Faerun or Ebberon

[evil-frosty]

So i was thinking of possibly to get the Eberron or Faerun campaign setting books. And I was wondering which one was better. I know they are very different. So which one do you prefer and why?

[shadowxknight]

To put it in the simplest terms:
Pick Faerun if you are into high fantasy.
Pick Ebberon if you are into fantasy/sci-fi mix.

[evil-frosty]

Can you please explain those to me as if i were an idiot? Having been in school for a month now i am sorta braindead with the same thing every day.

[Mongoose87]

Faerun is more traditional: Wizards are mysterious wielders of equally mysterious power. Gods are mighty and well-defined, and very real.

Eberron is like a world where magic replaces science. It is commonplace and it is used for everything. The setting is also open to darker-natured adventures - the rules even allow for more flexible Paladin codes of conduct.

[Gralamin]

Faerun also has vast amounts of epic level NPCs running around, while some of the strongest people in Eberron are level 13, and there are very very few people between level 15 to 20.

[chiasaur11]

Eberron.

It has dinosaurs and magic robots.

[ShadowFighter15]

And Magitek trains.

[sonofzeal]

Faerun is great for higher level campaigns, Eberron is awesome for lower level stuff.

Faerun is more traditional, Eberron is vaguely steampunk.

Faerun has a lot of outdated 3.0 material, Eberron is a much more polished 3.5.

Faerun has strict alignment codes and gods that take a powerful influence, Eberron treats alignment as far more optional and gods as distant vague presences.

[Elfin]

I prefer Faerun, personally- magitek isn't my thing. I like the post-Spellplague setting, even though I don't care for 4.0 itself.

[PinkysBrain]

Faerun is great for higher level campaigns
It is suitable for high level campaigns ... on the other hand it's poorly suitable for saving the world campaigns, or even saving the kingdom campaigns (because each and every one has people more powerful than you protecting it).

[lsfreak]

It is suitable for high level campaigns ... on the other hand it's poorly suitable for saving the world campaigns, or even saving the kingdom campaigns (because each and every one has people more powerful than you protecting it).

So basically, Eberron is a tradition save-the-world RPG and Faerun is an MMO where there's roughly 5000 people who can do it better than you. But in Faerun you get to (hopefully) have fun doing awesome things while trying to stay under the radar so you don't get splattered across the continent by Epic Mage #6438, while in Eberron you're pestered by everyone and everything because everyone knows who you are by mid levels.

[kpenguin]

Eberron is like a world where magic replaces science. It is commonplace and it is used for everything. The setting is also open to darker-natured adventures - the rules even allow for more flexible Paladin codes of conduct.

Personally, I find Eberron a helluva lot more light than FR, what with the semi-post-apocalyptic post-spellplague thing going on.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I prefer Eberron as well. Mostly because I haven't actually read the Faerun campaign book. :smallamused:

[Temet Nosce]

Eberron, I enjoy the more ethically mutable and advanced society tones with the darker parts contrasting. Faerun is a decent traditional alternative to Greyhawk, but not a special favorite of mine.

[sonofzeal]

It is suitable for high level campaigns ... on the other hand it's poorly suitable for saving the world campaigns, or even saving the kingdom campaigns (because each and every one has people more powerful than you protecting it).
Yeah, but in Eberron you have the opposite problem; by level 12-15 the party is rapidly becoming one of the major defining forces in world politics. You might not be individually as powerful as Vol or Jaela, but they're individuals and you've got a posse of allies just as powerful as yourself. You might even have more sheer force at your disposal than some of the smaller nations. This isn't to say you can do whatever you want, but you're already big-fish-small-pond pretty much regardless of where you are. This isn't to say the campaign couldn't work, far from it (plenty of room for just that sort of political intrigue and empire building, plus some save-the-world stuff), but the traditional image of travelling adventurers would fail apart pretty fast unless they're taking great lengths to hide their identities. There's also the "shopkeeper conundrum", where there's pretty much nothing keeping them from armed robbery of pretty much any store anywhere except their own morals.

Faerun, on the other hand, stays with the traditional archetypes straight up until at least epic level. Once you've got epic spellcasting the game changes, but until then there's always more powerful NPCs to reward you or punish you or praise you or ignore you, as the DM sees fit. The PCs might be the heroes of the story, but it'll be more because of luck or bravery or spirit or cunning, rather than the fact that they're some of the most powerful people in the entire world.

That said, level 1-10 I'd go Eberron hands-down, and past that I'd still strongly consider it depending on the makeup of the group and how they're likely to play. If the players themselves tend towards Chaotic Stupid, I'd go Faerun because they can do less damage there.

[Emy]

Has anyone mentioned airships yet?

Airships!

also robot armies!

and dragons that are not Color Coded For Your Convenience!

[Ealstan]

Question: Faerun vs. Eberron

Answer: Dark Sun :smallbiggrin:

[Gralamin]

There's also the "shopkeeper conundrum"

You mean the shopkeepers that are no doubt backed by the Dragonmark houses (In order to stay in business)? Keep in mind, the Dragonmark Houses are powerful, if not because of the individuals that make up most of it, then because of the sheer economic force they can bring to bear on threats.

[sonofzeal]

You mean the shopkeepers that are no doubt backed by the Dragonmark houses (In order to stay in business)? Keep in mind, the Dragonmark Houses are powerful, if not because of the individuals that make up most of it, then because of the sheer economic force they can bring to bear on threats.
The Dragonmark houses might be able to do something to the PCs, eventually, long after the fact, if the PCs are easily found or (as previously mentioned) have their own little empire. Still, any given group of ecl 12 PCs can probably wander from place to place, knocking over dragonmark-backed shops without all that much to worry about as far as their own physical safety is concerned. There are things a creative DM could do, honeypots and economic warfare and cursed items and well-funded teams of assassins, but it's a lot more effort than it is in Faerun where each town probably has at least one NPC you should be wary of, and a city would have dozens. In Eberron, an entire international organization might have one or two that are significant threats, and they're probably a long long ways away from you.

Again, sometimes the campaign and players allow for that, but sometimes they don't, and it's at least something to think about.

[evil-frosty]

So the big problem with Eberron is eventually the PCs are living Gods? Why dont you just change it around a little so there are more high level NPCs? I dont know the setting very well at all so i dont know if this will screw everything up.

[sonofzeal]

So the big problem with Eberron is eventually the PCs are living Gods? Why dont you just change it around a little so there are more high level NPCs? I dont know the setting very well at all so i dont know if this will screw everything up.
This is possible. Mostly it'll just involve re-writing the built in NPCs like Vol and Jaela and the King of Blades and the house leaders. Scaling the biggest names up 5-10 levels (yes, really) brings it closer to what one might expect in Greyhawk or Faerun, and creates much more room for more powerful minions and NPCs of your own.

[PinkysBrain]

Yeah, but in Eberron you have the opposite problem; by level 12-15 the party is rapidly becoming one of the major defining forces in world politics.
So? By that level it's time to start getting to the end game.

Epic rules are to point and laugh at, level 20+ is not a goal to aim at.

[paddyfool]

Of course, whatever their level, your PCs in Eberron will still have to avoid p***ing off the dragons.

[Thurbane]

Greyhawk! Oh wait, they already killed it off...:smallfrown:

[AslanCross]

I like Eberron not because of its moral grayness (which IMO can work both ways, because a character who sticks a strict moral code also has an opportunity to shine), but because its societies interact in a fairly believable way. It's kind of strange how nations in FR don't seem to acknowledge each others' existence.

1. Dragons also have a pretty interesting place in the Eberron universe. They aren't just "the old wise lizard with a pile of shinies on the mountain" or "the marauding pyromaniac with a pile of shinies in the cave" (though they could be), but are primarily an apathetic force whose attention you do not want to get---drawing the attention of the dragons of Argonnessen is likely to get you and every living thing within a hundred miles of you incinerated.

2. Psionics have a clear origin, so they don't look like they're just another power source. They're closely tied to the Quori (dream-beings) and thus don't look shoehorned into the setting.

3. Goblin equivalent of the Roman Empire (now downfallen), complete with its own form of crucifixion. The Dhakaani Empire was one of the most interesting historical background pieces in Eberron, IMO. I mean, despite goblins being ubiquitous and reasonably intelligent, they never had decent places in other settings and ended up just being orcs by another name.

4. Orcs were a druidic culture which saved the world from beings of insanity.

5. Elves are either ruthless Mongols or necromancers. Drow love white scorpions instead of black spiders, and they live in tropical jungles instead of underground.

6. Giants invented magic and actually had a great civilization before they pissed the dragons off and got pretty much wiped out.

All in all, Eberron feels like it gives a lot of fantasy tropes historical places in the world instead of including them solely because they are common fantasy tropes (which, frankly, is the taste that I get from Faerun).

Regarding the high-level conundrum---at that point the players begin attracting the attention of the Dragons of Argonnessen and the Lords of Dust. You transcend the petty politics of the nations and even maybe those of the Dragonmarked Houses and start to deal with the numerous great threats beyond Khorvaire.

[mikej]

Ebberon, for basically all the reasons AslanCross stated and because of the Warforged. I'll never turn down a campaign in Ebberon. Otherwise I like some aspect of Faerun. I don't hate it like I do with Krynn.

[Thrawn183]

So the big problem with Eberron is eventually the PCs are living Gods? Why dont you just change it around a little so there are more high level NPCs? I dont know the setting very well at all so i dont know if this will screw everything up.

Really I'd say it's just lazyness. The idea is that these characters exist at the end of the last war. At the same time the PC's are leveling up, clearly all the rest of the world should be getting back on its feet as well.

Yes, this can take a bit of work, but it's not really all that big a deal. In addition, Eberron really has the idea of people working together. Not even just people, now that I think about it, but entire countries/houses. Even if the PC's become really powerful, you don't mess around and not expect conequences. Of course, if you want to go to a different continent... well then you run into things like dragons. They aren't kidding when they say there is a space for everything in Eberron.

[Weiser_Cain]

Faerun with Warforged.

[Kol Korran]

well, i like both settings, but Eberron far more. Eberron lets the characters shine, while in Faerun they usually feel that they have little impact. plus, there are all the reasons that Aslan Cross mentioned.

all in all Faerun feels far less believable- all that powerfull magic running around (note that though in Eberron magic is supposed to be plentifull, it's only low level magic, and specific things like lightning trains and airships, which compared to FR realy isn't that much), the innumerable redundent overly meddling gods, the utter lack of rreal relationships between countries and so on. plus, it's overly dramatic- every year or two some catastrophe happens somewhere.

Eberron feels to me like a much more mature game, with the "shades of grey" mentality, and more intricate webs of interactions between entitites and organizations.

as to the high level "problem". though there are a few high level characters, major villains and their lieutenenats are always up to par with the PCs, and are as exceptional as they are (well, maybe without action points). besides, as allready mentioned, the different organizations i nthe world have long ago needed to deal with such powerfull characters, and have made quite a few contingency plans. their wealth, cunning and cooperation can always be considered a threat. lastly, the 5 nations are not the only source of threat- lords of dust, the dragons, the giant empire, the Sarlonan psionics and quori, the daelkyr, the undead of the blood of vol, the outer plans and more can provide enough material for adventures. and that's without considering DM created powers that are at everyone's disposal (monsters as i recall scale up to fairly high levels, no?)

i hope that helped, that is my opinion at least,
Kol.

[Salt_Crow]

Eberron is quite deliberately vague in the details of many important events/personalities, allowing DMs to speculate and incorporate them into their own plots and schemes.

Faerun on the other hand, is a much more detailed campaign setting where many things are well-defined and often statted out.

That's how distinguish between the two anyways. I'm more of an Eberron person however.

[Fishy]

I think you're all forgetting the most important part:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Stuff/Pants.jpg

[1of3]

Eberron is quite deliberately vague in the details of many important events/personalities, allowing DMs to speculate and incorporate them into their own plots and schemes.

Faerun on the other hand, is a much more detailed campaign setting where many things are well-defined and often statted out.

Except, when you only take the Campaign Guides it's the other way round. Faerun, by now, is simply too large to fit into a single book.

I found the FRCG quite boring. Pages and pages about kingdoms, and you do not really learn anything except the name of the ruler and maybe some random dungeons.

Eberron on the other hand is a smaller setting. Therefore you get a more complete picture with a single book.

[Bayar]

This is possible. Mostly it'll just involve re-writing the built in NPCs like Vol and Jaela and the King of Blades and the house leaders. Scaling the biggest names up 5-10 levels (yes, really) brings it closer to what one might expect in Greyhawk or Faerun, and creates much more room for more powerful minions and NPCs of your own.

HERESY !!! He is called the Lord of Blades.

In Eberron, unless you have a good connection, raising dead people is hard. So you need to be careful and not just waltz off into the Mournlands thinking "Screw safety, the priests will rez me if I die in a week tops."

[AslanCross]

HERESY !!! He is called the Lord of Blades.

In Eberron, unless you have a good connection, raising dead people is hard. So you need to be careful and not just waltz off into the Mournlands thinking "Screw safety, the priests will rez me if I die in a week tops."

On the other hand, you have action points for those last-minute saves.

[Kiero]

I can't stand magitech, so Faerun.

