant Champion is widely considered one of the best Gish PrCs. Full Bab, Full CL and a d10 HD, as well as abilities that make the level 1 spell "Shield" your best friend. Trust me, it is better than EK.

Grynning
2009-09-17, 07:15 PM
+10hp? I thought it gave you the ability to act disabled instead of unconscious when knocked below negative hit points, and that means you can take move actions and standard actions such as running away, teliporting, or healing yourself. A feat which makes it so unless knocked below -10 hit points you remain alive. Very handy. This is for 3.5 by the by, not sure if I mentioned that, but I think I did. In any case...

...

Ok....allowing you to stay standing at up to -10 HP is effectively exactly the same as 10 more HP. Think about it. If you have 10 more HP to begin with, it takes that much more to get you to 0 in the first place. Improved Toughness gives more HP than 10, making it mathematically better than Diehard.

Edit: Ninja'd. Also, OP - EK loses a caster level at 1st. Abjurant Champion, Spellsword and Sacred Exorcist do not. The point of all the dips is to not lose any caster levels, which is important to make sure your spells stay effective.

Kylarra
2009-09-17, 07:18 PM
Although admittedly Diehard has a fun flavor to it that improved toughness lacks.

Grynning
2009-09-17, 07:21 PM
Although admittedly Diehard has a fun flavor to it that improved toughness lacks.

Personally if I was DM'ing 3.5 again Endurance, Imp Toughness and Diehard would all be rolled into one feat (which I suppose you could call Diehard so its sounds cool). I wouldn't consider any of them worth it individually except as pre-reqs. 30 HP and sleeping in armor really don't mean a whole hell of a lot at level 20.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-17, 07:22 PM
I would consider going Factotum into Chameleon for the character that can really fill any role.

But to answer your specific question, I would go the Sublime Chord route and then UMD divine power or Tenser's Transformation.

Or take Arcane Disciple feat for the War Domain to add Divine Power to your spell list.

Keld Denar
2009-09-17, 07:59 PM
Ok dude, I'm gonna level with you. There is such a thing as being prepared, and then there is being obscenely paranoid. You...are being obscenely paranoid. It ok to plan well, but don't sacrifice everyday potency for obscure contingency plan 863alpha. Seriously. Versatile Unarmed Strike is overkill. You won't need it for like, 98+% of enemies you face. And the 2% you may fight, is it really worth a whole feat? Most things at low levels, before you have the gauntlets, is gonna have what, DR5, or tops 10. So, you lose a bit of damage off the top, but if you are only able to do 10 damage per hit, you should be looking at something OTHER than Versatile Unarmed Strike to increase your damage...like Snapkick or Arcane Strike.

Another thing. You keep talking about spending a lot of time nuking with spells. Then you talk about punchinating things to death. Well, you only get one set of actions. You can punch, or cast. In general, its best to focus on the one you plan on doing most the time. In your case, I'd suggest that be punchinating. Its nice to have a long ranged option, so having a Fireball (with a range of LONG =400+40/lvl) will be more efficient than shooting long distances, or for whiping up mobs of small enemies at close or far range. Lightning bolt...not as useful simply because it doesn't have the range. Regardless, you'd be better off focusing on spells that make you better at punchinating, like Greater Might Wallop, Greater Mighty Weapon, Wraithstrike, Blade of Blood, maybe Thunderlance? And spells that increase your defenses like Greater Mirror Image, Shield, Polymorph, and such.

As far as Silent Spell vs Non-Verbal Spell...well, yea, Silent Spell does take a slot higher and it does increase your casting time...but you also aren't gonna use it all the time. MAYBE once every so often. Primarily in the case where you get grappled or tied up or whatever in a silenced area and need to teleport out. Thats it. Heck, you'd need it so infrequently that you could probably take Sudden Silent Spell instead of regular Silent Spell and you wouldn't have to worry about the level or cast time or prememorization issues. When in doubt, Teleport out (hey, that rhymes!). As far as enunciation of your spells...well, thats flavor. There is no rule on what the verbal components of a given spell may be. It could be words written in an ancient dead language that sounds like latin, or it could actually BE a battle cry or a series of clicks and throat sounds. The only stipulation is that it must be made clearly and forcefully (which is only so that its easy to ID as spellcasting). Bob the wizards' verbal components may be different from Steve the sorcerer, or Tim the beguiler. There is no need for a valuable game mechanic to change this fluff.

EDIT:
Also, just to clarify on things...lets say your guy is 10th level and has 100 HP. With Imp Toughness, you'll have 110 HP. With Diehard instead, you'll have 100 HP.

Imp Toughness guy take 105 damge. He's still at 5 HP and can act the same as he did with 110 HP. Still up, still taking full rounds worth of actions.

Diehard guy take 105 damage. He's now at -5 HP. He's bleeding (taking 1 HP damage per turn), and can only take a standard OR move action per turn. Yea, he's still "standing" but he's half as effective as Imp Toughness guy. Plus, he has one less feat cause he had to blow a feat on Endurance like a chump.

Diehard is ONLY good if you get it for free, like, from Crusader levels, or Ordained Champion levels. Otherwise, either take Imp Toughness, or just take almost any other feat at all that will help you end combats faster. Like...Power Attack or Arcane Strike or Snapkick or whatever...

DragoonWraith
2009-09-17, 08:53 PM
Ok dude, I'm gonna level with you. There is such a thing as being prepared, and then there is being obscenely paranoid. You...are being obscenely paranoid.
I think that was the entire character concept?

Keld Denar
2009-09-17, 09:00 PM
Well...in that case, play a Monk20. You have good saves, SR, and can run away like a sissy girl at the first sign of trouble with your 90' movement speed. If you can't run, Abundant Step or Empty Body and then run. Don't ever look back, because the image of your enemies rolling on the ground laughing is potentially VERY fatal. At least to your self-esteem.

If you want to be completely worthless, there you go. If you want to be well prepared, but still useful in combat, you need to trim some of the more extravogant contingencies that just don't contribute most of the time. There is a balance, and you aren't there...yet.

DarthCyberWolf
2009-09-17, 09:07 PM
Where is this found? Would it allow me to call from any plane? Does it automatically call it equipped on your person? From plane to plane? Maybe a Called Ring would be nice. that way I could call all my gear to me, and if my ring ever gets stolen from me, I can call it and THEN call all my gear. ....nice. I'll need to look at it!

Ring of Arming. Magic Item Compendium page 122. 5,000 gold. Standard action to activate.

“When you activate a ring of arming, any armor or weapons you currently wear disappear and are stored magically within the ring, and any armor or weapons currently stored within the ring appear in the appropriate places on your body (items that must be held appear at your feet if you don’t have free hands)."

Paulus
2009-09-17, 11:31 PM
Well, think about it. Diehard lets you act when you couldn't: but only 10 hps more.
Improved Toughness does same (effectively assuming same damage total).

Hp 30- At 30 damage Diehard lets you act
Hp 40- At 30 damage you act even better than Diehard.

Not really, mathematically it is the same but in practice it is different. No matter what hp total I have, if I go to zero or negatives I am unconscious. Period. No matter if it takes 10hp more or less. Whereas with diehard I’m only dead if I hit -10. period. I’m still able to act in the negatives, no matter what it takes to get me there. Even with ten or fifty more hp, as soon as I hit that ground Zero I’m out of the fight and dieing. Whereas with Diehard I’m instantly stabilized, and able to act, thus heal myself, escape, and other such things.

Having more hp is very well and good and I am now seriously considering Abj-Champion for that very reason. But the fact remains, hitting zero will take you out, and for a survivor, anything that allows you to keep on living when you’re suppose to be dead is a plus! I admittedly must grow accustomed to Endurance and would gladly take Diehard alone, but I do understand what you're saying, but you’re saying it from a different angle than I am. Having more Hp may keep you in the fight longer, but Zero is the bottom line, with diehard, zero is just the warning that you need to take extra measures. In either case Diehard would protect me better than ten hp from that ground zero, the only thing that could kill me then would be to go beyond -10. Whereas with more hp, the only thing to kill me would be to go to zero… and then have no one else to help me. Which doesn’t sound very self sufficient…


I would consider going Factotum into Chameleon for the character that can really fill any role.

But to answer your specific question, I would go the Sublime Chord route and then UMD divine power or Tenser's Transformation.

Or take Arcane Disciple feat for the War Domain to add Divine Power to your spell list.

Tenser’s transformation? I had heard it wasn’t worth it… Please explain further?



Ok dude, I'm gonna level with you. There is such a thing as being prepared, and then there is being obscenely paranoid. You...are being obscenely paranoid. It ok to plan well, but don't sacrifice everyday potency for obscure contingency plan 863alpha. Seriously. Versatile Unarmed Strike is overkill. You won't need it for like, 98+% of enemies you face. And the 2% you may fight, is it really worth a whole feat? Most things at low levels, before you have the gauntlets, is gonna have what, DR5, or tops 10. So, you lose a bit of damage off the top, but if you are only able to do 10 damage per hit, you should be looking at something OTHER than Versatile Unarmed Strike to increase your damage...like Snapkick or Arcane Strike.

DR really isn’t the issue, it’s more to the point of never needing a bladed weapon or piercing weapon again. If swallowed? Surrounded by zombies? Need to cut rope? Need to pop something? Using your bare hands as a weapon is indeed something I strive for, and was dissatisfied with the monk’s path, the pursuit just doesn’t fit what I’m going for. Plus, thematically, you are only adding to exactly what he is going for. Obscenely Paranoid? That’s what they called Burt Gummer, yet he lived through ALL the movies. And overkill? Best way to kill something in my opinion. As the only weapon he has, when all magic fails him, it needs to be as good as it can be. And utility wise it removes the need for other weapons.

But aside from increasing my damage, what I worry about is being able to stay IN a fight toe to toe. Hp, AC, Dexterity… defense worries me more than his offense. I am currently taking only three feats to be self sufficient damage wise. And that means completely naked. As for Snapkick, it is an extra attack, swift, that takes a minus two penalty, which I have considered also. But from what I understand, I shouldn’t need more than three… because I won’t survive very long to deliver more if my defenses aren’t up to par. But being able to only strike three times vs. a full five is fine with me. The middle ground is the best course of action when faced with overwhelming options such as these.


Another thing. You keep talking about spending a lot of time nuking with spells. Then you talk about punchinating things to death. Well, you only get one set of actions. You can punch, or cast. In general, its best to focus on the one you plan on doing most the time. In your case, I'd suggest that be punchinating. Its nice to have a long ranged option, so having a Fireball (with a range of LONG =400+40/lvl) will be more efficient than shooting long distances, or for whiping up mobs of small enemies at close or far range. Lightning bolt...not as useful simply because it doesn't have the range. Regardless, you'd be better off focusing on spells that make you better at punchinating, like Greater Might Wallop, Greater Mighty Weapon, Wraithstrike, Blade of Blood, maybe Thunderlance? And spells that increase your defenses like Greater Mirror Image, Shield, Polymorph, and such.

That’s because magic will serve as his primary ranged weapon. And when facing things he CAN NOT go toe to toe with, range is his safest course of action, and movement, speed. So against fighter types he chooses the high ground, lobs spells, against spell casters he closes in, and beats them to death. Or unconsciousness. He should be able to fill the role tactically for your typical vs. Against fighters, he should be able to exploit their weakness and stay out of melee, for caster he should be able to exploit their weakness and get into melee. BUT he should also be able to hold his own, moderately and admittedly with support, against either on their own ground. I’ve not yet found that I don’t think… but it IS what I am aiming for. And you HAVE convinced me to take Greater Might Wallop, I am absolutely looking into it. And if you don’t’ mind could I have the source for your other suggestions?



As far as Silent Spell vs Non-Verbal Spell...well, yea, Silent Spell does take a slot higher and it does increase your casting time...but you also aren't gonna use it all the time. MAYBE once every so often. Primarily in the case where you get grappled or tied up or whatever in a silenced area and need to teleport out. Thats it. Heck, you'd need it so infrequently that you could probably take Sudden Silent Spell instead of regular Silent Spell and you wouldn't have to worry about the level or cast time or prememorization issues. When in doubt, Teleport out (hey, that rhymes!). As far as enunciation of your spells...well, thats flavor. There is no rule on what the verbal components of a given spell may be. It could be words written in an ancient dead language that sounds like latin, or it could actually BE a battle cry or a series of clicks and throat sounds. The only stipulation is that it must be made clearly and forcefully (which is only so that its easy to ID as spellcasting). Bob the wizards' verbal components may be different from Steve the sorcerer, or Tim the beguiler. There is no need for a valuable game mechanic to change this fluff.

Then would the likely being so low why take either? I have heard the fastest way to shut down a caster is to gag them… to prepare against them many have taken silent spell, and I figured Nonverbal spell would be better simply because it works for all his spells keeping them in the same spellslot… and if I am to use it so rarely, than thematic wins out over all. I like the idea of growling or screaming my spells. Since simple growling is even mentioned in the feat description, I’m sure it can confuse a lot of other casters. But it would also allow for casting in areas where one can not open ones mouth, very handy, I should think… and it has none of the draw backs of metamagic. So I’m simply not seeing why Silent Spell is better. However, I am beginning to wonder if being gaged is such a big threat…

And how about Combat Casting? The Pre-req for Abjurant champion which you all have convinced me is better.


EDIT: Also, just to clarify on things...lets say your guy is 10th level and has 100 HP. With Imp Toughness, you'll have 110 HP. With Diehard instead, you'll have 100 HP.

Imp Toughness guy take 105 damge. He's still at 5 HP and can act the same as he did with 110 HP. Still up, still taking full rounds worth of actions.

Diehard guy take 105 damage. He's now at -5 HP. He's bleeding (taking 1 HP damage per turn), and can only take a standard OR move action per turn. Yea, he's still "standing" but he's half as effective as Imp Toughness guy. Plus, he has one less feat cause he had to blow a feat on Endurance like a chump.

Diehard is ONLY good if you get it for free, like, from Crusader levels, or Ordained Champion levels. Otherwise, either take Imp Toughness, or just take almost any other feat at all that will help you end combats faster. Like...Power Attack or Arcane Strike or Snapkick or whatever...

Also again, not true, you become automatically stable if you have diehard, and you remain conscious, no matter how much hp you loose. Unless you it -10 you have a chance, whereas without, if you hit zero you have no chance but your party. and as far as ending combat faster... there will be situations where no matter what feats I take the fight will simply drag on, and being able to outlast, to survive, is the key point of the survivor. If place in any situation where the character is NOT directly confronted with an enemy to strike, but instead faced with numerous challenges again and again to wear him down, there needs to be an answer for it. Therefore, when all spell casting fails, when all armor fails, when all magic items fail, he will kill with his bare hands. Any edge, what so ever, to improve that unarmed capability is definitely what I need. Plus you just can't beat the utility of it, even if you add more damage.

Also one of the points is not to have an answer for every situation itself, that's impossible, unless you are a wizard of very high level... and money... etc, instead this character choose a select few generalization abilities, feats, and such to have just enough elbow grease to get by no matter what situation- self sufficiency. And sadly that includes removing the bigger weaknesses from the other classes. A wizard needs rest and a spell book, a cleric need rest and his daily prayer, a fighter needs his armor, weapons, and items. A Sorcerer needs others to take the hit for him, and relies on magic, A paladin relies on his alignment and his deity.

A Barbarian, Bard, and Monk are as close as I've gotten to the self sufficient. But a barbarian lacks magic, a bard strength to withstand, and a monk... simply lacks. Therefore combining, and keeping theme in mind, I must needs create a character that fits in any party! any situation! Any time, anywhere, and stay the distance. When all others fall, fail, die trying. he is the one who drags their corpse to safety, he is the one who gets them out of that impenetrable prison, he the first one in, and last to leave, he is the one who leaps forward so that others may run back. He needs to live, he needs to utilize, and he needs to match the idea I have for him. heh. A tall order for the constraints of flavor... which I am very happy, ecstatic even, that you are actually helping me stay within. You're only complaint thus far has been I have over prepared and in doing so lessened some of his possible power! As long as he can still survive, and do so with style, I am happy! Which is why I once again, thank you so very very much!


Ring of Arming. Magic Item Compendium page 122. 5,000 gold. Standard action to activate.

“When you activate a ring of arming, any armor or weapons you currently wear disappear and are stored magically within the ring, and any armor or weapons currently stored within the ring appear in the appropriate places on your body (items that must be held appear at your feet if you don’t have free hands)."

ah thank you! hmm… but in this case one need only destroy my ring to render me incapable of summoning my armor from anywhere on the same plane. And rings aren’t as tough as the items themselves… so though it may cost more I think having the previous-precaution would be better.

But now you’ve all got me looking at Abjurant Champion… how about battle casting? Any word on it?

Once more, I can not thank you enough for your help. And I apologize if I seem thick on getting what you are saying or a slave to thematics and story and character concept. I did warn that was why I was hesitant to post it fully… because I would gladly sacrifice an inch of viability for a mile of flavorful goodness. Makes the exercise seem deadlock I am afraid, but I DO enjoy your suggestions and HAVE been convinced on quite a few of them. Mighty Wallop, Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom are definitely within my sights.

But what worries me most at this point is defense, so called, survivability. But again, thank you all!

DragoonWraith
2009-09-17, 11:51 PM
Also again, not true, you become automatically stable if you have diehard, and you remain conscious, no matter how much hp you loose. Unless you it -10 you have a chance, whereas without, if you hit zero you have no chance but your party. and as far as ending combat faster...
Err... what? Yes, it was true. It was simple mathematics. 100 HP + Diehard means you can take 105 damage and still function at -5, but you're somewhat gimped (can only take standard or move actions, not both). With Improved Toughness, you have 110 HP, so you can take 105 damage and still function at +5 HP, so you're not gimped. Huge difference. Plus, with improved toughness, you can take 115 damage and still be alive at -5 (though probably out of the fight and reliant on allies), where with Diehard you would simply be dead at -15. Plus, as stated, you've got an extra feat saved by not taking Endurance.

And then when you hit 11, you've got 121 HP instead of 110, so you can take 1 damage more and still function normally. By 20, you have 10 extra HP.

Improved Toughness >> Diehard, even ignoring the Endurance pre-req. With that pre-req, there's simply no contest.


there will be situations where no matter what feats I take the fight will simply drag on, and being able to outlast, to survive, is the key point of the survivor. If place in any situation where the character is NOT directly confronted with an enemy to strike, but instead faced with numerous challenges again and again to wear him down, there needs to be an answer for it. Therefore, when all spell casting fails, when all armor fails, when all magic items fail, he will kill with his bare hands. Any edge, what so ever, to improve that unarmed capability is definitely what I need. Plus you just can't beat the utility of it, even if you add more damage.
To be perfectly honest... a Wizard will still do it the whole 'survival' thing better. Sorry, that's just how 3.5 is. Limited spells per day... doesn't limit an intelligent Wizard very much.

Kylarra
2009-09-17, 11:56 PM
I'm feeling the strange urge to suggest Commoner 1/Survivor 5 >>

Optimystik
2009-09-18, 12:27 AM
The build here is a perfect example. Unless your "particular concept" is a character who is extremely resistant to attacks and effects and has access to 9th level spells, and is a good melee character(aka near perfect character), it is just optimisation.

If a 1-20 class that gives you the exact benefits of this build would exist, don't you think everyone would classify it as overpowered?

Druid 20. Next!

Paulus
2009-09-18, 12:52 AM
Err... what? Yes, it was true. It was simple mathematics. 100 HP + Diehard means you can take 105 damage and still function at -5, but you're somewhat gimped (can only take standard or move actions, not both). With Improved Toughness, you have 110 HP, so you can take 105 damage and still function at +5 HP, so you're not gimped. Huge difference. Plus, with improved toughness, you can take 115 damage and still be alive at -5 (though probably out of the fight and reliant on allies), where with Diehard you would simply be dead at -15. Plus, as stated, you've got an extra feat saved by not taking Endurance.

And then when you hit 11, you've got 121 HP instead of 110, so you can take 1 damage more and still function normally. By 20, you have 10 extra HP.

Improved Toughness >> Diehard, even ignoring the Endurance pre-req. With that pre-req, there's simply no contest.

To be perfectly honest... a Wizard will still do it the whole 'survival' thing better. Sorry, that's just how 3.5 is. Limited spells per day... doesn't limit an intelligent Wizard very much.

Still the same problem, in your example I'm dead with or without diehard after 115 damage. Party or not is not the issue it's the factor of being able to act once you hit that ground zero. So no matter how many Hps I have, I could ALWAYS stand to use more but ONLY with diehard can I still act and survive once I hit ground Zero/zero Hp. So you see it isn't the factor of having ten more vs. not having ten more, is the factor or being able to DO SOMETHING when that inevitable ground zero happens. Delaying is not better than being able to act where all others can not in the same situation. It's that ground Zero, that unconsciousness I am fighting, not the HP I have.

Of course, that is all fine and good for me to say. but the fact remains... do I even HAVE enough Hp? neither matters if I am unable to withstand even that first blow. Therefore I have been looking at defenses very closely... and thus far am looking into Fighter 1/Srocerer 4/Abujrant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10 or Ruathar 1-3 in there somewhere... It will give me those needed Hps. But it will also cut out two feats... and if I am willing to sacrifice Endurance and Diehard for Still Spell and Combat Casting... it just might work. So. While I still do not see ten hp more as better than being able to act where all others can not below that ground zero line... there doesn't seem to be a way to fit in the two feats I want without fighter in the mix... though I consider burning Craft Wondrous items... if it will help make him more survivable even when naked I suppose. It would limit reliance on armor and items I suppose.

1. Able Learner, Improved Unarmed Strike, Eschew materials
3. Combat Casting
6. Superior Unarmed Strike
9. Still Spell
12. Versatile Unarmed Strike
15. Nonverbal Spell
18. Craft Wondrous Item

So I am looking at Abjurant Champion and Phantom Knight with a possible mix of Ruathar in there for the extra will saves and such… however that leaves my feat selection sort of in the gutter with fighter being necessary. And it makes endurance and Diehard redundant… because I couldn’t get them anyway. Unless I killed Nonverbal Spell and the Craft feat. Which puts into question the survivability angles…. I like the combo of Still Spell, Nonverbal spell, and Eschew Materials- as they all fit the same theme. The same goes for Improved, Versatile, and Superior Unarmed Strike. Leaving Able Learner and Craft wondrous Items to destroy for Endurance and Diehard. Though I feel only diehard need be worth that destruction to stay in the fight when ground zero is reached… though perhaps a contingency + cure wounds spell would serve me better… because Able Learner is also a must… any other suggestions to fit this complex bill though?

And lastly…



I'm feeling the strange urge to suggest Commoner 1/Survivor 5 >>

Huh? Please elaborate?

And once more, endlessly, Thank you all for your help!


EDIT: Oh one last thing, yes a wizard would do it better... if he got enough sleep and never had his spell book stolen... and survived long enough to reach those high levels. And wasn't placed in a situation where his all encompassing magic failed him. But this isn't a "wizards are broken, I hate batman" thread if you please... I understand how broken a Wizard can be, and I'm not trying to be the best. Just live, and live well. Hence so many sacrifices in the face of convention for concept. Thanks again!

Kylarra
2009-09-18, 01:05 AM
It was a bit of a joke. Survivor is a savage species PrC that has 5 levels, gives the first two aspects of Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC, can't be flanked), improved evasion, and DR 5. It also has the dubious honor of being easiest to enter as a commoner 1.

I mainly said it because you have "Survivor" in the title.

Mongoose87
2009-09-18, 01:13 AM
Paulus, the point you seem to be missing, when it comes to Improved Toughness vs Diehard, is that with Improved Toughness, the same amount of damage is having less overall effect.

Honestly, beyond early levels, that -1 to -10 range just doesn't happen all that often - usually you've either got HP, or you're dead. So, not onyl does Diehard help you less when the perfect situation comes up, it's also less likely to come up.

Keld Denar
2009-09-18, 01:48 AM
Well, I had a nice rant worked up, but my browser closed for some reason and I lost it...queue the highlights reel!

I think you are bit disillusioned at what goes on at high levels. Even with Greater Mighty Wallop, you are gonna have a hell of a time killing anything. 8d6 is what...28 damage per hit... at level 20. Wooo. I have 4th level characters with a 2handed sword that do more than that. Also, with VERY few exceptions, more attacks are ALWAYS better than fewer attacks, even with a -2 penalty or two. Snap Kick also has the advantage of working on a standard action attack, rather than only on full attacks like TWF, Flurry, or Rapid Shot. You don't have any bonus damage other than Greater Mighty Wallop. You don't have Power Attack. You don't have Arcane Strike. Your Str score isn't prioritized because you are going for a Dex focus, of which the AC you get won't protect you.