[bosssmiley]

Question: Faerun vs. Eberron

Answer: Dark Sun :smallbiggrin:

...is the correct answer. (Planescape or Birthright would also have been acceptable) :smallbiggrin:

[Morty]

I highly recommend Faerun, though while it's a decent enough setting for traditional high fantasy, this opinion comes mostly from Eberron's all-around badness. FR could use some improvements. That said, I find an abnudance of high-level NPCs a good thing, because it makes this world a belivable place - if PCs can reach high levels and become powerful, influential people, it means that there were NPCs before them who managed to do the same.

[Fishy]

I highly recommend Faerun, though while it's a decent enough setting for traditional high fantasy, this opinion comes mostly from Eberron's all-around badness.

You, sir, are required to explain yourself to my tribe of masked halfling banditos armed with boomerangs and riding dinosaurs.

[Morty]

You, sir, are required to explain yourself to my tribe of masked halfling banditos armed with boomerangs and riding dinosaurs.

I imagine telling them they're the reason I don't like Eberron wouldn't be a good idea.

[Athaniar]

When I first heard of Eberron I didn't like it. Trains and robots, that isn't true fantasy. But now, after actually having bought an Eberron book, I must say I like I'm rather fond of the setting. FR used to be my favorite, but it just isn't the same after the Spellplague and the hundred-year shift.

[Kaiyanwang]

When I first heard of Eberron I didn't like it. Trains and robots, that isn't true fantasy. But now, after actually having bought an Eberron book, I must say I like I'm rather fond of the setting. FR used to be my favorite, but it just isn't the same after the Spellplague and the hundred-year shift.

What Spellplague? I remember nothing about Spellplague.

[Mongoose87]

What Spellplague? I remember nothing about Spellplague.

I think it's something they did in 4e.

[AslanCross]

I think it's something they did in 4e.

He was being sarcastic. Many FR fans hate what 4E did with it so much that they don't consider it even canon.

[Mongoose87]

He was being sarcastic. Many FR fans hate what 4E did with it so much that they don't consider it even canon.

Oh! Like me and the three new Star Wars fanfics. Errr... movies.

[Kaiyanwang]

I think it's something they did in 4e.

*sit down in a corner with glassy eyes, shaking his head*
"Spell plague does not exist Spell plague does not exist Spell plague does not exist Spell plague does not existSpell plague does not exist Spell plague does not exist Spell plague does not exist Spell plague does not exist Spell plague does not exist.."

[Fishy]

I think the Spellplague might be one of those things that never happened. (http://xkcd.com/566/)


I imagine telling them they're the reason I don't like Eberron wouldn't be a good idea.

Well, they'd be pissed off, but it's a valid criticism. Eberron draws on the tradition of the old pulp adventure novels, and includes a whole bunch of elements that are sensational, ridiculous, awesome and silly. They're not to everyone's liking, and they're certainly jarring if you're not expecting them. However, the thing to understand about Eberron is that a lot of thought went into the silly parts.

The halflings on dinosaurs! have their own traditions, histories, values, questionable status as a nation, and a variety of interesting relationships with their city-counterparts and the rest of the world.

The zombie Nazis! live in a country with a fascinating and believable (in their context) history where even the Religion of Evil is presented in a way that suggests just as many sympathetic characters as villains.

The magic lightning train! runs on internally-consistent and well explained principles, and serves as a storytelling device that allows for wide, far reaching plots and a variety of exotic locales while still keeping the pace of the story up.

So... yeah.

[Kaiyanwang]

Even if, among the two, I prefer Faerun for setting, style and mechanics, I really love Eberron too.

Is full of remade victorian steampunk topos and well made, too. Simply, translate in a "dungeonpunk" setting. Wotc did something different, and very well.

If, say, forced to choose, I'd go with Faerun for my preference for fairy tales and epic games - a setting like faerun is better for things like this.

But IMHO wotc did a good thing with eberron. I managed to insert both, refluffed, in my homemade setting (with a crapload of other things).

[Fixer]

Wait.

So Eberron can be described as high-magic, low-level, pulp fiction, steampunk setting?

That's a lot of adjectives.

[Bayar]

Even if, among the two, I prefer Faerun for setting, style and mechanics, I really love Eberron too.

Is full of remade victorian steampunk topos and well made, too. Simply, translate in a "dungeonpunk" setting. Wotc did something different, and very well.

If, say, forced to choose, I'd go with Faerun for my preference for fairy tales and epic games - a setting like faerun is better for things like this.

But IMHO wotc did a good thing with eberron. I managed to insert both, refluffed, in my homemade setting (with a crapload of other things).

Actually, WotC didnt do anything more than choosing the setting. Eberron is the campaign setting WotC Wished they came up with.

[DragoonWraith]

Actually, WotC didnt do anything more than choosing the setting. Eberron is the campaign setting WotC Wished they came up with.
That's not true, Keith Baker wrote them 10 pages. EBCS is a 326 page book. Keith was obviously heavily involved in the writing of those other 316 pages, and is rightly called the lead designer, but at that point it would be more fair to consider him an employee of WotC anyway.

[Yora]

When I first heard of Eberron I didn't like it. Trains and robots, that isn't true fantasy.
Which is probably true. But whatever it is, it's very cool. :smallbiggrin:

[chiasaur11]

Wait.

So Eberron can be described as high-magic, low-level, pulp fiction, steampunk setting?

That's a lot of adjectives.

A lot of very likable adjectives.

[Bayar]

That's not true, Keith Baker wrote them 10 pages. EBCS is a 326 page book. Keith was obviously heavily involved in the writing of those other 316 pages, and is rightly called the lead designer, but at that point it would be more fair to consider him an employee of WotC anyway.

After they wrote 10 pages, a couple of then were selected to write a +100 pages book with more details and such.

[JellyPooga]

The choice between Forgotten Realms and Eberron for me can be summarised thus:

I've read some Faerun source material. I don't want to read more.

I've read a little Eberron source material. I'd like to sit down and read more.

Although Faerun has many books and many pages detailing every corner of quite a large world, none of it is very detailed. There's the odd snippet of info you'll read about some Guild in some town somewhere and you'll think "Oooo, that sounds interesting, where's the additional info on that?". You'll then go and look it up and the "additional info" comes to the sum total of "Oh, they're some guys and this other guy is in charge...oh and this gal you've never heard of but we're hinting that she's somehow important 100 miles away is secretly one of them too". It's just so disappointing that they've thought up all these ideas and then not actually followed through with any detail on three-quarters of them.

Eberron, from what I have read, on the other hand seems to go the other way. There's much fewer organisations and things to make you go "Ooo, what's that then?", but those few are detailed sufficiently for you to say "Hey, that's cool, I wonder how I can get to interact with them with my character/get my players to interact with them".

[DragoonWraith]

After they wrote 10 pages, a couple of then were selected to write a +100 pages book with more details and such.
Huh, I thought the 10 page thing were the ones that just Keith, Rich, and... the other guy did for the final contest. I could very well be wrong, though.

Still, there's a lot of other people listed in the credits. Keith didn't just hand them the EBCS already finished.

[oxybe]

eberron or faerun?

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff123/nveinus/OHYEAH.jpg

decision made.

on a more serious note, the various elements eberron puts on the table click better with me
-it's treatment of magic (low and high level)
-the cross continental influence of the houses and their organization
-the treatment of gods & alignment
-ect...

[Mongoose87]

eberron or faerun?

decision made.

on a more serious note, the various elements eberron puts on the table click better with me
-it's treatment of magic (low and high level)
-the cross continental influence of the houses and their organization
-the treatment of gods & alignment
-ect...

The gods in Eberron are actually one of my least favorite parts. I really like the complex pantheon and ensuing bickering of FR.

[Morty]

However, the thing to understand about Eberron is that a lot of thought went into the silly parts.


Even if the designers were to spend a decade thinking about dinosaur-riding halflings and magic trains or robots, it wouldn't change the fact that they're fundamentally silly and ruin immersion.
There are two things that Eberron does well though, namely alignment and treatment of "monster races". Alignment is as blurred as it should be and orcs and goblinoids are treated somewhat better than it's usual.

[oxybe]

The gods in Eberron are actually one of my least favorite parts. I really like the complex pantheon and ensuing bickering of FR.

funny enough the large pantheon is one of the things that turns me off FR.

[DragoonWraith]

Even if the designers were to spend a decade thinking about dinosaur-riding halflings and magic trains or robots, it wouldn't change the fact that they're fundamentally silly and ruin immersion.
I got nothing on the halflings (I don't think dinosaurs would even make particularly good mounts even given the option), but the lightning rail, the airships, the warforged.... all just make sense, in my opinion. In other words, what "ruins immersion" for me is when I see a land populated by great wizards who can spontaneously freeze the very air, but can't manage a simple refrigerator. I actually think that Eberron is high-magic done right, in a way that actually makes sense. Therefore, neither the magic trains nor the robots are so "fundamentally silly" that they cannot be made very serious and very fitting - because they are.

[Morty]

I got nothing on the halflings (I don't think dinosaurs would even make particularly good mounts even given the option), but the lightning rail, the airships, the warforged.... all just make sense, in my opinion. In other words, what "ruins immersion" for me is when I see a land populated by great wizards who can spontaneously freeze the very air, but can't manage a simple refrigerator. I actually think that Eberron is high-magic done right, in a way that actually makes sense. Therefore, neither the magic trains nor the robots are so "fundamentally silly" that they cannot be made very serious and very fitting - because they are.

Not everyone is fine with magic being used like technology. For me, Eberron's vibe is "we want to make a non-fantasy setting in a fantasy system, so let's replace science with magic".

[NeoVid]

Even if the designers were to spend a decade thinking about dinosaur-riding halflings and magic trains or robots, it wouldn't change the fact that they're fundamentally silly and ruin immersion.

How are trains and mass-produced soldiers silly, rather than logical, for a setting that's gone through a magical industrial revolution? I'm really not seeing a lack of sense in how they're used.

Edit: didn't notice your last post. My view matches Dragoon's, since my sense of immersion is broken by settings working in a nonsensical, not internally consistent way.

[Mordokai]

FR was the first setting I came in contact with, through Baldur's Gate and other Infinity engine games. As such, it tends to stick with me and I have very fond memories of it. Names like Elminster, Waterdeep, Mystra, Kelemvor and others... they bring a familiar feeling with them, one that is good. If your first adventures in the world of DnD were such epics as BG, you pretty much can't help but love FR. For nostalgia, if nothing else. I also posses FRCG and what I've seen in there confirms my feeling for the settings. Also, the pantheon. I can't help but like it. To me, gods being pretty much tangible and really there(for the lack of better word) is a good thing. And some of my favourite gods(and even more important, godesses :smallbiggrin: ) are placed in FR. So, bonus points there as well.

All that said, I'm still very fond of Eberron. While the whole high tech setting seemed weird from the start, they fit seemingly into the story. Warforged are a very good and interesting race to be played and the lighting rails are a good touch. And god, do I ever love Mournland and living spells connected to it. To somebody who is used to FR, Eberron will seem weird, to not say probably even off putting. But if you give it a chance, you may find out you like it.

One thing I don't like about Eberron is the deities. Most of them seem just... too undefinied. Like they are there, but aren't there at the same time. It's a little hard to explain, but I much preffer FR pantheon to Eberron's one. But this isn't enough to turn me away from the setting. So my final verdict would be, try it and decide for yourself.

[Raltar]

It is my opinion that...Warforged are the second worst thing to happen to DnD(4th edition being the worst). That makes me hate Eberron and everything Ebberon stands for.

I love the Forgotten Realms(though, I guess I should say that I started DnD in the Forgotten Realms and it is also the setting I have the most experience in), but FR still isn't my favorite setting. That would be Ravenloft. Followed by Plancescape. Then FR.

[NorseItalian]

Faerun or Ebberon

Neither. Krynn.

[FoE]

Neither. Krynn.

*Vomits uncontrollably*

Oh gods, don't do that to me again! :smallfurious:

As for my two cents, I love Eberron. So much of it ... the technology, the history, the conflict, the general vibe of the place ... it just jibes with me, you know?

A couple of people have complained about the gods. Actually, religion in Eberron is one of the things I really like. I like stand-offish gods who either won't or can't involve themselves in human affairs. Hell, in Eberron, no one is completely sure the gods exist at all. That resonantes with me.

Oh, and warforged are crazy awesome.

[FMArthur]

Eberron is, to me, a more realistic prediction of what a society would actually do with magic available, which I find very interesting. They're not stuck perpetually in the middle ages despite having magic more advanced than even modern technology, which is very silly if you ask me.

Faerun... I don't know, something about it makes it seem like a world filled with metagaming players to me.

[Optimystik]

I vote Eberron, and considering that I'm a NWN alumnus, that' s saying a lot. I wish there were a single-player CRPG set in Eberron; DDO is too "MMO-ish." But Eberron is just in general cooler than FR to me.

I miss the bickering pantheon somewhat, but then I realized that I never even notice half of the "gods" anyway. Who the hell even cares about Sharess, or Gaurgauth, or Siamorphe, or Shaundakul, or Istishia, etc?

And when you get down to it, the gods are all FR had. Eberron has so much more: more flexible alignments, cooler races, a sexy sci-fan setting, magic available to the masses. It all makes for much better storytelling in my opinion. As others have said in this thread, it's hard to feel like your actions are making an impact when you're sharing your stage with Elminster or Khelben or Amluaril or Fzoul etc.