I think your character is gonna get mauled by a Greater Stone Golem, or a Huge Earth Elemental, or any CR16+ outsider, even at level 20. You are gonna go toe to toe, its not gonna have any problem hitting you, your AC won't be high enough, and you HP won't be high enough and its gonna maul you. It'll burn straight through your Diehard and kill you outright. Thats if you don't get PW:Stunned to death or similar, which you have no counter for. You haven't even dealt with half of the threats that a character encounters at those levels, the biggest of which involve running out of HP and failing fort saves. You have no death ward, and your fort save won't be that impressive, especially since you haven't mentioned anything about your Con score. You have no FoM, which you could fix with Heart of Water (CMage) or just getting a FoM ring. If you have a FoM effect running, you don't even have to worry about getting gagged, because no one can grapple you...EVER. Craft Wonderous Item is a good thing, but you have it WAY too late in your build. By the time you get to level 18, you should already have a bunch of the items you need, and you won't get the discount on them because its MAD late. I'm not even gonna touch how worthless Eschew Materials is...

Another thing. I don't get this forums facination with Knight Phantom, compared to EK, which is weak to begin with. You pick up some weak class features that WOULD be powerful if you got them 5 levels earlier, and provided your phantom steed DOESN'T get shot out from underneath you (cause those things have what, 30 HP max?). In return for those "amazing" features, you give up 2 feats. One for Still Spell, the most WORTHLESS feat in the game, considering that the only spells you really want to be Stilling, those in the Teleport Subschool (Dim Hop, Dim Door, Teleport, G Teleport) don't have any Somantic components anyway. So, its a dead feat. KP also doesn't have the bonus feat you get from EK. So yea, you're already taxed for feats, and falling further behind. Better would be to take Eldrich Knight and take Snap Kick and Arcane Strike with those 2 feats. At least that way you won't fail on damage as well...

Also, another thing...why Able Learner? What skills are you worried about keeping up? Concentration will be a class skill for EVERY level you take, except the 1 fighter level. So will Spellcraft, which you don't even need. Is it for Knowledges? You won't have enough skill points on a sorcerer chassis anyway, since you'll be Cha focused instead of Int, and without Knowledge Devotion, all they give you is metagame knowledge which won't really change much about the way you plan on punching stuff to death anyway...

Sorry, this post got a little ranty...its just...you are focusing on the WRONG things. You are trying to combine things that mechanically don't combine well in 3.5 and then claiming that they'll help keep you alive or help you defeat foes. They will do neither. Heck, you could grab a piece of wood, a chair or table leg, hold it in both hands, and with both Greater Mighty Wallop and Greater Magic Weapon and Power Attack and a Str focus instead of Dex focus, you'll do 3-4 times more damage per hit...easily. And thats not even HALF optimized, or using Polymorph. Its kinda frustrating.

In conclusion, you're HP will be low, your AC won't be high enough, your AB will be low, and your damage will be low. You aren't protected from most of the mid-high level debuffs and disables, despite your "survivor" mentality. Your spells aren't strong enough to kill most CR appropriate, and they don't buff you well enough to help you defeat the foes you can't spell to death.

You are essentially a monk. Looks decent on paper (ZOMG 2d6 fists! LIKE GREATSWORDS IN EACH HAND!!! SO AMAZING!), absolutely fail in playtest at almost any level because it just doesn't synergize well. Maybe you'll have a softball DM who'll make things easy so you can feel important and contribute, but if that's the case, why prepare for the worst at all. See what I'm saying here? Does this make sense? We are trying to help, trying to stay close to your concept, yet making you able to contribute in a way thats more than breathing up all the oxygen in the room. Its hard with the amount of constraints you've put in place though...

Paulus
2009-09-18, 03:44 AM
Before I reply in earnest I would simply like to say one thing, I apologize if I upset you enough to cause such a rant… but I believe I mention in my first post, here-

“However, having played only a divine spell caster myself I have not the experience to judge properly these two arcane beauties. Please bless me with your foreknowledge and insight into this matter. I would like the character to be able to withstand a few rounds of toe to toe with anything if necessary, unleash arcane destruction and support if necessary, and most heartily survive if possible.”

-that my experience is dreadfully limited. Perhaps I was not clear on exactly HOW dreadfully limited that is. When I say I have only played a divine spell caster, I mean ONLY a divine spell caster. And when I mention that it encompasses my fist game ever, with my first character played ever, and in my first campaign ever. And by that I mean I have only been able to play three sessions, and by that I mean, I have yet to even play in a single round of combat. If you have not yet realized the scope of my inexperience, or if my foreknowledge from study and appreciation of the game itself has yet to clue you in, allow me to be blunt, I have absolutely little if no idea what I am doing. Also a reason for my gratuitous gratitude, so please believe me when I tell you it burdens me greatly it came to such an end that would frustrate you.

I was absolutely hesitant about posting his build and his back story and all of his details for this very reason, my inexperience is nigh impossible to disclose to veterans such as yourself. In the beginning I only wished to compare Eldritch Knight to Sublime Chord in a way that would fit a loose collection of ideas and themes, that is to say, was described in my first post. I heartily admit when the thought of optimizing and utilizing every possible aspect to better explain so as to AVOID frustrating others out of my ignorance was merely because it is that very ignorance I wish to dismiss and illuminate upon your experience itself. I never wanted this to cause any stress for anyone. Please believe me, and please forgive any caused.

Now, onto replying in earnest…



Well, I had a nice rant worked up, but my browser closed for some reason and I lost it...queue the highlights reel!

I think you are bit disillusioned at what goes on at high levels. Even with Greater Mighty Wallop, you are gonna have a hell of a time killing anything. 8d6 is what...28 damage per hit... at level 20. Wooo. I have 4th level characters with a 2handed sword that do more than that. Also, with VERY few exceptions, more attacks are ALWAYS better than fewer attacks, even with a -2 penalty or two. Snap Kick also has the advantage of working on a standard action attack, rather than only on full attacks like TWF, Flurry, or Rapid Shot. You don't have any bonus damage other than Greater Mighty Wallop. You don't have Power Attack. You don't have Arcane Strike. Your Str score isn't prioritized because you are going for a Dex focus, of which the AC you get won't protect you.

Disillusioned is the least of it. 28 damage per hit? At level twenty? I can only judge via the spell levels I’ve witnessed from reading the descriptions and a rogues sneak attack can do far more itself… therefore I believe I understand what you are saying, but have no real hope of increasing his attack potential or AC above what I’ve done, armor, item, and magic wise. I’ve added ridiculous amounts of templates onto a single set of armor to make it light, and to make it useable by an arcane caster for melee, and I’ve added dexterity to sed armor to add further to his dexterity score, but even all of that leaves very little for further improvement because the cash simply isn’t there.

No natural armor, or Deflection bonus for quite some time as I’ve already spent most of it on the armor and gauntlets themselves. Not to mention dipping in a prestige class for the very ability to use armor, since armor seems the only logical way to increase AC at all when spells simply won’t do. That is, in a magic-less environment, or when magic fails. Sliming down the cost itself was part in parcel as I DID have Deathward on my armor for a while there, but thought it unlikely… afterall death spells that are touch range are rare- or should be. One can only hope, but a hurdle I was willing to risk because the armor itself was getting ridiculously costly as it should for such utility and protection… and as far as dexterity goes, what other choice have I? I certainly can not spend so many feats gaining dodge bonuses, and the others I’ve already covered or found to be too costly.

So being able to dodge what comes at me seemed most likely the best bet since I know I could not outright withstand it with my measly hps, therefore getting dex as high as possible seemed the best option, rather to dodge the damage than absorb it with Con, especially since Dex works with many skills and Skills were what I was aiming for. I can’t understand how it won’t protect me, there is not much else I see that I can do that every other class need not do or already does. I fully prepare for the fact I will NEED a group to live, otherwise why play? He isn’t going to be a solo character after all, just one that would fit in ANY group compellation—but further…


I think your character is gonna get mauled by a Greater Stone Golem, or a Huge Earth Elemental, or any CR16+ outsider, even at level 20. You are gonna go toe to toe, its not gonna have any problem hitting you, your AC won't be high enough, and you HP won't be high enough and its gonna maul you. It'll burn straight through your Diehard and kill you outright. Thats if you don't get PW:Stunned to death or similar, which you have no counter for. You haven't even dealt with half of the threats that a character encounters at those levels, the biggest of which involve running out of HP and failing fort saves. You have no death ward, and your fort save won't be that impressive, especially since you haven't mentioned anything about your Con score. You have no FoM, which you could fix with Heart of Water (CMage) or just getting a FoM ring. If you have a FoM effect running, you don't even have to worry about getting gagged, because no one can grapple you...EVER. Craft Wonderous Item is a good thing, but you have it WAY too late in your build. By the time you get to level 18, you should already have a bunch of the items you need, and you won't get the discount on them because its MAD late. I'm not even gonna touch how worthless Eschew Materials is...

I don’t know what FoM is I am sorry. Craft Wondrous Items was only an additive to the fact I would like to make wondrous items for fun… and to repair any I happen to own. It isn’t necessary to the build… and sadly I am completely unaware of the threats a characters encounters at those levels, or even at level one. My first group I was able to find is only playing high level, and it’s online, so I can not start out slowly as I’d wish- especially since they are the ONLY group I was able to find online which I could arguably play with due to schedule. I don’t blame them though, I am just happy to play, but it leaves my choices and experiences as being limited… yet it is no excuse for my ignorance, nor for my inability to explain it properly, so once more. I do apologize.


Another thing. I don't get this forums facination with Knight Phantom, compared to EK, which is weak to begin with. You pick up some weak class features that WOULD be powerful if you got them 5 levels earlier, and provided your phantom steed DOESN'T get shot out from underneath you (cause those things have what, 30 HP max?). In return for those "amazing" features, you give up 2 feats. One for Still Spell, the most WORTHLESS feat in the game, considering that the only spells you really want to be Stilling, those in the Teleport Subschool (Dim Hop, Dim Door, Teleport, G Teleport) don't have any Somantic components anyway. So, its a dead feat. KP also doesn't have the bonus feat you get from EK. So yea, you're already taxed for feats, and falling further behind. Better would be to take Eldrich Knight and take Snap Kick and Arcane Strike with those 2 feats. At least that way you won't fail on damage as well...

Well… as for myself it isn’t the flavor, it’s the ability to cast in armor and a progression much like EK. I saw Armor as a necessity and as a flavor choice… but arcane has a spell failure chance, and I’m already using divine magic and would like a chance at arcane… and still spell is worthless? I had no idea. Thematically.. er… well, on paper it sounded good I suppose…


Also, another thing...why Able Learner? What skills are you worried about keeping up? Concentration will be a class skill for EVERY level you take, except the 1 fighter level. So will Spellcraft, which you don't even need. Is it for Knowledges? You won't have enough skill points on a sorcerer chassis anyway, since you'll be Cha focused instead of Int, and without Knowledge Devotion, all they give you is metagame knowledge which won't really change much about the way you plan on punching stuff to death anyway...

For Tumble, Spot, Listen, Survival, Knowledge(nature), Bluff, Diplomacy, Move Silently, Balance… skills that fit his back story and would be handy to have. And help the group. I can explain my reasons for choosing each one if you like… though at this point I am afraid my reasons would only frustrate you further, something I do not wish…



Sorry, this post got a little ranty...its just...you are focusing on the WRONG things. You are trying to combine things that mechanically don't combine well in 3.5 and then claiming that they'll help keep you alive or help you defeat foes. They will do neither. Heck, you could grab a piece of wood, a chair or table leg, hold it in both hands, and with both Greater Mighty Wallop and Greater Magic Weapon and Power Attack and a Str focus instead of Dex focus, you'll do 3-4 times more damage per hit...easily. And thats not even HALF optimized, or using Polymorph. Its kinda frustrating.

well… my character needs to do damage. I don’t like the idea of using a sword, or bow, or blade, or club, but hands. Unarmed damage. So I looked to the monk, the class that has the best unarmed damage, and saw the progression. I did not like the class, so to mimic that part of the monk I looked for ways to increase unarmed damage. Improved Unarmed Strike was a natural… I thought it would help me to use my hands in combat since I was not a monk yet monks get it for free so it must be good… and the I found Superior Unarmed Strike, which mimics monk progression pretty well. So, I could now do Unarmed Damage, and damage that was close to the best unarmed damage in the game. I was satisfied. Then I saw Versatile Unarmed Strike, and it allowed me to do Blunt, Piercing, and Slashing! And I have often heard repeatedly to carry a weapon with more than one damage type, and to carry an extra dagger because you would need it. To cut rope, cut yourself out of stomachs… this single feat let me do all of that, which would mean I would need no other weapons. No dagger, no sword, no club, just hands. I was satisfied.

But then I am reminded that you will need a ranged weapon. So. What is a good ranged weapon? I am fine with a cross bow, but bows are not my thing. Alright, he will use a cross bow, but, what is better than a cross bow? Magic! Why a bolt when a bolt of Lightening? So, how best to get one to get that? Well. A Wizard is fine, but to memorize so many spells, to deal with so much book work. The Sorcerer was more my style, fewer choices but that would mean harder choices, and more spells to cast! Therefore. A sorcerer that casts spells AND if I added simply three feats, could use his hands. I wouldn’t need any weapons, magic and my hands. I was satisfied.

But then I am seeing, that a sorcerer can NOT fight in melee, is dead in melee. Ah. Not good. I love playing tanks in other games, and being on the front lines fits my style. So, how to get unarmed damage, spell casting for range, and something to survive melee? Well... how does a fighter do it? How a monk? Well, a fighter has a great deal of armor, magically enhanced, a monk has AC bonuses without armor, and sorcerers have ac bonuses without armor. So. How do other classes do it? A rogue has high dexterity… and dexterity helps lightly armored characters. Alright. So. How Do I get armor on my character or higher dexterity? …well, I like the idea of a character wearing a suit of armor to fight bare handed. But not full plate, perhaps something less, chain or scale looks great so I shall find a way to work with those. Ah. But arcane caster can not do such a thing, so. How do I fix this? My Sorcerer can no longer just be a sorcerer, a fighter would do well I think, to multi class. But. Then I am seeing that Sorcerer’s without full casting are pathetic, can not survive, and fighters can not even WITH good armor.

Well… How do I combine them then? For the longest time I searched for a class which combined arcane magic and spell casting. But each time I found more and more information that said if you wished to be survive higher levels you had better take a crazy amount of feats and PRCs, or have full spell casting. So. Full spell casting seemed to be the best way to survive. How? I am still not sure. So I went through my spell list and chose spells that would work in any situation, which were most useful. Well, lightening bolt and fire ball are awesome, water breathing is awesome, flight is awesome, I shall at least make sure I get those and be satisfied. But no. In appear in D&D for a full caster you must take this or that, or this, or this over that.

So, now I am looking at my character, whom I wanted to use his hands unarmed, who I wanted to cast spells for ranged, and thinking he can not survive at all. He needs armor to survive melee, he needs more spells to survive range. How do I get both? How do others? Wizards, do not. Fighters are better off as warblades. This is all I hear. So, I try battle sorcerer! And now I am being overwhelmed by people telling me it is overpowered. So… full casting is over powered? Casting is armor is over powered? Well… then, if they are over powered I must not need them so much? So maybe my character will survive. Everyone seems to think the bard does alright. So maybe a bard would be best. But ah, there is ANOTEHR character concept I have in mind that is most definitely a bard. But not this character. This character is… he is a Monk with his fists, a Sorcerer with his magic, and a Fighter with his defenses.

How do I make this so? Eldritch Knight allows this. And room for my fist feats to boot! Okay, so how do I make him survive? Well… not dieing when you’re suppose to die sounds good. Diehard looks good. …hmm… ah. I don’t like having to keep track of a spell component pouch, nor having my spells limited by not having the right materials. Eschew Materials seems good. I can cast without materials. Ah. Nonverbal spell looks good. I can cast while gagged! Being able to cast in more situations should help me right? Being able to hit things with my fists and do damage should help me right? Um. Well, now armor should help me right? Everyone uses armor right? Bracers of armor for those who don’t… so it gives you +9… and natural armor gives +5, deflection +5… okay, so… Do I get bracers… or armor? Well.. if I make special armor I can get +10! That’s better than plus nine. OH and if I get dexterity up, to the allowed +5 with my special armor my defense will be even higher. A higher defense will help me right? So, that is as high as a defense as I can get. I can’t afford the deflection or Natural armor… ah, but I can afford some dexterity, and if I improve my dexterity stat, it will improve my ability to dodge blows… and my hps won’t be so high… and I need high hps or a way to make it so my high hps aren’t affected right?

Well moving out of the way is the most effect way to avoid damage, so… okay but, now, what about when I can’t move out of the way? Magical armor is good, but weaker than this other armor I can get. And this other armor looks good, and it will protect me more than bracers of armor, or my magical armor. Okay good, and if I take a single dip into this one class I can wear it no problem! OR I can get these temples to make the arcane spell failure zero! No problem! Awesome! I can wear armor, use high dexterity, cast spells for range and hit things with my fists! This should work right? Where did I go wrong?


In conclusion, you're HP will be low, your AC won't be high enough, your AB will be low, and your damage will be low. You aren't protected from most of the mid-high level debuffs and disables, despite your "survivor" mentality. Your spells aren't strong enough to kill most CR appropriate, and they don't buff you well enough to help you defeat the foes you can't spell to death.

You are essentially a monk. Looks decent on paper (ZOMG 2d6 fists! LIKE GREATSWORDS IN EACH HAND!!! SO AMAZING!), absolutely fail in playtest at almost any level because it just doesn't synergize well. Maybe you'll have a softball DM who'll make things easy so you can feel important and contribute, but if that's the case, why prepare for the worst at all. See what I'm saying here? Does this make sense? We are trying to help, trying to stay close to your concept, yet making you able to contribute in a way thats more than breathing up all the oxygen in the room. Its hard with the amount of constraints you've put in place though...

…ah… um. Sorry? I wanted a character who wore chain mail, used his bare hands, cast at the least fire ball, lightening bolt, invisibility, water breathing, and flight. He can tank when the tanks fall, he can cast when the caster fall, he can help the rogue, he can help the ranger, he is skilled, he is charismatic, he is diplomatic! He uses his head to get around problems using his slight spell list to get through, around, over, or under in imaginative ways! He is part Expert, part Spellcaster, part Warrior! And while he will never overshadow the originals he makes all of them better at what they do. But he is not a bard, because a bard is not what I’m going for, no friends, he is something else entirely! But No, I can not have this. Because a caster is no caster than can not beat a wizard’s casting… a warrior is no warrior that can not beat a war blades maneuvers or a fighters feats, and an expert is no expert that can not do the amazing skills a rogue may do.

I had no idea it was so impossible, yet impossible is exactly what he strives for. For it is that exact reason I included the words “a knight errant, a mad man in search of peace of mind” for he dreams the impossible dreams, to follow that star, no matter how hopeless no matter how far. And I will find a way to achieve this, though I never meant for it to harm anyone along the way, never meant for it to stress out anyone along the way. I only wished to see if Eldritch Knight was going to be as viable as Sublime Chord was because I plan to fully use Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 for my third character. But for this, my second character! Ah! He the skillful fighting caster! I will find a way to meld the three, to fit my flavor, and still help my party. For those he sacrifice much to be self sufficient… if one can not support himself, how can one support others?

In truth I do not wish this to bother you further. So I will be more than happy to delete this thread, continue my impossible dream back in my own time, and hesitate further to share it with others. No matter how many deaths avail him, no matter how many times he fails or falls, this character of mine, I will make him great. Somehow, I will make him great. Thank you. You have helped immensely, though I fear all is undone in my ignorance. I never wanted this, but was so excited to have some help. For you see, the Wizards of the coast forum only gave shouts against optimizers, the optimization boards proved far to much rage at my smallest suggestions or questions, and my own group members meet only once a week. And in the rest of that time, we are far to busy to talk to each other, though I have tried. But it is online, and the only thing I can find to play. And I so dearly want to play. Please forgive me, and please think nothing more of it. I also regret if this post seems pleading, whiney, or false. I have no other way to say this, nor any other way to politely make you fully understand I never meant harm. I only signed on a few days ago, and simply became to excited when it turned out there were people actually willing to listen and try to help instead of simply call foul the optimizer, or burn the impossible dream.

I take it all in stride and salute you for providing stepping stones for my beloved character. I am sorry it came at a cost to yourself. Ah, again and again, for ever and ever I apologize… and too long I write. I leave it at this. Thank you. I am sorry.

quick_comment
2009-09-18, 08:52 AM
Still the same problem, in your example I'm dead with or without diehard after 115 damage. Party or not is not the issue it's the factor of being able to act once you hit that ground zero. So no matter how many Hps I have, I could ALWAYS stand to use more but ONLY with diehard can I still act and survive once I hit ground Zero/zero Hp. So you see it isn't the factor of having ten more vs. not having ten more, is the factor or being able to DO SOMETHING when that inevitable ground zero happens. Delaying is not better than being able to act where all others can not in the same situation. It's that ground Zero, that unconsciousness I am fighting, not the HP I have.


Ok, lets say level 15 with 100 base hp. With improved toughness, you can take 116 damage before you are KOed, and 125 before you die.

With diehard, you can take 110 damage before you die.

So you paid an extra feat to be disabled 6 damage earlier and die 15 damage earlier.

ken-do-nim
2009-09-18, 09:14 AM
You dont even get 8th level spells with that.

(This is in reference to my proposed pal 4/sorc 6/eldritch knight 10)

I was going to respond, "Sure you do, at 21st level". But my real question is this, "Why do we always think in 20 level builds?" Do people really play up to level 20 and then call it quits?

Grynning
2009-09-18, 09:20 AM
(This is in reference to my proposed pal 4/sorc 6/eldritch knight 10)

I was going to respond, "Sure you do, at 21st level". But my real question is this, "Why do we always think in 20 level builds?" Do people really play up to level 20 and then call it quits?

Most games don't even get TO level 20, let alone beyond it. Most groups I've seen barely get beyond level 8-10 if you're starting at level 1, because people have jobs and school and lives and you just can't always keep a group together that long. If you KNOW you're starting at level 15+, having things later in the build is fine, but in this case the OP is trying to come up with a character they could use in any game. When you're optimizing you want to make sure you get your abilities/spellcasting as early as possible so the character is playable in more campaigns.

Keld Denar
2009-09-18, 09:52 AM
Hey, sorry if that was a bit much. Some times, and more on the CharOp forums than here, we get people who come in and say "this is my character idea. I want to take Toughness 16 times. I have 1 feat left over...what feat should I take so that my character is useful?

Its just...yea, there really is no answer to that question. People offer help, suggest changes, and then the OP panics, insults people with words like "powergamer" and "munchkin" (I can't even count the number of times I've been called a munchkin, it still hurts) and then leaves.

Thats why its important to ask lots of questions, and keep an open mind. I'm trying to work with your concept, shore up your weak points, and trim some of what I see is excessive fat around the midsection. I'm trying to help you get a character with the concepts you want, without being too ineffective in any facet of the game, be it social, skills, or combat.

That said, what we've been working on is an archtype called a "gish". Gishes have been around for a long time, back in the old 1st and 2nd edition days of Fighter/Magic User mutliclasses and even older editions when "elf" was both your race AND your class. Back in those editions, it worked fine because the rules were different. It was fine to lob a fireball or 2, then wade into combat with your sword.

3.x changed this. Damage spells are now less efficient than they were. It takes a serious focus on damage spells and stacking metamagic effects like Empower and whatnot to be able to lob fireballs efficently. Gishes evolved across the edition from "gun and go" to "hulk and go". Nearly all of a gishes damage is gonna come from his melee prowass (plus offensive buffs). Nearly all of his defenses are gonna come from his magic. Thats the way 3.x has evolved. That doesn't mean "no nukes, no way", but in general, its a more efficient path to charge or fly or teleport into melee than sit back and "soften" foes up before you engage.

3.x rewards specialization, especially at higher levels. At low levels, its not as important, but things start scaling faster between 8 and 12, and even faster from 12+. Bad guys get much tougher, per CR, spells are more dangerous, and standing toe-to-toe, no matter WHO you are, is exceedingly risky. Offense is rewarded over defense because offense scales faster than defense. The bad guy is gonna hit you, a lot, and if you don't dump more resources than you have into keeping safe, there is a good chance you'll get squished. Dead bad guys, however, deal ZERO damage. So, if you focus on offense, at the expense of a certain amount of defence, your survivability goes UP, because you can destroy a foe before they can destroy you back.