[DragoonWraith]

Not everyone is fine with magic being used like technology. For me, Eberron's vibe is "we want to make a non-fantasy setting in a fantasy system, so let's replace science with magic".
My point was more that not everyone finds those things silly. You stated your opinion very vociferously and as-if-fact, which is what I was responding to. I realize not everyone likes it. Do you realize that some people do?

[GreyMantle]

Forgotten Realms has a lot of things going for it.
1) There are like thousands of dungeons, all with silly/hardcore names, like "The Nameless Dungeon" or whatever, just waiting to be plundered by your PC's. Therefore, FR (and probably Greyhawk, if it hadn't gone all shinu! on us), is pretty much Jesus on a stick for old-school-dungeon-crawlin'.

2) It's really, really, big. If you want to do something or find some obscure pseudo realworld culture, it's probably somewhere on Toril.

3) The Campaign Book really manages to capture that Tolkien-esque fantasy feel, with fey ancient elves, reclusive dwarves, cheerful halflings, and humans as the heirs of destiny, while still making it feel like you could run a D&D Campaign in it (something that Dragonlance, for all its various merits and demerits, never seemed able to do for me).

However, FR also has a number of huge fails:
1) It's really, really, big. While something has been written about just about every corner of the Realms, most of it is really minimal and/or generic.

2) There are way too many high-level characters in it. While some may say it's realistic to have a world with lotsa adventurers in it also have lotsa high-level adventurers, it's anything but realistic to have said world still exist given the absurd power of high level spellcasters unless you're operating on superhero logic.

3) Most of the big NPC's that gives DM's fan-ons are really annoying Mary Sue's. The deities that have more than three words written about them are likewise annoying.

4) The world just feels really static for individual campaigns. Given that nearly every nation is ruled by some Sorcerer GodKing, there's very little possibility for PC's to do something interesting involving multi-nation politics, like say, start a war or assassinate a ruler to let someone else take his place.

5) The world posits that things like fabricate, wish, or creation just don't really exist (although, to be fair, just about every published setting other than Planescape, Dark Sun, or Spelljammer did essentially the same thing).

Eberron, on the other hand, has lots of weird and different flavor, most of which is a love it or hate it thing (a lot of the flavor is a pretty decent extrapolation of what would happen in a world where magic was real, though). It too suffers from the problem that the economy falls apart as soon as the PC wizard or cleric reaches double digits, but because the entire world is structured around cool low-level adventurers and really powerful dudes are pretty much nonexistant, it's really easy just to have a maximum level limit of like 11 or something (given that this is when the game starts to break down and fighters become really useless as opposed to mostly useless, this isn't really a bad thing). In direct contrast to FR, the various nations and organizations of Eberron seem to have been designed with the express purpose of making it as easy as realistically possible to restart the Last War, cause the death of millions of innocents, and pretty much take over the entire world.

The nations and deities of Eberron are much fewer in number than FR, but they tend to be far more interesting than those found in Faerun.

[looks up and realizes he just wrote a needlessly long essay]

TL; DR version: Neither setting is perfect; it just depends on what kind of campaign you want to run. FR is good for old school dungeon crawls and superhero-esque games, Eberron is good for noir or pulpy lower-level adventures with a possible focus on more than just the next dungeon the PC's are going to loot.

[NeoVid]

It is my opinion that...Warforged are the second worst thing to happen to DnD



Yknow, it's an interesting coincidence that I've just recently heard a lot of Warforged hate right after I realized how interested I was in RPing one, since I don't usually put enough thought into characterization of my D&D characters.

Hell, I had no clue there was Warforged hate, even though I should keep in mind how there's hate for everything in D&D from someone.

[sciencepanda]

I'd go with Eberron. Standard Tolkienian fantasy has essentially been done to death, and it just strikes me as more fun to go with something more unorthodox.

And as for the whole magic being treated as science thing. In a world where magic exists and has definitive quantifiable traits which can be studied, Magic is, in fact, an aspect of science. The whole fact that Eberron averts the whole Medieval Stasis thing, which has always been an enormous pet peeve of mine, just makes the setting so much more refreshing.

[Fixer]

Even if the designers were to spend a decade thinking about dinosaur-riding halflings and magic trains or robots, it wouldn't change the fact that they're fundamentally silly and ruin immersion.I am inclined to disagree.

If I was physically inferior to the average (as halflings are) then I would attempt to team up with creatures physically much stronger to myself, and also less intelligent than myself. Dinosaurs are the best choice for this, really.

Magic trains are just a way of describing a magical transit system. It functions identically to a teleport circle, just a bit slower.

D&D had robots before the warforged showed up. You have heard of golems, right?

[Saph]

I prefer FR. It gives you the space to get to high levels, and I like the feeling that it's possible for my character to reach levels 15-20 if I play long enough. In Eberron I can't hit level 12 without being the Saviour/Oppressor of the World pretty much by default, simply because me and my party are the most powerful things out there. Y'know, sometimes I just want to go have fun with my new spells without having to save the continent on a regular basis.

[Uin]

I prefer FR. It gives you the space to get to high levels, and I like the feeling that it's possible for my character to reach levels 15-20 if I play long enough. In Eberron I can't hit level 12 without being the Saviour/Oppressor of the World pretty much by default, simply because me and my party are the most powerful things out there. Y'know, sometimes I just want to go have fun with my new spells without having to save the continent on a regular basis.

I'm having mine move to other continents and tackle planar threats. For example, there is a city in Argonessen (sp?) where only children have less than 10 levels. Invasions from Xoriat and Dal Quor work well too. Demon Rajahs have divine ranks, slap a 0 on a FCodex I/II Prince/Duke and go to town. Still lots of fun saving continents. :)

Back on Khorvaire the Aurum and the Twelve are barely stated out, you could make them powerful behind the scenes string pullers.

[Saph]

I'm having mine move to other continents and tackle planar threats. For example, there is a city in Argonessen (sp?) where only children have less than 10 levels.

I guess that's probably the best solution. It raises questions of its own, though; if it's possible for the PCs to go from the low-level areas to the high-level areas, what's stopping the NPCs from coming from the high-level areas to the low-level areas? If everyone in the aforementioned city has 10+ levels, some random guy and his friends could just wander over and take over the continent.

[AslanCross]

I guess that's probably the best solution. It raises questions of its own, though; if it's possible for the PCs to go from the low-level areas to the high-level areas, what's stopping the NPCs from coming from the high-level areas to the low-level areas? If everyone in the aforementioned city has 10+ levels, some random guy and his friends could just wander over and take over the continent.

Dragons of Eberron, the book that details Argonnessen, talks about why the dragons don't send their high-level pals to solve all the world's problems or solve them themselves.

1. Dragons don't care enough about the problems of other races to endanger themselves.
2. They will only react to things that threaten them presently and directly.
3. Anything that is threatening enough to threaten the dragons will be met with swift apocalyptic force (case in point: Xen'Drik).
4. Even if there are things that threaten the dragons directly but not presently (say, the Lords of Dust), the dragons are not willing to raise an open conflict immediately because it might backfire.

In other words, they are an extremely unreliable Deus ex Machina whose intervention you do not want. I used these reasons to good effect in motivating my PCs in Red Hand of Doom.

[Saph]

The question isn't "why doesn't group X solve the world's problems?" That's easy to answer.

The question is "Given that groups X, Y, and Z are all more powerful than everything in the low-level area by several orders of magnitude, what's stopping one or two of them from wandering over to the low-level area and treating it like their playpen?"

That's much harder to answer, because you have to explain why EVERYONE from the higher-level areas is leaving the lower-level areas alone.

[Morty]

My point was more that not everyone finds those things silly. You stated your opinion very vociferously and as-if-fact, which is what I was responding to. I realize not everyone likes it. Do you realize that some people do?

Yes, I do. And I provided an opposite point of view, as per OP's request. To say "They're silly and ruin immersion" isn't any different than to say "they're cool and awesome". Or to say "FR is boring", for that matter.
@V My point exactly.

[Samb]

Eberron all the way. FR is just....... Boring in comparasion, honestly I think FR was picked up by WoTC just because of it's novel series (everyone loves Drizzit right?) rather it's creativity (which was limited since it didn't want to offend old fans).

Let me count the ways Eberron rocks:
1) New cool races: Warforged are not 'robots' they are constructs, if you insist on giving them a derogatory name then it just shows your bias. Changlings are just a RP's wetdream.
2) Psionics: no need to get web enchancements to see how psionics fit into Eberron, the civil war of the Quori and the downfall of the giants' empire make it clear that psioncs is a ln intergeral part of this world.
3) Artifcers: these guys are my favorite tier one class. Do anything or make an item to do what you can't do.
4) Dragonmark house: something about them reminds me of Dune. Which is like totally awesome.
5) Action points: it does what it's supposed to do, add pulp excitement to the setting and emphasis the PCs as the main characters of the world.
6) murky alignmet: detect evil is a wasted spell slot now. Ever what to pit your PCs against a gold dragon? How about a planetar? Now you can. No need to limit yourself on the basis of alignment anymore.
7) always something to do: Khorvaire is great, but there are 3 other continents to romp about all offering different challage setting. Xen'dirk is one big dungeon crawl. Sarlona is a land ruled by dream manpulation and mind control (as cool as it sounds). If that fails there is always "the Prophecy" which is some vague excuse for DMs to throw elder dragon wyrms at you.


Short version: FR is great if you like boring ummmm I mean traditional games. If you like to kick ass, Eberron is the way to go.

[DiscipleofBob]

To the people who keep saying Eberron's strongest NPC's are about level 12 or so...

Clearly you have not met the Daelkyr... or Vol... or Mordain the Fleshweaver...

Or been to Argonnesen (sp?) where the average NPC merchant is level 16.

[Samb]

To the people who keep saying Eberron's strongest NPC's are about level 12 or so...

Clearly you have not met the Daelkyr... or Vol... or Mordain the Fleshweaver...

Or been to Argonnesen (sp?) where the average NPC merchant is level 16.

It's a case of "did not do the research" that makes people say Eberron is lower level only.

If you bother reading the material you would there are plenty of NPCs and monsters that are over level/CR 15. The problem is that all the adventure modules are for under level 10. Eyes of the lich queen goes from level 5-10 and as far I know is the highest it goes.
So for a DM it's more work. You have research (like any good DM) the setting and make a neat adventure around one of the "prime" evils. But for a player, Eberron all you'll ever need from a campaign setting.

Planescape had a NPC that was level 40 but all it's preconstructed modules were under level 12. I wonder why it never got the same "low level" rep that Eberron has? Maybe because can Share beers with a balor on any given day there?

[AslanCross]

The question isn't "why doesn't group X solve the world's problems?" That's easy to answer.

The question is "Given that groups X, Y, and Z are all more powerful than everything in the low-level area by several orders of magnitude, what's stopping one or two of them from wandering over to the low-level area and treating it like their playpen?"

That's much harder to answer, because you have to explain why EVERYONE from the higher-level areas is leaving the lower-level areas alone.

You have a point there. Just so that I'm sure I understand your point perfectly, let me try to reiterate what you said with a concrete example:

The Lords of Dust are typically Rakshasa lords with class levels, and according to MM3's adaptation notes for Eberron, many of them are Ak'Chazars, which are even stronger than the regular CR 10 Rakshasa. There are lots of them, and the strongest of them are epic. (According to Dragon 337, at least one of them is an Archmage/Loremaster, which makes him particularly terrifying.)

Given the unlimited shapeshifting powers and magical abilities of the Lords of Dust, why aren't they running the place? Easy enough to assassinate members of the Brelish parliament and take their place. Heck, maybe even Boranel himself could be replaced---the Rakshasas could easily infiltrate his Dark Lanterns.

Is this what you were saying?

If so, here's my off-the-cuff answer: Maybe they already are, and the PCs haven't discovered this yet. While this answer has its own problems, it makes for some good, high-level intrigue adventure without even having to leave Khorvaire.

More setting-oriented answer: The Lords of Dust have one endgame in mind: Bring back the Rajahs. They're not concerned so much with making life difficult for the Silver Flame or the citizens of Aundair or even killing the PCs---the Lords of Dust might even help the PCs off some Vol cultists if they believe it furthers their goal.

The Lords of Dust also are not a very cohesive unit. For the most part, each of them is loyal only to their respective Rajah, so one could say that even though Lord of Dust Indrajita is working for the return of his Rajah Ravana, he does not necessarily have to cooperate with Lord of Dust Ashwatthama in his own quest to bring back Rajah Yad-Raghesh---unless it serves his own needs directly.

While they have all the abilities required to basically run an Illuminati/Majestic 12 setup, the Lords of Dust aren't here to do that--they want their dread masters back, and while they aren't anywhere close to that goal thanks to the efforts of the dragons and couatls, given the right push the DM can teeter the balance of powers in their favor.

With the other power brokers it's a bit more difficult---I'm not sure what keeps the Inspired and their Quori masters (some of which are downright scary CR 20 Kalaraq Quori) from cracking down on Khorvaire, though I'd think the Dreaming Dark are pretty happy with their The Giver setup in Riedra that they wouldn't bother with having to bring their religion to Khorvaire.

For the most part it might be that the epic power brokers are in a stalemate, and that their moves might provoke conflicts they're not willing to fight at the moment---the answer is pretty much the flip side to why the dragons don't solve the world's problems.

[FoE]

It's important to remember that a lot of these Chessmasters are being opposed by other Chessmasters.

[Yora]

Planescape had a NPC that was level 40 but all it's preconstructed modules were under level 12. I wonder why it never got the same "low level" rep that Eberron has? Maybe because can Share beers with a balor on any given day there?
Published adventures generally rarely go much bejond these levels, because apparently only few groups play at such high levels. There's a much larger number of such people active in internet forums, but they are not a good approximation of the complete customer base. And you don't want to make 20th level adventures that are played by 1000 groups, if you can also have 5th level adventures that would be played by 10.000 groups.

[evil-frosty]

Ok i am leaning towards Ebberon because a lot of the problems people are bringing up can be rewritten and changed and i dont mind the work. So this leads me to my next question what books beyond the Ebberon Campaign Setting should i buy?

[Yora]

I like Races of Eberron, because I'm a fluff fan and usually don't care at all for splatbook Prestige Classes and feats. Faiths of Eberron is similar.

[Talya]

Has anyone mentioned airships yet?

Airships!


Both settings have airships.




1) New cool races: Warforged are not 'robots' they are constructs, if you insist on giving them a derogatory name then it just shows your bias. Changlings are just a RP's wetdream.

Changelings are pretty cool, I admit. Warforged I can't stand.



2) Psionics: no need to get web enchancements to see how psionics fit into Eberron, the civil war of the Quori and the downfall of the giants' empire make it clear that psioncs is a ln intergeral part of this world.
3) Artifcers: these guys are my favorite tier one class. Do anything or make an item to do what you can't do.


I find reasons to disallow psionics in any 3.5 game, I really don't like them at all. I'd do the same in Eberron.
Artificers are ... silly. I hate magic item reliance as it is...building an entire class designed around making them is awful.


4) Dragonmark house: something about them reminds me of Dune. Which is like totally awesome.

Those are actually pretty cool.


5) Action points: it does what it's supposed to do, add pulp excitement to the setting and emphasis the PCs as the main characters of the world.

Sometimes I like them, sometimes I don't. I prefer the concept in SW Saga edition, though. It somehow fits stylisticly better in star wars than in high fantasy.


6) murky alignmet: detect evil is a wasted spell slot now. Ever what to pit your PCs against a gold dragon? How about a planetar? Now you can. No need to limit yourself on the basis of alignment anymore.

I really dislike this. I like my campaigns to make heavy use of the alignment system, both mechanically and from a plot perspective. Also, the gods/cosmology of Faerun is awesome. Having active, detailed gods presents far more story potential than distant gods who may not even exist.


7) always something to do: Khorvaire is great, but there are 3 other continents to romp about all offering different challage setting. Xen'dirk is one big dungeon crawl. Sarlona is a land ruled by dream manpulation and mind control (as cool as it sounds). If that fails there is always "the Prophecy" which is some vague excuse for DMs to throw elder dragon wyrms at you.

Eberron is actually inferior in this respect. Faerun alone has more published world content than all of Eberron, but Faerun is only one of four detailed continents in the world of Abeir-Toril (Faerun, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Maztica), and several other continents that intentionally haven't been fleshed out for the express purpose of giving the players some unexplored frontier to work with.

[AslanCross]

The other books are by no means necessary, but I find the following to be quite helpful:


1. Explorer's Handbook details the Lightning Rail, airships, and other means of conveyance, as well as containing the Windwright Captain PrC and some cool magic items.

2. Magic of Eberron has some good options all around. Faiths of Eberron also has some decent options, but avoid the Planar Shepherd. It's broken beyond belief.

3. Five Nations is especially useful if you plan on staying on Khorvaire and dealing with the five human nations in your campaign. It has a couple of cool PrCs as well: Dark Lantern and Silver Flame Pyromancer.

4. Sharn: City of Towers is an extremely detailed book about the biggest city in the world and all its intricacies. Sharn is so big that you could have an entire campaign without ever leaving it.

5. Dragons of Eberron is very helpful no matter which continent you plan to have your adventures on as long as you plan to have dragons, but IMO it's most useful for high to epic adventures on Argonnessen.

6. While Races of Eberron is more of a book for using Eberron races OUTSIDE of Eberron, it has some pretty good racial substitution levels. Changeling Rogue's 10+Int Mod skill points/level? YES PLEASE.

Avoid: Player's Guide to Eberron. It's almost entirely fluff.

[Masaioh]

I don't know much about Eberron, but some of the things I read here make me want to avoid it in favor of Faerun.

Many of you mention that Eberron has few high-level NPCs whereas Faerun has Elminster, Szass Tam, and at least 10-20 more epic NPCs. To me, the latter just makes sense unless you are running a campaign that is chronologically taking place at the beginning of the world. The PCs should rarely if ever be the stongest people in the setting unless they are some of the first adventurers ever.

Also, the gods and alignment. Gods have played a large part in most of my campaigns, so having a game where they do almost nothing would feel weird. Alignment, iirc, is strict and objective by definition. Good, evil, law and chaos are tangible forces in DnD, aren't they? Killing is an evil act except under very specific circumstances, for example.

Another thing is the 'technology' of Eberron. Call me close-minded, but I'm used to the high-fantasy settings and a so-called 'lightning train' seems like a ridiculous idea. It just wouldn't be DnD to me. Dinosaurs as mounts...it's an interesting idea. I'm curious about Warforged, and I haven't been able to find any material on them. Could someone please explain them in a little more detail? Also, I'm not really familiar with 'pulp'. What does that mean?

[AslanCross]

I don't know much about Eberron, but some of the things I read here make me want to avoid it in favor of Faerun.

Many of you mention that Eberron has few high-level NPCs whereas Faerun has Elminster, Szass Tam, and at least 10-20 more epic NPCs. To me, the latter just makes sense unless you are running a campaign that is chronologically taking place at the beginning of the world. The PCs should rarely if ever be the stongest people in the setting unless they are some of the first adventurers ever.

The lack of high-level NPCs is explained as such: Humans did not come onto the scene until fairly late in the setting's history. Elves are far more ancient, but they ended up becoming slaves of the giants (who were the first large-scale and epic civilization; they invented magic as it is known.) After the elves survived the fall of the Giant empire, they became insular and kept to themselves.

The other civilization that could have spawned epic characters is the goblinoid Dhakaani empire. They faced down the Daelkyr, abominations of madness from Eberron's equivalent of the Far Realm, and won. However, soon after the Daelkyr invasion, Dhakaan fell apart due to civil war. The epic heroes would've killed each other.

Human society is approximately only 5000 years old in Eberron.




Also, the gods and alignment. Gods have played a large part in most of my campaigns, so having a game where they do almost nothing would feel weird. Alignment, iirc, is strict and objective by definition. Good, evil, law and chaos are tangible forces in DnD, aren't they? Killing is an evil act except under very specific circumstances, for example.

This is only the default flavor. As Faerun has played with its gods "disappearing" (Lolth, for example), it's easy enough to do the same with Eberron. What I like about Eberron, actually, is that the major deities are not racially-limited. The Sovereign Host has its Draconic equivalents, for one. And the Silver Flame is definitely a living and active force in Eberron, just that it so happens it's not a personal deity.

As for the moral grayness, frankly it's the part of Eberron that I like the least and I find that it's exaggerated by players far more than the setting actually describes it. Any setting has its share of checkered PCs and evil PCs. Eberron does not give players a license to do whatever jackassery they want and get away with it. If anything, doing something Chaotic Stupid in Eberron has more far-reaching consequences.

"Oh, you want to assassinate King Boranel? Okay, turns out he's NOT really Boranel, but a Rakshasa assassin who's replaced him. Yes, they got there ahead of you. Now the Lords of Dust know you know their plot. Good luck dealing with an angry cabal of shapeshifting magic-user fiends."

And frankly? The Lords of Dust are hardly a morally gray group. They might help you, but they want to bring back demon lords to take over the world. The Dragon Below cults? Cthulhu by any other name would sound as insane. The Daelkyr? Those guys play with your flesh and mind out of boredom. The Dreaming Dark? You'll find how creepily similar the society they run is to the Community in The Giver.

The moral grayness comes mostly from dealing with politics among humanoid nations, but there are real evil threats and real good people.



Another thing is the 'technology' of Eberron. Call me close-minded, but I'm used to the high-fantasy settings and a so-called 'lightning train' seems like a ridiculous idea. It just wouldn't be DnD to me. Dinosaurs as mounts...it's an interesting idea. I'm curious about Warforged, and I haven't been able to find any material on them. Could someone please explain them in a little more detail? Also, I'm not really familiar with 'pulp'. What does that mean?

Ok, can't explain that away as it's your own preference. Personally I do prefer "magic for the masses," and I like how it makes sense that these wizards actually realize that magic has more mundane applications than studying magic for its own sake and for blowing stuff up.

The warforged are a race of living constructs produced by House Cannith, one of the twelve Dragonmarked Houses that controls trade across Khorvaire. Cannith specializes in artifice, and the warforged were a logical result as the 100 years or so before the campaign setting's "present" date was war, war, and more war. (The Last War).

Warforged are sentient, albeit bad at social interaction due to them being made for war, and have many traits of living creatures (can drink potions, can think on their own, etc) while retaining construct traits (don't need food, air or sleep, don't tire out, etc). When the Last War ended, they were declared to be sentient creatures by the Treaty of Thronehold and were given rights. Of course, they're made for war, and many of them became adventurers. They're a playable construct race.

They also have an evil warforged supremacist leader out in the blasted wilderness of the Mournland, though not all warforged follow him.

[Kyeudo]

The reason that there are few high-level NPCs listed in Eberron is that even the elves don't live long enough to hit high levels by the end of their lives (which is why the Aerenal elves mastered necromancy and created the Undying, some of the cannonicall high level monsters in the setting). The world just came out of a war, with assassinations and war deaths galore, so alot of noted important people in the past died.

Eberron, however, has a higher percentage of mid-level NPCs than Faerun. There are entire orders of level 6-10 PrC members, like the Bone Knights or the Argent Fists. Almost everyone who served in the war is at least 2nd level or above.

[PinkysBrain]

About high level NPCs, adventurers are speciul in Eberron ... most NPCs just miss the random mutation to be able to gain levels in the same way PCs do, except for the antagonists of course. In every age a few heros (and villains) are born, that sort of thing.

[Masaioh]

Okay, please bear with me, the whole 'living constructs' thing sounds like an oxymoron to me. As I know the core books, if something is a constuct, it is not living. If it was living, it couldn't be a construct, and the ability to make a construct sentient is restricted to deities. Like the ones that make Inevitables. Does Eberron really diverge that much from SRD?

[awa]

their are sentient constructs in other books their just not viable pc races which is what make warforged special

[Salt_Crow]

It had been hinted that the first actual Warforged had been created by beings from the plane of Dreams (Quori) tens of thousands of years ago, even before the first modern warforged had been created. They'd serve as receptacles for the minds of the outsiders, iirc. So a few people believe that the modern Warforged follow the same principle, allowing it to imbibe/contain the essence/soul of the living which allows them to exhibit certain qualities of being alive (which is the theory that I go by).

It's just one of the examples of vagueness that runs throughout the entire setting really. One could just easily theorise that Warforgeds are made of more organic matters (as Ironwood body feat allows one to be) or any other explanation as they see fit for their own campaign.

If it was Faerun however, the concept and the history would likely be more rigidly defined, with the details of who's really responsible for the creation as such (an epic-level Green Star Adept, for example XD).

[Masaioh]

It had been hinted that the first actual Warforged had been created by beings from the plane of Dreams (Quori) tens of thousands of years ago, even before the first modern warforged had been created. They'd serve as receptacles for the minds of the outsiders, iirc. So a few people believe that the modern Warforged follow the same principle, allowing it to imbibe/contain the essence/soul of the living which allows them to exhibit certain qualities of being alive (which is the theory that I go by).

It's just one of the examples of vagueness that runs throughout the entire setting really. One could just easily theorise that Warforgeds are made of more organic matters (as Ironwood body feat allows one to be) or any other explanation as they see fit for their own campaign.

If it was Faerun however, the concept and the history would likely be more rigidly defined, with the details of who's really responsible for the creation as such (an epic-level Green Star Adept, for example XD).

See, that's precisely what I'm used to.

[Lorien077]

Honestly I would pick Ebberon. I personally have a hatred of most of the Faerun NPCs (stupid mechanics... stupid fluff) but with a lot of work it could be a lot of fun.

So if you want a fun morally ambiguous low level setting that requires a bit less work to run (more flexible) then pick Ebberon. (Also for the steampunk)

If you want a more straight up archetypal setting that may need a bit of 'love' (i.e. beating it with a stick) that works passably for all levels, then pick Faerun. (Also for the traditional fantasy)

Ebberon requires more effort to run well, unless you're playing a very silly game (which are awesome there) so keep that in mind if you want a serious game.

[Morty]

It's important to remember that a lot of these Chessmasters are being opposed by other Chessmasters.

It is. It's curious, then, that people so often forget it when talking about FR.

[PinkysBrain]

the ability to make a construct sentient is restricted to deities.
Half Golem, Maug, Zolar, Bogun, Homunculi ...

[Bayar]

Okay, please bear with me, the whole 'living constructs' thing sounds like an oxymoron to me. As I know the core books, if something is a constuct, it is not living. If it was living, it couldn't be a construct, and the ability to make a construct sentient is restricted to deities. Like the ones that make Inevitables. Does Eberron really diverge that much from SRD?

" I dare the gods of Eberron to descend from their planes of existance or where ever they pass their time, come to me and tell me that I took their job.