Unfortunately, resources are NOT infinite. You only have what 7-12 feats on average, depending on class build and whatnot. You only have 20 class levels, barring epic, and you only have so many skill points, so many spells known. Thats why its hard to do EVERYTHING. You are sinking 3 feats to be good at unarmed attacks. Thats not bad, but it is expensive. You can work with it, but do note that you do so at the expense of abilities elsewhere, abilities that will increase your survivability MORE than they will.

As far as skills...yea, I'd like to have a character with ALL the skills he could ever want, but there comes the problem that a) 3.5 skimps out WAY too much on handing out skill points and b) many skills are opposed checks. If you don't have a decent enough modifier, you might as well not put any points at all in it. Yea, that sucks, but thats the flaw of the system. If you are level 20, and you have 5 ranks in move silent, even with a high dex and +silent moves enchantments, there is a good chance you'll be spotted by and character or monster with max ranks and a non-negative wisdom score. Its better to do a few things good than lots of things bad. Thats just the way the system works. Sorry.

So yea...those are some basics. Hope they help you learn a bit about building the character you dream of.

I'd go with something like Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/Ruather3/EK4 or something.

Feats:
1 IUAS, Power Attack, Combat Casting
2 Use UA rules to swap Scribe Scroll for Imp Toughness
3 Practiced Spellcaster
6 Craft Wonderous Item
7 SUAS (again, swapped out for Fighter bonus feat
9 Snapkick
12 Arcane Strike
15 Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness)
18 Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike)

Spells of note:
1st
Mage Armor (even if you are wearing armor, cast this)
Shield (Abj Champ makes this swift and uber)
Benign Transpostion (hey, teleport at 1st level!)
Nerveskitter (+5 Init! WOOOO!!!)
Enlarge Person

2nd
Invisibility
Mirror Image (more early, less later when you get Greater MI)
Bull Str (again, more early, less later when you craft +6 str belt)
Bladeweave
Heart of Air

3rd
Fly
Greater Magic Weapon
Greater Mighty Wallop
Haste (more of this early, till you get Boots of Speed)
Blinking (more of this early, till you get Greater Blinking)
Heart of Water (on demand FoM = Freedom of Movment)
Dragonskin

4th
Greater Mirror Image (your primary defensive spell)
Heart of Earth
Dim Door
Polymorph

5th
Greater Blinking
Heart of Fire
Teleport
Draconic Polymorph

ETC

All spells pulled from PHB, PHBII, SpC, CMage except GMWallop, which is from RotDragon.

See a trend? Most of the spells tend to be buffs, may of which have REALLY long durations, or swift action activations, or, if the duration is short and they have standard action cast times, they have HUGE effects like Polymorph and Greater Blinking.

I've been thinking, and you know what actually might be MUCH better at actualizing your character? A Monk/PsyWar build using the feat Tashalatora from the book Secrets of Sarlona (an Eberron book, but the function is universal).

Take 2 levels of Monk, then X levels of PsyWar. Tashalatora keeps your UAS damage and flurry progression up, while PsyWar gives you a lot of very Gishy psionic powers like Expansion and Vampiric Blade and Dim Door and Pounce and FoM and Displacement that keep you viable as a character for your whole career. Plus, Psionics are MUCH more friendly than Vancian casting for a newer player.

You won't be armored, but you could ask your DM if you can get "Ki Straps" or someting similar to act as an enchantable gauntlet, or just get an Amulet of Natural Attacks (Sav Spec).

How does this sound?

DragoonWraith
2009-09-18, 11:46 AM
Feats:
1 IUAS, Power Attack, Combat Casting
2 Use UA rules to swap Scribe Scroll for Imp Toughness
3 Combat Casting
6 Craft Wonderous Item
7 SUAS (again, swapped out for Fighter bonus feat
9 Snapkick
12 Arcane Strike
15 Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness)
18 Practiced Spellcaster ???
You have Combat Casting twice. And unless it's a pre-req for one of the classes (which is might very well be), you shouldn't take it at all...

quick_comment
2009-09-18, 11:48 AM
(This is in reference to my proposed pal 4/sorc 6/eldritch knight 10)

I was going to respond, "Sure you do, at 21st level". But my real question is this, "Why do we always think in 20 level builds?" Do people really play up to level 20 and then call it quits?

Because that means at 21st level you cant take epic spellcasting which means you lose, no save. You get 8th level spells at level 21. The person with 9th level spells gets to create epic spells which means he has more points of intelligence than you have hit points.

PId6
2009-09-18, 11:49 AM
Combat Casting is for Abjurant Champion.

quick_comment
2009-09-18, 12:17 PM
If you are taking combat casting, you might as well take shielded casting from races of stone. As long as you have a shield readied, you dont provoke AoOs for casting. This trumps mageslayer.

Keld Denar
2009-09-18, 12:34 PM
Yea, except as PI said, its a prereq for AbjChamp, which is WAY too awesome to lose.

I'll go edit feats...thats what I get for changing them around mid though while trying to cover all the prereqs... :P

Starbuck_II
2009-09-18, 01:46 PM
Because that means at 21st level you cant take epic spellcasting which means you lose, no save. You get 8th level spells at level 21. The person with 9th level spells gets to create epic spells which means he has more points of intelligence than you have hit points.

What DM actually allows epic Magic though?
Isn't that like giving a firecracker to a baby.
Sure it will be fun to watch once or twice in a while, but it is not responsible.

Paulus
2009-09-18, 02:35 PM
Hey, sorry if that was a bit much. Some times, and more on the CharOp forums than here, we get people who come in and say "this is my character idea. I want to take Toughness 16 times. I have 1 feat left over...what feat should I take so that my character is useful?

Its just...yea, there really is no answer to that question. People offer help, suggest changes, and then the OP panics, insults people with words like "powergamer" and "munchkin" (I can't even count the number of times I've been called a munchkin, it still hurts) and then leaves.

Thats why its important to ask lots of questions, and keep an open mind. I'm trying to work with your concept, shore up your weak points, and trim some of what I see is excessive fat around the midsection. I'm trying to help you get a character with the concepts you want, without being too ineffective in any facet of the game, be it social, skills, or combat.

I too have run afoul of both sides, “regular” players call me powergamer, optimizers call me reolplayer. As if either was a dirty word. When I first started playing D&D, that is bought the two books I own, I had one concept in mind. I wanted to recreate a character from a video game, Everquest to be exact, A Vah Shir Bard. Well, Catfolk Bard wasn’t exactly what I wanted. Catfolk Bard sublime Chord was. Better songs, more spells, and still the same bard flavor! So that left me with another choice, I wanted to build a better monk, or at least, have a character who fought unarmed, wore armor, and cast Fireball, Lightening Bolt, Invisibility, Water Breathing, and Flight. That was it. Because on paper that was all I needed.

All this extra monk fluff and the lawful alignment nonsense really killed it for me. But I literally could find no other build that accentuated Unarmed Combat without relying on Grappling. And Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist, the Fist of the Forest, Dragon Eye Adept, Reaping Mauler you name it… all had something out of place that simply didn’t match concept. Most scoffed at armor yet from what I could tell, couldn’t survive without it. So I turned to fighter and I REAAAAALLLY tricked out a fighter. I took every little nook in the book, and for my efforts, my first false start DM told me I was banned from playing that fighter or ever recreating it again. The fact the group latter dissolved without us playing a single time did little to erase the shock of that.

And besides everyone was telling me Fighters were nothing, and I mean NOTHING compared to spellcasters. And oh how I’ve had so many tell me about Wizards can do this and this and this and become gods etc etc etc. but I didn’t WANT to play a wizard. None of the memorize and choose spells everyday classes are of my liking. I COULD play them, but I don’t WANT to. So. I stuck with Sorcerer. Gave him unarmed damage equivalent to a monk, and then tried to give him armor. But it is very apparent that THAT is not enough. It seems casters can only survive if they take these spels and if you take others you will die. So. I do not want a cookie cutter caster, or a cookie cutter leap attack, charging whatever fighter. So my search continues…


That said, what we've been working on is an archtype called a "gish". Gishes have been around for a long time, back in the old 1st and 2nd edition days of Fighter/Magic User mutliclasses and even older editions when "elf" was both your race AND your class. Back in those editions, it worked fine because the rules were different. It was fine to lob a fireball or 2, then wade into combat with your sword.--

As far as skills...yea, I'd like to have a character with ALL the skills he could ever want, but there comes the problem that a) 3.5 skimps out WAY too much on handing out skill points and b) many skills are opposed checks. If you don't have a decent enough modifier, you might as well not put any points at all in it. Yea, that sucks, but thats the flaw of the system. If you are level 20, and you have 5 ranks in move silent, even with a high dex and +silent moves enchantments, there is a good chance you'll be spotted by and character or monster with max ranks and a non-negative wisdom score. Its better to do a few things good than lots of things bad. Thats just the way the system works. Sorry.

I would gladly give up numerous caster levels for melee, the only spells I want, simply for fun and function are Lightening Bolt, Fire Ball, Flight, Water Breathing, Invisibility, and Alterself or Polymorph. Changing shape is great fun. However from what I am hearing Fire Ball and Lightening Bolt are not enough, you need the higher powered ones, and different damage types… and melee is never enough. And as far as skill go, the only ones I really want are Sense Motive, Bluff, Knowledge (nature), Survival, Spot, Listen, Diplomacy, Move Silently, Tumble, Search. But I can’t seem to find one that fits and allows for these, and as you said, they are hard to pay for to keep up. Able Learner at least makes it possible. Ahh, you should have seen my fighter. Well. Hey why don’t you?

Please don’t be frustrated by him, it was my first attempt at optimization.
(F) is for Fighter Bonus feat. Heh.
1. 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Able Learner, Endurance, (F)Improved Unarmed Strike
2. 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 (F)Versatile Unarmed Strike
3. 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Superior Unarmed Strike, Applied Force +1
4. 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 (F)Improved Grapple
5. 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Applied Force +2
6. 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 (F)Combat Expertise, Diehard
7. 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Applied Force +3
8. 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 (F)Deflect Arrows
9. 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Snap Kick, Applied Force +4
10. 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 (F)Improved Disarm
11. 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Applied Force +5
12. 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 (F)Improved Combat Expertise, Power Attack
13. 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Applied Force +6
14. 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 (F)Combat Reflexes
15. 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Leap Attack, Applied Force +7
16. 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 (F)???
17. 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Applied Force +8
18. 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Iron Will, (F)???
19. 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Applied Force +9
20. 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 (F)???


heh! That was my fighter. The first version of “The Uncalled.” No arcane, no Divine just his hands, melee… And possibly a full blade… In any case. It was certainly not enough. Casters would destroy me! So I wanted to find a middle ground. Hence the addition of spell casting. So here I am trying to mix these two at a reasonable level. And I am failing many times. But I don’t want to take others with me via accident. I will look at it very closely at each new spell you have brought to my attention and here are some questions for the ones I do know…

1. Mage Armor: Thought Mage Armor and regular armor bonus didn’t stack?
2. Benign transportation: Is teleport at first level very good?
3. Mirror Image: Seems casters can’t survive without this… honestly I just don’t like how it looks. But if I must bow to unbreakable conventions I will.
4. Bull Str: Exactly how much STR to I need to be good in melee? Generally speaking I always wanted a high as possible strength for every character, and 20 seemed to be the best. So would having a higher STR be better than a higher DEX?
5. Blinking: Again a spell defense I would, simply because of thematics, cover with armor. Or Mage Armor, or items of some kind. But it seems required to survive as a caster.
6. Greater Mirror Image: Again bow to convention, but I still would rather Armor protect me than confuse my foes with many me’s.
7. Teleport: I’d rather Overland Flight than teleport, simply because I enjoy flying, is it acceptable to skip it as long as I have Dimension Door and possibly Shadow Walk then? Shadow Walk just sounds cooler, but again, I will bow to convention if necessary.

Draconic Polymorph: Ah, you’ve run across the secret ending! The very reason I take Wish as my one and only ninth level spell. The characters final note, that which would ends his story, would be that he wishes he was a Silver Dragon. And all live happily ever after etc etc. You see that is exactly what the character is trying to emulate… Natural Unarmed Attacks, Full Body Armor that gives him all the protection he needs, and Spell Casting. Monk failed me, The fighter idea failed me (or seemed unplayable), Bard was another character, so here I am sitting an a developed concept with nowhere to go with it. So I turned to the one thing which drew me to D&D…. the very end of his soul search would reveal him to wish only to be a Dragon!