They wont because I am THAT AWESOME. "

That should be a quote of a certain Cannith baron in an Eberron fanfic.

[DiscipleofBob]

" I dare the gods of Eberron to descend from their planes of existance or where ever they pass their time, come to me and tell me that I took their job.

They wont because I am THAT AWESOME. "

That should be a quote of a certain Cannith baron in an Eberron fanfic.

Now, see, if the gods of Eberron actually CARED what those adorable little power-tripping humans said or did, here's a sample of what would happen.

The Devourer would pretty much destroy House Cannith with a series of tornadoes in the surprise round. The Fury and the Mockery would make the survivors freak out and start murdering each other. The Keeper would summon undead hordes while the Shadow made sure that all of their magic backfired, and anyone who took a move action would find themselves lost in the jungles of Xen'drik, courtesy of the Traveler.

The Sovereign Host, admittedly, would still probably just sit back and watch, and later give the Dark Six a sharp wagging of the finger.

Fortunately for you, the PC or Eberron citizen, the gods don't give a **** what you do because they are literally on a completely different level from whatever you could ever hope to accomplish with your tiny mortal brain. Go ahead, destroy the material plane, have fun with it, one or two of them may watch mildly amused.

What bugs me about some other D&D mythologies (notice I don't say Faerun because I've never played it) is that if you even slight a god's name, they'll take time out of whatever they're supposed to be doing, come down there, and bully smite you. I suppose this model is closer to greek or norse models of mythology, but I still found it silly.

[Dracomorph]

Mystra was always a sticking point for me with Forgotten Realms. I don't mind that their gods are sort of active, and it's kind of neat how petty they usually are. Keeps things interesting.
But having Arcane magic, the stuff that's supposed to run on universal rules and manipulating the nature thereof, fall under the direct control of the gods? It just bugs me.

The high-level NPCs thing is almost a toss-up; It's clear why most of them don't spend all their time disrupting continental drift and whatnot, but I do wonder how exactly all of the ludicrous, CR20+ apocalypse-wannabes get spotted for elimination before they finish destroying the world. I mean, every area of the setting I've seen, there's a unique, superpowered critter that either wants to rule the world or destroy it, and somehow they all fail. The Law of Averages needs to enter here somewhere. Yes, if one succeeded in destroying the world, the whole setting would need to be reworked, but maybe the less drastic ones should win once in a while.

[Meek]

Honestly, neither is quite right for me. This is why I'm writing my own setting.

I can play in both in D&D 4th Edition, however. Faerun Post-Spellplague had its history nuked so I actually feel comfortable developing a character in it. Not like I've missed out some crucial detail somewhere in the 3 previous editions of stuff, because the spellplague made it all irrelevant. Eberron I was always comfortable with, though some of the "industrial" elements bug me out a little bit. All these are my personal peeves, however.

[Jade_Tarem]

Living constructs were created because a construct base race had never been fully realized before.

That said, they couldn't go with regular constructs for mechanical reasons. Being able to play a full construct at level one would be overpowered - too many immunities (Enchantments, Necromancy, fatigue, poison, sneak attack, mind affecting stuff, non-magical necromancy, fear, etc.) not enough weaknesses. But they didn't want to make Warforged an LA+ race, so they made their own hybrid creature type called Living Construct, giving Warforged some of the less ridiculous immunities, and taking away the more powerful ones. Warforged can be hit with nonlethal damage, enchantments, etc. They're still immune to starvation and don't need to sleep, and they have light fortification instead of sneak attack immunity - that kind of thing. To compensate, warfoged get a few of the bonuses of the living - like being able to be healed by healing spells (at 1/2 the effectiveness, anyway).

For fluff's sake, the warforged were created by Merrix d'Cannith and his son on commission from someone as a counter to the nation of Karrnath spamming Animate Dead all the time - it was a logically sound choice: they can manufacture decent warriors, why can't we? So Merrix made the Soulforge - a big, bad artifact thing that can churn out warforged, which aren't really as good as constructs physically, but can think, making them the superior mooks. That went on for ~31 years, giving us some robot vs. zombie battles, and then he was ordered to shut 'em down when the war ended. He still makes them occasionally, though, and the Lord of Blades hijacked one of the Soulforges out in the Mournlands and runs it himself, although it's apparently damaged and doesn't work very quickly, or something. It's been a while.

[AslanCross]

Okay, please bear with me, the whole 'living constructs' thing sounds like an oxymoron to me. As I know the core books, if something is a constuct, it is not living. If it was living, it couldn't be a construct, and the ability to make a construct sentient is restricted to deities. Like the ones that make Inevitables. Does Eberron really diverge that much from SRD?

What about sentient undead? How different is the manipulation of energy so that one could make thinking undead from dead flesh and bone from the manipulation of energy to make thinking creatures from metal and wood?

In any case, the creation of more warforged was actually banned, although we never know if Merrix d'Cannith is still running some secret forges somewhere.

[Masaioh]

What about sentient undead? How different is the manipulation of energy so that one could make thinking undead from dead flesh and bone from the manipulation of energy to make thinking creatures from metal and wood?

In any case, the creation of more warforged was actually banned, although we never know if Merrix d'Cannith is still running some secret forges somewhere.

Undead implies that a creature was once alive, and reanimated from the dead. They are composed of organic matter. Not sure what Warforged are made of, but they sound like newly created life. If they are sentient and (nearly?) as intelligent as other living beings, wouldn't that be mostly restricted to gods, or epic divine casters? Golems, etc. are not fully sentient iirc and can only follow simple commands.

[Faleldir]

I can't explain the Constitution score, but Awaken Construct is a real spell.

[Bayar]

Undead implies that a creature was once alive, and reanimated from the dead. They are composed of organic matter. Not sure what Warforged are made of, but they sound like newly created life. If they are sentient and (nearly?) as intelligent as other living beings, wouldn't that be mostly restricted to gods, or epic divine casters? Golems, etc. are not fully sentient iirc and can only follow simple commands.

They are created in a creation forge. It is a powerful magical artifact that infuses them with the power of sentience or something. Seriously, you are trying your best to say "people cannot create sentient beings in a fantasy setting but can blow stuff up with their minds." .

Warforged:
http://www.juegosdeque.com.ar/informes/infoeberron/infoeberron01.jpg

[sonofzeal]

Warforged are, judging by the art at least, a composite of iron and wood. I've always thought their "Living Construct" nature was partially to reflect this sort of nature. They're not robots, but you could call them cyborgenic plants and not be far off, imo. At least, I've always said they bleed sap....

[Kyeudo]

Standard warforged are constructed from, amoung other things, adamantine, mithril, obsidian, darkwood, and livewood. Livewood is a wood that never dies, no matter how small of pieces you cut it into. You can plant a livewood shield and have it grow.

As has been noted, animating a construct is a feat easily accomplished before epic levels. Granting a construct sentience is also less than an epic feat. Given the already living nature of some materials in a warforged, the jump to living construct isn't too hard.


It is. It's curious, then, that people so often forget it when talking about FR.

Because in Faerun, it isn't explicitly stated to be true, where as in Eberron you can actually pin down who is working against various power blocks. The Dreaming Dark, for instance, is actively opposed by the Kalashtar. The various goverments are all poised at each others throats. The various Khyber cults are opposed by at least the Gatekeeper druids. Erandis D'Vol must contend against the Dragonmark Houses, the Chamber, and Church of the Silver Flame whenever she tries something big.

[Volkov]

Faerun is less, well weird. Then again it's the setting pretty much all D&D video games are put in. So it's more familiar to players than ebberon.

[Jade_Tarem]

A lot of the hate for Eberron, as far as I can tell, comes mostly from fear of trying something a bit different. There are legitimate problems with the setting, but most people's problem with it seems to be that it dares to take inspiration from sources other than Tolkein.

The thing you need to know about Eberron is that it's everything. If you don't believe me, go read the 1001 Things the Worst Party in Eberron is forbidden from doing. When you can come up with 1000+ things to make fun of in a campaign setting, you know it's pretty diverse. For example, the list makes fun of Eberron by comparing various aspects of it to the following:

Star Wars
Indiana Jones
Star Trek
Marvel Comics
DC Comics
Several real life cultural/national/etc. groups
Voltron
Slayers
Call of Cthulu
Baldur's Gate
Braveheart
Sherlock Holmes
Trigun
Star Fox
Outlaw Star
Disney Movies
Full Metal Alchemist
Firefly
Faerun
And about a zillion other things. For the most part, it's funny 'cause it's true.

Like someone posted previously, I also was first introduced to Faerun via Baldur's Gate, and I like that setting, but I still prefer Eberron.

[evil-frosty]

And i just realized i have been spelling Eberron wrong. I am rather embarrassed.:smallredface:

[PinkysBrain]

Golems, etc. are not fully sentient iirc and can only follow simple commands.
Homunculi on the other hand are sentient ... also core.

[seedjar]

Undead implies that a creature was once alive, and reanimated from the dead. They are composed of organic matter. Not sure what Warforged are made of, but they sound like newly created life. If they are sentient and (nearly?) as intelligent as other living beings, wouldn't that be mostly restricted to gods, or epic divine casters? Golems, etc. are not fully sentient iirc and can only follow simple commands.

I think there are some sentient golems (Shadesteel?) but I'm too lazy to check.
Like most metaphysical questions raised in a D&D game, Eberron is more or less silent on how "alive" a Living Construct is. Do they have souls? Maybe, but if they do, they don't go to the same place most humanoid souls go when they die. Are they intelligent? Close enough to pass a Turing test, but again, the books are vague. I think investigating such vagaries in-game is a great alternative to your typical BBEG-driven plot.
I don't see why their creation would necessarily be a deities-only party. I've never seen/heard of a D20 rule that says this or that about where sentient beings can come from. On the other hand, awakening isn't even close to an epic-level spell. Besides, humans can make more humans quite easily. (And in a manner that's not exactly evocative of deific grace.) Making a whole new race is a slightly flashier trick, but it did take artifacts from a lost civilization of outsiders to do it. (Which, in Eberron, is about as close as you're bound to get to a god - at least in terms of the things you see in my Eberron games.)
As for there being no high-level NPCs in Eberron; that's just flat out wrong. For some reason, this notion really bugs me. There aren't any epic-level adventurers alive, so far as the people of Khorvaire are aware. Khorvaire, while the focus of the setting, is honestly kind of backwoodsy compared to what's cooking on the other continents. Also, that little bit of informal census probably doesn't even try to count creatures on other planes.
There are quite a few societies (in the post-war era or historically) where epic-level knowledge was likely obtained. The giants, the dragons, the couatls, the numerous human states of ancient Sarlona (Ohr-Kahluun comes to mind,) the genies off in Lamannia, the angels and devils and demons from various other planes, the rakshasas, the goblinoids, and all sorts aberrations. Check out the timeline in the Eberron Campaign Setting and you'll see that Eberron's entire history is a loop of booms and busts. It just so happens that, at the time of the setting, Khorvaire is at the tail end of a pretty harsh bust. If you rewound the timeline one or two hundred years, you could justify epic characters coming from pretty much any of the power player groups (even your own made-up faction, if you took a few minutes to come up with how it relates to some of the established ones.) You could likewise say that someone like Reidra or one of the Khorvairan states started up aggressions and hatched another world war, which would easily open the door for high-level NPCs.
~Joe

PS - Footnote on gods - I believe the way the books word it is that deities haven't (and perhaps can't) been proven to exist in Eberron. Again, this is mostly from the perspective of Khorvairans. But that isn't to say that some people aren't really really convinced that there are gods, or that the things that are worshipped as gods aren't real. Tiamat, for example, is very real in Eberron; she just doesn't have divine levels, and if she does grant spells to some, it's probably in a more mundane, explicable way than, "That's what happens because she's a god."
My favorite explanation for the situation of gods in Eberron is this: as soon as something in Eberron gains a divine rank, it transcends Eberron and its satellite planes. The divine being may still be able to influence things within Eberron, but their godly touch is incomprehensible to mortals and no one would understand (or notice) if they tried to communicate. What gods do to Eberron is entirely beyond the scope, detection and business of mortals. If one of my groups struck upon a reasonable justification for gaining a divine rank in an Eberron game, that's when I'd close the book and say, "We're done for tonight guys; next week, everybody wakes up in Faerun."
To borrow from a truly excellent game:
http://forums.mcleodgaming.com/download/file.php?avatar=5422_1249259259.jpg
You cannot comprehend the true nature of Giygas' attack!

[wadledo]

I myself am somewhat partial to Eberron, if only because the setting is at the same time somewhat mutable (you want the Last war to still be going on but most of the fluff still intact? Go for it.) and filled with really, really interesting and detailed fluff (a races of series that actually has good classes/variants/feats(though less so)/items/spells).

This is also the reason I don't like it.

If you really want to do something with a town or anything else that isn't one of the ideas they already have, you tend to hit a wall of overbearing fluff and doom (Oh, you want this town to be overrun by undead? Well, the country next door takes this as an attack, and begins pulling resources from a few vassal states, which collapse under the strain. Congratulations. Your zombie themed game just killed a country.).

Which is why I like Forgotten Realms.

The 'big' things (deities, uber-NPC's, histories, etc.) are roughly set in stone, unless you specifically don't want them to be.

Then the 'minor' things (individual countries, towns, and other such things) are more fluid and you can basically do anything with them, no trouble.

Plus, 2 things:
Realmspace (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Realmspace) and http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/84366.jpg

[Shadowbane]

Here are some posters I feel demonstrate my feelings for Eberron and why it is better than Forgotten Realms succinctly and in a fairly cool way.

Actually, I agree with the vast majority of people who said they liked Eberron over FR. Their opinion is mine, and vice versa, I hope.

http://tinyurl.com/nygu3m

http://tinyurl.com/n2x36t

http://tinyurl.com/lxn892

http://tinyurl.com/no3tgx

[Mr.Bookworm]

*grabs soapbox*


Many of you mention that Eberron has few high-level NPCs whereas Faerun has Elminster, Szass Tam, and at least 10-20 more epic NPCs. To me, the latter just makes sense unless you are running a campaign that is chronologically taking place at the beginning of the world. The PCs should rarely if ever be the stongest people in the setting unless they are some of the first adventurers ever.

However you have to remember the Last War, which is essentially a world war that went on for 102 years, and only just ended. Millions of people died, and you can probably imagine where the high-level people were at during the wars. And it's not like there aren't any high level people. There are quite a few 10th-12th level people, a metric ton in the 4th-8th range (again, because of the Last War), and not an insignificant amount of high-levels, like Vol, the Fleshweaver, etc., etc., and that's not getting into the rather large amounts of high-level monsters like the rakshasas, dragons, deathless, and daelkyrs.

Even when the PCs are high-level, there are still as mentioned plenty of individuals and monsters that are a threat, and even more organizations that can do anything from making your life very difficult to swatting you like a bug. For example, even if the Dragonmark Houses, which are basically merchants, can't outright kill you (and they probably can, or find someone else to do it for them), they could still, say, cripple your economic standing, haul your arse to court, and start a smear campaign that would make you look like you're the half-witted incarnation of the Fury born out of the LoBster and a living spell hooking up (see BoEF pg. 53 for mechanics).


Also, the gods and alignment. Gods have played a large part in most of my campaigns, so having a game where they do almost nothing would feel weird. Alignment, iirc, is strict and objective by definition. Good, evil, law and chaos are tangible forces in DnD, aren't they? Killing is an evil act except under very specific circumstances, for example.

Yeah, the gods thing is definitely a matter of taste, though I like the hands-off approach of Eberron. And it's not like they don't have a big influence on the world through their worshippers.

The moral greyness of Eberron tends to get over-exaggerated. The "greyness" comes out of a couple of things.

First, default alignment is not set in stone. There are Good chromatic dragons, a group of Good orc druids, and so on.

Secondly, Clerics can still get spells from their Gods no matter what they do, leading to situations like in the Church of the Silver Flame, where one of the high clerics is Evil.

Thirdly, again relating to the above, organizations as a whole don't always stick by their alignment. As a whole, the CotSF is a force of justice and goodness. However, this hasn't stopped people like the aforementioned high cleric exploiting the system, or the organization as a whole doing things like launching genocidal crusades against lycanthropes. Then there's things like the Good leader of a overall Good nation seeking world domination, while the Evil vampire leader of a Germany analogue is seeking world peace.

Other than that, alignment generally works the same as in the rest of D&D. There are, without a doubt, groups that are Eeeeeevil (Lords of the Dust, the Inspired, Daelkyr, the Cults of the Dragon Below, Robo-Hitler, etc.), and a few others that are basically Good (the Sovereign Host, the Church of the Silver Flame, the Gatekeepers, the Wardens). I mean, hell, the creation mythos practically has dragons representing the physical concepts Good (Siberys), Neutrality (Eberron), and Evil (Khyber).


Another thing is the 'technology' of Eberron. Call me close-minded, but I'm used to the high-fantasy settings and a so-called 'lightning train' seems like a ridiculous idea. It just wouldn't be DnD to me. Dinosaurs as mounts...it's an interesting idea.

Again, it's a matter of taste, though I would argue it's the fully natural representation of what would happen with magic in the D&D form.

As for the Halflings on dinosaurs, I have no idea where that came from, but it's cool and internally consistent, so who cares?

EDIT: And is King Kaius being a vampire actually a spoiler or not?

EDIT2: And if you can't tell my bias after this, yes, I greatly prefer Eberron, though FR does have it's points.

[seedjar]

There are, without a doubt, groups that are Eeeeeevil (Lords of the Dust, the Inspired, Daelkyr, the Cults of the Dragon Below, Robo-Hitler, etc.)

coughDreamingDarkcough
The fun part about the Inspired is that most of them are good-natured zealots that have no idea they're being manipulated by extraplanar aberrations. (I've always been curious what kind of zaniness might come from getting the Inspired to start being skeptical of the Quori and refuse possession.)
When you run into the real baddies, you're probably already screwed.
~Joe

[Samb]

Ok i am leaning towards Ebberon because a lot of the problems people are bringing up can be rewritten and changed and i dont mind the work. So this leads me to my next question what books beyond the Ebberon Campaign Setting should i buy?

Ah you have made the right choice! Here are the books I found most useful as a player:
Magic of Eberron: new spells, powers and infusions, and niffty new PrCs. All worth a look. The introduction the psionic artificer (a true powerhouse) and psiforge sealed the deal for me.
Races of Eberron: great fluff and ways to roleplay each race. The section on the Changlings and Kalashtar were personal favorites.
Dragonmarked: I try to play a House member whenever possible (ie any race that can bear a dragonmark) just so I can say "xxxxx of House yyyyy" it just reeks of coolness and house politics is just a great RP opportunity and great for calling in favors (depends on GM). It also has a new flaw which is perfect if you want nothing to do with you House (which is tough to do when they dominate everything). It also provides a much more indepth look at the history and current affairs of each House, how they conduct bussiness and stats on the main players in each House.
Five nations and Sharn are vital if you are having a campaign besed heavily on Khorvaire, which is very likily since most of the material (including the ECS) is based in Khorvaire.
As a DM the above books are good but add in dragons of eberron, secrets of Xen'dirk and Sarlona should only be seen by a DM IMO unless the PCs are naive to the land. The adentures are perfect to get a feel of the setting and the forgotten forge is another module is a nice short adventure to get started.

Hope that helps, and have a blast.

[Morty]

Because in Faerun, it isn't explicitly stated to be true.

Yes, it is. FRCS, page 84.

[Kyeudo]

Yes, it is. FRCS, page 84.

Alright, then give me a list of all major organizations who are preventing Szass Tam from taking over the world.

Yes, you have a little blurb that amounts to "The big characters in the setting are lazy bums terrified of duking it out with anyone with real power and don't really care enough to change the world anyway because some people wouldn't like their ideas." That's handwaving.

In Eberron, I can pick out a goverment and list its enemies and allies. Karnnath is enemies with Aundair, the Church of the Silver Flame, Thrane (although that's practically the same as the Church of the Silver Flame), Valenar, the Order of the Emerald Claw, and the upper echelons of goverment want to minimize the Blood of Vol. Karrnath is on good terms with Breland and the Mror Holds and has strong ties to two of the Dragonmark Houses, House Deneith and House Jorasco IIRC. Can you do the same for every nation in the Forgotton Realms?

[Morty]

Alright, then give me a list of all major organizations who are preventing Szass Tam from taking over the world.

Yes, you have a little blurb that amounts to "The big characters in the setting are lazy bums terrified of duking it out with anyone with real power and don't really care enough to change the world anyway because some people wouldn't like their ideas." That's handwaving.


Szass Tam is prevented from taking over the world by Hathran and the entire Rashemen, as well as Aglarond and therefore Simbul, to name his immediate neighbors who actually have defeated Thay before. It's only handwaving if you want to look at this way.

[Samb]

Morty it doesn't matter who opposes the big names in FR, the fact is that FR lives off the brand recognition of it's high level NPC rather than it's coolness. You could argue all you want about high level NPC against other NPCs all you want but all that does is prove that FR lives off them.

I don't even know why you think that by establishing that NPCs are working against NPCs will somehow make me say: "I prefer FR over Eberron now". It is a completly moot point. I don't like Eberron for what the NPCs, I love Eberron for the tone, the mechanics, the plethora of plots. As a DM and a player Eberron is just plain better IMO.

My main campaign is in FR, and it is fun, but we only use it because the rest of the group is familiar with it. I think if you tried it you would find it enjoyable, I really get the feeling that many people are just afraid to try something funky. FR is nice and safe. It's what many of us grew up on, and it is great to introduce new players to RPGs but for old school players looking for a campaign filled with excitement, a new sense of wonderment, then look no further than Eberron.

[Morty]

Morty it doesn't matter who opposes the big names in FR, the fact is that FR lives off the brand recognition of it's high level NPC rather than it's coolness. You could argue all you want about high level NPC against other NPCs all you want but all that does is prove that FR lives off them.

No, FR doesn't "live off" high level NPCs. It lives off being a rich, huge setting full of possibilities that sticks close to what people expect from heroic fantasy.


I don't even know why you think that by establishing that NPCs are working against NPCs will somehow make me say: "I prefer FR over Eberron now".

It's a good thing I wasn't thinking it then, and in fact I'm rather baffled as to why you'd have that impression. I was arguing against the argument that Faerun NPCs do less than they should.
And in the same vein, do you really think repeating "Eberron is exciting" over and over again will make me or the others look past its flaws?
I won't even touch the "you're just afraid to try it" argument.

[Bayar]

No, FR doesn't "live off" high level NPCs. It lives off being a rich, huge setting full of possibilities that sticks close to what people expect from heroic fantasy.

Drizzt clones ?

[wadledo]

Drizzt clones ?

In response to this, I say:
Warforged are megaman rip-offs.

[Samb]

You just seem to pursue the whole NPC vs NPC thing. I figured that you thought it was a valid debating point is all.

Eberron was built off pulp excitement. It plainly states this and IMO it succeeded in it's goal. FR does have a rich backstory/novel lines, but in the end it is just DnD in a different garb. It is very traditional, and being traditional is part of it's appeal with consumers.

It isn't the most creative setting, and it was not picked up for being groundbreaking. Dark Sun and Planescape take that crown. The reason FR was continued in 3rd ed. was purely because it had the Uber NPCs.

[Samb]

You do know that Eberron was picked out of over 10,000 entries right? It has a proven track record with fans and that is without any big names like Drizzt or Elminster.

[Morty]

You just seem to pursue the whole NPC vs NPC thing. I figured that you thought it was a valid debating point is all.

If someone says "I don't like FR because it has a lot of high-level NPCs" it can't be argued, because it's a personal preference. However, I will argue that there's a balance of powers in FR, because to say that there isn't is IMO plainly not true.


FR does have a rich backstory/novel lines, but in the end it is just DnD in a different garb. It is very traditional, and being traditional is part of it's appeal with consumers.

Right. And what's so difficult to accept in here?


The reason FR was continued in 3rd ed. was purely because it had the Uber NPCs.

Says who, exactly?



You do know that Eberron was picked out of over 10,000 entries right? It has a proven track record with fans and that is without any big names like Drizzt or Elminster.

This doesn't mean everyone has to like it. I'm perfectly aware Eberron is liked and recognized; but I don't see how this should affect my opinion about it.

[dragonfan6490]

I would have to say that I prefer FR over Eberon, but my true preference, and the preference of many here I'm sure is our own settings.

[kpenguin]

Really, it seems to come down to personal preference more than anything else. Morty obviously prefers Forgotten Realms and presumably other settings that don't have magic trains and dinosaur-riding halflings.

[Samb]

"We couldn't get rid of Forgotten Realms," Slaviscek chuckled. "It's the Cadillac of Dungeons & Dragons." If anything, Slaviscek understates the case. Forgotten Realms supports a huge chunk of the Dungeons & Dragons fan base and is far and away the most popular fantasy world TSR has ever created. More than official adventure modules, though, the Forgotten Realms is the linchpin of the book publishing division that was one of the crown jewels of the TSR acquisition. Kill the Forgotten Realms and Drizz't do'Urden goes with it. Drizz't was the creation of author R.A. Salvatore, whose books about the renegade dark elf regularly hit the New York Times bestseller list......Therefore, instead of eliminating the Realms, the new strategy would be to subsume the Forgotten Realms brand into the newly revitalized Dungeons & Dragons brand. Now the Forgotten Realms would be an example of the rich campaign worlds that could be created using the Dungeons & Dragons rules, not the "official" story of D&D.

It is also just good business sense. You have two products that are popular and advertise for eachother. The whole reason FR has a "deep and rich" history is because so many (bestselling) books were written on it.

You don't have to like pulp excitement, or the funky new world of Eberron, but you can't deny that it is popular because it is a well made campaign setting for the reasons I listed (emphasis on cool factor). Nor can you deny that the popularity of FR's novel line contributed to the setting's survival.

[Xanedan]

1 - Buy one campaign setting, convince someone else in your group to buy the other and run a couple one shot stories in both.

2 - Decide which you like better, play a campaign in that one. If things start to stagnate start a new campaign in the other.

3 - Listen to "Life and How to Live it" by R.E.M.

4 - Profit.

[Masaioh]

I would have to say that I prefer FR over Eberon, but my true preference, and the preference of many here I'm sure is our own settings.

This. I'd rather run my own setting than FR, because I don't know many of the characters exclusive to FR except a couple of gods. The Giygas reference that was posted above made me chuckle.

Also, Warforged being created by artifacts makes sense to me. But the question is, how common are these artifacts? From the sound of it, not very. This is one of the reasons I asked these questions about Eberron, because I don't know these little details and without them many facts can be distorted.