But how to be a Dragon without being a Dragon? Dragons have ungodly good natural attacks, armor and spell casting. For a human to emulate that –without actually becoming a Dragon Adept, or Dragon Shaman, or Dragonborn- because they don’t fit the flavor and don’t get spell casting, and by that I mean, Lightening bolt, Water Breathing, Invisibility, Flight, and Changing Shape. They can fly and breathe fire though –sometimes- which is good. But A Sorcerer, who could wear armor, and attack with his hands seemed more powerful and thus survivable.

So, a Sorcerer, there is my spell casting. Superior Unarmed Strike and Versatile Unarmed Strike, well there are my claws! Now what about armor? Well that is what stumped me the most. I was looking for a way to get full scale mail, but it just wasn’t powerful enough, compared to chain mail which would give me +10 instead of just +9 from scale.
I’ve looked at all the Dragon Heritage Feats too, and the PRC’s that offer Dragon abilities, and none of them seemed as strong (on paper) as what I already had going. Apparently, from what I am seeing, they never will be- and I am better off just asking to play a Dragon from the get go…

In hindsight including this ending in the character concept may have helped to avoid all of this. But, since I concluded he would only get to be a Dragon at the very end of his career it didn’t seem necessary to bring up I suppose. It had no affect on his game play from 1-18 or so. Though of course he would take every change he got to Polymorph into a HD sensitive Silver Dragon. But people seem to frown upon using Polymorph, therein comes the powergamer and overpowered howls… so I was even further hesitant to mention it. I figured if he could fight unarmed, wear armor, and cast spells (which has always been told to me, and quite severely, that it is overpowered) then he should be able to survive (since it’s so overpowered after all) but now I am being told that even WITH nearly full spell casting, casting in armor, AND some useful melee options such as medium bab... there is no way he could survive! It’s really quite confusing.


I've been thinking, and you know what actually might be MUCH better at actualizing your character? A Monk/PsyWar build using the feat Tashalatora from the book Secrets of Sarlona (an Eberron book, but the function is universal).

Take 2 levels of Monk, then X levels of PsyWar. Tashalatora keeps your UAS damage and flurry progression up, while PsyWar gives you a lot of very Gishy psionic powers like Expansion and Vampiric Blade and Dim Door and Pounce and FoM and Displacement that keep you viable as a character for your whole career. Plus, Psionics are MUCH more friendly than Vancian casting for a newer player.

You won't be armored, but you could ask your DM if you can get "Ki Straps" or someting similar to act as an enchantable gauntlet, or just get an Amulet of Natural Attacks (Sav Spec).

How does this sound?

Very fun, I’ll have to look into it, I stayed away from psionics because of the point pool emersion ruin-ation, and not every world has Psionics. And it strayed away from the previous character concept… plus I don’t have that book. I’ll need to research it, and will definitely keep it in mind for a future character or possibly this one if there is no other way, and trust me I shall. I always take the time to research all you post, and consider it greatly. But if there was a glaring flaw that would not suit my play style, such as alignment lock, then that was when I would spoke up.


I really do sincerely appreciate everyone’s help, I don’t know how many times I can say it until it just starts sounding hollow. But when I see people getting frustrated over a problem I myself have accepted as nigh impossible, it really does hurt and make me regret seeking outside help with it. I know it is very constraining. After all Dragons are the most powerful creates second only to gods in D&D so a human trying to become one without actually becoming on until the very end and still surviving long enough TO become one just seems to shake the very foundations of D&D!

A human who wears armor as tough as a Dragon’s, who hands are as strong and deadly as any claws, and whose Magical ability is much like a Dragons?! Impossible! (damn you Dragon Cast… yes I am looking at you.) but then Humans and Dragons are different species… and Dragons were made very powerful. How a human could ever live up to that, and seeing as how the ‘Dragon mimic classes I’ve seen thus far just fall short in my eyes, is the very impossible dream I follow. Perhaps I ask to much? Perhaps I don’t ask enough? I honestly have no idea. But if a Dragon can do it… I’ll find a way!

As for Diehard… If going below Zero, or reaching Zero is not such a great possibility then I would more than happily dump it!! I had thought with my meager defenses I would most likely be hitting Zero a great deal of the time, so I wanted to be prepared for that eventuality, by being able to act. And no matter how many hp I had I thought hitting that Ground Zero was the largest threat. If it isn’t such a big one, I’ll gladly drop it! Thank you!

And once more. Thank you all! This my quest, my ultimate character. Maybe I should have began the entire thread with all of this information… but then… I was afraid of laying out something I have worked so hard on and seen time and time again that it just seems to infuriate people to no end. Which… despite my hopes, it seems to have again. STILL I will look into all suggestion! Seriously! And many thanks!

quick_comment
2009-09-18, 03:12 PM
Yea, except as PI said, its a prereq for AbjChamp, which is WAY too awesome to lose.

I'll go edit feats...thats what I get for changing them around mid though while trying to cover all the prereqs... :P

Combat casting is a prereq for shielded casting.

Keld Denar
2009-09-18, 03:57 PM
The problem with AC is that it doesn't scale fast enough and there are too many ways around it. AC won't protect you from getting Dominated, it won't protect you from Incorps like Dread Wraiths or Ghosts. It won't protect you from getting grabbed by a big bad grappler. And it just plain old won't be high enough to protect you from the really big bruisers with 35-45 strength scores and good BAB. You need other defenses, such as more HP, more miss chances, more protections, both physical and magical.

The problem with nuking with spells is dice caps. Fireball caps at 10d6. thats 35 damage, on average. That might be fine at level 10, but its less good at level 11, even less at level 12, and WAY behind at level 20. D&D isn't like a video game RPG, where you can fight things that are easier or harder if you want. You face what your DM comes up with, and you fight it, run from it, diplomancy it, trick it, or whatever. But you don't control it.

Anyway, the Tashalatora build does involve 2 levels of monk, which would require you to be lawful...for 2 levels. One you take those 2 levels, you won't take another level in it, so you are no longer required to be Lawful. Psychic Warrior doesn't have any alignment restrictions.

You can look up PsyWar on the SRD. Its all there, including the power list. A feat progression would look like this for a human:

1st Open
Monk Bonus Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk Bonus Monastic Training (ECS)
Human Bonus Open
2nd Monk Bonus Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows
3rd Tashalatora (SoS)
3rd PsyWar Bonus Psionic Meditation
4th PsyWar Bonus Practiced Manifester
6th Improved Natural Attack (MM1, +1 size of natural weapon)

And whatever from there. Since Psionic powers don't have verbal or somantic components, you don't have to worry about being grappled in a silence area, or even Held. You can take the feat Expanded Knowledge for Metamorphosis (Psionic Polymorph).

Stat Prioritization would be Str, Con, Wis, Dex, Int, Cha. Powers are pretty easy to pick. Expansion is a good one. Prowass when you need more AoOs. Psionic Lion's Charge is a no brainer. Psionic Levitate is ok when you need to get off the ground. Body Adjustment is ok healing. Concealing Amorphia is miss chance. Psionic Dim Door gets you out of almost any trouble. Etc. Its not hard to pick out the good ones. Crack open the SRD and check em out.

BTW, what the hell is Applied Force? You mention it in your fighter build, and I've never even heard of it? Is it from a 3rd party book?

quick_comment
2009-09-18, 04:14 PM
As for Diehard… If going below Zero, or reaching Zero is not such a great possibility then I would more than happily dump it!! I had thought with my meager defenses I would most likely be hitting Zero a great deal of the time, so I wanted to be prepared for that eventuality, by being able to act. And no matter how many hp I had I thought hitting that Ground Zero was the largest threat. If it isn’t such a big one, I’ll gladly drop it! Thank you!


You dont seem to understand. At level 10 whenever diehard gives you any benefit at all you would be fine without diehard, (having taken improved toughness). After level 10 whenever you hit negatives without diehard, you would be dead with diehard.

The above cost/benefit changes to level 5 if you take improved toughness twice (since diehard has a rather useless prereq)


After level 10 there is no reason to ever, ever take diehard (unless it is a prc requirement)

Paulus
2009-09-18, 04:22 PM
The problem with AC is that it doesn't scale fast enough and there are too many ways around it. AC won't protect you from getting Dominated, it won't protect you from Incorps like Dread Wraiths or Ghosts. It won't protect you from getting grabbed by a big bad grappler. And it just plain old won't be high enough to protect you from the really big bruisers with 35-45 strength scores and good BAB. You need other defenses, such as more HP, more miss chances, more protections, both physical and magical.

Taking the hint from Dragon skin, (and eyeing Dragon Breath) I am most… overwhelmed by the Spell Compendium. So many spells… I’ve been basing all of my spell lists off of core. Looking at this Compendium is, daunting! But I already see a way to get that +5 natural armor without cash! Well if I can continue this trend and get a +5 Deflection spell somewhere… then surely +10 from the special Armor, +5 Natural Armor from a spell, +5 Deflection from a spell, and +4 from shield spell (+9 with Abjurant champion levels) plus +5 Dexterity would be enough for defense? Surely?


The problem with nuking with spells is dice caps. Fireball caps at 10d6. thats 35 damage, on average. That might be fine at level 10, but its less good at level 11, even less at level 12, and WAY behind at level 20. D&D isn't like a video game RPG, where you can fight things that are easier or harder if you want. You face what your DM comes up with, and you fight it, run from it, diplomancy it, trick it, or whatever. But you don't control it.

Never wanted to control anything, I dislike the illusion spells, dominate and hold and such. I only wanted to survive meeting them. And I would gladly get rid of Lightening Bolt and Fire Ball for Dragon Breath, because then I could cast both as breath weapons! And perhaps, Eschew Materials removes the need to have Dragon scale on my person? In any case, for high damage, Shadow Evocation seemed a good option... since it did ALL of them. I’d need to worry about will saves and reflex saves… but I would on average be doing better damage then not?

Right now I’m going back to basics with all these suggestions. The goal is still basic Dragon emulation without using the Dragon emulating classes I dislike…. Unless.. there is something of them I am just not seeing?

Anyway Fireball, Lightening Bolt, Flight, Water Breathing, invisibility, and changing shape. With a mix of Natural attacks and ranged spells the main method of attack, and armor (or spells and armor) as his main defense. I will find a way!


snip You can look up PsyWar on the SRD. Its all there, including the power list. A feat progression would look like this for a human: snip

I certain do like this idea, but it is Psionics, and the power point pool is a turn off. Is there no way to do this without Psionics? I am certainly filing this away as a DEFINITE if I can not. Hell, if there is no other choice I can MAKE it fit the character concept. Though it’d mean learning Psionics, none the less, I will keep it.


BTW, what the hell is Applied Force? You mention it in your fighter build, and I've never even heard of it? Is it from a 3rd party book?

Actually I found it on the WoTC official page. Created to fill in those blank fighter levels it gave you a few options and Applied force basically gave you pluses to break or pull apart things with strength checks. Ah here it is! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a



After level 10 there is no reason to ever, ever take diehard (unless it is a prc requirement)

Really!? Absolutely none?!!! Then by all means I wont!

Thank you!

Keld Denar
2009-09-18, 04:40 PM
Dragonwraught Kobald Sorcerer6/Swiftblade10/AbjChamp4?

Use the Kobald Web Enhancement on the WotC website and use the Kobald Sorcerer ACF in Races of the Dragon. Swiftblade is also on the WotC website, and is pretty awesome. Then you just need to nab Draconic Breath and you'll have a breath weapon that you sac spells to, plus kobald gives you claw/claw/bite. Open the Draconomicon to find Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike which give you iterative attacks with your claws. Then just jack up the damage with something like Arcane Strike and various buffs. Not gonna be terribly powerful, but could be fun. Armor/Weapons might be a problem though...

Thats...about all I got, outside of maybe being a Totemist using the Draconic Soulmelds in Dragon Magic. Unfortunately, that involves learning Incarnum, which takes about 3 days to read through the book twice! Oh, and an unhealthy relationship with the color blue...


PS, Copper Dragons > Silver Dragons....so....nyeah!!!!!