[Elfin]

It is also just good business sense. You have two products that are popular and advertise for eachother. The whole reason FR has a "deep and rich" history is because so many (bestselling) books were written on it.

While the novels definitely have something to do with the setting's popularity, they aren't the reason FR is deep and rich. They are, in fact, poorly written trash (at least from in brief experience). The reason FR appeals to so many is because it's a classic high-fantasy world, teeming with excitement and adventure. Perhaps it's not to your taste, but that's no reason to dismiss it as garbage.
When you say "it's D&D in another garb"...well, yes. So is Eberron. They're both D&D settings.
If you meant that FR is bland, then, as I said above, the reason so many people like it is because it's exactly what they expect from a fantasy RPG.


You don't have to like pulp excitement, or the funky new world of Eberron, but you can't deny that it is popular because it is a well made campaign setting for the reasons I listed (emphasis on cool factor).
No, I can't. I don't think anyone has denied that Eberron is an interesting, well-made setting that appeals to lots of players. In the same vein, you shouldn't dismiss FR just because it's not to your taste.


Nor can you deny that the popularity of FR's novel line contributed to the setting's survival.
They did, but that's not the same thing as saying that the novels are the only reason people like FR.

[Jade_Tarem]

But the question is, how common are these artifacts? From the sound of it, not very. This is one of the reasons I asked these questions about Eberron, because I don't know these little details and without them many facts can be distorted.

There are exactly two functioning creation forges: one in the bowels of Sharn, run by Merrix d'Cannith (think Lex Luthor, but with better business sense). The creation of new warforged is illegal, so Merrix only fires it up occasionally.

The other one is in the mournlands, and it isn't in very good shape. That one has been taken over by the Lord of Blades. But the LoB isn't quite as good at using it as Merrix, and as was mentioned a moment ago, this forge is damaged, so he can only produce slowly, and even then the warforged are sometimes flawed.

[Morty]

I'm amused by the "FR is popular because of the novels" argument, because I've only ever read one FR novel and didn't like it very much. And I had been playing in FR for a long time then. Which proves you can enjoy Forgotten Realms without them.


You don't have to like pulp excitement, or the funky new world of Eberron, but you can't deny that it is popular because it is a well made campaign setting for the reasons I listed (emphasis on cool factor). Nor can you deny that the popularity of FR's novel line contributed to the setting's survival.

Since I never denied it in the first place, you don't really have to ask. Expressing a negative opinion about something isn't the same as denying the reason it's successful. And of course, your request works both ways.

[Bayar]

Also, Warforged being created by artifacts makes sense to me. But the question is, how common are these artifacts? From the sound of it, not very. This is one of the reasons I asked these questions about Eberron, because I don't know these little details and without them many facts can be distorted.

Although someone already said it...

Creation forges are presumably all destroyed, since they are now illegal. But Merrix has one somewhere in Sharn (most likely) and he sometimes creates a warforged or two for ****s and giggles (or just to experiment new addons, patches, OS's), and the LoB also is rumored to have one, but his is mostly busted so he only gets rejects.

There are probably other in the Mournlands, but doubt that anyone would go there to find one.

[Samb]

I'm amused by the "FR is popular because of the novels" argument, because I've only ever read one FR novel and didn't like it very much. And I had been playing in FR for a long time then. Which proves you can enjoy Forgotten Realms without them.



Since I never denied it in the first place, you don't really have to ask. Expressing a negative opinion about something isn't the same as denying the reason it's successful. And of course, your request works both ways.

You asked me for a quote, which I provided since common business sense was not enough for you, and now you dismiss out in favor for your own opinion..... I have no clue if you really read the novels or not, but I can say that FR was brought into 3.0 thanks in large part for its novel line. This was common knowledge, whether you enjoyed the novels or not has little bearing why it was picked up while Planescape or Ravenloft was dropped.

You can go and like FR, but don't deny that creativity in NOT the main reason it is still around. Planescape won an Origins award and didn't get picked up because it wasn't near as lucrative. Eberron was picked from over 10,000 entries, it is popular from the ground up, without any novelization.

FR is really just more traditional DnD, the quote I provided basically said so. Eberron has a completely different tone with more or less the same rules, like any good setting should. When I hear "traditional" I think "boring". That's just me, but I know that FR was lucrative, and I know that was a huge factor in its longevity.

[Morty]

FR is really just more traditional DnD, the quote I provided basically said so. Eberron has a completely different tone with more or less the same rules, like any good setting should. When I hear "traditional" I think "boring". That's just me, but I know that FR was lucrative, and I know that was a huge factor in its longevity.

And you ask me not to dismiss Eberron entirely despite not liking it? A completely different tone is not required in a setting, because people want a detailed setting they don't have to come up with on their own that's still traditional. Yes, you think that traditional means boring, but it's not a rule. I was giving you the benefit of doubt up until now, but you're hypocritical here. What's so difficult in admitting that people like FR for its real qualities? Or that Eberron isn't objectively better than it?

[seedjar]

Also, Warforged being created by artifacts makes sense to me. But the question is, how common are these artifacts? From the sound of it, not very. This is one of the reasons I asked these questions about Eberron, because I don't know these little details and without them many facts can be distorted.

Extremely uncommon. They were built by a lost race during a war that actually broke the original configuration of the campaign world's planes. (Although, relative to other artifacts which are usually entirely unique, there were a fair number at one time in Eberron's history.) The ones that have survived that era are probably all buried in the ruins of Xen'drik, a magically un-navigable continent crawling with bloodthirsty drow and all sorts of dinosaurs. Even without monsters coming after you, the environmental hazards are nothing to sneeze at. Locating, excavating and transporting even part of a forge back to Khorvaire is a near-epic task; you could probably build a whole campaign around it. House Cannith and the other power groups interested in forges have invested serious amounts of time, money and manpower into retrieving and repairing them.
~Joe

PS - Also (and get your flamethrowers ready,) I really don't see Eberron as being too non-traditional so far as general high-fantasy tropes are concerned. Magically animated beings, magical transportation, and magical business aren't especially uncommon occurrences in the fantasy books I read as a kid. There are a whole lot of dynamics and goings-on in Eberron that seem flat-out mundane to me; the national politics, the zealous and xenophobic distant kingdom, the aberrations invading from other planes, the trade routes and mercantile economy, etc.
The biggest differences I notice are in the presentation - I think a more conservative team of editors could've easily written the ECS in a way that would strongly appeal to more traditionally-geared players, without removing any of Baker's "new" ideas. All that's required is a change in some of the language used to describe various things; present the dragonmarked houses as guilds rather than industries, flavor magewrights as some sort of underpowered discipline of wizard rather than magical factory workers, and don't blatantly suggest an atheistic interpretation of deific phenomena (seriously, they could've been just a little more ambiguous on that one and avoided a lot of "WTF?" reactions from orthodox players.) I think the ECS was written with such a countercultural tone because Wizards wanted to appeal to a different/broader market. (If you look at their promotional materials, it's all, "It's new! It's crazy! You won't believe it! - The awesomeness, that is.")
I'm pretty sure that, if I were to run an Eberron campaign without showing the books to my players, I could present it in such a way that they wouldn't notice they weren't in some generic fantasy land. It's all about what you choose to focus on.

[Samb]

And you ask me not to dismiss Eberron entirely despite not liking it? A completely different tone is not required in a setting, because people want a detailed setting they don't have to come up with on their own that's still traditional. Yes, you think that traditional means boring, but it's not a rule. I was giving you the benefit of doubt up until now, but you're hypocritical here. What's so difficult in admitting that people like FR for its real qualities? Or that Eberron isn't objectively better than it?

I just played a FR campaign yesterday. It was in the Stonelands of Cormyr. It has been going on for 10 months now and I enjoy it for the reasons you listed. But if it was in Eberron, I would not complain. Any campaign is enjoyable with the right people, just out of the box? I prefer Eberron.

My thoughts on a setting require more than just a different map and history. Tone should be the main thing separating setting, I honestly couldn't tell the difference between Greyhawk, Birthright, Dragonlance or FR. Change the map and few gods, make up a history...... the rest is just more of the same.

Eberron was selected from a bunch of contestants, that is a fact. It was chosen for its creativity. FR was is a classic setting that proved to profitable, it was selected to be THE core setting for 3.0 for a company trying to "cut the fat". This is not subjective, or my opinion, it is a fact. You may not like what that implies but the facts remain that FR was profitable and that is why it was selected as the new face of DnD.

[Morty]

Eberron was selected from a bunch of contestants, that is a fact. It was chosen for its creativity. FR was is a classic setting that proved to profitable, it was selected to be THE core setting for 3.0 for a company trying to "cut the fat". This is not subjective, or my opinion, it is a fact. You may not like what that implies but the facts remain that FR was profitable and that is why it was selected as the new face of DnD.

And why was it profitable? Because people were willing to play it. And since there are still people - a lot of them in fact - who'd rather play FR than Eberron, neither is inherently better no matter how hard you try to prove it. Facts are: some people like Eberron for its unorthodox elements. Others dislike it due to the same things. Many people who like classical settings like FR because it does traditional heroic fantasy well in their opinion. Many people like neither Eberron nor FR or like them both, for equally many reasons.
I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt again and assume you didn't mean "the core setting for 3.0" literally because if you did, it's simply false.

[Thane of Fife]

FR was is a classic setting that proved to profitable, it was selected to be THE core setting for 3.0 for a company trying to "cut the fat". This is not subjective, or my opinion, it is a fact.

Actually, Greyhawk is the core setting for 3.0 and 3.5. So, no, it is not a fact.

[Samb]

Actually, Greyhawk is the core setting for 3.0 and 3.5. So, no, it is not a fact.

I must be using a different definition of core. Default setting is Greyhawk. Default=/=core. Core meaning a campaign setting was made for it. So dragonlance counts as well, despite it being inferior. Take another guess as to why that picked up as well.

[Samb]

And why was it profitable?
I thought I answered this. Videogame rights, best selling novels, decent game setting all combine to be money making machine. It's not an insult, I don't know why you take it as such.

I don't think FR is the most creative setting, I said why I thought so and the settings' pedigree did have an impact. When you compare it to Planescape which won rewards, or Eberron who beat 10,000 others its hard to hold up the opinion that FR is as cool as you try to make it. Naturally you are feel to disagree I simply point out why I think FR was chosen for reasons other than creativity.

Like I said before, my main campaign is an FR campaign, I find it to be fun because it is DnD and I have a good group. Eberron is just better for my tastes.

[Morty]

Like I said before, my main campaign is an FR campaign, I find it to be fun because it is DnD and I have a good group. Eberron is just better for my tastes.

Right. But why won't you admit that for many other people, it's Forgotten Realms that's better? Because it is and I really don't know how did this discussion get so long if it all boils down to personal preference.

[Thane of Fife]

I must be using a different definition of core. Default setting is Greyhawk. Default=/=core. Core meaning a campaign setting was made for it. So dragonlance counts as well, despite it being inferior. Take another guess as to why that picked up as well.

Then why did you say that it was "THE core setting for 3.0"? 'The' implies only, and 'THE' implies that that only is a big deal.

[Kosjsjach]

Ok, this is just getting silly. :smallannoyed:

Morty. You believe FR is a more enjoyable setting, but concede that it is a matter of personal taste, yes? Good.

Samb. You believe Eberron to be a more enjoyable setting, but accept that it is a matter of personal taste, correct? Wonderful.

Faerun is classic. Eberron is innovative. Everyone in agreement, right?

I'm sorry, but from my perspective, it seems like you're both arguing over nothing at this point. You've both made your points. Can't you let it go now? :smallfrown: :smallwink:

[Elfin]

Agreed, and very well said.

[AslanCross]

Besides, the OP was already asking for advice on which Eberron books to buy. @_@

[evil-frosty]

I found there argument interesting, pointless, but interesting. The only reason i ever had a liking towards FR were the books. Ironically they also ruined it for me once i started reading more of them.

Another question what are some of the more radical differences between the two settings? I learned to play in 2nd ed from my dad who started playing in the 70's so i am a fairly orthodox player, but open to new ideas.

[AslanCross]

1. Eberron's most radical difference is its widespread use of low-level magic technology. While both settings have airships, Faerun's are more like blimps. Eberron's are powered by bound elementals (usually fire or air).

The lightning rail system connects almost all of Khorvaire, although routes through the Mournland are currently inoperable.

2. The Dragonmarked houses control all major trades on Khorvaire:
Cannith (Human)---Artifice
Deneith (Human)---Mercenaries and law enforcement
Phiarlan (Elf)---Espionage and Entertainment
Thuranni (Elf)---Espionage and Crafting
Ghallanda (Halfling)---Inns and Taverns
Jorasco (Halfling)---Healing
Lyrandar (Half-Elf)---Air and Sea Transport (almost all airships are owned, subsidized, or deputized by House Lyrandar)
Orien (Human) ---Land transport (They own the Lightning Rail system, along with other, more mundane transport systems)
Medani (Half-Elf)---Investigation and Detection
Kundarak (Dwarf)---Banking and Moneylending
Sivis (Gnome)---Scribing and Communication (also has a league of lawyers)
Tharassk (Human and Half-Orc)---Tracking and Prospection
Vadalis (Human)---Animal husbandry, mundane and magical

Any "competition" is likely to get bought out or crushed economically by the Dragonmarked Houses. As such, there's a relatively strong feel of capitalism in Eberron. True, Faerun has the Zhentarim, but those guys are not universally-accepted and are often fought against.