:P

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-18, 05:11 PM
I mentioned Tenser's Transformation above as a way of getting full BAB, but it's probably not a good idea for this character, since it takes away your spellcasting capabilities and can't be put into a wand.

Divine Power on the other hand fits into a wand just fine and gives your sublime chord full BAB.

riddles
2009-09-18, 05:26 PM
you're talking about ramping up your AC a lot. you are aware that past level 10 or so, AC starts to mean jack ****. seriously, sack of the AC enhancing spells and take spells that grant a miss chance instead. you mentioned spell compendium - have a look at greater mirror image. one of my favourite gish spells.

Paulus
2009-09-18, 05:37 PM
you're talking about ramping up your AC a lot. you are aware that past level 10 or so, AC starts to mean jack ****. seriously, sack of the AC enhancing spells and take spells that grant a miss chance instead. you mentioned spell compendium - have a look at greater mirror image. one of my favourite gish spells.

Really?! well in that case... what is the best AC to have before level ten?Can you give me a ballpark estimate?


Okay here is what I'm looking at right now.

Fighter 1/Sorcerer 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/Swift blade 9 template
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Summon familiar 5 3
2 +1 +0 +0 +3 6 4
3 +1 +1 +1 +3 6 5
4 +2 +1 +1 +4 6 6 3
5 +2 +1 +1 +4 6 6 4
1 +1 +0 +0 +2 Abj. armor, Extend abj. 6 6 5 3
2 +2 +0 +0 +3 Swift abjuration 6 6 6 4
3 +3 +1 +1 +3 6 6 6 5 3
4 +4 +1 +1 +4 Arcane boost 6 6 6 6 4
5 +5 +1 +1 +4 Martial arcanist 6 6 6 6 5 3
1 +1 +0 +2 +2 Spring Attack, swift surge +1/+0 ft.
2 +2 +0 +3 +3 Blurred alacrity 6 6 6 6 6 4
3 +3 +1 +3 +3 Sudden casting 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
4 +4 +1 +4 +4 Arcane reflexes, swift surge +1/+10 ft.
5 +5 +1 +4 +4 Evasive celerity 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
6 +6 +2 +5 +5 Fortified hustle 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
7 +7 +2 +5 +5 Bounding Assault, swift surge +2/+10 ft.
8 +8 +2 +6 +6 Diligent rapidity 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
9 +9 +3 +6 +6 Perpetual options 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3


1. Able Learner, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge
3. Combat Casting
6. Mobility
9. Superior Unarmed Strike
12. Arcane Strike? Quick Recovery? Craft Wondrous Item? Weapon Finesse?
15. Versatile Unarmed Strike
18. Snap Kick

That's a crazy amount of attacks, and with great speed, and I plan to get monk's belt AND Greater Mighty Wallop to make Unarmed Damage even better. I plan to reinvest in the armor to make sure I get Deathward, and a stat bonus; should I focus more on Str or on Dexterity?

Also what say you on the spells Night Shield and Ray Deflection?

I plan to take Dragon Breath, Shadow Evocation (60%), Dragon Skin, and get a deflection bonus on my armor anyway since I can't seem to get it anywhere else. At least until level ten, where I will rely on spells and speed.

..kind of looses hope that he will ever eventually turn into a Dragon via wish. but he still has polymorph, and maybe if I mention it enough, I can get it as a reward...

Also, I chose silver dragon because they have Shapechange ability and can become human all they want. Something I don't want to loose. >;3

Keld Denar
2009-09-18, 07:22 PM
Um...You don't qualify for AbjChamp by that level. You only have a BAB of 2 after 5 levels of Sorcerer, and you need a BAB of +5 or more. You could dip a level of Spellsword provided you have 2nd level spells or more, and that'll get you an extra BAB and keep the CL.

You could probably go with:

Sorcerer6/Swiftblade2/AbjChamp4/Swiftblade+8, but there really isn't any way to get Sorcerer5/AbjChamp5/Swiftblade10...its just not possible.

As far as AC at 10, I'm thinking you should probably have somewhere around 28ish to be in good position. Thats a pretty tough number to hit, especially without much in the way of armor.

Also, if you are gonna display a build, use the {table] commands with | to space it out. This makes things a LOT easier. Hit Quote post to check out this example

{table=Header]LVL|Class|BAB|F|R|W|Feat|Ability
1|Figher1|+1|+2|+0|+0|Power Attack, Cleave|
[/table]

etc. Makes things MUCH easier to read. Thanks.

PS, you can get Mobility (the feat) as an armor enhancement. Just don't lose that armor, but it saves you a feat!

For Death Ward, I'd either get Death Ward x3 on Armor + Shield + Bracers or just pay up and get Soul Fire. Its a +4 equiv in BoED that gives full continuous Death Ward, while the Death Ward in the MIC is only once per day for each +1, and eats up your immediate action, meaning you can't cast swift spells the next round.

While it won't raise your net AC, Scintilating Scales in the Spell Compendium is a 2nd level wiz/sorc spell that'll convert the natural armor bonus from Dragon Skin from a NA bonus to a Deflection bonus. This is useful because your TOUCH AC only benefits from size, dex, deflection, and dodge. This helps protect you a bit from nasty incorp undead and bad guy wizards with bad touch rays. Since its an Abjuration and only 2nd level, it's automatically Quickened once you have 4 levels of AbChamp, making it a fairly useful spell.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-18, 07:45 PM
339 used to have a build called the Ultimate Assassin, that would fulfill the vast majority of what you asked. Let's see if I remember it :

Factotem 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6

That looks right...I think. Be sure to take Hunter's Eye as your Unseen Seer spell, for SA. You'll be able to effectively melee from the BAB, you've got a base CL of 18, and 9th level spells. Plus, your spells known aren't limited :D

Bang
2009-09-18, 09:15 PM
You know, I probably would have just pointed at a Duskblade with a Monk or Rogue dip at level 1.

It's easy and you wouldn't invite any of the suspicious looks or rolled eyes that character sheets laden with 5+ classes tend to bring.

If you want to pick it up a notch, add Able Learner, replace Rogue with either the Feat Rogue variant or Factotum and tack some Abjurant Champion levels on after Duskblade 13.

Or Bard 1/Duskblade 9 as entrance to Sublime Chord, possibly adding Abjurant Champion, Sacred Exorcist or Eldritch Knight. But then you get the looks again...

Paulus
2009-09-19, 12:17 AM
Um...You don't qualify for AbjChamp by that level. You only have a BAB of 2 after 5 levels of Sorcerer, and you need a BAB of +5 or more. You could dip a level of Spellsword provided you have 2nd level spells or more, and that'll get you an extra BAB and keep the CL.

You could probably go with:

Sorcerer6/Swiftblade2/AbjChamp4/Swiftblade+8,


Problem with that is I need to burn a feet for learning a martial weapon then, which is prereq for both swift blade and Abjurant champion. And can’t take spell sword without martial weapon proficiency from fight or barb etc etc.


As far as AC at 10, I'm thinking you should probably have somewhere around 28ish to be in good position. Thats a pretty tough number to hit, especially without much in the way of armor.

sweet bahamut…


PS, you can get Mobility (the feat) as an armor enhancement. Just don't lose that armor, but it saves you a feat!
A quality that passes for the feat? Nice! But, on the whole, troublesome, makes item dependency a must.

Maybe I should cut out Abjurant champion for something that meshes better with swift blade and Sorcerer… something without a feat prereq. I really like swift blade, it thematically matches better, speed over durability and gives me those coveted defenses of miss chance and spell fail against me… and abjurant champion is nice in numbers, but again, Swiftblade offers better defense since I would only be using shield from it mostly… at least as far as I’ve seen. I’m going to look into other options that would still fit the goal. I’ll mess with it.


For Death Ward, I'd either get Death Ward x3 on Armor + Shield + Bracers or just pay up and get Soul Fire. Its a +4 equiv in BoED that gives full continuous Death Ward, while the Death Ward in the MIC is only once per day for each +1, and eats up your immediate action, meaning you can't cast swift spells the next round.
oo nice!


While it won't raise your net AC, Scintilating Scales in the Spell Compendium is a 2nd level wiz/sorc spell that'll convert the natural armor bonus from Dragon Skin from a NA bonus to a Deflection bonus. This is useful because your TOUCH AC only benefits from size, dex, deflection, and dodge. This helps protect you a bit from nasty incorp undead and bad guy wizards with bad touch rays. Since its an Abjuration and only 2nd level, it's automatically Quickened once you have 4 levels of AbChamp, making it a fairly useful spell.
NA bonus to Deflection bonus is better huh? What about keeping my Dexterity up?


snip

Unseen Seer? I’ll have to look into that. Thanks.


Snip

The Dusk Blade spell selection isn't what I'm looking for, very defensive, but not enough utility. Though I will look at Sacred Exorcist again... it gets mentioned a lot.

UPDATE:
I'm looking into Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade combos. If I'm going to be accused of optimization, then by bahamut! I'm going to go for broke ...something like this.


{table=Header]LVL|Class|BAB|Saves|Ability|Spells Per Day
1| Battle Sorcerer|+0|+0 +0 +2|Summon Familiar|4 2
2| Battle Sorcerer|+1|+0 +0 +3|-|5 3
3| Battle Sorcerer|+2|+1 +1 +3|-|5 4
4| Battle Sorcerer|+3|+1 +1 +4|-|5 5 2
5| Battle Sorcerer|+3|+1 +1 +4|-|5 5 3
1|Swiftblade|+1|+0 +2 +2|Spring Attack, swift surge +1/+0 ft.
2|SwiftBlade|+2| +0 +3 +3|Blurred alacrity|5 5 4 2
1|Abjurant Champion|+1| +0 +0 +2|Abj. armor, Extend Abj.|5 5 5 3
2|Abjurant Champion|+2| +0 +0 +3|Swift abjuration|5 5 5 4 2
3|Abjurant Champion|+3| +1 +1 +3|-|5 5 5 5 3
4|Abjurant Champion|+4| +1 +1 +4|Arcane boost|5 5 5 5 4 2
5|Abjurant Champion|+5 |+1 +1 +4|Martial arcanist|5 5 5 5 5 3
3|Swiftblade|+3|+1 +3 +3|Sudden casting |5 5 5 5 5 4 2
4|SwiftBalde|+4|+1 +4 +4|Arcane reflexes, swift surge +1/+10 ft.
5|Swift Blade|+5| +1 +4 +4|Evasive celerity|5 5 5 5 5 5 3
6|Swift Blade|+6|+2 +5 +5|Fortified hustle|5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2
7|Swift Blade|+7|+2 +5 +5|Bounding Assault, swift surge +2/+10 ft.
8|Swift Blade|+8|+2 +6 +6|Diligent rapidity|5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3
9|Swift Blade|+9|+3 +6 +6|Perpetual options|5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
10|Swift Blade|+10|+3 +7 +7|Innervated speed, swift surge +2/+20 ft.
[/table]

And the feats being:
1. Able Learner, Dodge
3. Mobility
6. Combat Casting
9. Improved Unarmed Strike
12. Versatile Unarmed Strike
15. Superior Unarmed Strike
18. Craft Wondrous Item.

hmmm possible? Anyone care to double check? I think I met all prereqs... but good bab, armored casting, casting up to lvl 7, I mmust have done somethingw rong somewhere... sure its minus a few caster levels and less spells per day and spells known... but going for broke that I am... I may look into Flaws for extra Feats. hmmm...

Thanks everyone!!

ex cathedra
2009-09-19, 02:29 PM
Sorcerer can't qualify for Swiftblade until sixth level, due to haste being a third level spell. Personally, I'd go Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 9. That build still grants you 9th level spells. Improved Natural Attack would increase your unarmed damage as if you were a size larger. You need arcane strike. If you don't mind being a good-aligned wizard, you can cast Greater Luminous Armor. It's a sanctified spell from the Book of Exalted Deeds, is abjuration, and grants +8 armor AC while having none of the heavy armor drawbacks. Additionally, anyone who attacks you in melee takes a -4 to attack. With Abj Champ, that's +22 AC between shield and GLA.

Edit: to clarify, for the most part, non-kobold LA+0 races can't qualify with 5 sorcerer levels.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 03:20 PM
Sorcerer can't qualify for Swiftblade until sixth level, due to haste being a third level spell. Personally, I'd go Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 9. That build still grants you 9th level spells. Improved Natural Attack would increase your unarmed damage as if you were a size larger. You need arcane strike. If you don't mind being a good-aligned wizard, you can cast Greater Luminous Armor. It's a sanctified spell from the Book of Exalted Deeds, is abjuration, and grants +8 armor AC while having none of the heavy armor drawbacks. Additionally, anyone who attacks you in melee takes a -4 to attack. With Abj Champ, that's +22 AC between shield and GLA.