Dragonmarks are magical "birthmarks" that manifest on individuals of the various races. Each dragonmarked house has a dragonmark associated with their business, and many people who manifest the dragonmarks work for the appropriate house---although not everyone in the house is dragonmarked (they could simply be really good at the house's trade) and not every dragonmarked person works for them.

3. Dragons: The world is said to have been born of three progenitor dragons: Siberys, the Dragon Above; Eberron, the Dragon Between, and Khyber, the Dragon Below.

The three great dragons fought. Siberys was killed; his remains orbit the planet as a bright ring of debris that periodically rains dragonshards (crystals imbued with special energy). Khyber was imprisoned in the depths of the planet and gave birth to the Rakshasas and the other fiends. Eberron merged with the planet to heal it. (They say her head is still visible in Argonnessen---a dragon head the size of a MOUNTAIN RANGE.)


The dragons have an actual nation (Argonnessen) and are not color-coded, though I know Faerun also has non-conventional alignments on some dragons, but they're extremely rare and likely to only deviate one or two steps; never heard of a CE silver dragon in Faerun.

The dragons spend most of their time and resources studying the Draconic prophecy, a deliberately vague set of utterances so vast that even the dragons can't study the entire thing throughout their lifetimes. The dragonmarks never appeared in the prophecy, which is why the dragons became so fascinated with them.

4. The Last War was an utterly devastating conflict across Khorvaire, and it shaped a lot of the five human nations' recent history.

5. Deities: Faerun has a LOT of gods who commonly walk among the people. Eberron has fewer gods, and as has been mentioned repeatedly, they have not shown themselves on Eberron for ages. The only deity that has manifested, in a rather impersonal way, is the Silver Flame. The Silver Flame is said to have entered Eberron eons ago when most of the world's population of couatls sacrificed themselves to engulf the capital of the demons in silver fire (positive energy). The Silver Flame is a relatively new religion that has both a good rap (for being genuinely Lawful Good) and a bad rap (for producing a crop of murderous crusades and having some thoroughly corrupt clerics).

6. Dragonshards: Siberys Dragonshards fall from the ring of Siberys. Eberron Dragonshards are found in the soil, while Khyber Dragonshards come from deep subterranean caverns (Khyber = Underdark).

Siberys shards are usually used as Dragonmark amplifiers; Eberron shards are general magic amplifies (wand tips, spell storing devices, etc); Khyber shards are used for elemental and outsider binding.

7. Cosmology: Faerun's cosmology is a Great Tree, similar to the Norse Yggdrassil. Eberron's is best represented by an orrerry, with the various planes orbiting around Eberron, the material plane. As the planes approach Eberron (a state called "coterminous"), their influence on the material plane increases.

Two planes have been sundered from Eberron on a long-term basis---Dal Quor (the realm of dreams, which mortals visit when sleeping), and Xoriat (the realm of madness, equivalent of the Far Realm). Dal Quor is permanently at its "far" state, if I'm not mistaken, while Xoriat was shot to its "far" state and will take a very long time to return to its coterminous state.

Faerun's planes are the realms of gods; in Eberron they represent ideas. Chaos, dreams, madness, the elements, conflict, light, darkness, and death.

[Mr.Bookworm]

PLANES

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/e/e3/Cosmology.jpg

That's the map, if you're curious.

Also, thirteen is the arc number of Eberron. Or, more specifically, thirteen with one or more being lost or special in some way (popular theory holds this as being a rather bad pun). There are thirteen dragonmarks, with one being erased, there are thirteen outer planes, with one being held permanently apart from Eberron, there are thirteen dragonmarked houses, with one having split apart, there were originally thirteen gods of the Sovereign Host (four of them were kicked out and now are part of the Dark Six), and so on and so forth.

[FoE]

It's uncertain that the gods even exist. And the Silver Flame is not even a deity; the Church is more like a social movement than anything. Clerics and paladins in Eberron are empowered through faith, but that doesn't mean they neccesarily get their nifty powers from the gods ...

The three Dragons could be said to be gods, but in truth, god seems to be too small a word.

Xoriat remains completely separated from Eberron, but only as long as the seals maintained by the Gatekeepers remain in place.

[Kyeudo]

Ok, this is just getting silly. :smallannoyed:

Morty. You believe FR is a more enjoyable setting, but concede that it is a matter of personal taste, yes? Good.

Samb. You believe Eberron to be a more enjoyable setting, but accept that it is a matter of personal taste, correct? Wonderful.

Faerun is classic. Eberron is innovative. Everyone in agreement, right?

I'm sorry, but from my perspective, it seems like you're both arguing over nothing at this point. You've both made your points. Can't you let it go now? :smallfrown: :smallwink:

But but but . . . (http://xkcd.com/386/)

[Samb]

I'm not sure if I can recommend playyer guild or explorer's guild to Eberron as I don't have either one but when I flipped through them it seemed like stuff i could find in ECS. If anyone has any input I'd like to hear from you.

[Kyeudo]

Explorer's guide has some useful stuff for players and DMs alike, but Player's Guide is like a quick primer on Eberron for someone who doesn't want to read the full ECS. Some useful stuff, but not much crunch.

[AslanCross]

It's uncertain that the gods even exist. And the Silver Flame is not even a deity; the Church is more like a social movement than anything. Clerics and paladins in Eberron are empowered through faith, but that doesn't mean they neccesarily get their nifty powers from the gods ...

The three Dragons could be said to be gods, but in truth, god seems to be too small a word.

Xoriat remains completely separated from Eberron, but only as long as the seals maintained by the Gatekeepers remain in place.

Both the ECS and FoE use the term "god" to describe the Silver Flame. The latter book clearly says the Silver Flame is a deity and is believed by its church to be the perfector of Eberron and its Last God; the manifestation in the center of the Cathedral, however, is NOT the Silver Flame.
They believe that when they die, if their souls are found pure enough, they become part of the Silver Flame that will one day come and cleanse Eberron completely. That certainly does not simply sound like a "let's be good, guys" social movement to me.

The ECS also says that Xoriat's connection was not completely severed as Dal Quor's was. It was sent to its furthest point, but is sure to come back one day. (ECS, p. 99)


In any case, Explorer's Handbook does have some good material in it. Player's Guide to Eberron isn't really essential. It's mostly fluff. If you have the ECS and the other "of Eberron" books, you don't need it.

[Salt_Crow]

The most tangible divinity that Eberron has would be the Undying Court. The Ascendant Councillor (ECS) seems have many features of having a Diving Rank of 0, save epic DR or movement speed as such.

[AslanCross]

The most tangible divinity that Eberron has would be the Undying Court. The Ascendant Councillor (ECS) seems have many features of having a Diving Rank of 0, save epic DR or movement speed as such.

Well, given that the Undying Court is ancestor worship with the ancestors still being around, that doesn't make them deities any more than the Lord of Blades's clerics worshiping him makes him a deity.

[Fishy]

Races of Eberron has a throwaway line about The Traveller occasionally possessing one of the members of the Cabinet of Faces to make declarations and prophesies and suchlike.

Given that they're all shapeshifters with mind powers, I'm not sure how you would prove this.

And given that it's the Cabinet of Faces, you probably shouldn't believe a word they say about it anyway.

EDIT: Also, the Becoming God unquestionably exists. The Warforged just haven't finished building it yet.

[Athaniar]

EDIT: And is King Kaius being a vampire actually a spoiler or not?

Well, it is in the 4E Eberron Campaign Setting book, so I'd say no. The book also states (if I remember correctly) that the real Kaius III is in Dreadhold. He is most likely Prisoner Deep Fourteen (the Man in the Iron Mask).

[Salt_Crow]

Well, given that the Undying Court is ancestor worship with the ancestors still being around, that doesn't make them deities any more than the Lord of Blades's clerics worshiping him makes him a deity.

True. It could make Daelkyrs and assorted aberrations deities too by that logic :(

[Kaiyanwang]

I found there argument interesting, pointless, but interesting. The only reason i ever had a liking towards FR were the books. Ironically they also ruined it for me once i started reading more of them.


Out of curiosity.. could you explain this? Just to compare personal experiences.. I found a lot of FR books quite inspiring, expecially Underdark, Shining South, Magic of Faerun and Lost Empires..

[Bayar]

Out of curiosity.. could you explain this? Just to compare personal experiences.. I found a lot of FR books quite inspiring, expecially Underdark, Shining South, Magic of Faerun and Lost Empires..

He probably was refering to the story books...

[Talya]

Eberron feels to me like a much more mature game, with the "shades of grey" mentality, and more intricate webs of interactions between entitites and organizations.

It is my experience that many of those who claim they prefer a setting with "shades of grey" actually just want to be able to act as they choose unrestricted by the alignment system. "Yes, I'm on a genocidal crusade to slaughter all elves. But I'm not a bad guy!" Faerun has all shades of alignment, it just more clearly defines them.

[Samb]

It is my experience that many of those who claim they prefer a setting with "shades of grey" actually just want to be able to act as they choose unrestricted by the alignment system. "Yes, I'm on a genocidal crusade to slaughter all elves. But I'm not a bad guy!" Faerun has all shades of alignment, it just more clearly defines them.

That prolly why it is for more mature groups. Monster manual is filled with awesome good mobs that you never fight. Now you could, especially the dragons. A demon could help you and you can't discount him just because he is evil. In my opinion Hardline alignment is what causes knight-Templars and stupid evil. People are too rigid in how they interpurt alignment making them act like idiots.

[Kaiyanwang]

That prolly why it is for more mature groups. Monster manual is filled with awesome good mobs that you never fight. Now you could, especially the dragons.

This always made me wonder..

So.. you cannot fight a good monster? maybe because your party is evil, or neutral, or because you have a conflict about an important matter..

Actually, the "good monster" makes the things more interesting. You could be in the condition to fight an angel or a gold dragon for a misunderstanding. And you wouldn't kill him. Would be a different fight.

[Kyeudo]

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) a campaign journal (the second tale) where the group, composed of characters from across the alignment spectrum and played quite logically within their respective alignments, ended up slaying both an angel and a devil along their way to saving the world. When you get a little flexible with your interpretations of alignment, you can do some interesting things.

[Kaiyanwang]

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) a campaign journal (the second tale) where the group, composed of characters from across the alignment spectrum and played quite logically within their respective alignments, ended up slaying both an angel and a devil along their way to saving the world. When you get a little flexible with your interpretations of alignment, you can do some interesting things.

Could we call it a "neutral" campaign? A la Mordenkainen, if you allow me..

[dragonfan6490]

As far as the shades of gray alignment in Eberon goes, it is one of my favorite aspects of the setting. I've always enjoyed the thought of two paladins who have a misunderstanding be on opposite sides of the battlefield. It just seems more realistic to me.

[wadledo]

As far as the shades of gray alignment in Eberon goes, it is one of my favorite aspects of the setting. I've always enjoyed the thought of two paladins who have a misunderstanding be on opposite sides of the battlefield. It just seems more realistic to me.

...But that's true of Core (no setting, just rules) D&D too.:smallconfused:

[evil-frosty]

Out of curiosity.. could you explain this? Just to compare personal experiences.. I found a lot of FR books quite inspiring, expecially Underdark, Shining South, Magic of Faerun and Lost Empires..

I was referring to the novels. The newer R.A Salvatore. Orc King was ok but over all after the drow series the whole Drizzt line went down. Then i read a few books by Ed Greenwood and he focused on a different part then what i like he was more about the political intrigue and referred to a lot of stuff i didnt know bout the setting. Then i believe i read a few books based in Thay and Rashemen and i just plain out didnt like them. Interesting concept but to me not well executed.

Thats my take. Also i tried reading one Eberron book and i didnt like it but then again i didnt know anything bout the setting beyond it was a different one. So i was rather confused on some points.

Also thanks for the information it has been wonderfully helpful.

[Salt_Crow]

Yeah, although I'm an Eberron fanboy, I find the theme of "Shade of Grey" rather overrated. It has been used by many DMs in the past regardless of settings anyways.

What I really like about Eberron is its power level. When I play an Eberron campaign, I feel like my character indeed is in the centre of the plot, the one whose decision really matters and is the mover and the shaker of the world regardless of his present power level.

Faerun campaigns, on the other hand, is too high-powered for my taste. There's one too many rigidly-defined NPCs with decades of history all written out, more often than not having twice as many levels as average characters (10-15 ish). Unless my character was an epic-level character, I didn't feel like I was doing my part in shaping the world if at all. One of many reasons why I don't normally bring the Lords of Dust or Argonessen into my campaigns :)

But there are good things about Faerun too. The setting is so richly filled with classic hero myths and legends that under the right circumstances (and good DM storytelling) I felt like I was really interacting with the world, meeting the actual "Big Bosses" whose actions and personalities served to inspire the characters and players alike. If it was set in Eberron, much of plots would likely be wild guessworks and endless games of intrigue and espionage, which, while having their own charms, made me feel too emburdened with the sense of urgency and mystery that tired me out at times.


So in conclusion, I'd describe the difference between to campaign settings as this: Eberron is like writing your own fairytale/s, playing the hero/ine and shaping the story as you go along. Playing Faerun is like following the classic stories of old, meeting the NPCs you are so familiar with and expanding upon the rich abundance of heroism and valour.