Edit: to clarify, for the most part, non-kobold LA+0 races can't qualify with 5 sorcerer levels.

Well, if it's only spells, yes you can. Precocious Apprentice grants a 2nd level spell, no? What if that spell is Sanctum Haste? That's available technically at level 1, and is a 3rd level spell outside your Sanctum. And most importantly, is Haste :P

Keld Denar
2009-09-19, 03:29 PM
Needs more Combat Trapsmith...they get Haste as a 1st level spell, IIRC.

olentu
2009-09-19, 03:31 PM
Well, if it's only spells, yes you can. Precocious Apprentice grants a 2nd level spell, no? What if that spell is Sanctum Haste? That's available technically at level 1, and is a 3rd level spell outside your Sanctum. And most importantly, is Haste :P

I do not think that a spell modified by a metamagic feat is actually a different spell.

ex cathedra
2009-09-19, 03:40 PM
Specifically,
Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste.

This is the problem, currently.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 03:41 PM
I do not think that a spell modified by a metamagic feat is actually a different spell.

It doesn't need to be. It's just available sooner that way.

EDIT : And I'll do one better for qualification with spontaneous casters : If all you need is spells, you can get to up to third level spells from Versatile Spellcaster with an 18 Cha as a Sorc. Less fishy than PA, and WAY more useful in the long run.

olentu
2009-09-19, 03:53 PM
It doesn't need to be. It's just available sooner that way.

EDIT : And I'll do one better for qualification with spontaneous casters : If all you need is spells, you can get to up to third level spells from Versatile Spellcaster with an 18 Cha as a Sorc. Less fishy than PA, and WAY more useful in the long run.

Or alternatively since there is no such spell as "sanctum haste" it would be impossible to get using precocious apprentice as until the spell haste is known one can not apply sanctum spell and one can not learn haste without applying sanctum spell.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 04:11 PM
Or alternatively since there is no such spell as "sanctum haste" it would be impossible to get using precocious apprentice as until the spell haste is known one can not apply sanctum spell and one can not learn haste without applying sanctum spell.

How you add it to your spells known is your problem ;) I just mentioned how to be able to cast it at first level if you have the right feat.

olentu
2009-09-19, 04:20 PM
How you add it to your spells known is your problem ;) I just mentioned how to be able to cast it at first level if you have the right feat.

Ah I see where the problem was. I was assuming that you were giving something that actually worked as a complete trick. So in that case it would depend on the specific wording of the precocious apprentice feat as to whether or not it would work. But I see little reason to look it up and see if it would work as without the missing pieces this would not work assuming that precocious apprentice is worded in any way similar to what I remember.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 04:24 PM
Ah I see where the problem was. I was assuming that you were giving something that actually worked as a complete trick. So in that case it would depend on the specific wording of the precocious apprentice feat as to whether or not it would work. But I see little reason to look it up and see if it would work as without the missing pieces this would not work assuming that precocious apprentice is worded in any way similar to what I remember.

That, and if you can get Haste as a spell known anyhow, Versatile Spellcaster is WAY less fishy, and WAY more useful anyhow :)

EDIT : By the way, to the OP, was your express goal maximum versatility with minimum book investment (i.e. Core + Completes)? If so, I can dig up a few gish builds that still hit the magic 16/17 minimums with extra perks. And if you want convoluted, I believe I have a triple 9 (arcane, divine, maneuvers) sitting around too, that requires a good helping of fermunda to work >.>

olentu
2009-09-19, 04:35 PM
That, and if you can get Haste as a spell known anyhow, Versatile Spellcaster is WAY less fishy, and WAY more useful anyhow :)

Yeah it would be much more useful later in the characters career. Though there is the whole third level slots thing that might be a problem depending on the wording. Though possibly one could use the dragon's blood pool to get around that but as I can not remember the exact wording on said pool I can not say for sure.

Paulus
2009-09-19, 08:37 PM
That, and if you can get Haste as a spell known anyhow, Versatile Spellcaster is WAY less fishy, and WAY more useful anyhow :)

EDIT : By the way, to the OP, was your express goal maximum versatility with minimum book investment (i.e. Core + Completes)? If so, I can dig up a few gish builds that still hit the magic 16/17 minimums with extra perks. And if you want convoluted, I believe I have a triple 9 (arcane, divine, maneuvers) sitting around too, that requires a good helping of fermunda to work >.>

Gah, blasted zero level spell's per day numbers tricking me into thinking it was first level!

Right now I'm musing over classes and such... My ultimate goal is in two words Dragon emulation (without the classes that actually do it, because I'm just not seeing them as any good). Must be able to spontaneously (because I prefer Sorcerer) cast Breath fire, Lightening Bolt, Flight, Water Breathing, Invisibility, and at least polymorph. With a mix of Natural attacks (provided by three feats any classes I choose must have room for.), and ranged spells the main method of attack. Armor (or spells and armor) as his main defense.

Thus far, because of flavor, Swift Blade and Battle Sorcerer are my two definites. I am apparently full out making a GISH build, though honestly I was just trying to fit a concept that would survive for what I wanted it to do. And apparently it takes a GISH. SO BE IT! bwa ha ha ha! ...only now I'm having trouble squeezing one little this or that out of it. If you know of any thing better by all means suggest it and I'll research it, as I've done for all suggestions. And Thank you for all of it!

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 08:48 PM
Gah, blasted zero level spell's per day numbers tricking me into thinking it was first level!

Right now I'm musing over classes and such... My ultimate goal is in two words Dragon emulation (without the classes that actually do it, because I'm just not seeing them as any good). Must be able to spontaneously (because I prefer Sorcerer) cast Breath fire, Lightening Bolt, Flight, Water Breathing, Invisibility, and at least polymorph. With a mix of Natural attacks (provided by three feats any classes I choose must have room for.), and ranged spells the main method of attack. Armor (or spells and armor) as his main defense.

Thus far, because of flavor, Swift Blade and Battle Sorcerer are my two definites. I am apparently full out making a GISH build, though honestly I was just trying to fit a concept that would survive for what I wanted it to do. And apparently it takes a GISH. SO BE IT! bwa ha ha ha! ...only now I'm having trouble squeezing one little this or that out of it. If you know of any thing better by all means suggest it and I'll research it, as I've done for all suggestions. And Thank you for all of it!

Ultimate in dragon emulation is getting the DM to allow A)Battle variant that sorcs get for Favored Souls, and B)the Pathfinder Dragon bloodline for Sorcs. You end up with full casting spontaneously (with several dirty tricks for expanding spells known including my favorite Tome), d12 HD, and full BAB. You could make a case too for taking Academic Priest, keying it off Int instead of Cha, and allowing for high skills since you'll be pumping Int to cast. Also gives you an excuse to take those two burninating breath weapon feats as a panic button reset switch :P

Paulus
2009-09-19, 10:37 PM
Ultimate in dragon emulation is getting the DM to allow A)Battle variant that sorcs get for Favored Souls, and B)the Pathfinder Dragon bloodline for Sorcs. You end up with full casting spontaneously (with several dirty tricks for expanding spells known including my favorite Tome), d12 HD, and full BAB. You could make a case too for taking Academic Priest, keying it off Int instead of Cha, and allowing for high skills since you'll be pumping Int to cast. Also gives you an excuse to take those two burninating breath weapon feats as a panic button reset switch :P

Whats books are these from? I'm having trouble locating what you're talking about. Versatile Spell Caster sounds good, but I need sources for it too please!

Thanks!

KellKheraptis
2009-09-19, 10:41 PM
Whats books are these from? I'm having trouble locating what you're talking about. Versatile Spell Caster sounds good, but I need sources for it too please!

Thanks!

Um...VS is in Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic, I believe. Academic Priest was probably Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and possibly also in Dragon mag. The two breath weapon feats were in one of the three "Dragon" theme books, RoD, DrM, or Draconomicon. The two added size and duration to the breath weapon, with no limit to how many times they may be applied, adding only time to the breath weapon. So burninate a mile as a dragonborn and lose the breath weapon for a week, or burninate the plane and kiss it goodbye for a century. Or polymorph into something and lose the one from poly that will go away in a few minutes anyhow :P

Paulus
2009-09-19, 11:30 PM
Um...VS is in Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic, I believe. Academic Priest was probably Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and possibly also in Dragon mag. The two breath weapon feats were in one of the three "Dragon" theme books, RoD, DrM, or Draconomicon. The two added size and duration to the breath weapon, with no limit to how many times they may be applied, adding only time to the breath weapon. So burninate a mile as a dragonborn and lose the breath weapon for a week, or burninate the plane and kiss it goodbye for a century. Or polymorph into something and lose the one from poly that will go away in a few minutes anyhow :P

Bah... alright I don't think I can swing it. And one less level of Abjurant champion isn't THAT bad considering. I think I've scoured enough, it seemed the best bet is...



{table=Header]LVL|Class|BAB|F-R-W|Feat|Ability/Spells Per Day
1| Battle Sorcerer |+0| +0 +0 +2| Summon Familiar|4 2
2| Battle Sorcerer |+1| +0 +0 +3 |-|5 3
3| Battle Sorcerer |+2| +1 +1 +3 |-|5 4
4| Battle Sorcerer |+3|+1 +1 +4 |-|5 5 2
5| Battle Sorcerer |+3|+1 +1 +4 |-|5 5 3
6| Battle Sorcerer| +4|+2 +2 +5|-|5 5 4 2
1 | Swiftblade |+1|+0 +2 +2 | Spring Attack, swift surge +1/+0 ft.
2 | SwiftBlade |+2| +0 +3 +3 | Blurred alacrity|5 5 5 3
1| Abjurant Champion |+1| +0 +0 +2 |Abj. armor, Extend Abj.| 5 5 5 4 2
2 | Abjurant Champion |+2| +0 +0 +3 |Swift abjuration|5 5 5 5 3
3 | Abjurant Champion |+3| +1 +1 +3 |-|5 5 5 5 4 2
4 | Abjurant Champion |+4| +1 +1 +4 | Arcane boost | 5 5 5 5 5 3
3 |Swiftblade |+3 |+1 +3 +3 | Sudden casting | 5 5 5 5 5 4 2
4 | SwiftBalde|+4 |+1 +4 +4 | Arcane reflexes, swift surge +1/+10 ft.
5 | Swift Blade |+5 | +1 +4 +4 | Evasive celerity| 5 5 5 5 5 5 3
6 | Swift Blade |+6 |+2 +5 +5 | Fortified hustle | 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2
7 | Swift Blade |+7 |+2 +5 +5 | Bounding Assault, swift surge +2/+10 ft.
8| Swift Blade |+8 | +2 +6 +6 | Diligent rapidity | 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3
9 | Swift Blade |+9 | +3 +6 +6 | Perpetual options| 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
10| Swift Blade |+10 | +3 +7 +7| Innervated speed, swift surge +2/+20 ft.
[/table]


Giving me a total of 18 bab, 7 lvl spells so I can hit harder, breathe fire via spell, throw lightening bolts, go invisible, breath underwater, Fly and change into a dragon anytime I like, heal myself and others, and outright do spooky fun things. Flavorful defenses from pure speed, pure speed to get in and out of battle so things CAN'T hit me thereby being able to go toe to toe and at the same time NOT going toe to toe, which basically means off tanking. Wearing armor for defense and casting spells for defense, attacking unarmed and with the help of spells and class features (such as arcane boost) have an untold number of strange skills and decent Hit points, and generally be one all around awesome addition to ANY party on ANY world.

Gentlemen I think the mission is complete. And my dream, something to fight for. Oh yes, yes indeed! Anything further is just tinkering and fine tuning or playing about. Unless you can named me a class substitute better then Abjurant Champion, or whip out some wacky fun class i've never heard of which covered everything we've discussed and knock my socks off- I can consider this well done, stick a fork in it. Survivor period.

And just for fun, the character will bring to mind a Kung Fu hustle quote...
"In the world of kung fu, speed determines the winner. "
Take that monks!

Thank you so much everyone, I of course am still open to suggestions or ideas, but I pretty much think we've covered this particular fighting fool.
Thanks again!